Thursday, September 18, 2008

Stuart Wheeler's Really Helpful Intervention

I see "Conservative Party donor" Stuart Wheeler is at it again. This evening he will be making a really valuable contribution to a Conservative victory at the next election by making a speech urging people not to vote Conservative. Well done Stuart. Really well done.

In the James Goldsmith Memorial Lecture he will urge people not to vote for the Conservatives in the European elections next June unless David Cameron commits to two pledges in his party's manifesto.

The two pledges he says the Conservatives must make are;

1. A promise that if the Lisbon Treaty is not law when they come to power, they will hold a referendum on whether to withdraw UK ratification.

2. A promise that if the Lisbon Treaty is law when they come to power, there will be an immediate, massive renegotiation of the UK's relationship with the EU. If the UK did not get what it wants, the UK should pull out of the Union altogether.

Wheeler must know that the first one is already Conservative Party policy, as is the first part of the second. He must also know that the Party will not commit to pulling out in the way that he suggests. So what he has done is create a self fulfilling prophesy. The effect of people not voting Conservative in the Euro elections would mean the election of more Europhile MPs. You'd have thought a so-called spread betting tycoon would be able to see the logic of that, but it appears not.

I have said asked it before on this blog and I will ask it again. Why does anyone take this sort of thing seriously? Stuart Wheeler is of no influence in the Conservative Party and hasn't been for years. As far as I can work out he hasn't donated money to the party for five years, so why does he describe himself as a Conservative Party donor, something the media is then keen to repeat?

Stuart Wheeler is the Charles Clarke of the Conservative Party. Every few months he needs his fix of publicity. And making statements like this ensure that he gets it.

92 comments:

Anonymous said...

Can't see anything wrong with his demands. You are out of touch with the public Ian.

It is time Liberal Dave turned Tory Dave.

Iain Dale said...

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with what he demands. It's the fact that he is urging people not to vote Conservative. That could result in the withdrawal of his party membership. Assuming, of course, that he is still a member.

Alan Douglas said...

Iain, in the EU elections under PR a vote for UKIP HAS some value. I vote Conservative in the UK, but UKIP in Europe.

As far as I can tell this is the only way to show Tory leaders where I place my importances.

Alan Douglas

Anonymous said...

I doubt the public really gives a moment's thought about the EU. I know it is all the foaming at the mouth Europhobes think about - but the rest of the population? They couldn't give a fig!

On a more shallow note. Can't Mr Wheeler buy himself a decent set of dentures?

Anonymous said...

" I have said asked it before on this blog and I will ask it again. Why does anyone take this sort of thing seriously? "

Why does anyone take anything you say seriously - you don't bankroll the Tory party either, and you sure ain't an MP ?

It is because you have something interesting to say, and stimulate debate - which is all that Stuart Wheeler is doing.

Give the guy a break, at least he is not channelling funds from offshore.

Iain Dale said...

The difference is that I don't try to get headlines by urging people not to vote Conservative. That's the disreputable part of what he is doing.

Anonymous said...

The phrase 'silly old fool' comes to mind Iain however his views on the EU are felt my many

Desperate Dan said...

Wheeler's a hateful old man. I hope the Conservative Party has the courage to treat him with the contempt he deserves.

Anonymous said...

I posted here the other day describing David Davis as the Charles Clarke of the Tory Party - a phrase you've borrowed in this article. I still believe DD holds far stronger claim to that title with his big ego, small following, ignoble behaviour.

Stuart Wheeler, if anything, is more like the Derek Simpson of the Tory Party ie a welcome source of cash with unwelcome policies.

Desperate Dan said...

In making this speech Wheeler will demonstrate that he's a spiteful old git who's intent on doing Gordon Brown's dirty work. I'm sure Labour spin doctors will welcome him with open arms.

Newmania said...

Iain; with the sort of Poll lead Cameron now has ( In both DT and Guardian today) .The fear will grow that Cameron will betray his core support which he knows is stacked up in safe seats anyway. This was always part of the strategy.
33% of the vote got us 198 seats and 37% of the vote got Labour 356 seats so its obvious that Cameron wanted different voters as much as new voters. We knew that and put up with it when he insulted Margaret Thatcher by implicitly criticising her relationship with the US on the anniversary of 9.11 early on. ( I recall your dismay )

We have listened to warnings of "Tax rises" .Spending ‘increases’ in the NHS and promises to match Brown’s lunatic spending plans .We and read articles in the Guardian by Oliver Letwin , and others , banging on about Progressive ideals .We have looked on bewildered as a Guardian Editorial backed the Conservative Party and watched a style makeover that assumes modern is the same thing as "Liberal". After so many years of appearing to be irrelevant ( only an appearance ) Conservatives will put up with a lot but there has to be a walk away deal breaker .

