Friday, October 02, 2009
Will This Be a Sad Day for Democracy?
Today is an important day in the Republic of Ireland. It goes to the polls and votes (for the second time) on the Lisbon Treaty. I have no great hopes that the Irish will do the right thing and consign this treaty to the dustbin of history, where it belongs. They thought they had done that the first time. In this referendum campaign all the vested interests have been out there issuing dire warnings about the consequences of a 'no' vote, and it seems they will get their way. If so, it will be a sad day both for democracy and the cause of national sovereignty.
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101 comments:
Irony alert: A sad day for democracy if people vote for something you don't agree with?
I'll think you'll find that's, er, democracy...
The EU and Irish gov 'YES' campaign has by lies and scare stories, get the Irish to vote YES.
The EU and NuLAB have both been sad days for Democracy. The Irish gov can be added to the list.
Pete-s
You don`t think they`ll make it best of three then ?
It certainly will be a very sad day for democracy if voters in the Republic of Ireland do not vote for what the UK Conservative Party want them to do.
I think the Irish will vote yes, however Czech President Klaus has hinted strongly he intends to hold out until the UK GE, so there's still a glimmer of hope
A very sad day until a few months later they make Tony Blair Emperor of Europe.
Yet again, Matt is summed it up very nicely -
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/matt/
Yes, im very much afraid it will.
There is one hope: those in the angry NO camp are more likely to vote.
Those thinking of voting YES believe the YES camp have already won, so why should they bother dragging their bums to the polling station?
I think it will be very close.
The EU is acting like Don Logan in Sexy Beast.
"I'm gonna have to turn this constitution down"
Don: " you are going to have to turn this constitution YES!"
I do agree with you that it will be a sad day. I will only vote for a party that offers us the same referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. Labour obviously lied to the UK about offering us a referendum, but who else is guaranteeing to give the people that they supposedly represent the choice? (I cannot bring myself to vote for UKIP after there misdemeanours)
As has been mentioned over a Order Order, the Irish have a chance to vote so that they can have an English EU President to rule over them.
This is a very sad day. It paves the way for the return of President Blair.
It also sets UKIP's agenda back.
Nice one Roger T ... (chortle out loud )
Mature and responsible Irish people of mature and middle years, with a conservative mind, will largely be voting to avoid rocking the boat.
Sensible.
Federal Europe, here we come
It's their choice.
There's some irony in those who berate the lack of democracy in the EU whingeing because they don't like the results of a referendum.
I know many have said no already and it's a disgrace the EU didn't go back to the drawing board.
But two wrongs don't make a right.
So it will only be a sad day for democracy if they happen to disagree with what a vacuous moron happens to think?
This from the same man who declares it a victory for democracy whenever any electorate votes against anything EU related?
This from the same overtly gay man who expects other gay men to turn out to support him, simply because he is gay?
Well this gay man says that it will certainly be a sad day for democracy when an overbearing blockhead like Iain Dale gets elected to Parliament. Until that day, this gay man will call it a victory for democracy whenever an electorate gets its say .. despite the lies and scaremongering of the 'NO' campaign and Europhobic peeons like Iain Dale.
Pretty much finding every day of late is a sad one for democracy, especially in this neck of the woods.
But, flawed as it is, it is still about the best system out there.
Unless its less stable pillars are bent and twisted to suit the aims of those with the time and inclination to ensure that what they see as 'best' is what everyone else (a tad busy with trying to get on with their lives) sees too.
I can't see a viable alternative any time soon.
As Newmania suggests, and as ignored by a few others, there is always the option of best of 3...etc.
Isn't there? No? Why not?
Why do British nationalists care about Irish or French or Latvian nationalism? Surely, one of the essences of being a good nationalist is that you hate all the others. So it wouldn't matter to you if they were independent states or all one big empire - as for most of it's history, mainland Europe has essentially been.
I don't much care myself one way or another, as there are pluses and minuses to being in the EU, but on this specific vote - the Right have never really been other than confused. If we are in the EU, then the changes make sense, because they eliminate the veto of individual countries and make things more workable and also - although you would never believe it if you listened to Tory rants on the subject - more democratic, strengthening the elected Parliament over the Commission.
So what your opposition boils down to is that you don't like the EU and want Britain out of it. Just say that and admit it instead of slagging off changes to the existing EU institution. At least it's a respectable position to say you want out, rather than pathetically sniping at everything the EU does to try to reform.
