Wednesday, February 20, 2008

Do Al Qaeda Want McCain To Win?

Yes, according to BBC America Correspondent Justin Webb. He writes on his blog today...

Islamic terrorists want war. They want suffering - among others and their own people alike. They would surely surmise that McCain will give them what they want. Bin Laden himself intervened with what many thought was the effect of keeping President Bush in power in 2004 with that weird tape just before the poll. I think al-Qaeda would back McCain - that is not an argument for or against America backing him, but it seems to me that the vague assumption that the terrorists would back a lefty is lazy thinking...


Quite an astonishing thing for a BBC reporter to say, even on his own blog.

Hattip Centre Right.com

47 comments:

canvas said...

Obama campaign spokesman Bill Burton:

"John McCain’s remarks tonight shows why he’s offering nothing more than a third term of George Bush’s policies – more fear-mongering, more than a century of war in Iraq, and more budget-busting tax cuts for the wealthiest few at the expense of hardworking Americans. The reason that Barack Obama is attracting Democrats, Independents, and Republicans to his cause is because he’s offering real change that will end this war, finish the fight against al Qaeda, restore our standing in the world, and rebuild our economy for the struggling middle-class."

They are going to get Obama. The writing is on the wall. Go Obama!

Henry Rogers said...

What a fatuous suggestion. Typical BBC appeaser. Why should we pay a licence fee to support that sort of thing!

Anonymous said...

Don't diss Justin Webb - he is an absolutely excellent blogger and journalist who is providing by far and away the best coverage of the US elections for my money. And he is often being accused on the blog of being anti-Obama, an accusation he rejects as he tries very hard to be even-handed in his reporting.

He also tries very hard to respond to readers' questions and interact with his readership. Something you could learn from. If you actually read his posts regularly and, hey, properly, you would see he is not making any kind of argument about who would be tougher on terror.

Merely that one cannot assume what a terrorist organisation would be preferring in terms of a strategy from a US president. So don't you even dare make the feeble, lazy and trite assumption that Justin Webb is biased based on your superficial and facile analysis of what he has written.

He is also willing to tread on the risky territory of US obsession with fundamentalism, both Christian and Islamic, and for that brave stance he deserves more support than your brickbats. My final point would be to very much recommend that you 'Don't knock it, until you've tried it'...

Anonymous said...

What your rather facile post fails to point out is that :-

1/ Webb's post is a response to, and analysis of, a post made by that well known socialist radical William Rees-Mogg. No doubt Jacob and Annunziata are even as we speak now attending a meeting of the Hampstead liberati to organise a protest against ID Cards and to campaign for higher rates of Inheritance Tax.

2/ If you read the whole article, you could just as easily say that he is dissing Barack Obama, by the suggestion that he might not be as willing to take on the terrorists.

If you are going to shout down the bloggers who are trying to debate the difficult topics, then we may end with a bland, lifestyley, grey, middle-of-the-road, don't shake the tree blog - the same as yours..

Rohan said...

What a ridiculous statement. al-Qaeda is an umbrella term - it means the base. Under it there are a host of organisations scattered across the globe pursuing a broadly Islamist agenda. There is no central organisation. No Army Council as the PIRA had for instance. So how can we ever know what such a diffuse group of groups thinks? What cock.

Anonymous said...

Iain, you are just jealous because his page views and posting figures are treble what yours are these days..

And he gets views from across the world, from African and Asian readers.

Mind you, you've got Verity, so that is some small consolation...

Johnny Norfolk said...

The BBC is anti republican, we all know it and it should report the news and not distort it as it does to its left wing agenda.

Anonymous said...

Sadly your comments and those of others is typical of the thinking of those on the right. Strangely I don't recall much criticism of those - Richard Littlejohn springs to mind - who tried to spin, falsely, that John Kerry was Al-Qaeda's preferred choice.

Personally I don't think Al-Qaeda actually care who the next president is. I just hope whoever it is has a better idea on how to combat the "War on Terror" than the present incumbent.

The Tory Troll said...

Just sounds like common sense to me.

Anonymous said...

just saw you on sky PMQs review and thought you were excellent. top stuff

did you smirk off camera when boulton had to read out the results of the sky poll??

Anonymous said...

Iain, Why don't you link to the Times article by William Rees-Mogg [Mystic Mogg as we affectionately know him..]