I am not certain I see this as Europe where I feel Cameron has the right instinct . I am concerned about what will happen to “Sharing the proceeds of growth” when there is none .If the position is as it appears to be then rightish and even moderate Conservatives must start reminding Cameron that they cannot betaken for granted and that without us he has nothing.

What Iain is the point of a tax raising Brown level spending pro Europe progressive Conservative Victory . Wheeler may be an arse, I `ll take your word for it , but Anyone But Brown cannot be the whole story.One way of reminding Cameron and his patrician chums of this might be to vote UKIP in the Europeans elections but Conservative in the GE

no longer anonymous said...

Stuart Wheeler strikes me as someone who loves the sound of his own voice and feels that his views are so important that the media must pay attention to them.

I happen to agree with him regarding the EU but as far as I'm concerned he's a tactless clown whose intervention is not helpful to the party he claims to support.

Anonymous said...

Why should I a Tory voter, vote for a Conservative MEP? Dave has not told me what his policies on Europe are, UKIP have. A vote for a Conservative MEP is like a blank cheque. When Dave actually says what he will do about a referendum and the European constitution then I will decide if a Conservative MEP is worthy of my vote. Until then, I like Wheeler will not be voting for a Conservative MEP.

Surely you can not deny that Cameron is very woolly over Europe Ian?

Anonymous said...

Like another contributor I vote Conservative in first-past-the-post elections, but UKIP in PR elections. Why? It is simple, the EU is a big threat to our country that the Conservatives got us into in the first place, with that deluded bloke Heath. I do not trust the Tories to do anything about it, so how-else can I express my opinion?

Anonymous said...

As a former members of the Anti-Federalist League (fore runner of UKIP) and of UKIP until two years ago just don't bother voting UKIP at the Euro elections.

You might as well use your ballot paper as toilet paper becasue you will be flushing your vote down the toilet if you back UKIP.

Take a long hard look at what their 12 MEPs - whoops they have lost 3 so they now have 9 - achieved in the past 4 years?

They have grown richer and fatter with their snouts in the trough of Euro cash. They have betrayed everybody who gave them their vote.

The only thing that will be achieved by voting UKIP is to allow Labour or LibDem MEPs to be elected.

Letters From A Tory said...

Fair enough. I also agree with him but it does seem a little pointless.

Don't give him the publicity, Iain - you got his message across to tens of thousands of people!

David said...

Wheeler is right. The Tories need a kick up the backside on the EU issue, and a vote for UKIP in the EU elections is the way to deliver it.

Michael St George said...

Iain, I think you over-state your objections, for Wheeler does have a point.

On Pledge No. 1, the Conservatives may well have said that they will on coming to power hold a referendum on the EU Constitution Lisbon Treaty if it has not been ratified into law. But this is something of a political placebo – the question is, what action will they subsequently take in response to what is overwhelmingly likely to be a NO vote? This needs to be spelled out, and it hasn’t been in sufficient clarity.

On Pledge No. 2, again it may be a politically helpful soundbite to quote the “immediate massive re-negotiation of the relationship” mantra, but again, the question must be asked, towards what? Again this has not been specified. Neither has the strategy which will have to be adopted when the EU, as is highly likely, refuses to just acquiesce quietly to what could threaten to become an accelerating disintegration of the entire cherished political project (welcome though that would be). What will policy be if the EU just says, in effect “either stay in as it is, or if you don’t like it, leave”.

These are legitimate questions, and Wheeler should not be castigated for raising them.

The Conservatives should have the vision, and the courage, to posit that the current EU membership/relationship model, with c.70% of legislation emanating from Brussels and the supremacy of EU law based on socialist and collectivist principles, will stifle the otherwise sensible policy prescriptions to undo the damage caused by the NuLab years. It should not be left to Wheeler to do this.

But thanks for alerting readers to Wheeler’s delivering the James Goldsmith Memorial Lecture – I wasn’t aware of it, but will certainly try to obtain the transcript. Perhaps you would consider providing a link to it, in the spirit of encouraging civilised and rational debate?

Martin Day said...

Iain,

That could result in the withdrawal of his party membership. Assuming, of course, that he is still a member.

Lucky Stuart! They just took my money last time and never let me be a member(Though Stuarts money is an ocean compared to mine!). To think I took membership out on the day Brown took over as PM and got another to do so and they shunned me!

Nevermind! I don't understand why he says such things though getting back to the question - The status Quo is something he is unhappy about, The Tories can do something about this but I do not think in the middle of a Financial slump going it alone is an option.

Interestingly enough I wonder what impacts this will have on the SNP?

Colin said...

