political commentator * author * publisher * bookseller * radio presenter * blogger * Conservative candidate * former lobbyist * Jack Russell owner * West Ham United fanatic * Email iain AT iaindale DOT com
Thursday, March 26, 2009
The Draper/Guido Video (If You Can Bear It)
Here's the 5 minute spat between Derek Draper and Guido on the Daily Politics. Dear. Oh. Dear. Hardly enhanced the reputation of political blogging, did it? If I were a viewer who had never looked at a political blog before I certainly wouldn't be rushing to my computer now. As my colleague at Total Politics has just said: "It was like two little kids arguing in the playground."
UPDATE: What I should have said when I wrote this before rushing out for lunch, is that I am grateful to Guido for defending my honour!
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Just put 'em in a cage, and sort it out the old-fashioned way.
It could have been a brilliant, sparkling debate. It was sadly disappointing.
It was a very poor performance from both. To be fair Brillo slapped Draper down a few times for wittering but I did expect a better performance from Guido. His hands were tied of course if you read his blog this morning.
For me the best comment was Dollys within a minute of the segment starting. "We publish every year". How long has LabourList been going? Then within seconds, "well we haven't published it yet". Which indicates that they haven't been going for a full year and also makes the first statement disingenuous.
I agree neither of them came out well, but that was never likely anyway.
Guido should have kept his ID secret. This came across like two very non-metrosexual Londoners having a tiff.
No glamour at all.
I agree Iain. The wider pubic would have been turned off. I have just made comments similar to yours.
This was my first experience of Draper. What an odious little prat he turns out to be. Hectoring and haranguing all and sundry is not the way to conduct oneself.
How he ever pulled a stunner like Kate Garraway is beyond my ken. However, if he can do that then there is hope for us all!
Like Guido's T-shirt, though.
Agreed that it wasn't particularly becoming of either of them but I see you have not commented on Guido sticking up for you. What is your side of the story? Did you have dinner with Draper? Do you think he was put up to the Carol Thatcher furore?
Guido's a bit porky isn't he?
Like his fellow Irishman, Terry Wogan, Guido doesn't seem to come across at all well on TV.
Moral: Wogan should stick to radio and Guido to blogging.
I can't disagree more with every commenter or you, Iain. Paul Staines came across just about contolled whilst Dolly's behaviour and appearance was of an unkempt, sot of a layabout. As the face of Labour in this piece he was an unmitigated disaster.
Furthermore, blogging is about not controlling, hence it's alienation from the MSM and from Labour.
That bloggers and TV don't get on is a plus for me.
The general viewer wouldn't have learned much - but were they ever going to ?
IMHO, Guido had nothing to lose today. He's not an extremely popular blogger because he's a squeaky clean operator. His readers don't give a toss about who he is chez nous.
Mr Draper had a lot to lose - again. He spends a quite bizarre amount of time getting both himself and his wife covered in the MSM. I can't imagine this did his profile any good at all [again].
I expected him to cream Guido, but he actually came over as a complete prick.
And Brillo was unexpectedly angry with him in a way I haven't seen before. Ha.
wv prove (can't wait to see the McBride memo)
Urgh, not good.
Draper is awful! All that aggressive finger-pointing, the bolshie slouch, the chippy whine in his voice.
Guido did not come across too well either, to be honest.
The whole thing seemed very cliquey.
The tone was set from the start, with Dolly kicking it off.
Though that t-shirt was a nice wind up ......
I think you're wrong there Ian.
At least both Dolly and Guido were passionate. I don't know about you but I'm rather sick of the mixture of disingenuos half truths and statements of the bleeding obvious that pass for live debate.
Given that he's not stupid Draper came across really badly I thought. An away win for Mr Fawkes.
P.S. Didn't you just love Guido's Tshirt?
I watched the Daily Politics today and found Mr Draper’s performance painful to watch. He filibustered and blathered on, attacking, being aggresive, shouting down everyone who disagreed with him. He just made himself look extremely foolish. He must have been rattled. Congratulations to you Guido, he made a far better impression than him. I loved it when Andrew O’Neill told Draper to ‘SHUT UP.’ Classic.
Between them they represent the dark-side: hidden-agenda blogging.
This showdown was never going to put political bloggers in a positive light.
Iain, We were definitely nicer to each other, and possibly less up ourselves when we were on.... Not as controversial though.
A BBC stitch up just letting Draper have two thirds of the say.
I agree Iain and I made a similar point on your previous thread to that effect.
It ironically came across as no different to the out-of-touch 'Westminster village' that they were both trying to 'be different from'
A School Playground spat at best.
