Saturday, June 06, 2009

Hate Mail from the BNP

Yesterday, Donal Blaney and I interviewed the BNP Deputy Leader Simon Darby on Play Talk. (Listen to the interview HERE). I thought it was a fair interview. Clearly, parts of the BNP did not. I've had several abusive emails about it, presumably from BNP supporters, who clearly thought my only question should have been: "So Mr Darby, what would you like to say to the nation?". Donal Blaney has had them too, as he blogs HERE. He eloquently takes them apart and explains why he finds the BNP so repulsive.

79 comments:

Anonymous said...

Get over it. All parties have repulsive members that are liable to send hate mail.

Anonymous said...

Was anyone rude and nasty to Mr.Darby?

Well you tried to give them a fair hearing for once and that's what you get for your trouble.

Does hate mail constitute an offence? Now Postman Pat's in charge of the plod I wouldn't expect an early delivery of justice.

But let's be honest, if you'd asked Mr.Brown a few awkward questions how long would it be before a few of his goons would be knocking on your door?

Gordon said...

Iain, please accept my apologies for being off topic:

Last night on Sky they had their rolling updates which said Hutton had resigned and was standing down which would force a by-election. I thought I'd misread and waited the five minutes before it came around again but that is definitely what it said. I've not seen any mention of this anywhere else. Were they just wrong? If anyone can help me out I'd really appreciate it.

Thank you

The Economic Voice said...

What do you expect from BNP supporters a tap on the back? where there is no reason the is no reasonable argument to debate.
Leave the cobra in its jar and don't let it our for it may spit in your eyes and blind you. If the BNP wishes to get rid of non indigenous peoples from this land then they will be left with a few of the Welsh, Irish and Cornish.....as has been proven with genetic testing most of the "White" population of England are descended from foreign invaders i.e. Saxon, Norman and Roman. So if Nick Griffin or any other member of the BNP is found to have blood outside that of the "Original Indigenous British People" will they throw themselves out of the country?

Paul Halsall said...

@The Economin Voice

On Genomics, I recommend Stephen Oppenheimer's _The Origins of the British_ [ http://www.amazon.co.uk/Origins-British-Genetic-Detective-Story/dp/0786718900/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1244290050&sr=8-10 ], and for the less bookish, Brian Sykes, _Seven Daughters of Eve_.

Both show that, from Mitochondrial DNA and Y-Chromosome evidence about 3/4s of the present UK population descend from hunter gatherer populations who moved here after the last Ice Age, and long before any Celts, Anglo-Saxons, or Vikings.

Withing the past 20-30,000 years most people in Europe, the middle east, and India descend from small related groups.

And within 60,000 years, perhaps more recently, all modern human beings have at least one common ancestor (actually we have more, but mDNA statistically points to one.)

PSL the word verification here is "fistor" and I wondered how they know?

ooberlib said...

Another emotional response which falls short of showing concern for those who are indeed preyed upon because of their vulnerability. Disappointing in its lack of objectivity and deeply self indulgent lack of subjective emotional control.

I also share the view that it was a fair interview, apart from the audible giggling which was a tad cringeworthy: debate means debate.

I am of the same view as your self and the other chap, that you should debate and not hide. But make it real and convincing, and prove that you are concerned about people being preyed upon, this will be the ultimate litmus test when the Conservatives take over. I pray that you will be what you say you are, and not just another bunch of haters and spinners of party lines. What have you to convince about any benefit of doubt? So far just more hissing and spitting.

The people of the UK have been badly injured over the years of mental abuse at the hands of NuLabour policies. But equally bad has been the total lack of any opposing voice, so please keep the premature smugness in check until you can at least display some fabric of intentional change.

It will be real policies and the manifestation of real change on the ground that will hopefully bring our people back into the fold of British democracy...your smug bitching at this early stage will only impede any transition at a later date.

Keep it real and grow up.

Anonymous said...

I caught the BNP bit on your show (great show by the way).

In the same way I think you're right to speak to them otherwise they play the martyr tag, I also think the repeated use of the word "scum" (however appropriate some of us think it is) plays to their advantage.

It is right to pin them down on their skin colour views with reasoned argument, BUT even on your show you failed to engage with some of the issues which are giving them popularity in some quarters.