I think his comments on his concerns for the Tory stance on the EU may well be indicative of the feelings and misgivings of many people in relation to where the conservatives stand on a whole range of issues - from the EU, through the size of the state to fiscal policy. For example, if Dave and his chums really are against the big state – they should come straight out and say that, and give specific examples of where they’ll cut public spending and where they’ll repeal laws that give state officials the power to intrude in our lives. Otherwise, it all just sounds like sound bite bollocks. It’s like they’re running scared of upsetting a whole raft of minority interest groups and other “opinion formers”.

In case you're not aware, there is a strong feeling in the real world that we could vote a Tory government in at the next election and only end up with more of the same new labour type rubbish. There just doesn't appear to be any real heavyweight politicians of conviction in the Tory ranks. There are a number of well meaning amateurs, a couple of articulate chancers, and a few characters who think they're better than they really are. The reality is, there's no Thatcher or anything like her. Just when we need her…

Large numbers of the electorate may well despise labour and all they stand for, but I don't detect a groundswell of enthusiasm for Dave and his chums. What we would like to see are real policies for appropriate, radical change, across the board, not vague mutterings of “vote for us, we're not new labour”. A good starting point would be to put serious distance between themselves and the other parties on the subject of the EU. If they have the policies you say they have in response to Wheeler's comment, then they need to get out and get the message across to all of us. I suspect that on the EU and other controversial topics, the message is modulated to suit the audience; as a result people are in the dark and in that situation, they may well take the view that it’s better the devil you know…

CROWN said...

This sort of intervention from this 'Weirdo' (look at that photo!) can only help the Tory cause. This is the same as Arthur Scargill turning against the Labour party in the early 90s. Makes people more likely to do the opposite of what they say, because they do not want to be associated with them.

Desperate Dan said...

I am also a Conservative but unlike Wheeler I am wholeheartedly pro Europe. In an ideal world, apart from the laws that gave birth to the Human Rights industry and anything arranged by Mandelson, I'd like to sign up to most things European. I'd prefer French Law and German banking to our debased legal and banking systems and I'm even attracted to the idea of a European defence force.
The rabidly anti-Europeans who claim to speak for Conservatives do not represent me.

Anonymous said...

"They have grown richer and fatter with their snouts in the trough of Euro cash. They have betrayed everybody who gave them their vote."...sounds like ANY MEP including Tories who invented it! Wheeler has the right of free speech, as we all do until the EU decides we don't. And that day is surely looming, just look at poor little Malta, told to come to heel by the EU stasi only this week.

Anonymous said...

Party rules aside, I think you're wrong. UKIP were the second largest party at the Euros last time around, and Wheeler is clearly suggesting Eurosceptics use a vote for them as a cattle prod for the Tories. This is a very sensible suggestion, and I and many others will be voting UKIP next Spring and for the Tories whenever the Glorious Brown finally goes under.

As has been said upthread, right-leaning people want the Tories to win, but not with left-leaning policies. We're scared Iain! Our country has gone down the tube in recent years and we're very worried that Cameron will baulk from the big decisions that need to be made.

I have seen some truly shocking things said by Conservative MEPs. Their employment rests on the continuing existence of the EU pretend parliament, and simple incentives determine the way many of them think. If I could vote for Dan Hannan, I would. But the idiotic continental system they have means I can't. I have no idea who I'm voting for in the Tory party, or what they'll do. UKIP's position is straightforward, and one with which I agree.

Anonymous said...

Iain - the EU is the cancer tat the heart of UK politics. we must junk this shitheap socialist construct at the first opportuninty

Anonymous said...

Have you noticed that the BBC has not mentioned the Tories on 52% today? They are supposed to be a neutral reporting channel. They are not there to "bury bad news" for the government.
They saw fit to report on changes in the Israeli government, so its not like they didn't have time in their news slot.
Nor is it on their website!!!!
Why are we forced to pay for this baised broadcasting company?

Anonymous said...

Cameron is going to have tricky time at the conference. So far the economic crash has meant that all the odium (and media attention) has fallen on a deserving character - Gordon. However during the conference the Conservatives will be exposed, as they will have to say something about what they would do. Keeping quiet will no longer be credible.

I wonder if the Conservives will also use a large auto-cue machine like Clegg did, to give the appearance of a leader's speech without a detailed script?

airshipman said...

Like others here, I agree with Wheeler's points but cannot believe why anyone calling himself a Conservative would urge people to not vote for them.

Lobby the party, by all means - that's how policies are shaped and developed - but holding a gun to the leadership's head (or at least trying to) is just not on.

I bet he wrote his own Wikipedia entry.

Anonymous said...

I know what I want - a major renegotiation of the EU and I am sure that I would rather be out of Europe than in a united Europe.
That is also Wheeler's position.

That is not on offer from the Conservative Party. With PR in the euro elections I can vote for a Party that reflects my views and my vote will count. Indeed I harm myself if I vote any other way. The only way that changes is if Conservative policy on Europe changes. My only hope to influence that is to say in advance that I will humiliate the Conservatives at the EU election if they stick to their current policy.

