It really is quite astonishing that Home Office Ministers are using the scandal of 10,000 passports being issued illegally to say that this reinforces the needs for ID cards. Surely anyone with any sense of logic could see that it means exactly the opposite?
The U-turn from the Tories is incredible.
It seems "The Day of The Jackal" has a lot to answer for, for making everyone aware of the easiest way to blag a fake passport. I wonder if Freddie Forsyth will find room in his Express column to discuss this issue? If there's anyone left who's actually able to make it through to page 12 of that "paper" then let me know.
The only difference with ID cards is that they will be (a) much more expensive; and (b) much more widely trusted and so more dangerous.
I recently needed a new passport and because I've had three bank cards stolen in the post I didn't want to risk the hassle of losing my passport and decided to apply in person. I was astonished to discovered that the Passport and ID section of the Home Office in London is run entirely by Nigerians. There was not a single white person in the entire building at any level. Not only that, but their English language skills were absolutely dire, or possibly non-existent in some cases where they didn't respond when spoken to. I would't be at all surprised if the Passport Office is found to be run by illegal immigrants.
The ID card is at the centre of the EU plan to secure its external borders. They have been trying to implement it in other coountries outside EU who are the source of illegal immigration
You obviously know David Davis well. Having championed the Tories 'libertarian' stance in opposing ID cards, why does he not oppose the heart of the scheme, the NIR and plans for black box trackers in cars too?
How can you oppose ID cards but not the NIR and car trackers too?
I emailed David, and asked a straight question, but no reply.
Can you please confirm the Tory position on the NIR and in-car trackers as the silence is deafening at the moment?
Anonymous, what U-turn? With credit to David Davis, the Conservatives have opposed ID cards at every stage, voting against them from the first reading of the bill. If the Liberal Democrats had bothered to show up, the measure would have been killed.
Chad, I agree. The Conservatives need to make their position clear on these issues, and speak out.
usual new labour rubbish.
Nigerians are in general corrupt, it is just their way of doing things. A few years ago i was discussing welfare fraud with a person who was employed as a consultant for a london inner city council, trying to trace housing benefit fraud. Well, I might get prosecuted for repeating the things she was saying about the nigerian staff.
My wife is Nigerian, and she wont have anything to do with them either.
Ponder on this
"An estimated 10,000 passports were issued to fraudulent applicants in 12 months, the Home Office has said." and "Home Office minister Joan Ryan said the IPS had 16,500 fraudulent applications during the 12 month period, 10,000 of which went undetected."
Then ask yourself. "How do they know that figure?" "How do you count an undetected fraudulent application?"
All these figures must be estimates so the real figure could be higher or lower. So the government are saying we think we may have given 10,000 people false identities last year who can use these identities to defraud the rest of you!
Anonymous, what U-turn?
I think that comes from the likes of Hague who agree with ID cards in principle but oppose the current costings.
Obviously, this leaves the Tories room to then support the scheme again if in power, when they are in charge of the costings.
That is why the silence on the NIR and in-car trackers is so worrying and needs urgent, unequivocal clarification because as it stands, it would appear that the Tories support the NIR and in-car trackers, and amongst some senior Shadow Cabinet members, only oppose ID cards on current costings.
If Davis is not prepared to clearly state that the Tories will tear up the NIR and in-car tracker scheme, then it is fair to say they'll introduce them just as Labour plans.
Since when did logic come into this?
For that matter, since when has this 'Government' done anything logical?
I have worked in Nigeria since 1981. I know the country and its people. I know what I'm talking about. Nigerians are the most corrupt people on Earth. Nothing in this country works because money, goods or equipment is stolen. Systems that are run by expats do function. There is no rail system working anymore. Chinese are trying to reinstate that. No land line telephone system works. Expat-run cell phones allow comms. The oil industry is run by a back bone of expats. The electricity network is dire. Cable is stolen and illegal taps steal the electricity. You can obtain anything here by paying someone off. Passports,tickets, jobs, anything. So one might ask the question. Why employ people to run your country's affairs when they so blatantly ruin their own country's affairs and infra-structure?
Check out Transparency International's Corruption Perceptions Index. You'll find Nigeria near the bottom.
Yeah and the only reason they're not right at the bottom is because they bribed someone.
NO. They are also saying interviews for all applicants. I'm again it. But this story is wrong.
Iain is right. That is exactly how I saw this issue, as condemnation of the ID scheme. Trust the fools in government to reverse the logic.
I had a girlfriend who was from Africa. What she pointed out is that the corruption in Nigeria is cultural. In this country corrupt people are looked down on by most people as crooks. Nigerian culture looks positively on people who get as much as possible with as little work as possible.
