Tuesday, September 02, 2008
Let's Ban Bell Ringing (In Case it Offends)
Archbishop Cranmer has a post detailing how Oxford Christians have profusely apologised to local muslims for issuing a Call to Prayer during Ramadan. Whatever next. Perhaps we should ban bellringing, just to be safe. Did I tell you I used to be a campanologist? I can hear the peals of laughter already... Get it? Peals? Bells. Oh never mind.
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32 comments:
RIGHT ON IAN.
NOT OFFENDING MUSLIMS HAS GONE TOO FAR!
No surprise there, Oxford is now a muslim city.
We'd probably expect Muslims not to call for prayer (in thier style) on Christmas Day in Oxford either.
The worlds a different place nowadays Iain. Christians, like most British muslims have done for years, will have to learn respect the other major religious events of other faiths.
After all, the existence of god is now vigorously disputed by science - and how many people really believe nowadays anyway?
So what if they can't ring their bell for the sake of harmony?
It's no wonder some of them get the impression we're ripe for the taking. Perhaps we are.
Get it? Peals? Bells. Oh never mind
It's the way you tell 'em !
I'm guessing this is a C of E bishop. The greatest tragedy for this country's Christian heritage is that the established church is led by people who don't care. And isn't this the same bishop who said it's ok for muslims in Oxford to screech Allah u Akbar from loudspeakers. Hope Cameron would lead us away from this nonsense.
Wonder if they take any notice of Good Friday in Riyadh.
Christmas? Navity plays banned, and christmas rechristened the holidays - it wasn't inclusive enough. How about a little tolerance from the religion of peace?
What a pity that you were taking the piss out of Christians just this weekend with a blasphemous blog.
Here we go again... Iain, after your post on the "Sex education for 5 y/olds" nonsense I would have hoped you'd exercise a bit more discernment.
Cramner is a daft old duffer who's not as sharp as he used to be... best to view what he posts the same as you would a post in the Daily Mail.
This Christian group were holding an event specifically aimed at converting muslims from their "ideology" (not a "real" faith, you see), bang in the middle of Ramadan, and even using images of muslim women to promote it! You really can't see why some people might find that slightly uncomfortable??
If you did the same thing to a jewish group during passover the reaction from the Right would mirror that of the MECO (and rightly so).
Open Doors UK accepted their actions were insensitive - they are not shrinking violets and don't sugar the pill when it comes to highlighting Christian oppression... the fact they've apologised suggests they realise they overstepped the mark this time.
If a muslim group did something similar during easter would you really have no problem with it?
Wallenstein, religions exist to convert people to their own ways. And why not? I don't agree with your premise at all.
Anonymous 9.39, don't be such an idiot. I was doing neither as well you know. And mind your language.
This is no laughing matter.
The Muslim community in this country must be told that they are not entitled, under any circumstances whatsoever, to criticise or interfere with the religious beliefs and observances of others.
That's the deal, in this country. If they don't like it they can live somewhere else.
Except if you bother to trace this story back there's a bit more to it than your simplistic precis.
For one thing Open Doors hardly 'profusely apologised' they 'regretted' any misunderstanding - and then got on with what they wanted to do.
And if you look at their web site http://www.opendoorsuk.org/ the thing which jumped out at me was the newsflash on the top right saying: "Muslim extremists burn church building".
You make it sound like some country vicar got jumped on by a load of Taliban. Open Doors ('serving persecuted Christians worldwide' they say) are a lot more in your face than you make out.
Nothing wrong with them or Oxford Muslims expressing their opinions - everything wrong with twisting it so some of your readers can froth self righteously.
Now: can we have more posts about Sarah Palin please - it's been a whole day without anything from you on JM's VP and you're giving this gift horse's orifice a right eyeful.
Look to .....treble's going .....
Some of you appear to be missing the point.
The Christians had organised their event securely within the confines of St Aldate's Church.
They are entitled to pray for the conversion of the world and his dog in that building, even during Ramadan.
"religions exist to convert people to their own ways. And why not?"
I thought the bible was about showing people god's love... hard to see how offending people in their holy week counts as "loving your neighbour", or acting as part of the "meek who will inherit the earth" etc.
If you're going to profess a religion of peace and love you need to follow-through - especially if your adherants are going to criticise certain other faiths for their lack of humility and forebearance.
There's far too much playgound whining from Christians these days... "the muslims do it, so why can't we?". Next stop is a stamp of the feet and "it's just not fair, wah wah wah". Totally misses the point of the gospels and does true Christian believers no favours at all.
If their forebears could kneel in Nero's circuses while the lions prowled, I think Oxford's christians can cope with postponing their prayer meeting for a couple of weeks.
A coercive ban is nothing at all like a Christian group voluntarily choosing to apologise.
This is poor stuff Iain.
Trumpeter.