At a GE with FPTP it makes no sense to vote UKIP unless I am sure that many others will also do so and the range of issues that matter is quite different.

So UKIP in 2009 and Conservative in 2010.

It isn't spiteful. I do not foam at the mouth. I am a powerless voter worried about the way the EU is going, who receives no reassurance from Cameron. In fact I am virtually certain that Cameron will betray my position when in office.

Stuart Wheeler has more capacity for publicising this view than I do. Well said.

Desperate Dan said...

One of the staggering number of anonymous posts here claims that people will no longer stand for not being told Conservative policies at this year's conference. Why not? Its got them a 52% approval rating so far and the only people demanding clarification of Conservative policies are either Labour politicians or BBC journalists neither of whom count.

Lady Finchley said...

Wheeler's just another Euro-bore and in my experience most Euro-bores are well to do retired people who are financially comfortable enough not to have to care about the real issues that concern most people - how they are going to pay their heating bills, knife crime, the rising cost of food, the failure of education etc. And if they do pay lip service to such concerns it is of course all the fault of the EU. They write huge tomes to their MPs about it and will bore anyone else who will listen.

I have always been more of a Euro Sceptic than pro Europe but I am pragmatic enough to know we are never going to pull out of the EU and we need to devote our energy to fighting our corner as well as cherry picking the way the French do.

Wheeler is an inconsequential old fool as are the rest of the Euro bores. Of course they would like to think of themselves as our core vote but things have moved on even if they haven't.

Anonymous said...

As a conservative I will definitely be voting for UKIP in the European elections. From past experience the Conservative Party has let us down at nearly every stage in the euro-federalist take over when they could have drawn a line but failed to. I am sorry to say on matters European the Tories cannot be trusted anymore. I am already sensing they are backsliding on Lisbon so it is difficult to see how any eurosceptic can have any goodwill left for them.

Unsworth said...

How much is he worth to the Conservative coffers? Is he expendable yet?

Twig said...

Mr Wheeler is right.
At the time of the EEC referendum we were told that the EEC was about free trade within Europe. The Tories told us it was not the thin end of a political union wedge.

When were we asked for consent to political union???

I don't trust the Tories on EU matters and that's why I moved to UKIP.

And by the way Anon 18/9/08 9:17 AM and Desperate Dan @10:29, don't confuse Europhobia with EU-phobia. Most people are quite happy to live alongside and trade with Europe, but we don't want to be ruled by unelected and corrupt bureaucrats from Brussels.

The EU has soaked us for billions and they can't even produce a set of accounts. Would you willingly put your money into an organisation that couldn't produce accounts?

Anonymous said...

I am not even convinced that Dave is in charge of his MEPs. His views on Europe are at best vague, how can he steer them when he does not know where he is heading?

hatfield girl said...

Angels in marble will vote Conservative at all and any opportunity, and be grateful for the chance of voting at all, while Brown's junta destroys a United Kingdom that is threatened infinitely less by the European Union.

Anonymous said...

If people trusted EPP Dave further than about one inch it might not be needed but as it is who really trusts the lad on his EPP type pledges?
Stick with it Stuart-were suspecting what your suspecting.

Common Sense said...

I stand with Anon 10.55am and all the others who agree with Mr Wheeler's views and want some clarification from the Conservatives on the subject. I don't trust them either and will vote UKIP in 2009 and Conservatives in 2010.

UKIP reflect my views. We will never get our enconomy back to working order if we are 9 regions of the EU. Let alone save any tatters of freedom, and self determination that we might have left. The picture on the front of The Telegraph today is just about right - says it all.

This week I removed the slave badge of the EU flag from my car number plates. Next week I'm going to the Conservative conference. If the Conservatives want my vote in 2009 they have to work for it. They've only goit it in 2010 to get rid of the socialists - and that goes for many of the 52%. A figure I'm delighted to see to get rid of Labour, not because I want to see the 'progressive' Conservatives in.

Anonymous said...

I agree with Anon 10:55. I shall vote UKIP in the Euro 2009 elections. It would be really enjoyable to see a nice solid block of, say, 50 UKIP MEPs sat in the Euro Parliament.

no longer anonymous said...

"In an ideal world, apart from the laws that gave birth to the Human Rights industry and anything arranged by Mandelson, I'd like to sign up to most things European. I'd prefer French Law and German banking to our debased legal and banking systems and I'm even attracted to the idea of a European defence force.
The rabidly anti-Europeans who claim to speak for Conservatives do not represent me."

I don't think many people in the country would represent your viewpoint! Euroscepticism is popular, although it can bore people when it comes across in angry old man Wheeler-style.

Newmania said...

Anon said -Have you noticed that the BBC has not mentioned the Tories on 52% today? They are supposed to be a neutral reporting channel. They are not there to "bury bad news" for the government.