It is another step to the post democratic age. EU Commissioners now have a larger influence on our law than Westminster. We have at best an indirect democracy where we get to choose the Government which seeks to negotiate with these bureaucrats and have some influence on their outcome.
I am a keen supporter of the single market, I accept a market must have common rules and regulators to work fairly. This necessarily implies rules that can override legislation in individual states in the agreed areas. I agree that there are a series of common problems such as international crime, refugees, international pollution, international trade and energy security where it makes sense for the EU members to work together and coordinate their responses. But this treaty is another dangerous step towards a future where democracy is a sham. One of the most frightening parts of the treaty is the Passerelle provisions which basically allow our masters to change the treaty again without asking anyone, even the Irish. For the reasons set out I do not support BOO but we may one day face some very unpalatable choices.
It's an Irishman's (and woman's) prerogative to change their mind, and it's monumental arrogance to presume to tell the Irish what to do and denounce them for not agreeing to you. The Irish were, narrowly and on balance, against the Lisbon Treaty as it was to be interpreted last year; if the 26 other member states (all of whom are happy with it) change its interpretation to reassure the Irish, it's quite legitimate to ask "how would that be then?".
The Irish people are not some sort of tool of British eurosceptics. They deserve more respect than that.
I can only hope that the Irish see it in their best interests to vote No.
Having kicked the British out after so many years of bloody struggle, why, oh why, do they so meekly want to be re-enslaved, this time by the EU?
@ Aviad said...
[snip - multi faceted rant]
At least Mrs Dale does you the courtesy of printing your words, because if this was a LibDim or ZaNuLab blog or the Grauniad or similar newspaper, your response would have been moderated onto the cutting room floor.
If it is a yes then D.Cameron better get off the fence and tell us what the tories are going to do about the EU/Lisbon treaty.
If the tories will not commit to decisive actions regarding the EU i will vote for a party that has.
They should not be given the benefit of the doubt and be trusted to do the right thing when the time comes.
This issue alone will show whether the Tories are worth electing or really are just "Blue Labour".
Aviad,
1. Iain is not anti-EU. Like many Conservatives who want to be part of the EU, but do not want to hand over more control to it.
2. Iain did not ask Gay men to vote for him. Try reading the article.
3. The Irish people have already voted and they said NO. You honestly believe that it is democratic to ignore their vote?
You are a Tw*t.
Iain, with all due respect, our written constitution allows our proportionally elected parliament to consult the people, who are sovereign in Ireland.
Britain doesn't have a written constitution and doesn't even let a political party that advocates withdrawal from the EU win the seats in parliament according to their share of the people's votes.
Tony Blair got elected prime minister despite the fact that 65% of British people voted against him. Prime Minister!
Seriously man, you're a good guy and I'm a fan, but Britain is in no position to lecture us about democracy.
At risk of the monumental arrogance of sharing an opinion, and the disrespect that might impose on those some think don't have minds of their own to weigh arguments...
As I understand it, a majority of the population in a country voted a way that some others did not find acceptable.
Hence a few things were 'adjusted' to rush through another 'go' at getting the 'right' result within a timeframe being demanded by interests way beyond those of that country?
So.. if a minority don't like the result this time round, will the same accommodation be afforded again?
If not, why not?
I have to disagree. Although the campaign is dirty, full of vested interests and shoudln't even be (the first NO should have killed it), we have to respect the will of the Irish people, much as people said the first NO should have been respected.
Just because it wasn't, doesn't mean we should reject a YES vote. If we show the same contempt for democracy as europhiles have, then we become no better than them.
The eurosceptics time will come - but we must stick to our principles. If we ignore a yes then we forget what we're fighting for.
My thoughts exactly, Anonymous (the first one).
We can't pick and choose what parts of democracy we like. Either we accept that a number of people did vote (but not the way we would have liked them to) and move on. Or we go for the alternative and make sure no one has a say.
Although I imagine alot of Labour bloggers would call a Tory general election victory 'a sad day for democracy.'
So much for the Irish belief in independence. All they really want is to be told what to do by the corrupt unelected dictator Tony Blair.
I hope the Pogues write a song about the death of the irish spirit.
@David Boothrotd
if the 26 other member states (all of whom are happy with it) change its interpretation to reassure the Irish, it's quite legitimate to ask "how would that be then?".