When large numbers of people from very different cultures move into an area over a short period of time there is bound to be tension. I guess there might be some equation where amount of tension equals (size of immigrant population/size of indigenous populations) multiplied by degree of cultural difference. Skin colour doesn't need to enter that equation. If you import a close knit glaswegian community of 5000 into somewhere like Corby you will still see a level of community tension and indigenous hostility and vice versa.

If the main stream parties honestly addressed this I think the BNP would wilt and die in no time.

The Economic Voice said...

Many thanks Paul Halsall....I remember an excellent episode of "Meet the ancestors" that backed up my previous statement. Wish I could find a link on you tube or somewhere for the episode.

It did contradict the notion of the genetic makeup being 3/4s of the present population being descended from the hunter gatherers you mentioned.

But if you are right and I am wrong then the BNP really will have to start preparations to move themselves out of the U.K. given the common ancestry with your previously mentioned small related groups.

Thanks for the link...there are a lot of conflicting views on the origins of the genetics of the hunter gatherers who moved into Britain after the ice age....some have found common ancestry between them and the middle east.

A contentious and yet interesting subject

Ilja Nieuwland said...

@ Paul Halsall

I don't doubt that most of the UK's inhabitants stem from ice age hunter/gatherers. Of course, none of them *exclusively* do.

That's the problem with determining bloodlines and attributing value to them - everyone's related to everyone else if you trace your origins back far enough.

Thomas Rossetti said...

I have to agree with "The Economic Voice" here. What did you expect, Iain? A lot of emails saying, "As a racist, I respectfully disagree with you Mr Dale"?

The Economic Voice is also right on the money when it comes to indigenous peoples. The vast majority of people in Britain were descended from some sort of immigrants or invaders.

What would they do about Jade Goody's children, for example? Since Goody's father was Jamaican, those children have some "black" blood in them. Should they be deported too?

Just ignore the abusive emails, Iain. The vast majority of people don't wish to engage in debate on that level.

By the way, in light of your recent twitter update about you being knackered, I think you (and all of us political geeks) should rest up today. I can't see much happening before Sunday evening (at which point the fun will all begin again!)

Twitter page

joshuachambers said...

If you're getting hate mail then you must have riled them - publicising them a little has already shown their violent instincts. More coverage please!

p.s. I've written a parliamentary sketch if anyone wants to have a gander: http://www.theyorker.co.uk/news/blogs/3193

Anonymous said...

Hate Mail? Hardly.
What a pair of fannies you & Blaney are.
Get over yourselves.

Simon Gardner said...

Very comical post, Iain. You’ve brightened a miserable day.

Liam said...

Don't worry about the BNP. They have nothing to say but insults, and nobody to impress but themselves. That you gave a member a fair interview is to your credit; the mainstream media certainly do not.

The BNP members who abuse you should be giving praise for you not doing them over.

Jonathan Cook said...

Iain,

Congratulations for refusing to "no platform the BNP".

I also heard the debate on the program yesterday with the BNP supporter.

There a decent people in my local pub who have been courted and unfortunately won over by the BNP. It is wrong for commentators and mainstream parties just to dismiss these fringe supporters as just "racist" or "facist".

Listen to the BNP voters and debate with them. The mainstream parties can and should engage in debate with these people and offer them an alternative vision and hope.

Deabte with the BNP leaders is also important - it exposes them. They can't survive in an atmosphere of decency and logic.

Paul Halsall said...

Think of an average person. Then realise, half of all people are less intelligent than average.

They are the kind of people who vote BNP.

Tony Sharp said...

Unless Anon @ 1.46 has access to Iain's inbox, how can he/she presume to know whether the emails were hateful or not?

I regularly get abusive emails from people unhappy about me blogging my analysis of BNP policy and the comments of its leadership. The BNP website is like an aggressive and abusive tabloid and I think this rubs off on its supporters.

Clearly some BNP supporters think they should be treated as a special case and not subjected to scrutiny or rigorous examination on the issues. What rattles them is our refusal to play their game and ignore their basic race-driven agenda.

It is very pleasing to see in the county elections the BNP was resoundingly rejected in the majority of seats it contested. I think this is because where they are challenged on the issues, rather than pretending the BNP does not exist, people start to understand the real nature of the party and distance themselves from it.

Infrequent Allele said...

Paul Halsall - Oppenheimer's opinions on the origin of English and the Celtic languages are frankly ludicrous. Oppenheimer relies heavily on a paper by the geneticists Peter Forster and Alfred Toth who attempted to use the methodology of DNA analysis to trace the descent of languages. Forster and Toth's application of this methodology to linguistic analysis was deeply flawed and their results shown to be nonsensical.