That is a very good point which I also noticed. The Liberal story alone is big news

Victor, NW Kent said...

Since I do not think the EU Parliament serves any useful purpose I do not vote for any party in those elections.

Oxbridge Prat said...

Cameron has reneged on his one clear EU commitment, to leave the EPP. I don't see how I can vote for any MEP who is a member of the EPP (or any other such party) just before the election. If that means not voting Conservative, so be it.

Please don't underestimate how angry people are about this.

africanmum said...

Not voting Conservative won't lead to more europhile MEPs since we would vote UKIP in protest at the Lisbon Treaty. 80% of laws (see Peter Lilley's statement on the issue) made here are dictated by the EU - that's so wrong.

Anonymous said...

Newmania said... "Anon said -Have you noticed that the BBC has not mentioned the Tories on 52% today? They are supposed to be a neutral reporting channel. They are not there to "bury bad news" for the government.
That is a very good point which I also noticed. The Liberal story alone is big news.


I have heard it several times this morning on BBC radio 4.

Foaming at the mouth Europhobe said...

I have no intention of voting conservative in the euros and didn't need Mr Wheeler's advice. I have and always will vote conservative in a general election but UKIP will get my vote in Europe. Judging by the comments on here I'm not alone.

Freeborn John said...

Stuart Wheeler’s questions are very pertinent. The answer to the 2nd in particular will determine if I vote Conservative in 2010 for the first time in two decades.

Do you really have to ask ‘Why does anyone take this sort of thing seriously’? This is about who decides the supreme law of the land. If the Conservatives don’t care about that I will not vote for them.

Desperate Dan said...

" I don't think many people in the country would represent your viewpoint! Euroscepticism is popular, although it can bore people when it comes across in angry old man Wheeler-style."

I don't know how many people agree with me cos I can't remember seeing a reputable opinion poll on Europe but I do know that the EU is NEVER discussed in this country except in terms of who is for and who is against. It would be more true to say that people in this country know f***-all about Europe. - Although UKIP after years of trying have still only got 8 MPs so they're not half as popular as all the anons here are trying to paint them.

Niccolo Machiavelli said...

He looks very ill in that photo. Perhaps he won't last much longer.

Desperate Dan said...

If UKIP is as massively popular as Wheeler's supporters claim, how come they've only got 8 MEPs?

Newmania said...

I am pleased to see that a lot of people agree with me that Cameron is going too far left and its time to draw a line in the sand . I don’t see Europe as the issue to anything like the extent tax is myself and , of course , immigration , where we are far from clear Conservatives will respond to the clear wishes of the people for control.
It has to be balanced though with an acknowledgement that David Cameron has been a brilliant leader from the start and deserves a measure of trust.

I wonder how Mr. Dale feels about being a blue rinse Liberal. Is this why he has kept the flame alight all those years ? I suspect he will be thinking , as I am , that’s enough with the touchy feely stuff Dave , can we have a tincture of Conservatism in spots please

I `m probably wrong

permex said...

"Wheeler must know that the first one is already Conservative Party policy, as is the first part of the second."
I'm sure he does, Iain, but, such being the lack of interest among the general public, it has to be said again & again.
Only politicians read manifestos. If the Cons want to be elected they have to shout above the apathy.

MikeyP said...

UKIP in European and Not Labour (which in my part of the world is Tory) in British Elections until Call Me Dave takes on the EU and does something about stepping back from its extremes! If he does that, then it is Tory all the way.

VivaLaUKIP said...

Getting worried about the number of Tories saying they're going to vote for UKIP in the Euros next year, Iain?

Anonymous said...

when you say "I see", Iain, you mean "I read in the Independent"?

Anonymous said...

permex at 12.49 - what confidence can be placed in a manifesto 'promise' when the courts have recently held that such 'promises' are in fact not promises and can be ignored or forgotten as soon as an election is over?

as an example of the reliance that can be placed on 'windmill dave' he stated that conservative mep's would withdraw from the epp, they said they would not, so he said 'oh orlright'

airshipman said...

Why are people still willing to support UKIP? Voting for UKIP is like placing a bet on a horse that's just keeled over and died on the last lap of the race.

They are gone! Finished! They had their chance and they muffed it!

I just don't see how anyone can in all seriousness vote for a party which is being ravaged by civil war - one side of which are practically neo-fascists!

Farage is alright though, he should defect.

tory boys never grow up said...

Not sure the first part of the 2nd question is Tory policy. Could someone define what are the objectives of the proposed rengotiation and what the Tories policy is with regard to the future of Europe - apart from throwing a great big wobbly which everyone will ignore.

At least Stuart Wheeeler is pretty clear about what he wants - and he should be commended for his honesty at least.

David Lindsay said...