BBC stitch up? naah.
Paul's just not very good on TV. He's not fast enough, he's not sharp enough and he shuldn't have worn that t-shirt, no matter how witty it was because it takes a lot of effort to make Derek look professional but Paul managed it, looking like a fat grad student, not the angry vox populi he dreams of being...
I don't think Derek did blogging any favours,and he certainly annoyed Neil in being aggressive but he totally ran over Staines. That said, I can't imagine why anyone who didn't know who Iain Dale or Damian McBride were would care in the slightest.
I didn't get that impression. Draper was told to "shut up" a couple of times by the hosts.
Draper astonished me - how did he ever get to be a Labour spin doctor? At least Alastair Campbell can back up what he says.
Guido...didn't expect anything else to be honest. He was controlled at least.
I hadn't seen Dolly on TV before and it confirmed what everyone on Guido, here and other sites had said about him - a complete twat.
His line about Guido being bankrupt and someone how being able to start a blog showed both the stupidity of Dolly (I mean, even you Iain use Blogger!) and how the BBC gave Dolly too much time to talk crap.
Bloody idiot, shame Berkeley wasn't mentioned as I'd have loved to see Dolly explain that one, or explode with rage.
I thought Guido was good whilst Draper was pathetic, interrupting, talking over people and whining all the time. In the circumstances Guido acquitted himself well.
That small segment of the Total Politics Show does not give a full view of what went on. Draper was allowed to reign throughout the programme (why? - it smacks of bias). His slovenly hectoring was non-stop.
Guido did good!
Guido wasn't magnificent, but it's understandable given what strictures he was under; what a shame. That said, Draper was infinitely worse - alternately wheedling and bombastic, and for a master of spin, he doesn't dissemble well. I don't know how Draper's wife manages prolonged exposure to him; excruciatingly embarrassing stuff, and I *really* wish someone would give him a good scrub.
Draper was hectoring everybody before Paul even got on set-
Paul was very restrained- I would not have been !
I think Dolly was always going to turn this into a playground fight.
TV perhaps isn't Guido's medium (though again liked the T shirt), but Dolly is getting more and more desperate.
Surely there is someone in the Labour bunker who can see what damage is being done to what's left of their credibility ?
It's all early days. As time progresses we will have more tv encounters between bloggers of different political persuasions and some will get the hang of the medium whilst others will only shine via the written word on their blogs.
The important thing about today was the further recognition by the MSM that the blogosphere, and the internet, are coming up fast behind the MSM in the political debate process.
The second important point about the programme was a further public confirmation that Dolly Draper is a greasy little hoon.
I don't think there is any doubt that the internet will dominate the media at the next general election.
I just get the feeling that the reaon bloggers get so much attention from the politicians is that they are the only people paying them ANY attention at all.
There must be something between blogging every 4 hours and voting every 4 years that people will pay attention to.
I think for the unemployed/retired/armchair politicians watching the Daily Politics show today they would have been unimpressed by the bickering of the two bloggers.
However, they would have been more aggravated by the "one that looked like an unshaven tramp" a little more.
The Berkeley T-Shirt was an in-joke that wouldn't have got the recognition outside of the blogosphere but I disagree with Hopi that it would have backfired.
However, for someone to be told to "shut up" and have their microphone turned down by Andrew would be noticed.
Derek did himself no favours whatsoever whereas Guido appeared the more moderate.
For those that were concentrating, the putdown by Paul to Derek regarding the difficulty of moderation:
"If you had a high traffic site, which you don't..."
hit Derek hard as you can see from my blog.
No matter the argument, the socialist always shouts down the oppoition =(truth) every argument on T.V. or Radio, if there are two or more people being interviewed the socialist always talks over so the truth can not be listened to.
The socialist and truth are never found in the same room!
A kind commentator on another thread pointed me to this entertaining poll in the Sunday Times.
I missed it completely so apols if it's a retread for today's audience.
Unite members prefer Cameron
Clearly Mr Draper's sponsors don't seem to agree with his editorial line.
I think Guido came out of it slightly better today, although that isn't saying much about either.
Derek Draper = fat, ugly hoon.
If you asked me they need to smarten up their appearance a bit. They were after all on a prime time professional political debating programme!
In terms of the substance very little. I'm not sure the BBC did the right thing having them both on they should have done it as a seperate running maybe having GUido on with someone else one day, and Draper on with another one another day.
Indeed he did defend you and asked Draper to apologise. The man DD has a knack of labelling virtually everryone as a racist. Have you seen Labour List, where DD is haing a go at Guido personally? Guido is just having a go at Draper's US academic record. Bit schoolboyish but it will be interesting to see who blinks first.
