Monday, April 30, 2007

The Problem with English Devolution

I'm very depressed by many of the posts in the previous thread. Why is is that people can rationally discuss Scottish devolution and independence, but whenever you mention English devolution or independence you're immediately accused of being a closet racist or BNP sympathiser? This is a subject climbing up the political agenda. It isn't going to go away.


Ralph said...

It's the product of ten years of Labour running the education system, better to slander than think.

JohnJo said...

Iain, quite right and well done. It's nothing but prejudice and it's a disgrace. Shame on those who made those comments....they need to think about why they are so prejudiced against the English. Shame on them. Shame.

Old BE said...

Yes it's a ridiculous scenario. The Scots are allowed to debate the issue because their nation is "oppressed" by the evil English but the English aren't allowed to discuss their own independence.

The word "racist!" is thrown at people that don't toe the PC line at all times.

Newmania said...

You can discuss it sensibly and it quite clearly has nothing to do with racism, UKIP or the BNP. Some measure of extra parliamentary discontent should be expressed because the political elites are not positioned so as to give the English what the transparently want.
I really wouldn`t worry about a few loose nuts it is a discussion that everyone has been been having for a long time and we are reaching a crucila point with the local elections.
I would like everyone to stop being trivial attention seeking and otherwise posturing for effect . You may look at my posts for an example of the perfect blend of good natured bandinage and feverish poltical imtelligence.

It is my gift and my curse

Alan Douglas said...

Iain, I agree. In this game, one simply has to ignore (and/or delete) anyone posting under anonymous. I they can't show their faces they deserve no recognition from the rest of us.

Alan Douglas

Anonymous said...

English Parliament/ Scottish Independence, would stuff Labour virtually for ever, I'm all for it

Anonymous said...

This is a life-or-death issue for Labour - of course their supporters will resort to slander!

dizzy said...

It is quite bizarre.

Anonymous said...

Are the police ready "To defend themselves" like they did with the Countryside Alliance?

Anonymous said...

Ralph @ 2:06

Unfortunately, the lefties have been running much of our education for decades.

Anonymous said...

I have been reading political blogs for some months now and the dearth of serious political analysis on the left is depressing. Often they simply resort to vulgar abuse.

Moreover (and this makes me smile) many of them are still banging on about how evil Margaret Thatcher was. They have learned nothing and forgotten nothing.

Liam Murray said...

I quite agree that the 'racist' / 'BNP' slurs are beneath contempt and on level I wish the march well.

The note of caution I would sound is that moans about scottish MP's dominance in the cabinet and hysterical nonsense about diluted 'english' identity is playing right into the hands of the SNP up here north of the border.

I'm as aprehensive as the next Tory about PM Gordon Brown but he's a UK MP elected to a UK parliament - end of story. Churchill once sat for Dundee for heavens sake! Let's not add fuel to the nationalist fire just because the current crop of celtic socialists running the shop aren't to our political tastes. The same constitutional arrangement (excluding devolution which, granted, is a significant exclusion) delivered 70+ years of Conservative government so some perspective please...

Anonymous said...

Iain - it's simply smears from NuLab supporters and trolls terrified of the electoral implications for them if they lose their inbuilt celtic MPs. It makes an English Labour government much harder for them to achieve.
English devolution and English Nationalism has nothing to do with the BNP, UKIP or racism in general. It's clear why those who smear by association do so....

Martin Curtis said...

Equality is supposed to be a hot, politically correct issue.

Everyone who feels there is an equality issue in terms of hte Governance of England has a right to raise it.

Man in a Shed said...

Turning Britain into a federal state, with home governments may be about the only way of saving the UK.

An English parliament and government is an absolute requirement of such a settlement.

Devolution for just the Celtic fringes makes the break up of the UK inevitable.

Anonymous said...

Is it because we arn't CELTS??? Perhaps we should start an Anglo-Saxons for ever thing! Not that it would work, because we are all mongrels. Heinz 57 rules.

Anonymous said...

Absolutely Iain. The English want a fair deal.

It's one thing for the English to stand against other countries but that should NOT be confused with the English standing up for themselves.

Colin D said...