Forster and Toth's paper was resoundingly trashed by the late Larry Trask - a recognised expert on comparative linguistics and the leading authority on the Basque language. Trask's demolition of Forster and Toth can be read here
http://linguistlist.org/issues/14/14-1876.html

But back on topic, well done Ian for showing up the BNP to be the crowd of racist crackpots that they are. They have no place in a civilised society. Like worms under a rock they die when exposed to sunlight.

Stephen Shorland said...

Hello Iain,

Just listening to 'Any Questions' wherein Caroloine Spellman was criticised for 'unsavoury' groups that the Conservatives were proposing to sit with in Europe.It was pointed out that both the LibDems and Labour sit with Partys that also include unpleasant characters.THE OBVIOUS answer was: 'These are the type of people PR brings! '

Osama the Nazarene said...

They don't like it up em! Daniel Hannan had a similar invasion by their trolls when he pointed out that their statist policies (tax and spend, nationalisation, creation of state run manufacturing industries run by workers councils etc.), were a strain of socialism (national socialism). Shame Donal didn't have time to develop the point more clearly.

Anonymous said...

Just a point. Are you sure it came from BNP supporters? The even farther left might just have sent it? Look at their rantings on Indymedia. It would be a fair set-up to them. Then again it might be BNP supporters.

Paul Halsall said...

@Allele

Have you read the books?

Because your comments have nothing in common with what Oppenheimer covers.

Bert Rustle said...

Anonymous June 06, 2009 1:16 PM wrote ... When large numbers of people from very different cultures move into an area over a short period of time there is bound to be tension. I guess there might be some equation where amount of tension equals (size of immigrant population/size of indigenous populations) multiplied by degree of cultural difference. ...

Indeed. A qualitative description of how Multi-ethnic societies are a failure worldwide is given by Professor Tutu Vanhanen in his book “Ethnic Conflicts Explained by Ethnic Nepotism”. ISBN 0762305835. For a brief synopsis of a detailed online review see my comment at http://iaindale.blogspot.com/2009/06/so-what-did-you-think-of-show.html at June 06, 2009 6:17 AM.

In short, the research demonstrates that discord increases as Diversity increases, in the absence of a totalitarian government.

Bert Rustle said...

Thomas Rossetti June 06, 2009 1:38 PM wrote ... The vast majority of people in Britain were descended from some sort of immigrants or invaders. ...

How then would you define the indigenous peoples of North America, Australia or Tibet?

More generally, is anyone indigenous to anywhere? If so, how? If not why not?

It appears to me that the Ruling Class acknowledge and promote the existence of indigenous peoples outside the British Isles but not within them. Why?

Rich Johnston said...

Bit if a Hijack here... Iain, just wondering, with the expenses row being drowned out by elections and resignations, one part seems to have been missed.

Boris Johnson claimed expenses for a Remembrance Day wreath.

When fellow Tory, James Grey did the the same, you called for Cameron to withdraw the Tory whip.

My question is: what price should Boris pay?

Richard's mum said...

What do you expect from a bunch of total thickies? Reasoned debate?

Anonymous said...

Eh??? Was I listening to the same interview?! Simon Darby was very polite, civilised and happy to enage in the debate; no hate, no Nazi rants, just plain common sense.

By the way, Iain, well done for giving the interview but please refrain from the smug giggling in the background in the future. It reminds me of the old arrogant Tories of yester year!

Anonymous said...

Jesus Iain don't be a drama queen all your life.

Anonymous said...

Tell me you anti-BNP hotshots how precisely, do you define the BNP as 'Racist'?

Forget reaching for the online dictionary's and Wikipedia for help. I want you to really think for yourselves on this one.

But before you blog a reply, I strongly suggest that you look at at the documentary (link below) before to avoid making utter fools of yourself both now and in the future.

You advocates of racism won't like what you are about to see - but you better get used to it.

http://tinyurl.com/qdzfc8

Anonymous said...

I've looked at Simon Darbys blog too, and he doesn't appear to have any problem with the interview, in fact seems rather complementary to Iain. Every party has supporters at the more "excitable" end.

I really believe that there is a place for the BNP, and that the way to show people the differences is to debate, not deny a platform, not condemn, debate.

VotR said...

Even bad PR is still PR.

If you want to make someone have no PR. Then...