This would engender a wider debate about the issue, with the added bonus of pushing these boys up the Google page ranking algorithm, which is surely the main reason you bloggers write controversial posts anyway ?

Tone made me do it - he's a bad influence said...

canvas
this is an ad for coke from 1971 (you sound too young to remember it):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8H5263jCGg

This ad is what obama's campaign is based on.

Do you really think the selection of the most powerful man in history should be based on emoting in this way?

If you lived through 10 years of Blair how can you be fooled again?

It beggars belief it really does.

Anonymous said...

Trying to inject some light-hearted relief into the situation...

Q/ Why is Gordon Brown like Osama bin Laden ??

A/ Neither is meeting with the US Presidential candidates, because they know they can't influence the results and they both will have to work with whoever gets elected...

Garry said...

While knowing that a sensible conversation about counter-terrorism strategies is probably not possible here, let's give it a go anyway. Ever the optimist...

Webb made a point about what Islamic terrorists want. He rightly noted that the terrorists want the people they claim to represent to suffer at the hands of the US. That is a part of the reason why they attack the US; precisely to provoke a reaction. This reaction is what they feed off to generate new recruits and, in their mind, achieve some critical mass of popular support at some point. Webb making this point, which highlights the fact that these people are extremely callous about those they claim to be fighting for, should not be controversial.

Webb then pointed out that McCain is more likely to give them the sort of reaction they want. This again seems uncontroversial given his stated positions on foreign policy.

So, could you explain what exactly you object to please, Iain? It's not Justin Webb's fault you wrote a particularly silly piece attacking the BBC earlier today and another silly post probably isn't going to help anyway.

canvas said...

Dear Tone Made Me Do it -

When Obama beomes the next US President - and he will - the entire world will know the that the disastrous Bush/Blair/Brown policies of the last eight years have ended.

verity said...

I couldn't be bothered to read through all the troll, drooling lefty boilerplate.

I commend people to reread Rohan's comments. Al-Qaeda isn't a club where people drop in and meet for a cozy chat and a lovely glass of mint tea.

Webb's post is ill-informed rubbish. I read Ree-Mogg's original article and was astounded.

Radical jihadis don't give a monkey's who's in the White House. They are not looking for concessions. They are fighting for conquests.

Tone Made Me Do It - Agreed. Kumbaya from Obama. Barf. Al Qaeda doesn't give a rat's arse who's in charge.

Matthew said...

Why is it so astonishing? It's not an unreasonable argument. You might not agree with it, but so what? Tell us why you think he's wrong. Yours is supposed to be the intelligent Tory blog - don't assume everyone is a knee-jerk hawk.

strapworld said...

This is a BBC employee. He should be a-political. I think it is quite outrageous. I am going to complain. I do hope you and everyone that agrees complains.

In fact this should be raised in the House of Commons. It is getting involved directly in another countries politics.

He should be sacked.

I will not, though, hold my breath.

sick of pc said...

Obama is the poster boy for the BBC/Guardian/Indie and the rest of the PC establishment in the UK. They will be devastated when McCain thrashes him.

verity said...

"Tell us why you think he's wrong. Yours is supposed to be the intelligent Tory blog - don't assume everyone is a knee-jerk hawk."

Matthew, when did Iain appoint you an editorial advisor? I don't recall reading about it.

Anonymous said...

Garry

You look very much like someone who's foot I ran over on Union Street, Aberdeen, in January.

I have a policy, when driving in my 4x4 of stopping for horses, but not for moronic hoodies.

Was it you?

I do hope so.

Anonymous said...

Iain, your post is slightly out of context. As has been said the Rees-Mogg article and discussions in the last week in the US (perhaps inspired by the right) that Obama is the candidate al-Qaeda most want. This seems like a classic Rove-like "with us or against us" political tactic. In a purely rhetorical basis Justin Webb pointed out that the case can be made that al-Qaeda would want McCain.

Garry said...

Heh. What did I say about a sensible conversation?

The "hoodie" photo, actually the reaction it provokes in some people, is my wee joke and the anonymous comment above is one of the very best. I'm ever so glad that Iain's comment rules are, er, flexible enough for him to decide to publish it.

It's off topic, but it'd be interesting to hear Iain's view of "hoodies". Cameron was misrepresented with the whole "hug a hoodie" thing but I'm sort of hoping that the Tory party don't generally advocate running them over.