The bottom line is you can be a murderer,rapist,Paedophile,child abuser whatever & some idiot will spring to their defense. example, Longford!!. directly a criticism is made of the PC brigade the shout of Racist is heard. So what is so very wrong with being proud of one's heritage & saying so. Bull shine is all get from those lefties & the tories are trying to follow in their wake. Independence for Dover & england.

Chris Paul said...

No one accused you of being a BNP sympathiser did they Iain? People thought/think the March would be an excuse for the creeps to hit the streets alongside you and yours.

Very different from the charge you are reacting to. And unlike that one which is clearly false it is probably true.

The left, and particularly the Labour Left, have a problem with our very own nutters taking over valid protests with the beyond-the-pale.

Clearly one can be anti-war without being pro-Hezbollah. Clearly too one can be pro-England without being pro-BNP.

My blog will not intentionally promote an anti-war March which is to be dominated or hijacked by fundamentalists or nihilists. The question for yourselves is whether this march you're promoting is going to be your analogue of that or not.

Anonymous said...

Sorry Iain, I'm a Conservative and sometime fan of your blog but feel you are being a hypocrite on this matter.

Whenever any issue relating to Scotland, devolution, John Reid, Gordon Brown or almost any subject in general is mentioned in your blog, the comments quickly fill up with hateful comments about the Scots (and, less frequently, the Welsh). Over the last few months we've seen Scottish people described in the comments in your blog posts as parasites, scum, jocks, cockroaches, scroungers, racists and bigots, alcoholics, and all manner of offensive comments. You say (quite rightly), that you don't tolerate homophobic comments but you seem perfectly happy to tolerate all manner of bile and hate-filled rhetoric against the Celts.

It's a real shame, because it spoils what is an informative and entertaining blog. I think you also need to consider whether keeping in with the English Democrat nutters who regularly flood Conservative blogs with this nonsense is worth the damage you are doing to yourself and the Conservative Party by encouraging this nasty behaviour. Remeber, you've admitted previously in this blog that you have family in Scotland. Do you think they would be happy to read some of the things you're allowing to be posted about them on this blog? And considering your best buddy Christine Constable has said that David Cameron shouldn't be Prime Minister because he is "Scottish", do you not think that your mates in the English Democrats will soon turn on you for the same sin.

After all, you are "Iain" with two "i"s. Sounds a little Scottish to me!! ;-)

Anonymous said...

I agree. Why is being proud to be Scottish and Welsh fine, but if your English people assume you must have be a skinhead and have a pit bull.

My knowledge of history might not be perfect, but when Britain was at the height of her powers would it be correct to say that internally the town and cities had an awful lot more power than they do now?

In which case is taking power away from Westminister really part of a NuLab plot? Or might the country benefit from it?

Anonymous said...

This is a perfect example of a meme that has been artificially generated & now has a life of its own. Celtic devolution, and the whole idea of the Celts as a separate race (which is bollocks, incidentally) is OK. English devolution is intrinsically racist, despite the fact that there has never been such a thing as an English race.

The existence of this meme allows instant suppression of debate. The "Immigration control = racism" connection is mauch the same.

It's not Newspeak, but Orwell would have recognised it's nature.

James Burdett said...

A change in the constitutional settlement for England is an inevitability. I would say more so if the Scottish have an executive pushing for Independence. The fact of the matter is that England used to subsidise the Celtic fringe in return for pooled decision making was broadly fair. Now we have separate decision making for Scotland and Wales, pooled decisions for England and England subsidising countries that are now more equal in the Union.

England needs to be in a position to make its own decisions for itself, with pooled decisions on areas that are of Union import, and most controversially no subsidies for anyone. That way all parts of the UK will be on an equal footing and seen to be on an equal footing.

Anonymous said...

accused of being a closet racist or BNP sympathiser?

It is because they are frightened that the mother ship might stop sending supplies to those in the Celtic Fringe dinghies.....

If England no longer had a Cabinet filled with Secretaries of State for Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales PLUS Scots Cabinet Ministers for English Departments of State; they might find themselves having to paddle their own canoes

David Anthony said...

Isn't it a fact that England is being damaged by not having a strong nationalist party?

Anonymous said...