Cameron never was opposed to the Lisbon Treaty.

He was just in favour of a referendum (which, after a month of very biased coverage, might well have delivered a Yes vote), and never said that he would campaign for a No vote. In any case, he always knew that it wouldn't happen.

Why did the Telegraph and all the rest fall for this trick?

simon said...

Stuart Wheeler is entitled to say what he likes. The Conservative Party MUST have known his views on the cursed EU and have taken his cash regardless. Therefore why make a fuss regarding his comments? Many 'conservatives' want a referendum on EU membership with the main aim of the populace having their say and giving the EU an FO- but we can't have the people having their say on such an important issue as EU membership can we now? Only important people such as the establishment and the CBI etc can decide such things.....

Ajax said...

Anon September 18, 2008 9:17 AM

"I know it is all the foaming at the mouth Europhobes think about"

I know it is the standard tactic by EU supporters and the Left to paint anyone against the EU as mentally strange and an extremist. That is a tactic that has been used for many years.

But actually, Mr Anonymous, YOU are the extremist and the weird one who still supports the EU in spite of everything. You are pathetic.

Wheeler is absolutely RIGHT. Iain you are wrong to talk the way you do.

Peter Mitchell said...

“The effect of people not voting Conservative in the Euro elections would mean the election of more Europhile MPs.”

You don’t understand PR or the Conservative selection process for MEPs do you Mr. Dale? If we won’t vote Conservative in 2009 because of pro-EU Tory policy then it will result in the lowest ranked MEPs on the list losing office. The party selection process was such that these are the federalist fellow travelers among the Tory ranks in Brussels. The consequence of voting UKIP rather than Conservative next year will therefore be fewer Europhile MPs.

Justin Hinchcliffe said...

Completely with you on this one, Iain.

Perhaps by telling him to get f$£&ed, this could be our 'clause 4' moment?

How can we talk about the unions buying policies when we, until recently, appeared to be doing the same with the likes of this crazy old fool?

Robert said...

I will be voting Ukip at the Euro elections in 2009 and will not vote Conservative at the next general election unless we get a firm committment from the Conservative Party that we will at the very least have a referendum on a ratified Lisbon treaty. I would like to see total withdrawl from the EU. It is the cancer at the heart of our government aand must be excised.

I live in a Labour marginal seat. If Brown promises a vote on EU withdrawl from the EU I would put past prejudices aside and vote Labour for the first time.

I do not trust this Conservative Party. They have taken us too far into Europe in the past.

Newmania said...

Could someone define what are the objectives of the proposed renegotiation and what the Tories policy is with regard to the future of Europe –


If someone had been clear what the future of Europe was when we entered the so called Common Market that might be a good point . We have slithered in by lies and obfuscation and we will slither out albeit reflecting the will of the British who , right now , may not wish to leave but certainly do not want Lisbon or indeed anything more than the Common Market they voted for . It will be a long process of course and we do not have to chart every foot of it now

Tory Boy your assumption that if the British Government is profoundly unhappy with the EU and has the backing of the British people it will be ignored is another boon we have to thank Brown and his lap dog Liberal sell outs .

You must be so proud

DAVID LINDSAY- Your re-invention of the past to suit your bizarre fish eye lens is commendably Stalinist. There will be a place for you in Nu Nu Lab , next years Telly Tubby

stuart said...

It doesn't mean more pro-European MEPs. People could go out and vote UKIP. That way they'd at least get a party with an honest position on Europe. It's not a position with which I agree, but it is at least honest.

The Conservative position on Europe is: vote for us if you want politicians who complain about Europe but won't ever do anything about it.

If you're pro-European you should vote LibDem or Labour; if you're anti then vote UKIP. Simple.

Dan said...

Stuart Wheeler and David Davis stand up for what they believe in - they are not robot party politicians and are all the better for it in my mind. I'm sorry to disagree with you Iain but i'm with Wheeler on this!

Anonymous said...

Several loons on this site say that they will vote UKIP in the Euro elections.

Why? If you are agin our membership of the EU abstaining is the only option.

For UKIP MEPs are idle, corrupt or just bonkers and they do nothing on being elected but take the EU shilling.

Just don't vote.

Mark Wadsworth said...

"The effect of people not voting Conservative in the Euro elections would mean the election of more Europhile MPs."

Euro-elections are proportional representation. What's your point?

T England said...

I'll vote Conservative in the UK, but UKIP in Europe.
The Tories need a to know they are on a knife edge when it comes to the EU!

Freeborn John said...

80% of British law is now made in Brussels, but Ian Dale prefers to turn a blind eye. His highest aspiration seems to be what Norman Lamont called “being in office but not in power”. What is the point of a Conservative government with the kind of massive majority that 52% support in the country would give if not to solve the fundamental problem of the EU and its corrosive effect on our democracy? Is such a majority really to be used to keep to the current Labour government’s spending targets instead? Based on what I see here the Tories will last one parliament and we will be as sick of you after two years are we are with Gordon Brown after one.