Paul Staines wasn't brilliant, but he certainly had the best of it. The more Draper talked the worse he appeared. Let's see more of him, it will hammer a few more nails into the labour coffin.
Yes, Drippy is well-suited as the face of ZaNu Labour - detached from reality, arrogant, incompetent and disingenuous.
The Daily Politics are really scraping the barrel with their choice of guest, recently. These 2 today were terrible, but not as bad as that idiot, Matthew Wright.
It was not the finest debate by any means.
Definitely both need to learn more about appearance.
However I did think Guido just looked like he spends far too much time in front of a computer, whilst Draper looked like someone you would not like to meet in a dark alley late at night.
Neither Guido nor Draper came out well today, both seemed a bit too bedroom coder geeky types to play well in the MSM. Neither will care though because Draper obviously has a pathological inability to be embarrassed and Guido because he was there to settle a score with Draper and he was never there to carve a career for himself as a main stream political pundit!!
That aside Draper really is a sorry shower of s***. The chippyness and fragility of this mans ego really came through in this interview.
Draper's general demeanour could be explained by some kind of inadequacy complex.
BTW did he get the "psychiatrist" goggles free with the MA or did he go to Specsavers!
Iain, I am so glad that you have added that you are grateful to Guido for defending your honour. When I first read your post on this topic I was disturbed by the fact that you seemed to be criticising Guido when he had gone out of his way to speak up for you. In fact it disturbed me so much that I made my very first blog post (anywhere) in order to support Guido.
Thanks for adding your softer words in his favour. Guido did a darn good job in difficult circumstances.
Hopisen is right. But it depends what you think blogging is for and where it is going. Draper looks and acts like a 70’s student union throwback. Gawd, he annoys me. All sanctimony and total wrongheadedness. But I don’t reckon Mr Fawkes showed himself up in his best light. Whilst we all understand the T shirt joke no non political blogger or non politico will. Perhaps Guido was intentionally appealing to that audience and ignoring the ‘ordinary viewer? I saw Mr Montgomerie of Conservativehome on telly somewhere recently and he looked and sounded very smart. He looked a credible challenger to the MSM, but not so Mr F. Hopisen remarked that he does not think on his feet well, or seemed not to. I would agree. He paused to collect his thoughts and Draper just kept on keeping on. I think Neil recognised this which is why he told Draper to shut up.
The Hannan video is, I think, a defining moment. The way it has been spread around has forced the MSM to look at it. They completely misjudged it as non news. Good Grief chaps! Are you completely out of touch as to how much Brown is loathed and despised. Millions have been begging for someone to get this chance and tell the bugger just exactly what a complete arse he is. We have shared in massive vicarious pleasure as Hannan said what millions, all over the world, want to say. It’s the common man moment. An historian whose name presently escapes named the 20th Century as the age of the common man and so it was. Trouble is a lot of charlatans and mountebanks worked out how to manipulate this by the use of propaganda as they had control of the media. In the 21st Century they don’t. The media is now under the control of the common man. Or rather it swings its agenda to follow the common man’s wishes. And the common man is no longer ignorant. He can’t be kept in ignorance. The interweb has seen to that. Knowledge is power. Learning is even more powerful. And the collective wisdom of the crowd is even more so. Hannan’s video was like a Trafalgar Square rally in the 30’s. Bevan would have understood its power.
What GF, and Dale and others have to do is build on this, and they will. They are not ‘right’ wing in the traditional lefty/righty way. They are now freedom/statism. This is a much better message. And it totally neutralises New Labour. In their heart of hearts no-one trusts the state, even when their party is in power
And this is why Draper is NBG. He is Statist. Everyone that challenges him is not Tory or Right wing as he would have it. Those that disagree with him are for freedom, and that is unchallengeable and far easier to explain than Toryism or whatever.
Draper should be nailed for lying about the "line by line rebuttal" of Hannan's speech on LabourList. It was nonsense - like everything else he said. There won't ever be a line by line rebuttal of Hannan's speech, because it is Fiske proof. It was its razor sharp accuracy that has made the speech such a phenomenon.
I have to agree with Hopi Sen on this one. Draper ranted the argument and shaded a rancid near stalemate. It was a high energy shouty fillibuster. I so wanted Guido to argue and win on the proposition that non state sponsored political blogging is more vital and important than the sort of blog that has a political parties hand up the back working the teeth. Guido lost. He just didn't get a chance to say much of anything that worked.