Gareth Thomas said...

Iain, I am surprised that you find hate mail from the BNP an unexpected consequence of trying to engage these people in debate. I believe in a "no platform" approach to the BNP. Your colleague on the radio show was right to take that approach. A number of years ago, when a National Front public election meeting was taking place in Brixton, a number of us who opposed them persuaded the police to let us into the school hall. Once we were in, the fascist heavies laid into us with fists, knuckle dusters, belts and chairs. The police watched through the windows, laughing. I have never forgotten the lesson. These people do not win with words: they will simply wait their chance and beat you up. I really do advise caution.

Guthrum said...

The BNP are exhausting, they try to pass themselves off as a democratic party, but a democrat will have a half decent line with which to debate with.

Most BNP supporters I have ever spoken to, you can just see the light going out behind their eyes when you start speaking to them.

Anything less unqualified 100% support for their 'team', just results in playground insults.

Today mostly I am an 'arrogant prick' according to a BNP supporting poster.

Simon Gardner said...

On this day at this hour - as D-Day is remembered - it’s important to remember that this is why the EU (as it now is) was created.

As Winston Churchill said (Zurich, 19th of September 1946): “We need to build a kind of united states of Europe”.

It was created to ensure the main European powers put an end to their centuries of war. The EU and its predecessors succeeded and it has been a noble and worthwhile enterprise.

Anonymous said...

A number of years ago, when a National Front public election meeting was taking place in Brixton, a number of us who opposed them persuaded the police to let us into the school hall. Once we were in, the fascist heavies laid into us with fists, knuckle dusters, belts and chairs. The police watched through the windows, laughing. I have never forgotten the lesson.

Oh come on that was just a downright lie!! This is getting pathetic - can people start to substantiate their allegations with actual proof, please?

And Iain, are you familiar with the concept of black propaganda per chance?

I can't wait to hear you lot disparage the 8-12% of the electorate who voted for the party at the European elections...

We need a sensible debate on immigration NOW.

Colin Brown said...

What hate? Those of you who Frisbee around the terms: 'Hate' 'Bigot' 'Fascist' 'Racist' - in relation to BNP political ethos are making complete fools of yourselves.

Why?

This is why:

http://tinyurl.com/qdzfc8

John Moss said...

Iain,

Please piublish the e-mails.

I have just been at the selection of the Conservative candidate for Barking and everybody there agreed that the BNP had to be tackled head on, not ignored. (BTW, the excellent Simon Marcus was successful.)

Examples of thier unreasonable behaviour will be very useful in this.

Tony Sharp said...

These BNP types are not very imaginative. Their parents all seem to call their offspring 'Anonymous'. I guess that is their dislike of variety creeping in again...

Damn hypocrites said...

Iain if you want to be taken seriously then take your interviews seriously no matter who they are and not like you're pulling a prank on someone and giggling like a girl in the back ground.

Maybe you should just stick to talking to people you like.



"Paul Halsall said...
Think of an average person. Then realise, half of all people are less intelligent than average.

They are the kind of people who vote BNP"

Can you back that up with facts or is it just more sweeping labour dehumanising tactics, you know the sort of tactics people like you accuse the BNP of using?

You really are a nasty arrogant trolling piece of crap.

Summer said...

Iain
You and others think it is quite alright to post blog after blog calling BNP members, voters and I presume sympathisers names eg scum, Neanderthals, criminals, thugs, people with low IQ, Nazis, obnoxious, hateful, and, of course, the meaningless racist word that is the 21st century equivalent of 17th century witch, or 16th century heretic.

You do not engage with their policies, you do not try and understand the anger and pain that attracts people to them in despair; you just take a morally superior tone and belittle people.

Neither do you dish out the same treatment to other groups of extremists (and I'm not advocating that you should) eg Islamic fundamentalists who demonstrate against soldiers, Greens who call holidaymakers criminals, EU officials who have actually set up a fascist state, Labour party supporters who even now support Gordon Brown, Marxists who are responsible for so much 20th century suffering.

In all your 'hateful', hurtful prose you never once stop to stress that you support people who are patriotic, and love their country - you make it sound like it is an abominable crime. And quite frankly Iain when patriotism goes, when people no longer do things for the good of society, then all we so obviously have left is self-interest and greed that has now led to tyranny.

But when the people you abuse are abusive back, what do you do? You scream like a silly girl who has had their hair pulled for bullying someone.