Anonymous said...

Vote Tory in the euros for more 'Europe',whatever Dave may say.

Wheeler is bright enough to know that surely.

Desperate Dan said...

"Stuart Wheeler and David Davis stand up for what they believe in ...."

...regardless of the damage it might do. Perhaps they should form a club with Ken Livingstone. They all have so much in common.

Anonymous said...

Sorry, you're saying Dave has a policy. Is it written down anywhere?

Michael said...

It seems to me that there are a lot of people writing here who feel like me - voting UKIP in 2009. My only quibble is that I might not vote Tory in any GE that occurs between now and 2010.

A few policies might help. Nothing tricky - how about stopping non-Police handing out fines? Or finding enough dentists?

Freeborn John said...

Desperate Dan. Can you describe what damage you believe the policy advocated by Mr. Wheeler would do? Would it (in your worst case scenario of EU withdrawal) damage our economy in the way that Switzerland, Norway and Iceland have been reduced to poverty outside the EU? Would we be reduced to the terrible position of Canada that is negotiating free trade with the EU/EEA in addition that already achieved via NAFTA with the US & Mexico while remaining a true democracy? What if we are able to stay in the EU, but negotiate the return of substantial political powers lost in recent EU treaties while still retaining voting rights over single market legislation?

What are you so afraid of that would stop a Conservative government negotiating improvements in our relationship with the EU that the majority of Britons want which would also keep a substantial financial donor like Stuart Wheeler on board?

hatfield girl said...

'What is the point of a Conservative government with the kind of massive majority that 52% support in the country would give if not to solve the fundamental problem of the EU and its corrosive effect on our democracy?' asks 4.29.

It isn't the European Union that is corroding democracy in the United Kingdom, and threatening the dissolution of the Union itself. The corrosion and the threat comes from the New Labour regime.

New Labour have vandalised our constitution, undermined the rule of law, removed civil liberties of centuries' standing, exposed the United Kingdom economy to the worst of the credit crisis, failed to invest and renew during their 11 years in power, and imported an obsessive observance of the minutiae of European Union legislation into our country to justify their building of a client base with jobsworths and creeps.

You can't blame the European Union for not suiting the United Kingdom. Blame the current regime for pretending that it is the EU that denies self determination and independent choices. This not true.

Most European Union member-states are generally fully supportive of the EU and its objectives; why not, it conforms to their state systems and delivers their requirements.

Note that the UK is always out of step, always arguing, always refusing to associate itself. Leave. But fight and abuse the real enemy - your own governments whose unacceptable agendas are hidden in whipped up anti-EU feeling.

Anonymous said...

The only ones with swivel eyes etc. are those in the Cabinet (especially Hutton and Smith) who think Brown is doing a good job.

If you don't like the way the EU is developing then voting UKIP at the European election is perfectly rational.

Blackacre said...

Fab isn't it. Poll rating 52%, double that of Labour. And yet the Conservatives have every chance of wrecking it once again over Europe.

A note to you all in the Conservative Party - most people do not care much about Europe. If you pull yourself apart over this again, you will lose your lead.

Desperate Dan said...

Freeborn John
Our economy's already damaged and it has nothing to do with the EU. And I've noticed that in the case of men like Wheeler anti-Europe usually means pro-US, not pro-UK.

Freeborn John said...

Blackacre: As you say many voters don’t care about the EU. So there is no chance that a Conservative policy to return power from Brussels will affect the Tory opinion poll lead hugely. Of those voters that do care, there are many more want the EU to have less power over our lives than support the Lisbon treaty or ‘ever closer union’. So a more assertive Conservative policy to rengotiate membership can only be a Tory vote winner.

Given the general trend to EU-scepticism, this is a policy which is more likely to split the other parties than the Tories. Tory supporters of the EU project have been reduced to a rump while even Charles Kennedy now has to make speeches at LibDem conferences shoring up the pro-EU position.

Foxy said...

Lady Finchley's entry leaves me speechless, well nearly! I am another Euro bore (as you put it) and a loyal member of UKIP. I thought we still lived in a democracy but judging by Lady Finchley's views, we do not. All the problems facing Britain today are entirely as a result of our membership of the Europen Union.

Indeed, I understand that, since our membership in 1972 it has cost us 217 bn. pounds and we have a Trading deficit with the E.U. of 357 bn. pounds. This on top of a Black Hole created by Labour presently running at 65 bn. pounds this financial year. No wonder it is costing every British Tax Payer dearly because we Brits have to pay to furnish the countried debt. This is of course is the reason why all our services are underfunded, the Government simply do not have the money to support them.