It's good you feel protective over this country, its a lovely place but you can't ever concievably have this your own way unless you either ban Islam or deport muslims. As much as you might like that to happen, it is never ever happening, so the only way forward is opening ears and closing mouths.
All due respect to your views.
Just wait for the muslims to do the norm from their countries of origin and string up tannoy speakers from every telegraph and electricity pole they can find, demandiing that all should attend prayers at the mosque or else!!
It's worth looking at the website for this event. As a dispassionate, non-religious observer, it seems to me that the organisers were setting out to be slightly provocative. This wasn't just a case of Christians not being asked to pray during Ramadan.
That said, I agree with Cranmer that the Christians have the right to say and pray what they want. The Muslims have the right to object to.
Religious people, screw them, I say.
A lot of fuss just in case they might upset someone else's imaginary friend.
"Campanologist"? Should that not be in Roger's Profanisaurus?...
camp what? you Iain camp ? never
Dealing with immigrants every day, I would start by noting that there is a need to point out that this country is a pluralistic democracy. I am not au fait with the full details of the case. If it was an attempt to cause offence, then that wasn't very clever. I suspect it wasn't, but someone wasn't thinking. This does rather look like the sort of thing I used to do as an undergraduate, then wonder why other people got offended (1 Aber Students' Union reprimand to my record). If so, why not apologise for the offence, if it was never intended?
Why would we not expect Muslims to call to prayer on Christmas day? Are we to say that you may have religion, so long as you dpon't take it seriously? That's silly!
Bell-ringing, except on Sundays, is really a recreation, not a call to prayer.
And if people are offended by the idea of people believing in God, then I'd be little disturbed by the fact. But if someone wants to walk around with a huge chip on their shoulder, I can't stop 'em.
Wallenstein, I would note it's not love to fail to try to alert someone to their true situation, nor is meekness the same as being a doormat. Seeking to convert people is not contradictory to this. The passages in the Sermon on the Mount that you quote refer to how Christians are to live, and that have an effect on how one goes about evangelisation.
What always fascinates me is how swift the anti-religious are to jump on posts of this nature to ventilate their hatred of all religion.
Religious harmony is not preserved by forcing people to be silent, but by the creation of a culture where religious differences can be aired without the giving of needless offence, or accusations of evil on either side. Good manners cost nothing.
Orthodox jews observe their sabbath
most carefully - to the point of not switching on electricity, such as light switches, ovens, as I understand.
I haven`t heard them complain of outside activity - not of concern to them.
Jillie
andy @ 10.03 PM. I don't want to ban Islam or deport Muslims. I just want them to understand that they are not entitled to impose their views on others. Nor are they entitled to take offence when other religions go about their lawful business.
Jews have lived in the East End and North London for generations. They don't take offence when Christians ring church bells on the Jewish sabbath. The very idea is laughable.
Let's have a bit of old fashioned tolerance for the views of others.
I think I am going to take up an idea of my late father's and promote a national Mind Your Own Business Day.
be glad you are not employees by tower hamlets as they have been instructed not to eat or drink during daylight hours as this could cause distress and offence to their muslem collegues who were fasting during ramadan.
as for oxford being a muslim city it appears that significant parts of the c of e hierarchy has also changed its allegiances
Anon. on September 03, 2008 10:14 AM: employees [in] tower hamlets [...] have been instructed not to eat or drink during daylight hours
See, you're doing it again! What's this obsession with mis-representing stories such as this?
1) It's not "all employees", it applies only to Councillors
2) The (misguided) suggestion was to refrain from eating in specific evening Council meetings until Ramadan fast had been broken at 7.45pm.
So for a 7pm meeting it would mean waiting 45 mins for a sandwich. Oh noes!!!111!
And note that the Muslim councillors in Tower Hamlets also think it's daft... the suggestion came uninvited from Democratic Services and has been rightly slated for being stupid.
There might have been an issue worth addressing, but while right-wing moonbats keep (deliberately?) overinflating the situation, it makes one take all their views with a pinch of salt.
What trumpeter said.
Self-loathers of the world, prostrate!
What a carillon...
By the sounds of the Oxford Mail's original report (which Cranmer links to), it wasn't a literal 'Call to Prayer' but a seminar entitled 'Call to Prayer'. And the Muslims in question were offended not by it occurring during Ramadan but by the Christians calling Islam an 'ideology'.
I know looking deeper into matters is what theology's for but it also helps blogging to be more accurate
This is a rather kneejerk reaction, with the usual "the Islamists are coming!" hysteria.
From the Oxford Mail article, this seems a bunch of Americanised Evangelicals (NOT the Established Church of this country) who decided to be gratuitously offensive and put it about that Islam isn't even a religion. Now they've been caught out and have issued a flimsy apology. They knew full well what they were doing.
And the blogosphere interprets it as weak and weedy lefty Christian types, prostrating before Islamism! It is wanton and deliberate misrepresentation.
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