What goes around Iain, comes around, what you give you shall receive back threefold!!

Nigel said...

Ironic that BNP prejudice doesn't seem to extend to the race of trolls.

Gareth Thomas said...

If the person posting as "Anonymous" hasn't the guts to use a name (even an invented one)when I am using my own name, and has the gall to tell me that what I recounted here - which I experienced for real - is a lie, I challenge you now: come out with a name and re-post. Who are you and why do you think I would lie about this? I have seen people beaten up before my very eyes by the BNP's predecessors. The people and the ideas have not changed: the boots and armbands have become suits and ties: the manners are still those of the street thugs.

Cinnamon said...

If you want to win against Darby proper[1], and not just in the eyes of your buddies, you'll have to get newer tools for the debate, because the argumentation has moved on since the 1980's somewhat. It's Darby's spectators who are your customers, and to win those over is the real prize. They need to be able to understand your thoughts and they can only do that if you understand theirs and can talk to them in a way that is compatible with their way of thinking.

The entire discussion about race and racism also has moved into legit territory, so there is an unfortunate overlap between reasonable points of order and assorted hysteria.

Darby uses real grievances as a legit line of argumentation here that is rock solid and wins many ears because it's unfortunately all true, but he is using it as a basis for his (often flawed) points, and if you don't unpick those two strands of thinking he's tangled up, discard the rubbish and clean up the other, you'll not make inroads into that thinking in a meaningful way.

Here is something you maybe ought to watch:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1084394769627714346&ei=x0EqSuzaDISE-QaXvsy2CQ&q=Craig+Bodeker&hl=en

This topic needs to be picked up by normal folks (like you) and be dealt with accordingly, because in itself it causes a lot of friction and bad blood on both sides, and we all (black, white, brown, assorted aliens and furries) need to get a serious grip here.

[1] In this I mean that you manage to make Mr. Darby think about his stance and change it as a consequence, because when he does this, most of his supporters will follow.

ditica said...

Blogger Paul Halsall said...

"Think of an average person. Then realise, half of all people are less intelligent than average.

They are the kind of people who vote BNP."

A truly incisive analysis.

With such acumen being brandished agin 'em the BNP don't stand a chance. No, really.

Fat Steve said...

I think the problem with the BNP is that so many of them are completely inbred. You can tell because so many of them share the name 'Anonymous.'

gordon-bennett said...

Being a Capitalist i am obviously not a bnp supporter.

However, I am willing to tolerate them for 2 reasons:

1. I am generally tolerant in a free marketeer sense;

2. The bnp splits the nulab vote, which is a good thing.

sharcli said...

Guthrum said...

"Today mostly I am an 'arrogant prick' according to a BNP supporting poster."

You mean there is someone in the BNP with a brain ?

How can this be, for are they not all of less than average intelligence ?

No playground insults here. Oh no, they're all top drawer Oxford Union insults, best quality, never mind the width.

"exhausting" "light going out behind their eyes" Yup, real susbstantive stuff.

Anonymous said...

Ridiculing BNP supporters and treating them with contempt can work up to a point and is certainly a strategy worth continuing with, however in terms of undermining their growing popularity in some areas I think we need something more.

By addressing the issue of high levels of immigration into concentrated areas which causes existing residents to feel alienated in their own country we can cut off the life blood of the BNP.

How do we tackle that?

Thomas Rossetti said...

I should first declare that I didn't listen to the interview. (I would do so now, but I listening to something else.)

But if you did indeed "snigger", this is not good. The BNP can easily be taken down by having the policies examined: they don't need to be mocked by those in the political mainstream.

In fact, it is just this sort of attitude that shores up their support. People feel they aren't taken seriously and become entrenched.

I personally agree with gay marriage, but I don't mock those who disagree. I also don't believe in an interventionist god but can deal respectfully with those that do.

The BNP may be "hateful" but a debate should be a debate.

Twitter page

Anonymous said...

Gareth Thomas said:

I have seen people beaten up before my very eyes by the BNP's predecessors.

Ahhh, right - so it wasn't the BNP who beat you up, was it? It was the National Front i.e. not the BNP. Alternatively, do you have any evidence to substantiate a claim that "these people" i.e. members of the BNP, are the same people who allegedly assaulted you and your "anti-fascist" compadres? I'm talking here about the same individuals. It would be best if you could do so instead of resorting, once again, to using another baseless smear.