Addressing briefly the three main parties policy on Europe. They are all Pro E.U. therefore a vote for any of them in the General Election will be wasted if you wish to withdraw from the E.U. Stewart Wheeler would like to see the Conservatives renegotiate E.U. Membership but I believe this cannot be done because all the Treaties are legal documents and have been ratified by The Queen and are not open to renegotiation. Therefore a vote for UKIP at either election will be essential if you wish to withdraw from the E.U., otherwise the status quo will remain for ever. UKIP has moderate and sensible policies, please refer to the Manifesto on our Website.

I would like to ask those of you who are going to vote for the Conservative Party at the General Election. What do you think is going to be gained for voting for this Party, apart from being elected and getting the country back on its feet (which of course is laudible). The problems of the E.U. will remain, i.e. the undermining of our Christian values, uncontrolled immigration, more legislation to put us an even tighter straight-jacket and financial ruin etc. etc.

Good Luck Stewart, I hope your approach to D.C. will achieve the success it deserves, although I am sceptical about the renegotiation suggestion as I have stated.

choosing a cartoon character's name, and seeming to have the childish misunderstanding that isn't anonymity said...

desperate dan

Now we've got to the bottom of it haven't we? What DO you think of the USA?

hatfield girl

Gibberish. Provide something concrete instead of getting lost in abstractions.

Lady Finchley said...

Wow, Foxy, you really are a Euro-bore!

Arlene said...

Like others here, I would vote UKIP in the EU elections and Conservative in the GE.

However, the 2009 council elections still loom. Should Cameron not come off his fence before then, I shall vote UKIP in the council elections, as well.

Thank you Stuart Wheeler - I salute you!

Freeborn John said...

Desperate Dan: So when asked to explain your concerns about renegotiating powers from the EU you can do no better that resort to anti-Americanism? Is that good enough reasons to put up with the drain on our wealth and democracy that the EU represents? The US is a powerful country but does not have the power to decide an ever-growing body of EU law which is the supreme law of this land and which is steadily replacing the law-making power and Parliament and the ability of our votes to shape the law we live under.

I support good relations with the US, European countries and the wider world, but I want that we the British people are able to live under a government of our choosing. This since is an aspiration incompatible with the EU project we have to decouple ourselves from ‘ever closer union’ and there will be no better opportunity than 2010, a year that may see the 1st incoming Conservative government for 31 years. It is imperative that this new government uses a popular mandate and Commons majority to resolve this worsening problem because if the opportunity is squandered we may not see another chance for 31 more years by which time the one-way ratchet to the super-state will be very far advanced indeed.

Rebel Saint said...

It's UKIP for me in the euro's. Warming to Cameron for the National ... but even then the BNP are looking favourable.

Adrian P said...

BNP for me too, I know they are anti EU.
NB Anti EU, not anti European, and they want to allow the Gurkhas Residence which I believe in too.

ukipwebmaster said...

"The effect of people not voting Conservative in the Euro elections would mean the election of more Europhile MPs"
RAOFL!
:)

Anonymous said...

I am a Conservative member, voter and activist. However, I certainly won't be voting for the Conservatives in an election where the composition of the list means such a vote is a vote in favour of continued "ever greater union".

Foxy said...

Following Stewart Wheeler's suggestion that the "Conservatives should renegotiate our relationship with the E.U.". Is there anyone able to answer my question as to whether the Conservatives can renegotiate E.U. Membeship as all the Treaties are legal documents and have been ratified by the Queen?


Please can someone tell me why a vote for one of the three main parties, who are all pro-E.U. would help us withdraw from the shackles of the European Union. I am at a loss to understand why and the reason I am asking for a reply to this question is because, like Stewart Wheeler I used to be a loyal Conservative supporter, but not any more, I feel the Conservatives have completely betrayed my trust in them as a Party. Britains should have been told the full implications and truth of membership of the EEC thirtyfive years ago when it was first agreed, but we were not and this is shameful. I want the people who govern my country to tell me the truth, after all I do not tell lies to anyone and I do not expect anyone to lie to me in return.

It is also of interest that many countries in the world trade freely with the European Region and it does not cost them a penny piece of membership.

Also where are our Christian principles, when thousands of tons of dead fish are thrown back into the sea every time a fisherman brings in a haul which is over his quota, whilst people in other countries are starving, naming Zimbabwe as an example. Mick Mahon, a Cornish fisherman is apparently being fined £50,000 by the authorities for bringing his dead fish back to shore to give away. If we had 'common sense' government, this would not be allowed to happen.

Please, everyone on this website, think about the sort of country you and your families wish to live in in the future and encourage others to do the same by become more active in implementing your goals.

Anonymous said...

Even Wheeler is entitled to his opinion Alan.
Are you not pushing the party line too much? Did I not read that you have been selected to stand as a Toriy somewhere?