1) The other countries haven't been allowed to vote on it, so your 26 countries happy with it is unfounded (possibly a deliberate lie)
2) They haven't changed the proposed amendments to existing treaties to centralise power with the unelected. That would ahve required renegotiating the treaty to include caveats for Ireland, they've promised (with crossed fingers) to make changes later. (you do realise that once enacted we have no say on any changes made)
3) You either accept a referendum or you don't. If the Irish had voted yes the first time do you believe there would have been another referendum just to see if they'ld relly meant yes.
It is a slap in the face to democracy to force a people to re-vote. I suspect labour will be asking for another election after the next GE just in case the people made a mitake.
Alternatively you could argue that, for the first time, there will be a proper democratic vote today as last time round the campaign was just a big one-sided lie mainly from Englishmen trying to interfere with Irish autonomy.
Lisbon is right for Ireland as the majority will prove today now they've had the opportunity for a balanced and fair debate.
The EU has been the best to happen to Ireland in its history
This is one of your more stupid and arrogant posts, Iain (although, to be fair, you give us considerable choice on those two counts). The points have already been well made by Aviad and others, so I won't repeat them. All I will say is that if the next Parliament is going to be full of idiots like you, the future is truly bleak.
To all those who think they are making a point by claiming that it is ironic that Iain is claiming that it is a sad day for democracy if the Irish do not vote the way Iain would like, it is ironic that you have all forgotten that the Irish have already voted on this issue and are being put in the position of having to go back and do it all again because an unelected cabal think they got it wrong first time - How f#*king democratic is that?!!!!!
Those who rant about how it's wrong for people to pick and choose which bits of democracy they support, or how the Tories are trying to bully the Irish into voting one particular way, or how rich it is for us to lecture the Irish on how they should vote, are wilfully ignoring two points:
1) The Irish people have voted on this once before. How is it "democratic" to force this decision to be re-run? Why not have a third vote in 6 months time to see what people think then?
2) The amount of distortion, misinformation and pure lies that the pro-Lisbon camp has spouted over the past months (i.e. "vote "yes" or Ireland is finished") should in itself be sufficient to render any yes vote void. How is it "democratic" to bully and intimidate people into voting the way you want?
Shame on David Boothroyd and the rest for supporting the cynical duping and misleading of voters in this way, and then calling such behaviour "democracy". But then, what would you expect from NuLab supporters...?
Aviad, as far as I can work out Iain was answering questions on a gay website, and asked for any of its readers in Bracknell to attend the selection meeting. I presume if he was giving an interview to a stamp-collectors or train-spotters website he would ask for any stamp-collectors or train-spotters in bracknell to come along. What is the problem?
Thise stamp-collectors, they all stick together you know!
Iain
What consummate drivel – utterly unworthy of someone who seeks to be elected to serve the people. Democracy in its purest single-issue form is putting a proposition to the people and then acting. Letting the people decide. You support this in respect of the Lisbon Treaty in the UK thinking, I assume, that there is a very good chance that the British people will reject the Treaty and that this will give you and the rest of the Eurosceptics a big chance to make further mischief. But when the Irish vote today in favour of the Treaty, if they do, you condemn them for not knowing what they are doing. But in the quiet of the Ballot Box it’s up to them – that’s what Democracy means.
You can’t have it both ways. If you are a Democrat you cannot pick and choose the Democratic outcomes that are in some way valid and those which are not. They are all equally valid in the purest sense. And politics isn’t a game. In your Bracknell manifesto you churn out the same tired old Tory right-wing propositions about freedom and the awfulness of the EU and the greatness of Thatcher and all that stuff. All designed to comfort the Tory faithful. But there is no sense in your “What I believe in” that you believe in social justice, in eliminating inequalities, in broadening opportunities or even that you want minorities to stop being persecuted, a particularly odd omission in your personal case.
Democracy empowers the minority chosen few to act on behalf of the all the people. If the Irish choose Yes today that’s their choice. And it is then up to their leaders to do their best to respect that choice.
I want out of the EU. There, I have said it Mr Liberal. I presume if it is a NO vote, they will have another and another until they get it right. It really does sound like New Labour. (We are right and you will do as we say. You're only the electorate anyway, nobodies)
Not only will it be yes, it will be an overwhelming yes, third time lucky!!
Democracy means keep asking until you get what you want, instead of taking no last time.
There have been so many irregularities and illegalities during the referendum campaign that arguably a Yes vote would still not enable the Irish government to deliver a constitutionally valid ratification of the Lisbon Treaty as required by Article 48 of the Treaty on European Union, the prevailing treaty law under which amendments to the present treaties must be made.