Anyway, I really would like to hear what Iain's complaint is with what Justin Webb's post.

Yak40 said...

Tone Made Me Do It ...

Excellent, Obamarama encapsulated !

I remember that commercial very well, thanks for posting the link.

Yak40 said...

Barack Obama is attracting ... to his cause .. because he’s offering real change that will end this war, finish the fight against al Qaeda ..

Really ? Just how does he propose to finish the fight against AlQ ? Surrender ? Appease them ? Adopt their dark ages religion ?

Obama has yet to offer anything other than the usual campaign trail platitudes, everyone says they'll change Washington blah blah.

The guy has yet to prove he's anything other than an empty suit with a good speechwriter.

P.S. I'm far from wealthy and I found Bush's tax cuts most welcome, thank you.

Tim J said...

The reason that Webb is, um, brave to say something quite so inflammatory as "John McCain would be Al-Qaeda's choice" is that, even though it was positioned within a nuanced and argued post, it risks forever being ripped out of context. On its own it is an extraordinary statement.

Incidentally, one of the various anonymouses who say it is false that John Kerry was AQ's preferred choice last time seem to be disagreeing with Kerry himself who says that it was the Bin Laden video that more or less endorsed Kerry that finished him off.

Verity said...

Given that he's a muslim himself, Obamarama would accord them concessions - although he would be frightened of going too far. Concessions are always helpful to the islamics, because it is one more small step forward to world domination of their dingbat cult, but what the islamics are looking for is world domination. That's what it tells them to do in their koran.

I keep saying this, but it doesn't seem to sink in: islamics believe everyone was born muslim, because that is the natural nature of things. Like dusk and daybreak. It just is.

That is why they call inadequates who sign onto their religion "reverts" rather than "converts". You were born muslim because that is the way of the universe, you left, but now you have reverted. It is their diety's will that the entire world "revert".

Obama is a muslim, as was his father. This is not a safe pair of hands.

Quite apart from the islamic issue, if he gets in with his paper thin resumé and 100% lack of experience except as a state senator, the US Congress will swallow him whole. All his fuzzy-wuzzy kumbaya intentions will be nothing more than roughage.

David Lindsay said...

Apologies for not linking to you when you were linking to me, Iain. Duly rectified.

Anyway, John McCain may have had a crass outburst, but would he really bomb Iran? Hardened old veterans like the decorated Jacques Chirac know better than to go around shooting up the world. That's done by draft dodgers like Clinton and Bush. So all eyes are now on Barack Obama's choice of running mate.

It says a great deal for Obama that he is supported by Senator Jim Webb of Virginia. ow that, right there on the Potomac, Obama has proved his ability to bring on board the women, Latinos and white working-class people who had previously rallied to Billary, he should crown that achievement by announcing now that his Vice-Presidential nominee would be, if not John Edwards, then Jim Webb.

Indeed, since the supporters of Edwards will vote for Obama anyway, he might well find even more useful the man who staunchly opposes the Iraq War from the perspective of Reagan's old Navy Secretary (and a continuing advocate of re-building the US Navy), the economic populist who wrote 'How We Scotch-Irish Built America'.

If McCain picks Huckabee, then this might not matter. But if he picks Giuliani or Lieberman, then it certainly will.

verity said...

We already know that Obamarama's a liar. Like Tony Blair. And he's empty - save of personal ambition. Like Tony Blair. At least his wife is slender and stylish, though, so that does put some blue sky between him and Tony Blair.

The Remittance Man said...

Actually I tend to agree with Anon@ 8:28, or at least his second para.

From the perspective of OBL and his chums the difference between Republican and Democrat (or socialist and conservative) is one of infinitessimal degree.

At different times one or the other may be preferable for some tactical reason, but strategically, until everyone in the West has reverted to the Middle Ages, beats his wives and bows eastwards five times a day we are all the enemy. Where we put our little exes on the ballot paper counts for two sixteenths of Sweet Fanny Adams.

verity said...

Remittance Man - Quite.

Al-Qaeda is not looking for a concession here and there and looking for the politician most likely to give it to them.

They are looking for total conquest and converting the world to islam for allah, for thus the koran commands them.