There might not be anything wrong with discussing it now and it might not be against the law but if the idea gets too popular then NuLab will soon create a new law aginst it!

Anonymous said...

You're quite right Iain. Such accusations are as childish as, say, the antics planned for the demo you're pushing.

I don't happen to agree with you on the issue of an English Parliament, but it would be great to see the issue treated maturely - on both sides.

Oh, hang on, this is politics. Not much hope of seeing anything treated maturely...

Anonymous said...

The people who have made comments suggesting that English independence cannot even be discussed are the enemies of everything we hold dear in this country - perhaps they should go and live in Salmond's independent Scotland.

Anonymous said...

Iain, stand back and read your previous post again.
"The march will be led by a hearse pulled by two horses, carrying the symbolic coffin of England draped in the flag of St. George, flanked by representatives of English organisations carrying placards depicting the many examples of bias and anti English discrimination."
If there was such a march in Scotland or Wales using these kind of symbols I would have reacted the same way.
But Justice for England when you have the majority of the population and quite rightly the largest representation in Westminster? The voters of England will ultimately decide the next government and this just looks and sounds like petty nationalism of the worse kind.
Go on the march and look around you and see some of the political parties which will be represented.
Andrew's comment on the previous thread sums it up better than I can.
If people want to change the way the system works, then they need to VOTE for change. If they whip up this kind of nationalism and rhetoric then my worry is it might let a genie out of the bottle with consequences both North and South of the border, not for the Union but simple for those who choose to move around the country.
On a simple holiday down South last year my children were subjected as was I to a volley of abuse simple because of our accent.

Anonymous said...

I would question what our generation has achieved, on behalf of our country, that makes us think we have the right to break up the United Kingdom? Braver men than us fell in its defence.

Let us take, for example, the London Scottish (territorial volunteers). Only 50 of the 1,000 men who had left England on 15th September 1914 were still with the battalion on the 1st July 1916. On that day, 80% of the battalion were killed or wounded at Gommecourt, fighting a diversionary action.

If they died for it, Sir, I would say that for better or worse we must live with it.

Old BE said...

Churchill once sat for Dundee for heavens sake!

Once was a long time ago. Now we have a situation where a Scots MP will proposed legislation for England which won't affect his own constituency.

That is the point, not that the MPs themselves are Scottish by birth.

Colin D said...

david anthony sums it up in one!

Anonymous said...

I don't get it either. One of the results of devolution here in Wales is that we don't blame the English anymore, we've got our own politicians for that now.

There's no reason on Earth why the English shouldn't be able to have a rational debate on devolution or even independence.

Even Unionists should be thinking about just what kind of Union they want. Canada and Australia have their own models to offer, and even us Welsh Nats would be more than happy with Dominion status.

Drew said...

I'm grateful to you for highlighting this, Iain.

The people of England are widely discriminated against by the "UK" Government. I don't know why, but it is happening. The march is open to all the people of England and is NOT a racist exercise. When last I heard the BNP (BRITISH national party) had a Welshman as its leader. Is that to say that the Welsh are all racists? Of course not.

Please keep highlighting the democratic deficit and efforts to right it.

The people writing in here screeching "racist!" are not liberals. They simply seek to cloud the issues and keep the people of England divided and abused by the "UK" State.

Anonymous said...

There is a party which has a solution to devolution in general whilst keeping the Union intact......

Anonymous said...

I agree w' John Bull. Salmond and his ilk are not fit to pass comment on the union, let alone break it. I'll have no truck with the nationalists of any part of the UK.
Together we stand.

Anonymous said...

I'm sure the suggestion that you are all foaming mouthed racists is a crude overstatement.

It might be true that the English are struggling with their identity, but your description of this rally makes it sound like you've got someone in mind to blame for this.

It is that combination of nationalism and a urge to blame that worries many people - it is not a situation that has provided much joy throughout history. And let's face it, it does tend to be something that gets the juices flowing in people of your particular political colour. I am curiously thinking of Andrew Roberts at the moment, and his deeply unpleasant form of nationalism.

My concern is who you are intending to blame for the apparent threat to your identity and what proof do you have that they are at fault?