And if the ratification of the treaty by any one member state is shown to be tainted, any other member state will have grounds for objection; and as ratification must be unanimous the entire ratification process will be both tainted and insufficient, and therefore the treaty cannot legally come into force.
Even if it was illegally declared to be in force because all of the current goverments were prepared to turn a blind eye to tainted ratifications delivered by one or more member states, a new government of a member state would have strong grounds for rescinding the valid ratification previously delivered by its own state.
Of course the real question is whether the government of any of the member states would care enough about the rule of law to do anything other than turn a blind eye to illegalities, even after David Cameron had won our general election next June.
So far he hasn't given any indication that he's much bothered about it, in this or any other context.
The intellectually-challenged Aviad says, "...this gay man will call it a victory for democracy whenever an electorate gets its say ... despite the lies and scaremongering of the 'NO' campaign and Europhobic peeons like Iain Dale."
Which of course completely ignores the vastly more expansive lies and scaremonging (and threats) of the 'YES' campaign - see virtually any Lisbon-related article in the Irish Times over the past few weeks for some choice quotes.
But the amusing aspect to the comments of 'that gay man' is that he is terribly keen on the electorate getting their say but seems not to have noticed that they already had their say but were ignored. If a yes vote today represents a victory for democray, the EU's rejection of the initial no vote surely represents a subversion of democracy?
It would also be nice to put to bed the twin canards of "the treaty has been changed" and "it's all about tidying up the workings of the EU". Such remarks betray either complete naivety, wholesale ignorance, or a shameless unwillingness to stand up for a belief in a Federal Europe.
David B - it's been a while since I had the joy of reading your illogical ramblings. If it's their perogative to change their minds (sweet - they get two chances, no one else gets any!) why don't they get asked everything twice?
The concept of democracy in your EU raddled mind is clearly shoved in a corner along with 'sensible tax policy' and 'liberty' and probably resembles a ball of wool once my cat has been at it.
The Irish were asked once and they gave what the EU percived to be the wrong answer despite our money being used to tell them how to vote. Now millions of pounds of money we hear in the press we don't have is being used to press for a YES vote in a referendum which didn't need to take place because they have already voted once. It's deeply insulting and you should be ashamed of yourself for being such a patronising twonk.
I guess some things have to get worse before they get better.
No, it's a sad day for democracy when a vote is run and rerun until it comes up with the "right" answer.
I'm with Dan Hannan on this. Hopefully the Irish will have the sheer bloody-mindedness to vote "no" with an even bigger majority at this utter waste of taxpayers' - their - money.
Paddy Briggs,
I don't believe that even you believe that cr*p. You are saying we should respect this referendum, but not the first one?
If labour win the next election, do you think it will be fair to keep holding more elections until the Tories win?
If you can smell sh*t Paddy - it's because your nose is too close to your mouth.
@otherwise 11:13 stamp collectors form a community based on their common interest in collecting stamps, you are free to take up that interest if you like.
many of us are excluded from the "Gay Community" through no fault of our own, because you can't choose your sexuality can you?
A vote to continue the 'Tory dream' of belonging to the biggest single market Democracy in the entire Universe is a......
'Sad day'?
52 States in the USA sign up to a single constitution based on (higher?) similar Democratic principles.
Why do you want out?
..and the Tory Kaminski view is?
@ Daily Referendum
Iain is not anti-EU.
And I didn't say he was now, did I?. Are you really so illiterate and lost for coherent arguments that you have to make this stuff up?
Iain did not ask Gay men to vote for him.
I did read the article. You clearly didn't though .. or if you did, didn't want to take on the implications of what the overtly gay man said.
The Irish people have already voted and they said NO. You honestly believe that it is democratic to ignore their vote?
The vote wasn't ignored. They paid attention to the vote, made changes and the Irish people get another chance to vote.
Are they being denied the opportunity to vote 'NO' again?
Are you really so anti-democratic that you resent them having the opportunity to do that?
And you have the audacity to claim that I am a "tw*t? Pots and kettles, my poor little dear - pots and kettles.
Ho-hum, we'll soon get the chance to have a similar debate on a homegrown referendum issue - when the Scots vote narrowly 'no' to independence, only for Salmond to announce he will repeat the dose in a couple of years.
Or will the Tories try to legislate against repeat referendums ?
Iain,
All Dave has to do is say that the UK will have a referendum regardless of any outcome.
It's not rocket science is it?
The way I see it continually holding elections till you get the answer you want is democratic.