Every single tiny concession they get is only a thin end of another wedge - not ends in themselves. Concedssions are just little engines driving the programme forward.

Malcolm Redfellow said...

The dogs (above) have yapped: the caravan has moved on.

Seems to me that McCain has other problems: he's about to be swift-boated for his sex life. The New York Times piece (gleefully recycled by yesterday's Telegraph) on his alleged (and denied) affair with Vicki Iseman (crazee gal, inappropriate name) is the first shot in what hit him in 2000. Or, alternatively, it's getting the inevitable out in the open.

For those who are pure in heart and mind, or have forgotten, the back story is that, in 1973, McCain returned from five horrific years as a Viet Cong prisoner. His wife, Carol, mother of his three children, had been involved in a motor accident, thrown through the windscreen and seriously injured, on crutches and no longer the svelte item he remembered. In 1979 he met Cindy Hensley, just 25 years old (and 17 years his junior): they became "involved". He married her in May, 1980, just a month after divorcing Carol.

For a real journalistic wrong'un, though. I'd point to Jonathan Freedland in The Guardian. His space-filler (on a prime news-page, no less) standing Obama up against President Matt Santos is a shameless rip from Stateside sources.

canvas said...

Verity, to call Obama a liar is laughable. It's also pathetic that you are still trying to spreading the 'fear factor' about religion. I would suggest that it is you spreading petty lies.

Obama was brilliant in the CNN debate last night. Hillary practically handed it all over to him by the end of the debate. It was if she was saying her goodbyes and thank yous. She's outta there.

Malcolm - If McCain is sleeping with lobbyists then he is in big trouble. If McCain wants to get into bed with George Bush and his dodgy policies then his campaign is doomed from the beginning.

Obama will be the next US President - unless something extraordinary happens before then.

verity said...

Blind, infatuated Canvas - Obama's a liar.

Obama is a muslim.

He is not an apostate, because apostacy attracts capital punishment and I haven't read of a single threat. Hmmm ...

When it was discovered that he has spent his formative childhood years in a madrassah in Indonesia, he said that "madrassah" is just the Indonesian word for "school". He's a liar.

He's a handsome man, well-packaged, unencumbered by political experience, and speaks fluffy, adolescent, indignant nonsense well. But he's empty and he's a liar.

You write: "I would suggest that it is you spreading petty lies."

I suggest you apologise for this statement. In the Rules of this blog, accessible on the bar at the top of the home page, one is required not to abuse fellow commenters.

There is no excuse for intemperate accusations based not on knowledge, but on infatuation.

To drive home the points: Obama said "madrassah" is the Indonesian word for "school". They don't speak Indonesian in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan and madrassah there,and everywhere else, is the word for a hardline religious training ground.

I speak some Bahasa Indonesia, and I know that the word for school is "sekolah". It was rather stupid of him to lie about this, because Indonesia has major oil and in the developing world, that means a large American presence. All the Americans who worked there, and their families - many of them young enough to attend sekolah, know that that was a lie.

verity said...

Re the debate last night, my friend, who hates both of them, said Hillary won on points, although she didn't deliver a knock-out blow.

He also said that at his campaign HQ in his city, Obama has had a gigantic rendering of himself painted on the side of his HQ, posed as Ché. Is there no end to this man's sophisticated political nous? Next, we'll have him decked out in a keffiyah, posed as Lawrence of Arabia.

Chris said...

Verity,

I've been trying to find the source for your claim that "[Obama] said that "madrassah" is just the Indonesian word for "school", but without success. Could you provide me provide me with a link?

I did find this information , on the generally extremely reliable snopes.com.

Insight magazine claimed in a January 2007 article that Barack Obama spent at least four years attending what is variously described as a "madrassa," a "radical Muslim religious school," or a "Muslim seminary" in Indonesia, but CNN has more recently reported that its own investigation found those claims to be false:


[R]eporting by CNN in Jakarta, Indonesia and Washington, D.C., shows the allegations that Obama attended a madrassa to be false. CNN dispatched Senior International Correspondent John Vause to Jakarta to investigate.

He visited the Basuki school, which Obama attended from 1969 to 1971.

"This is a public school. We don't focus on religion," Hardi Priyono, deputy headmaster of the Basuki school, told Vause. "In our daily lives, we try to respect religion, but we don't give preferential treatment."