My other concern is that some of you are naive to expect that others on this rally wouldn't like to sling a brick through a synagogue window, or give an asylum seeker a beating.

Don't get yourselves in with a bad lot, because David Cameron will get angry, and I'm sure he's got a reeeally bad temper. Look at what happened to that racist Mercer... be warned.

Theo Spark said...

This is why Freedom of Speech is not always a good thing. It allows the idiots on the left to spout their drivel.

The Military Wing Of The BBC said...

A separate England means a Tory England. Zanu-Labour know this. So fill the blogosphere with sham comments on people wanting English independence being akin to Nazis and the Klu Klux Klan.

Such nonsense will back-fire: A tongue-in-cheek "proud to be racist" backlash can't be too far away.

Wrinkled Weasel said...

Having lived in Wales and Scotland I am very aware of anti-English attitudes. And the fact remains that you can be as proud as you like to be Welsh and likewise Scottish, but somehow being proud to be English is dismissed as racism or zenophobia.

Englishness is under threat from Europe and from within. You do not have to be a right-wing extremist to know that or to want to do something about it. We English have a heritage, gained from a long and tortuous journey to democracy. It is right to defend that democracy and it is right to assert our culture. It is also right to assert that when in England one should do as the English do.

Old BE said...

John Bull: those brave men were fighting for good (democracy and freedom) against evil and tyranny, not for the British constitution against any change ever. Those men were British but these days many feel predominantly Scottish/English/Welsh and believe that decisions affecting them are better made closer to home. And of course the devolution "settlement" doesn't give the English the impression that there is an equal union.

It's surely better to split peacefully than have a bloody mess by another route.

Anonymous said...

Our "long and tortuous road to democracy" has involved more than enough torture for much of the world.

The things we have to be proud of are overshadowed by the shame of what we did in the name of England.

Apologists and revisionists are no better than the skinheaded scum with the St Georges flag.

These symbols should have been burnt, but victor's justice has allowed us to go on waving flags of bloody oppression in the faces of those we have harmed.

Get off your dung-hills and face up to the truth of what England is, or take the twelve bore into the shed and do us all a favour.

Anonymous said...



(1) They are lefties who do not like the idea "English" identity because it is too powerful a force - against their own interests - to risk unleashing

(2) They are lefties who are trying to paint the Conservatives with the same brush as UKIP/BNP for political ends

(3) They are anonotw*ts who are trying to provoke you

AND, judging by the timing and nature of the comments, they are probably the same 2/3 people.

They're pr*cks who should be ignored.

Anyway, this whole English patriotism is all a bit "chicken&egg" anyway. If anyone who supports it is called a fascist, no moderates will ever support it and so it will stay the realm of fascists. If moderates risk joining it, yes, they will be initially tarred by the same brush, but ultimately, it will become a respectable and legitimate political position.

I suggest that it is *this* eventuality - making English patriotism respectable - which the lefties are scared of, for reason (1), and they will slur, barrack, insult, slander, attack and do ANYTHING necessary to put moderates off joining it.

They should be ignored.

Tony said...

Iain, you are always going to find trolls who jump into comment threads bandying around words like racist when English devolution gets a mention.

These are people who are too stupid to understand that England is the only country in Europe without its own parliament; and one of the few in the world that allows politicians, from another country, to legislate on matters only affecting the English.

These are the same people who believe our national flag is a symbol of oppression and that we owe the world an apology for pretty much anything. The fact they mainly do it anonymously should be a clue to any reader that they are just trying to get a bite.

Alwyn ap Huw said...

If it is true that the BNP slurs are from left wingers I find that odd. There are plenty (too many for my liking) left wingers in Plaid and the SNP. Why can't you be English, Patriotic and Left Wing?

Wouldn't the best way of ensuring that the rally isn't hi-jacked by extremists be for many thousands of reasonable English patriots(left, right and center) to turn out and give their support?

Anonymous said...

I really coudn't comment. I'm English.

Anonymous said...

Despite Labour's dominance in Scotland it shouldn't be forgotten that 50 years ago the Tories were the main party. Who's to say they won't be again in another 50 years? I just think this attempt to get rid of Scotland is shortsighted, although I agree that the repression of a benign English nationalism is foolish and unjust. I'm all for making St George's Day a bank holiday but believe that English nationalism is compatible with Unionsim.