Guido seems to have sort of prepared the questions and statements he wanted to make but neglected the essential preparation for the freewheeling debate of trying to work out quick and good answers to the most obvious lines of enemy attack.
For Draper who has form for going ad hominem these were reliably predictable as "Your commenters are racist" "Your were a bankrupt" "Your finances are obscure." Draper had clearly prepared for the "You smeared Iain" line and for most variants of the "You're a Labour puppet" line. It showed. Should Guido ever go for a re-match he needs to
a) Dress better
b) Sit better
c) Spend your time on preparing your defences and some neat short questions rather than a grand gesture attack video with a bad sound track.
d) Prep with someone with some media savvy.
If you are going to take on the Drapers of this world, you need to do more than wound them. You need to leave them bleeding and destroyed in the first two questions. Anything more than that and you end up with, at best, a shouty stalemate. Thats TV. On a blog, Guido slays, in a studio Draper shades it.
I like Guidos blog and I find Draper pretty repulsive but I have to tell it like it is. Draper won on points and Guido didn't do the prep he should have.
I agree with Nightjack. I did watch the "event" and the did other things this PM. My thought then, as now, is that you don't pick a fight with a pig. The pig will enjoy it and you will end up covered in shit.
Guido was unwise to accept the invitation. He had nothing to gain and Draper was given more credibility than he deserved.
Guido is a brilliant blogger but a very poor broadcaster. He should stick to the former and give up the latter.
At least we now know why he was so keen previously to be interviewed in shadow.
Dolly came over as expected. A student socialist who has no point of view that is correct other than his own. Guido didnt stand much of a chance. I was pleased that Neil told Dolly to shut up though!
Those that say Guido's T-shirt wouldnt be understood by non-political blogwatchers, I agree. However, how many non political people that are diffent to saddoes like us would watch a programme like this at this time of day??? (I am on shifts so I dont normally get to watch it!!)
Guido needs to do more on TV to get used to it. Dolly just needs to grow up.
Let's be clear about this. The BBC has not linked to Hannan's speech. They have linked to a little clip from the speech shown on the DP followed by the Guido/Draper interview. Last word goes to Draper asserting the speech is all wrong and has been refuted line by line on LabourList. This of course is a downright lie. A lie the BBC is keen to perpetrate. This is the BBC doing damage limitation and spin. This is not the BBC renouncing bias.
Oscar Miller you are correct. Go to Guido's site and see what the BBC refused to allow Guido to show.
Im beginning to wonder whether the BBC were hoping to stitch up Guido but Dolly completely messed up himself!
Derek came across as a winging twat. Paul remained calm in situations that lesser men would have flipped. Andrew was about to lamp Draper. The event was a bit incestuous, but then again it was set up to be and I would challenge anyone else to try and do better in all honesty.
Although Paul won the fight, I think in a way Draper won the battle - Daily Politics is unlikely to invite Bloggers back in a hurry. Thus, the blogosphere is kept away from the rather too cosy Daily Politics ecosphere.
However, the boggers will win the war.
Of course people, bloggers, like Guido and his followers and some people who follow this blog are always going on at tory spokesmen on TV.
Well as we see from Guido (Stains) its not that easy.
Dolly is a prat so it does not really matter, but when you have an interviewer (maybe 2) and at least one opponent trying to trip you up and get you to talk about something you do not want to - well its not so easy is it?
Paul came over as a person who was in the right but irritated that the office idiot didn't get the points he was making.
Andrew nearly threw his chair at Draper and as for Draper? For a bizarre split second I thought: "This is a cleverly written piece of satire and Ben Elton is playing the part of Draper. It was like watching the Labour student politicians back in the old days when I was at college! Hilarious!
By the way, thanks to the Guido Fawkes Blog and the Crown Blog, I have placed the Guido Stateside and debate video in the same story:
Draper loses by two falls
Thatsnews said "Andrew [Neil] nearly threw his chair at Draper..."
I'd happily pay the licence fee if I got to see that.
For those who are interested here are the results for page hits for Hits recorded for the relevant websites:
Order-Order 6,093 per day
Iain Dale 4,027 per day
Labourlist 524 per day
Gofourth 108 per day
The above results are from Web Valuer.org
So Guido was entirely correct about Draper's site, when measured against Order-Order and Iain dale.
Grim Reaper, I'd buy two licenses just to see that, I think!
Or even learn to spell!
And I bet that half of those hits for Laboulist are people from Guido's or Iain's sites just going over for some gratuitous fun
I agree, Titus. That's why I stopped visiting Labourlist. Well, that and it was far too tedious to bother with.
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