Vause reported he saw boys and girls dressed in neat school uniforms playing outside the school, while teachers were dressed in Western-style clothes.

"I came here to Barack Obama's elementary school in Jakarta looking for what some are calling an Islamic madrassa ... like the ones that teach hate and violence in Pakistan and Afghanistan," Vause said on the 'Situation Room.' "I've been to those madrassas in Pakistan ... this school is nothing like that."

Vause also interviewed one of Obama's Basuki classmates, Bandug Winadijanto, who claims that not a lot has changed at the school since the two men were pupils. Insight reported that Obama's political opponents believed the school promoted Wahhabism, a fundamentalist form of Islam, "and are seeking to prove it."

"It's not (an) Islamic school. It's general," Winadijanto said. "There is a lot of Christians, Buddhists, also Confucian. ... So that's a mixed school."



The Associated Press reported similarly:


A spokesman for Indonesia's Ministry of Religious Affairs said claims that Obama studied at an Islamic school are groundless.

"SDN Menteng 1 is a public primary school that is open to people of all faiths," said the spokesman, Sutopo, who goes by only one name. "Moreover, he studied earlier at Fransiskus Assisi, which is clearly a Catholic school."

Obama later transferred to SDN Menteng 1 the elite, secular elementary school at the center of the controversy. The school is public but is very competitive and has exceptionally high standards. It is located in one of the most affluent parts of Jakarta and attracts mostly middle- to upper-class students, among them several of former dictator Suharto's grandchildren.

Indonesia is home to several of the most radical Islamic schools in Southeast Asia, some with alleged terrorist links. But Akmad Solichin [the vice principal at SDN Menteng 1], who proudly pointed to a photo of a young Barry Obama, as he was known, said his school is not one of them.



Moreover, a statement released by the Obama campaign affirmed that:


In the past week, many of you have read a now thoroughly-debunked story by Insight Magazine, owned by the Washington Times, which cites unnamed sources close to a political campaign that claim Senator Obama was enrolled for "at least four years" in an Indonesian "Madrassa". The article says the "sources" believe the Madrassa was "espousing Wahhabism," a form of radical Islam.

All of the claims about Senator Obama’s faith and education raised in the Insight Magazine story and repeated on Fox News are false. Senator Obama was raised in a secular household in Indonesia by his stepfather and mother. Obama’s stepfather worked for a U.S. oil company, and sent his stepson to two years of Catholic school, as well as two years of public school.

To be clear, Senator Obama has never been a Muslim, was not raised a Muslim, and is a committed Christian who attends the United Church of Christ in Chicago. Furthermore, the Indonesian school Obama attended in Jakarta is a public school that is not and never has been a Madrassa.

canvas said...

Verity, to say Barack Obama is a muslim is an outright lie. Simple as that. So what if he was? But anyway, he's not.

Your vitriol poisons your thinking.

The debate was pretty much a draw because voters like both the candidates - but Hillary did get booed when she went negative - However, Obama is going to win the nomination. And so he should.

verity said...

Chris: Are you insane? You think I keep links of everything I read?

I couldn't be bothered to plough through all your bumf because I honestly don't give a crap about this fellow's young years. But someone in his organisation was quoted as saying that madrassah is the Inonesian word for school. This was obviously a panicky back 'n' fill operation.

His father was a muslim. That makes him a muslim. If he tried to escape, there would have been death threats as aposty is a crime against allah in the eyes of islamics.

He attends a very, very weird church in Chicago which has as one of its heroes - who it just honoured with a special award and no I don't save links unless they are important to me personally - Louis Farrakhan, founder of the violent radical Black Muslims. This is passing odd.

Canvas, blinded by love, writes: "Your vitriol poisons your thinking." Canvas, Canvas, Canvas, vitriol is a product of thinking. Not the other way round. Go and lie down.

Obama's a phony and you can see it a mile away. If he wins, I look forward to watching the piranas in DC eat him alive. I will bring my knitting.

David Lindsay said...

Verity, I can imagine no one less likely to favour anything remotely resembling Sharia Law than a Muslim-born convert to Christianity. Stop saying "Muslim" when you mean "black".

verity said...

Here comes that silly little troll David Lindsay! Specialist in interpreting thoughts of people he has never met and about whom he knows nothing!!! It's a gift!