As long as its continuous and no one answer is deemed to be final!
The BBC tries to exploit differences between conservatives over Lisbon at the beginning of their conference season.
Well said, Aviad.
Although, having read the incoherent nonsense that Steve (Daily Referendum) posts on his own website, I am surprised that you even have to question his already obvious illiteracy.
That said, I have to admit that it is a bit of a poke in the eye for the Daily Hate that most of the gay men commenting over at PinkNews do actually seem to have picked up on both Iain Dale's obvious canvassing and the sweet irony of the combination of his tactics and subsequent deluded complaints of homophobia. Perhaps we gays don't actually follow the herd that the Daily Hate expects us to.
It is also interesting to note that Steve so clearly doesn't think that Iain is capable of defending himself. That doesn't say much for his confidence in Iain's capabilities as a politician.
If even Iain's own supporters have so little confidence in his abilities - which, given the spectacular nature of Iain's total annihilation in Norfolk North, can't really be much of a surprise to anyone - then God help the rest of us :)
It IS a sad day for democracy when the people of a sovereign nation are asked to vote. They vote in a way the rulers don't like, so are made to vote again. But are told: "But this time... get it right!"
The Boiling Frog said...
"I think the Irish will vote yes, however Czech President Klaus has hinted strongly he intends to hold out until the UK GE, so there's still a glimmer of hope"
I bet Camera-on will still find a way to betray Britain.
That's what the liblabcons do.
But that's ok, Dave Lightweight's going to have a referendum.
Isn't he?
Aviad: "Europhobic peeons like Iain Dale"
That's not anti-EU then? Semantics?
"The vote wasn't ignored. They paid attention to the vote, made changes and the Irish people get another chance to vote."
Bullshit, Labour are likely to lose the next election. Are you saying we should allow them to keep changing their policies and hold endless elections until we vote them back in?
"I did read the article. You clearly didn't though .. or if you did, didn't want to take on the implications of what the overtly gay man said."
You are implying that he asked for the gay vote. Did he say "If you are gay, come and vote for me? Answer... No.
At October 02, 2009 11:04 AM , Lord Snooty
The points have already been well made by Aviad and others
If this was designed to swing anyone reading onto your side of rational debating in the absence of any good points... or indeed any points at all... bloomin' good luck
Gary Elsby, rejected by stoke said...
"52 States in the USA sign up to a single constitution"
50
"based on (higher?) similar Democratic principles"
No, based on actual democratic principles; not based on the interests of the feudal European ruling class.
Daily Referendum
A few points:
I say what I say without abuse and without playground taunts - unlike you.
My opinions are mine - I don't claim superior knowledge - unlike you.
I'm a true Democrat - unlike you.
I have a life ...
Today is not a sad day for democracy. That day was when Ireland was told it would have to vote again.
Mark,
I have to agree with you that I'm not a great writer - does that make anything I have to say automatically wrong in your books? I though we Tories were supposed to be the Toffs?
RE: At October 02, 2009 9:58 AM , Anonymous GivenUp said...
As has been mentioned over a Order Order, the Irish have a chance to vote so that they can have an English EU President to rule over them.
------------
If you are referring to Bliar the megalomaniac then i think you will find Bliar is SCOTTISH not 'English'.
You see this is the problem, there are too many people who havent got a f cking CLUE what they are talking about....but think that they DO!, dangerous.
We better get a referendum HERE regardless of what the Indoctrinated morons in Ireland do!, the EUSSR knows they can rely on them to vote the 'right way', they have previous after all!.
Perhaps its finally a referendum on wether the irish are 'officially' thick or not!, thats the way im viewing it.
WE DEMAND A REFERENDUM!!!!!!!!
Nevermind that the EU is a Dictatorship....there may be a few 'EUros' in it for us!.
Irish, Scotch and Welsh small country (Region) mentality.
-------------
England’s Unique Heritage of Law Threatened by an EU Police State
http://wv7.sl.pt
Back in the EUSSR
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/2204
The Betrayal of Freedom in Europe: Back in the EUSSR
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/2783
Iain you need to remember that Ireland is bankrupt - I mean really bankrupt. They would be fools not to vote Yes.
''I have no great hopes that the Irish will do the right thing and consign this treaty to the dustbin of history, where it belongs. They thought they had done that the first time. In this referendum campaign all the vested interests have been out there issuing dire warnings about the consequences of a 'no' vote, and it seems they will get their way. If so, it will be a sad day both for democracy and the cause of national sovereignty.''