On a more trivial point, I prefer the Union Jack to the St George's Cross.

"These symbols should have been burnt, but victor's justice has allowed us to go on waving flags of bloody oppression in the faces of those we have harmed."

Who let the Marxist out of the museum?

Anonymous said...

"Ashamed to be English"

Don't worry, we're ashamed that you're English too.

Tell you what, if you're so ashamed, why don't you go into the shed with your 12-bore and take your own advice?

Or, better still, I'll do it for you ;-)

Anonymous said...

The detractors may not have read the following:

"Despite the political, economic, and cultural legacy that has perpetuated its name, however, England no longer officially exists as a country and enjoys no separate political status within the United Kingdom."
(Britannica Concise Encyclopedia)

The English haven't begun complaining yet!

Anonymous said...

When you consider that it was NuLabour that gave us the 'West Lothian' question then it is a bit rich for them to complain about the rise of English Nationalism.

What with the ever intrusive EU I think that a deep swell of feeling has come to the surface. If the Tories cannot see this and act on it then they deserve to have UKIP snatching defeat for them in marginal constituencies.

Little Black Sambo said...

(a) There is no such thing as a "Celt".
(b) "I am curiously thinking of Andrew Roberts at the moment, and his deeply unpleasant form of nationalism." Explain!

Anonymous said...

Nick Griffin is not Welsh! He's an outsider from London.

IanPJ said...

Unfortunately people are not paying attention. England as a nation state if finished. Blair is making sure of that.

Under the new World order, European branch, Scotland, Wales and NI will each be a European Region.

England however will be split into 9 regions, that why Blair cannot give England a parliament of its own.
see the map.

Blair no longer has the power to give us a parliament, Brussels does.

Anonymous said...

ed @ 4:30

At a time when men from all parts of our country sacrificed their lives for one another and for us, to be 'English' meant more than a description of where one had been born. I will quote a famous Welshman on the subject (recognised as a 'national' hero, indeed, by the Welsh Assembly Government):

'I went up the Tigris with one hundred Devon Territorials, young, clean, delightful fellows, full of the power of happiness and of making women and children glad. By them one saw vividly how great it was to be their kin, and English.' TE Lawrence

And when Rupert Brooke (a poet of the same generation) wrote the following, I would suggest his words were intended for all on our isles:

'If I should die, think only this of me:
That there's some corner of a foreign field
That is for ever England. There shall be
In that rich earth a richer dust concealed;
A dust whom England bore, shaped, made aware,
Gave, once, her flowers to love, her ways to roam,
A body of England's, breathing English air,
Washed by the rivers, blest by suns of home.'

This is my understanding of what it means to be 'English'. It is more than a birthplace (and it was not mine). I would suggest, Sir, that if this is what those who fell for this country believed in; then I, for one, will gladly subscribe to those same values.

Anonymous said...

annabel, I'm afraid you are talking a piece of commonplace nonsense.

As has been established by Prof Stephen Oppenheimer's recent book,
"The Origins of the British: A Genetic Detective Story", the English are an ancient people with a language and culture that dates from the Neolithic period, the same as the Celtics. The only part of England which was ever Celtic is Cornwall, because the Celts came from SW Europe and not Central Europe as had been incorrectly believed and were not racially cleansed out of England by the Anglo-Saxons, who never existed as an identifiable race.
So it is high time that the government on their forms, and the BBC and the rest of the media recognise us, as they are apparently prepared to recognise absolutely everybody elso who is living in our country.

Anonymous said...

There is no such thing as a "Celt".

Incorrect. Technically a "Celt" is anyone who belongs to the Celtic linguistic family. Anyhoo, genetic and cultural origins aren't what is under discussion here.

Anonymous said...

And the official Conservative Party policy is...?

Thought so.

Just trying to keep us small 'c' conservatives happy by throwing us a bone to fight over with the NuLab rabble, eh, Iain?

Anonymous said...

Ashamed to be English said:

The things we have to be proud of are overshadowed by the shame of what we did in the name of England...