Dear boy, several things. Obama isn't black. That is an outdated term for people with even a drop of black blood. He's mixed race and I for one haven't got any interest in his genetic make-up.

What I intend to say when I say "muslim" is ... "muslim"!

YOu say your hero "converted" to Christianity! When was that? How old was he? Details, please.

You are a very silly man.

I loathe Obama for several reasons: one, he's a muslim and he would be a hell of a useless head of state; two, he's a fool - in Texas, he posed as Ché. Doesn't that strike you as ... odd?

Perhaps you and Canvas could form a self-help group for people blinded by love of an opportunistic poseur.

Chris said...

Verity said @ 1:29PM
In the Rules of this blog, accessible on the bar at the top of the home page, one is required not to abuse fellow commenters.

Verity said @ 4:37pm
Chris: Are you insane?
No, but thank you for your concern.

You think I keep links of everything I read?

I don't expect you to keep links for everything you read, but you've made this allegation repeatedly on this blog, and I thought you might remember where you saw it originally.

I couldn't be bothered to plough through all your bumf because I honestly don't give a crap about this fellow's young years.

It's a shame you couldn't find the time to read it, but then I didn't really expect you too. I've long come to the conclusions that the only way you could hold the convictions you do would be to deliberately ignore any and all of the vast amount of evidence that contradicts you. So the text I included was really for the benefit of anyone else who might still be reading this thread, and who might be under the illusion your arguments are in some way rooted in reality.

But someone in his organisation was quoted as saying that madrassah is the Inonesian word for school. This was obviously a panicky back 'n' fill operation.
This seems to be a retreat from your earlier position were you stated it was Barrack himself who talked about a Madrassah.

His father was a muslim. That makes him a muslim. If he tried to escape, there would have been death threats as aposty is a crime against allah in the eyes of islamics.
Barack Obama has stated on many occasions that he is a Christian, and has never been a Muslim. But even if he wasn't or had, you statement shows little understanding of the wide variation in beliefs of different Muslims throughtout the globe.

He attends a very, very weird church in Chicago which has as one of its heroes - who it just honoured with a special award and no I don't save links unless they are important to me personally - Louis Farrakhan, founder of the violent radical Black Muslims. This is passing odd.

Again, it's a shame you don't remember where you first read this. I did a little searching of my own and I found these two articles which you may (or may not ) care to read.

Obama's a phony and you can see it a mile away. If he wins, I look forward to watching the piranas in DC eat him alive. I will bring my knitting.
Ok then. Oh and thanks for introducing me to the word 'bumf'. It's great :)

canvas said...

Chris, Barack Obama tells his entire life story in his book 'Dreams From My Father'. He has nothing to hide - and it is an extremely interesting book.

Pay no attention to the deluded Verity - she needs another G&T. :)

verity said...

Canvas - people who find you foolish must be heavy drinkers, eh? And of gin, yet! If that's what they drink in your circle, my condolences.

Chris, I'm not reading any links about Obama because what you and Canvas, who actually reads his books, don't understand is, life is too short to read books by self-serving phonies. If Tony Blair had written a book - an unlikely prospect, I agree - I wouldn't even read the dust jacket. Obama is cut from the same cloth.

Obviously, Obama was the first to say he had attended a madrassah - unless his mother told his people. Otherwise how would anyone know? No public relations person would have let this particular kuching out of the bag.

Chris, assuming everyone knows as little about islam as he does, writes: "you statement shows little understanding of the wide variation in beliefs of different Muslims throughtout the globe." Throught the globe!! Is this the same as "round the world"?

Not as many as you think. They all believe in death for apostacy. Once you're in, it is one hell of a job to get out alive. And he was born into it.

He would be a very dangerous individual if elected, although I have great faith in the checks and balances of the American system and Congress won't let him do anything too crazy. In fact, Congress won't let him do anything.

Chris said...

Verity,

Chris, I'm not reading any links about Obama because what you and Canvas, who actually reads his books, don't understand is, life is too short to read books by self-serving phonies. If Tony Blair had written a book - an unlikely prospect, I agree - I wouldn't even read the dust jacket. Obama is cut from the same cloth.

For someone who doesn't read anything about Obama, you seem fond of making pronouncements about who he is and what he believes. I think a more accurate statement is that you refuse to read anything about Obama which contradicts your preconceived notions about him.