So do you think that corruption amongst Nigerians is protected in "multicultural" Britain, as their cultural right?
Chad: you are the only person I have come across to raise the question of the Conservatives and whether they will scrap their inheritance of socialist surveillance - the NIR, etc, etc. ID cards are just a detail. But if you are not on the NIR you will not get a passport. The Govt should be put against a wall and shot while the Tory Govt-in-waiting look on.
I think the HO is pushing the issue of biometric verification vs the "photo signed by a JP" quaintness that I for one sorely miss.
Frankly we should be able to use a multiplicity of ID providers - our banks pretty much do that now.
p.s. if the passport office is entirely Nigerian, then surely it should be investigated for Racism and lack of diversity, with individuals hiring based on racial bias disqualified from State Employment.
What's desperately needed is a centralised Death Certificate registrar.
This will prevent the "Day of the Jackal"-type passport fraud that no doubt is still going.
If it could be extended internationally it would also prevent the UK's national and private pension schemes slowly going bust.
People can live for ever if you don't report the death of a family member when he's abroad. This fraud will slowly bust YOUR pension scheme long before any of us get any money from them!
Our rulers are not being illogical, they are being Orwellian and have been so for a long time. 1984 is their Bible.
This figure of 10,000 is an ESTIMATE of successful fake applications for passports.
The passport office believe that they receive a total of 16,500 fake applications each year.
This means that 100,000 fraudulently obtained UK passports are in circulation. More if previous fraudulently obtained passports have been successfully renewed.
errm, if the Passport Office really is "entirely Nigerian" (which seems a little unlikely, but...) then shouldn't every letter, fax and email sent by it be checked out for the telltale phrase "Urgent & Confidential Business Proposal"?
The logic comes into it, Iain, when those thieving bastards who stole the 10,000 passports come to exchange them for the new ID Cards. Then we'll catch 'em!
BTW, 20,000 of the new ID Cards have already gone missing, you wouldn't like to help me in locating them would you?
I've got them 30,00 missing ID cards. Fell orf of the back of a 'Ome Office lorry, didn't they? I can do you one cheap, squire. Can't tell 'em from the real thing, honest.
I am having a multiple identity crisis...do you think I can get a passport for each one ?
What's desperately needed is a centralised Death Certificate registrar.
Why - most Death Records are now computerised and the ONS Central records certainly are........but how are you going to match ?
Currently the Passport Office shares photgraph data with DVLA and supposedly uses Credit Agencies to check addresses.....but no other country issues Centralised Drivers Licenses or Passports and then has open borders.
The British State has collapsed and is nothing more than a Potemkin Village
Not only that, but their English language skills were absolutely dire,
that is what makes you suspect they went to an ILEA Comprehensive.......oh Diversity.....
Pardon my language here but its shit like this that really pisses me off.
We're relentlessly lectured by these New Labour cretins they they know best.
We tell them they don't know jack but on they go.
They force through legislation with their huge electoral mandate (sic) and insist we owe them our private information.
Then? Then they send thousands of passports out to criminals.
I really wish they'd line up every single Nu-Labourite and shoot them.
For the love of god and the good of us all, get rid of these useless vermin!
UKevents: I take it that you are not a New Labour supporter then?
Jailhouselawyer: Is anyone?!
Pass. Or, the jury's still out on this one...
Take Your Pick.
All in good time!
If not in the cash for honours affair, there's always the Hague -
I'll try that link again!
What's desperately needed is a centralised Death Certificate registrar
Why - most Death Records are now computerised and the ONS Central records certainly are........but how are you going to match?
Have you read/seen the film "Day of the Jackal"?
A false, but legit passport is obtained by
1. finding the grave of somebody roughly your age
2. make a note of his/her details
3. apply for a copy of said persons birth certificate
4. use said copy to apply for passport
5.rely on fact that passport office does not check death register (there isn't one)
Not sure what the ONS has to do with id fraud.
Indeed I'm not sure what the ONS has to do with accurate population stats anymore: the ONS believes that the population of the UK has just gone above 60 million (a figure that relies on Census questions being answered honestly/at all).
However, one UK supermarket believes that the population of the UK may now be as much as 80 million. (This would explain high house prices and odd store trading patterns that do not "fit" ONS figures)
Yes, if the ID card people are filled with people willing to give out fake ones for cash then the system will be just as currupt as the passport system. Methinks a good start would be better background checks on whomever is working in the passport office.
Anon @ 1:17
I wouldn't get too worried about being persecuted for your opinion of Nigerians. You should hear what black South Africans say about the buggers. Nad other West Africans too for that matter.
Let's just say, Guardian readers would be somewhat shocked at the degree of political incorrectness.
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