Get off your dung-hills and face up to the truth of what England is, or take the twelve bore into the shed and do us all a favour.

This is such wicked nonsense.

Around 90% of English people are descended from countless generations of poor rural labourers. The vast majority of our ancestors were never in the services and never benefited in any shape or form from slavery, colonialism or exploitation of anyone.

The following refers to Essex labourers, it would have been true of all rural workers across the length and breadth of England for many hundreds of years:

"Life for the Essex labourer is a bad as it can be. He toils like a slave, lives like a pig and all too often dies like a dog, with nothing to look forward to other than an old age of rheumatism and misery in the workhouse."

Essex Chronicle 1860

How dare you slur such decent, hard working English people who harmed no one in all their lives! In doing so, you are no better than the people who exploited them for their own purposes - because that's exactly what you are doing.

The majority of the people of England are good people and we don't deserve to have users like you living among us. Iy's people like you that I'm ashamed of.

If you hate England so much, why stay here, why don't you leave?

Auntie Flo'

Anonymous said...

Putting aside history for a moment, the test should be what organisations we need for the future?

Economic efficiency and effective clout in a shrinking world suggest that the regulation of economic activity, environmental management and the foreign affairs and defence is best done by aligning the largest number of communities that can be persuaded to cooperate. The delivery of civil society and services works best in small units where there can be effective feedback between the providers and consumers.

Rationality would suggest the big regulatory tasks should go the EU (provided we can create effective democratic control), and the delivery of society and service should go to smaller cohesive societies.

Westminster is the problem. Too small and already emaciated to have a real role in the big world, too big to deliver daily service to the people. To make progress Westminster has to go, and if the turkey don't vote for Christmas then they will have to have to send for Bernard Matthews.

The Scots, Welsh and Irish have the advantage of being effective units for local delivery. Good luck to them if they want to go alone.

England remains too large and too diverse in attitudes, aspiration and needs to be managed as one unit, so what is to be done?

Which leaves me with a problem. What happens if John Prescott had the right answer?


Anonymous said...

Vlads friend need not worry, the chances of someone with a brain so small he cant even create a simple English sentence being correct is so diminishingly small as to be statistically irrelevant.
Historically, the means for the governance of this country was through councils in their localities. Westminster was the national government therefore did meddle in Health, Welfare, Education, Planning etc and we were a great nation and Socialism and all its attendant evils had not been invented.

Anonymous said...

As a Welsh republican I'm all for England being an independent state and quite happy for Wales to take it's chances without any of these hand-outs we're supposed to be getting from London. Roll on the day.

Anonymous said...

Vlad said:

Rationality would suggest the big regulatory tasks should go the EU (provided we can create effective democratic control), and the delivery of society and service should go to smaller cohesive societies.

One small factor you neglect to mention, Vlad, is the substantial number of us who are sick to the back teeth of the corrupt EU gravy train and all of those with their snouts in its trough. Nothing will convince us that this will ever be democratic.

Does a referendum for the people of England fit into this rational governance scheme? If not, it aint democratic, is it? And if so, the idea falls at the first hurdle because, first chance we get, the people of England are pulling out of the EU madhouse.

Auntie Flo'

Anonymous said...

Woops, sorry for calling you Vlad, Vlad's friend

Auntie Flo'

Anonymous said...

Subject: A Lesson from Australia !!!

Take heed from "Down Under" :
Perhaps the Aussies have something here ?

Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia, as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks.

A day after a group of mainstream Muslim leaders pledged loyalty to Australia and her Queen at a special meeting with Prime Minister John Howard, he and his Ministers made it clear that extremists would face a crackdown. Treasurer Peter Costello, seen as heir apparent to Howard, hinted that some radical clerics could be asked to leave the country if they did not accept that Australia was a secular state, and its laws were made by parliament. "If those are not your values, if you want a country which has Sharia law or a theocratic state, then Australia is not for you", he said on National Television.

"I'd be saying to clerics who are teaching that there are two laws governing people in Austral ia: one the Australian law and another Islamic law that is false. If you can't agree with parliamentary law, independent courts, democracy, and would prefer Sharia law and have the opportunity to go to another country, which practices it, perhaps, then, that's a better option", Costello said .