Obviously, Obama was the first to say he had attended a madrassah - unless his mother told his people. Otherwise how would anyone know? No public relations person would have let this particular kuching out of the bag.

Again, you haven't provided any kind of source for this. I have looked and I can't find anything to back it up. At the moment, I don't believe Obama said anything of the kind.

The initial claim that Obama attended a madrassah was made in insight magazine. They latter retracted it, saying that it had been refuted by a CNN investigation and that they were in fact only reporting on rumours being spread by the Clinton camp.

Chris, assuming everyone knows as little about Islam as he does, writes: "you statement shows little understanding of the wide variation in beliefs of different Muslims throughtout the globe." Throught the globe!! Is this the same as "round the world"?

I said throughout the globe, not throught. But you're right, I guess across would have been a better choice of word. I'm sorry if this made it difficult for you to understand what I meant.

Not as many as you think. They all believe in death for apostacy. Once you're in, it is one hell of a job to get out alive. And he was born into it.

Once again it's nice of you to tell 'all' Muslims what they believe.

Islam is not genetic. If you live in some Muslim countries , then yes apstasy is a crime (it is not in Indonesia) and converting can be dangerous, but Obama was not bought up a Muslim, did not attend a secular school, moved to America when he was nine. I see no reason to believe he is some kind of secret Muslim, fanatic or otherwise.

It should also go without saying that being Muslim does not automatically make you evil.

He would be a very dangerous individual if elected, although I have great faith in the checks and balances of the American system and Congress won't let him do anything too crazy. In fact, Congress won't let him do anything.

You seem to be stuck in something of a circular argument. You claim Obama is a liar because he says he's not Muslim, and we can't believe him when he says he is not Muslim because he is a liar.

(And no, I don't accept the whole maddrassa thing as being prove that he lies, because I only have your word that he said it, and your recollection seems remarkable hazy.)

Again, kuching is a great word. Could you tell me what it means?

verity said...

Chris - It came out early in the campaign and was then the subject of an intensive back-and-fill operation. It caught my eye because I know that madrassa is not an Indonesian word.

You write: "Islam is not genetic. If you live in some Muslim countries , then yes apstasy is a crime (it is not in Indonesia)."

Indonesia is not an islamic country.

Kuching is Indonesian/Malaysian for cat.

David Lindsay said...

To be called a troll by Verity is high praise indeed. Some time ago, I and others managed to establish on here that Verity was either a pub bore or a pubescent boy, and we eventually settled (without any contradiction from the horse's mouth) on the latter.

Well, one might have hoped for some development since then. But apparently not. And if not in thought, then where else not?

Anyway, I suppose that Canvas's and my self-help group might include not only Jim Webb, but also Mark McKinnon, Colin Powell, Lincoln Chaffee, and probably Dick Lugar very soon.

I am no Obamaniac. And I have already said that I do not believe that a McCain victory would be a disaster. But I do believe that the Obama Coalition is capable of transcending the man himself and re-framing the American political discourse in terms of commitment to the advancement of the great American middle and working classes on the basis of their common interests.

Those interests include the protection of workers and consumers, family values, fair trade and fair tax, carefully controlled and strictly legal immigration, universal healthcare, constitutional checks and balances, Social Security, national security, environmental responsibility, energy independence, Civil Rights without discrimination, Second Amendment rights and responsibilities, foreign policy realism, America as an English-speaking country, and co-operation between government and private charity.

On that basis, there is a majority just waiting to be built at local, state and federal level in the US. And majorities very like that are also just waiting to be built in each and every Western country. The McCain Coalition might develop into that world-leading American majority. The Obama Coalition certainly would.

Whom does Verity actually support in this election? As I said before, John McCain is extremely unlikely to wage war against Iran or anywhere else. People like him don't. That's people like Clinton and Bush. And Verity, given half a chance.

Rather less endearingly, McCain also co-sponsored an attempted amnesty for illegal immigrants. Does Verity agree with that?

canvas said...

Well said, David Lindsay.

Barack Obama: "We need a foreign policy that makes sense. I don't want to just end the war in Iraq, I want to end the mindset that got us in there. I want to end the politics of fear. I want to rediscover diplomacy. I don't want to meet with my friends, I want to meet with my enemies."

Obama is right to say that.
Perhaps he would like to meet with Verity? :)