Every day that this treaty hangs over us is a sad day for democracy. France voted no, the Netherlands voted no as did the Irish. Nulabour, the Lidims and the Conservatives at the 2005 elections promised a referendum to the British voters on the Treaty. The Lisbon Treaty give or take a few words is the same treaty the French and Dutch voted down. The Irish voted the Lisbon Treaty down. We were told that if anyone voted down either treaty it would be dead but like the Terminator it keeps coming back.
This is the reality of EU democracy. Their votes count more than your votes so if you vote the wrong way they will keep asking until they get the right answer.
The EU integration is a one way street. It is important for the UK that we get a chance to vote on it because from here on in there is no going back. We are not in a 'common market', we are in a political union. We have been lied to by our politicians, who even now cannot tell us the truth about the ';project'. After the Irish vote yes, and the Czechs are brought to heel, this leaves Cameron facing a British electorate. To date we do not know what he will do because he will not tell us. I, however, can tell Cameron that unless we are promised a referendum on this Lisbon Treaty I will not be voting for the Conservative Party ever again.
If Iain Dale values democracy, as his post suggests, why is he trying to get elected as a Conservative to a parliament that will be totally powerless?
Nulabour and the Libdims have reneged on their manifesto promise saying the Lisbon Treaty is different from the Constitutional treaty
I see that the BBC Politics web-page is spinning on behalf of Tony Blair for EU president. Ahhhg!!!!
Yes or No? Will Ireland give the right answer this time?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fftV9nqbi0
RE: Anonymous said...
Alternatively you could argue that, for the first time, there will be a proper democratic vote today as last time round the campaign was just a big one-sided lie mainly from Englishmen trying to interfere with Irish autonomy.
Lisbon is right for Ireland as the majority will prove today now they've had the opportunity for a balanced and fair debate.
The EU has been the best to happen to Ireland in its history
October 02, 2009 11:00 AM
-----------
Yeah lets forget that the EU is a DICTATORSHIP! theres a few Euros in it for us!, what a PATHETIC little Region!.
Its obvious it is EUires destiny to be a feeble, subsidy drunk irrelevant little EU Region, as it is with the Scotch, Welsh and N Irish Regions, but it is NOT Englands!, we DEMAND a referendum!!!!!!!!.
EUire Says Vote YES!
Independence is Overrated!
That Daily Referendum chap is highly obnoxious. I don't understandy why his vile rantings are allowed through.
We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to have a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty.
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/Lisbon-ref/
Surely the Irish are not so easily conned? I hope the Irish have been lying to the pollsters to give the Yes camp a false sense of security.
I'm willing to bet on a No vote - if only by a small margin.
I wouldn't be surprised if third-world-type vote rigging will be in force. I'd put nothing past the EU - they break their own rules/laws constantly and are no respecters of others' laws, either.
Anonymous 9.29 AM
Errmm.. may be I missed something. democracy has already spoken in Ireland. And the EU Commission didn't like it.
But then they never do. The irony, old boy, is on you.
That's not anti-EU then? Semantics?
No - if I had meant anti-EU, then I would have said anti-EU.
Bullshit, Labour are likely to lose the next election. Are you saying we should allow them to keep changing their policies and hold endless elections until we vote them back in?
And what does that have to do with the fact that the Irish can still vote 'NO' if they want to? Talk about trying to divert attention from your own banality.
By your reasoning, and your idea of 'democracy, I suppose you would want whatever result comes out of the next general; election to be the result we are stuck with for ever .. and that we therefore never need to have another one.
You need to work harder on your banal extrapolations, Pal.
I though we Tories were supposed to be the Toffs?
LOL! Stupid enough to be easily confused with toffs, but alas no - unless 'toffs' is some sort of new code for "thicker than frozen pig-sh*t on a stick".
Not only has Ireland been conned, but the prime minister we thought we'd finally gotten rid of is about to become a president.
Is it all down to Hannan?
It seems to be that if Cameron is going to try backsliding he can't do it without Hannan's support (since he is at present the keeper of the Conservative conscience). And Hannan won't give him that support if he does backslide.
I've departed from my usual blogg ing topic to discuss this:
http://bedejournal.blogspot.com/2009/10/irish-referendum-on-lisbon-treaty.html
Am I right?
Irish Police threaten referendum monitors to back off or face arrest. HERE
Looks like a fix.
A third referendum will be required.