Asked whether he meant radical clerics would be forced to leave, he said those with dual citizenship could possibly be asked to move to the other country. Education Minister Brendan Nelson later told reporters that Muslims who did not want to accept local values should "clear off. Basically people who don't want to be Australians, and who don't want, to live by Australian values and understand them, well then, they can basically clear off", he said.

Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques.

I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali and elsewhere, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians."

"However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the 'politically correct' crowd began complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others. I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to Australia." "However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand." "This idea of Australia being a
multi- cultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. And as Australians, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle."

"This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom"

"We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society : Learn the language ! "

"Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture."

"We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us."

"If the Southern Cross offends you, or you don't like "A Fair Go", then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. By all means, keep your culture, but do not force it on others.

"This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom:


"If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted."

Anonymous said...

It might be true that the English are struggling with their identity,

Not so. English Identity is crystal clear, it is British identity that looks very fractured in contrast

Anonymous said...

Voyager said...

English Identity is crystal clear, it is British identity that looks very fractured in contrast

Spot on, Voyager.

Auntie Flo'

Wrinkled Weasel said...

"Ashamed to be English" -

My English great grandfather died in the service of our country, as did my grandfather.

Both died at sea - fishermen, from Norfolk, who put the food on your plate.

I cannot be "ashamed" of that, for they neither enslaved, nor tortured nor conquered..they fished.

Any shame I have for my nationality is reserved for the last ten years of Tony Blair's ruining of this country....oh and scumbags like yourself who should fuck off to Iran or wherever it is you believe you can lead a shameless life.

Roger Thornhill said...

English Parliament at least is a good way to flush out the shrill 'self-loathers' who want to engineer the fragmentation of England into petty Regions.

This is an EU agenda. There is plenty of money and cosy offices to hand for those who show willing to further that cause.

The less someone earns a living, the more viscious and cruel will be their attempts to retain it.

Newmania said...

Good point Roger

Anonymous said...

Is it any wonder people want to strap bombs to themselves and dent the repellent arrogance displayed on this page?

We clearly have neither the honour nor the bravery to face our past, and so are condemned to carry on making the same mistakes over and over. Maybe that is English identity - blinkered, stupid and cruel.

David Lindsay said...

Good grief, imagine who would stand for an English Parliament, or who would turn out to vote for such a thing! The latter would be very few in number, but that would only make them all the more dangerous! And the former would be "elected" from party lists! NOOOOO!

The SNP isn't going to win on Thursday, and support for independence in Scotland is now at pre-Braveheart levels, though continuuiing to decline. Plaid Cymru doesn't know what it thinks, and isn't worth thinking about.

So let's get on with rebuiling our country, Britain, with a strong Parliament and strong local government able to tell an overmighty executive where to go, an overmighty judiciary where to go, Brussels where to go, and Washington where to go. Isn't that what people in all parts of the United Kingdom want?

Huw said...

It's a Labour Party thing. I have no idea what the English hear of Welsh issues, however those who ask for more devolved powers or to safeguard against a spiralling housing market instantly gets called a racist. Labour have tried developing a nationalism that is 'friendly' to them; one which only includes showing flags and other icons on a day of a sporting match.

Apparently the Welsh get an extra £5,000 per head than the English. Are the English happy with this? Or is this kind of lie only heard on the Welsh side of the border?

In the last general election (2005), if it wasn't for the Scottish and Welsh Labour MPs, the government of the UK would be Conservative.

The Welsh and Scottish will support an English parliament and through your cause, we'll have ours.

Anonymous said...

huwwaters, don't lie. Labour won 286 seats in England at the last election compared to 194 for the Conservartives.

The case for an English Parliament = a tower of lies and empty, hate-filled rhetoric.

Bill Haydon said...

The case for an English Parliament = a tower of lies and empty, hate-filled rhetoric.