Much as I pray that my forefathers vote 'no', it can hardly be described as a 'sad day for democracy' when people vote on summat.
Come on, Iain: get a grip. Is it only democracy if we agree with the result?
Surely the job now is to ensure that our party pledges to give us that which the government has denied: namely, a referendum on Lisbon? What's so hard about that?
So when do we start bombing Brussels then?
This English person couldnt give a monkeys if Ireland votes yes or not, or if Scotland, Wales or N Ireland votes yes too, just keep England OUT of it!, after all England is the only country who doesnt need ANY of the above named EU 'Regions' OR the EU!.
This Constitreaty will have absolutely NO legitimacy in England and would be a total SHAM!.
I dont want a referendum on the Lisbon Constitreaty....i want, nay DEMAND a referendum on EU MEMBERSHIP!.
And the same, indoctrinated, Subsudy drunk irish want to 'rule the North' do they?.
If its a 'Yes' vote you wont even rule the 'SOUTH!'.
The rEUpublic of Brussels.
As someone with Irish, Hungarian, French and English ancestry I quite like to be told that some of the seaside coastal areas are in the same EU region as adjacent French ones.
Almost as far away from London too.
Ummmmm,,,, Iain????
People change their minds you know! Circumstances change too.
Having a vote and giving people a chance to have their say is not anti-democratic at all.
We have General Elections - nobody ever says "we shouldn't have another one - we've already had some!"
Voting = good. ISn't that a Tory mantra?!
It looks like yes
If, as everyone assumes, Ireland votes yes, this will prove to me that no-one votes on principle anymore.
Two years ago when Ireland was a Tiger economy and an 'arc of prosperity' they felt confident enough to say no the the EU 'superstate project'.
IMO, they were right to do so. I am genuinely fearful of what our EU masters have planned for us.
OK.
Everyone in Europe were peed off with the Irish as they had unimagined subsidy thrown at them and they were ungrateful.
Now that their economy is in a mess they now are going to support the EU superstate that they had previously rejected.
This is not good enough.
IMO, every nation of the EU should have a new referendum to decide if they want to be part of the EU or not.
We cannot continue with these guerilla tactics.
I honestly do not know if I would vote for, or against the EU. But, I feel that, as a nation, we need to make a decision.
For the last 20 or so years we have been an unwilling partner.
We need to make a final decision.
The antagonism that the new 'modern' Tory party has to the EU appears to be a binding foil of inappropriate politics which seems to resemble the distasteful hatred of foreigners by the BNP.
The chances of the Conservatives holding (Dave lies) a referendum of membership or of the Lisbon Treaty is nil.
The chances of a Conservative Government(I jest) winning its own question in a referendum would be nil and the greatest humiliation the Conservatives could ever suffer.
No chance could this current set up under Dave's rule win the case for 'against' or withdrawal secured via the under 35 vote.
There may be a longer history of EEC vs EU via the older generation but the globalised picture of progress totally flattens the case for the BNP line of isolation.
Who would protect us from the conditions of the single marketplace of a combined EU and who would afford us help to a protectionist USA?
Dave only fooled the conservative membership to get a job, he knows he can't fool the rest of the UK.
It's a losing position. Own up.
Gary Elsby, rejected by stoke, must be on 'medication'.
Ummmm....Anon 11.06 and the other multiple referendum fans...
would there be a second referendum if the Irish had voted Yes originally?
Has any of the Treaty been changed?
Why is the 1975 UK referendum seen as binding and the last Irish one is not?
Your argument and the argument of all Euphiles as far as I can see is that democracy means getting the answer you want.
So, to repeat: if Labour lose the Election, and don't change any of their policies, but give meaningless "assurances" to the public, it would be wholly legitimate to run the Election again 18 months later, yes?
word verification: crili. Oh the irony.
Ireland votes YES.
So will the UK anyday of the week.
I think the answer is simple - I would be happy to continue EU memebership/governance once the accounts have been signed off. What right thinking government could give tax payers money to an organisation with such poor financial controls? No referendum required -it's the government's duty.
Should buy us 20 years on current form.
I guess Tories struggle with the definition of democracy.
The day Thatcher lauded Pinochet for "bringing democracy to Chile" is a prime example
Congratulations. When do you and Nigel Farage get over to Dublin to collect your medals from Biffo for guaranteeing a better than expected yes vote by your meddling in Irish politics?
An excellent result for Ireland, Europe and Great Britain - Iain, you must be over the moon!
A good day for Ireland
A good day for Europe
...and a Great day for Democracy!