Can you show us exactly what the lies are, please, and exactly what hate filled rhetoric is solely used to justify it, too? For exmaple, statements like "that is English identity - blinkered, stupid and cruel". That would count as hate but it came from...oh. As with that statement, most of the hate on this page has come from clowns like you.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous @ 9:07

In the 2005 election the 'raw data' was as follows:

Conservative 8,116,005
Labour 8,043, 461
Liberal 5,201,286

Whilst I do not support the case for an English parliament, as I believe we have that already, I do believe we need a major overhaul of our corrupt and unrepresentative electoral system. We need to put the heart back into this noble country and expunge all that is not good.

Anonymous said...

Here are some examples of the oft-repeated lies told by English nationalists:

"The Scots are allowed to debate the issue because their nation is "oppressed" by the evil English but the English aren't allowed to discuss their own independence."

That's a lie. There's no barrier to freedom of speech or ban on discussing English independence in the UK. In fact, I believe Simon Heffer has an article in today's Teelgraph calling for English independence. He wouldn't have done that if people "weren't allowed" to discuss it.

"English Parliament/ Scottish Independence, would stuff Labour virtually for ever" and also your comments about the Conservatives winning more seats in England. Both lies, as I've explained above.

"If England no longer had a Cabinet filled... with Scots"

Again, another lie. Of the 23 Cabinet ministers today just five are MPs from Scottish constituencies.

As for examples of hate-filled rhetoric, see the earlier post on here about previous posts on Mr Dale's blog calling the Scots parasites, scum, jocks, cockroaches, scroungers, racists and bigots, alcoholics, and all manner of offensive comments.

Anonymous said...

This will be the SNP conundrum -

1) Nationalism will create economic success.
2) Economic success will create immigration.
3) Immigration will destroy nationalism

Bill Haydon said...

"The Scots are allowed to debate the issue because their nation is "oppressed" by the evil English but the English aren't allowed to discuss their own independence."

That's a lie. There's no barrier to freedom of speech or ban on discussing English independence in the UK. In fact, I believe Simon Heffer has an article in today's Teelgraph calling for English independence. He wouldn't have done that if people "weren't allowed" to discuss it.

You know what he means - he means being able to discuss it without being slandered as racist - exactly what you are trying to do. Again.

And your selective picking of points does not show how "the case for an English parliament =" lies or hate filled rhetoric. The insults which you don't bother to quote _do not_" = the case for an English parliament", they just "=" bad manners. Guilt by association. Nice tactic.

What, actual, political reasons do you have for opposing an English parliament? I mean, apart from thinking that the people who want one are racist?

Anonymous said...

Tin Drummer, don’t be silly. For a start I don’t have a problem with an English Parliament per se, it’s just the fact that the majority of people who are supportive of the idea and who post on this blog and others are, indeed, racist. Their support for an English Parliament doesn’t make them racist. It’s their frequent rants and slurs against Scottish people, calling them Jocks, parasites, scroungers, implying that they hate England or the English and are conspiring against them, which makes them racist.

For example, someone from the English Dumbocrats might say “I want an English Parliament because I’m fed up of a Cabinet stuffed full of Jock parasites who hate England”. Not only is the Cabinet not “stuffed full” of Scots, as I explained in the last post, but the use of “Jock” is extremely offensive. I’m sure Mr Dale (quite rightly) wouldn’t allow the use of the work “P**i” or “n****r” on his blog so why allow “Jock”? Anyway, when one politely points out that the English Dumbocrat statement is a tad racist and intolerant, you should expect the reply “It’s not racist to want an English Parliament!! No, it’s not. But just because you want an English Parliament doesn’t excuse the barrage of abuse that the Scots are becoming increasingly subject to from your political ilk and other users of this very fine blog on a daily basis.

Bill Haydon said...

i'm sorry, but I think you'll need to do some more research to discover whether the "majority" do indeed think that. Simply referring to a few insults doesn't mean that a majority think like that and it doesn't entitle anyone to smear people on the basis of them. There are a couple of hateful anti-English comments here too, and people, including myself, have experienced them in Scotland and Wales, for that matter. What does that mean? Nothing but poor manners and people who love to be offensive, for whatever reason. It's a cheap shot to equate either English nationalism per se with racism, or the supposed views of imaginary "majorities" of people who support an English parliament; it's a piss-poor argument and it doesn't wash outside of north London anymore.

By the way, if refusing to be smeared as racist counts as silly, then...oh, never mind.