Hooray!!!!
A good day for Ireland and Europe. A resounding YES. Nigel and the UKIP, thank you....take your mousy face to Warsaw and thank you for your meddling in this referendum!
The Irish never have got the hang of this independence lark. Mass provision of troops for the British Army as if nothing had happened. No passport controls at the docks. A built-in one-for-one arrangement with sterling until into the 1980s. So many of them living over here that they have always been able to vote and stand in our elections. And much more besides.
They only went in because we were going to, so economically they couldn’t not. They were only able to keep out of NATO because they knew that, with our not insignificantly Irish Armed Forces as much as anything else, we were always going to protect them anyway. They joined the Euro because, in the early Blair years, they thought that we might.
The spectator sees more of the game. The Irish can see how signed up to European federalism we are. And that is why they are. Only more honestly. They certainly wouldn’t mind Tony Blair as President anything like as much as people in his own country would. Sinn Féin has always called Dublin governments “British governments by proxy”. Well, that was clearly what people wanted. With the EU now Britain’s government, having it headed by an Englishman, Scotsman, or whatever it is that he is (”Simply British”?) is anything but an argument against it to them. It is more like the natural order.
Those who feel strongly about a distinctive, and so far as possible self-governing, Ireland are like those who feel strongly about a Catholic Ireland, or a Gaelic Ireland, or an Ireland which cherishes the lore of Irish Nationalism: the only such Ireland now is within the United Kingdom, where these things are actively encouraged economically, socially, culturally and politically. In the Republic, they are being systematically suppressed. With, it transpires today, enthusiastic public support.
If the EU post-Lisbon treaty is that brilliant why is the referendum not held in each country? The EU is ruled by commissars and is the worst "backroom fixing " shop in the world.
American president is elected after going through gruel primaries. The post- LisbonEU president is appointed by a "backroom fixing" by a cabal consisting of Merkel, Sarkozy et. al. Those who ridicule us who question this integration by a parliament majority dictat
(we the citizens never voted here, but the corrupt MPs did) must be really ashamed. I am not an Eurosceptic but this charade of
fixing the EU president makes me question this EU mad dream. If Blair becomes the EU president, all Cameron has to do is say in his election manifesto that he will fight Brussels and he will get a landslide victory.
I am very surprised the way Ireland voted, but they are desperate because of the economy.
Gary Elsby, rejected by Stoke, stoke said...
"Ireland votes YES.
So will the UK anyday of the week."
So, the NuLab traitors betrayed their promise to hold a referandum only because they thought they would win it?
Ha ha ha ha ha
Iain,
This is a foregone concusion -the European Central Bank has funded Irish banks to the tune of 77% GDP equivalent. No-one is going to allow a scenario to evolve where these loans are called in,or even the threat of that and bankrupt a member state,hence the enormous pressure for a yes vote. I am sure Ireland will get its come uppance at a later date - our EU masters have long memories.
@David Linsey:
1. EUR created by Maastricht 1992. UK opts out, Ireland does not. 5 years later Tony Blair becomes PM. Not sure how your take on it tallies with that.
2. "Mass provision of troops for the British Army". Not exactly government policy though. British Army doesn't ristricted enrollment to its own nationals, so some Irish join up. Whats the big deal?
3. Yes there was an common travel area (and common voting), the position of teh North in the Irish constitution made it somewhat necssary (I was always suprised that the UK went along with it, but thats a different matter).
4. "Those who feel strongly about a distinctive, and so far as possible self-governing, Ireland are like those who feel strongly about a Catholic Ireland, or a Gaelic Ireland, or an Ireland which cherishes the lore of Irish Nationalism: the only such Ireland now is within the United Kingdom, where these things are actively encouraged economically, socially, culturally and politically. In the Republic, they are being systematically suppressed."
Thats just, well, peculiar. I'm aware from your post that you live in the UK (and assume you are British), but it doesn't sound like you've ever set foot in Ireland.
@Paul:
"The European Central Bank has funded Irish banks to the tune of 77% GDP equivalent. "
Firstly, equivalent to what? The ECB deals in EUR, we deal in EUR. Or do you mean PPP? Which would still be peculiar since it would be PPP compared to what? Anyway, more to the point, the ECB has funded Irish Banks to the tune of E142bn? Really? You want to back that up?
Finally to all: Does anybody actually think that weird little word rearrangements (EUSSR, rEUpublic etc) actually add anything other then making the post look like a kook?
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