No, I certainly will not use my real name - I would lose my job if it was brought to the attention of my employers that I was defending the BNP, even though I'm not a member: it's a thought crime, you see. When that changes, I'll send you my name, age, occupation and place of birth.

Twig said...

Anonymous said...
“Just a point. Are you sure it came from BNP supporters? The even farther left might just have sent it? Look at their rantings on Indymedia. It would be a fair set-up to them. Then again it might be BNP supporters.
June 06, 2009 2:15 PM”


Don’t rule this out Iain, from what I have seen, the anti-fascist groups seem to work on the basis that the end justifies the means.

I think your interview with Simon Darby was a good thing because you cannot have a balanced discussion about policies if one side is excluded. I didn't hear you say anything in the discussion that would provoke abusiveness, so it could have been someone with a hidden agenda as @anonymous 2:15 PM suggested.

I think Hopi Sen let himself down a bit by refusing to take part on the basis that SD might tell lies. That would preclude Hopi from taking part in discussions with large swathes of the political party he himself supports.

If the BNP were lying, surely they would put forward far less controversial views to avoid scaring the horses a la New Labour’s “ our air is not for sale”, no tuition fees, no top up fees, etc. etc.

Gareth Thomas said...

OK, "Anonymous" keep your identity to yourself. I'll just be who I am, but I don't engage with ghosts. You have now - rather presumptiously - given me a label ("antifascist") without knowing anything about my background. Not everyone who encounters Nazis and finds them repulsive is an antifascist. Wartime soldiers going into Buchenwald to relieve the camp were repulsed by the horrors they saw; but many of them had no real sense of political commitment at the time. Take care with the labels. If you support the BNP you are indeed a fascist. But if you if you simply point out that a crocodile is a dangerous animal, you are not necessarily David Attenborough.

Anonymous said...

I don't engage with ghosts

Really? So why have you responded to my comments three times, even though I post under the name of 'Anonymous'?

You have now - rather presumptiously - given me a label ("antifascist") without knowing anything about my background.

No, I didn't. I gave you no such label. I described your compadres as antifascists.

Take care with the labels.

Indeed, you could do with practicing what you preach, Mr. Thomas, given your propensity to equate the actions of pathetic National Front thugs with BNP members and supporters.

Furthermore, the smears being directed at BNP voters i.e. that they're all thick, racist, have no political acumen or all three, are truly pathetic and offensive in the extreme. You will not win the debate using unsubstantiated and deliberately provocative lies. In fact, you will merely alienate people like me, and many others, who support the BNP while also having successful careers, the ability to articulately make a point and, rather than being a mob of racists, are rather fed up with the uncontrolled nature of mass immigration and failed multiculturalism in this country.

And no, we’re not all trolls - nor do we have any desire to reveal our true identity given that we would almost certainly loss out jobs because of the discriminatory nature of employment law in this country.

Gareth Thomas said...

Colin Brown: well done. You have used a name, unlike so many supporters of the BNP here who have not got the guts to use any names.

Now let's see how you deal with the next challenge, sensible debate. You have given us a link to a video: http://tinyurl.com/qdzfc8

It is an interesting video. "A Conversation About Race." It says 'racism' is an artificial construct, and it goes on to present a number of vox pop interviews with (American) people who say they have experienced racism. Then their experience is shot down by the white presenter, in a very crude but 'reasonable' sounding manner.

It is all very dull stuff. It is so trite it is unbelievable that you recommend this! Get yourself into the urban situation anywhere in England, Colin, and hear real examples of racism. Don't dare to deny it exists because the denial itself is a denial of your very own humanity.

Any political party that encourages racism further (or denies its existence)- and that is precisely the glorious project of the BNP - is in league with the forces of anarchy and destruction of all that this country has achieved in a long history of assimilation and cultural development. None of that history has been based on concepts of racial purity and at every opportunity our culture has encouraged those who sought to broaden our outlook.

The only successful Englishman in a fascist uniform was Charlie Chaplin in "The Great Dictator" and unlike Mosley, John Tyndall, Martin Webster, and the rather sad Mr Griffin, Chaplin understood that the loony aspect of fascism would never appeal to the English. (For the same reasons that Gordon Brown's Big Brother act looks ridiculous right now!) We don't buy the whole loony control act, and you'd better just get used to it.

Anonymous said...

Just trying to come up with solutions to the BNP problem here.

What if we banned all immigration?

On the one hand you take a lot of wind out of the BNP's sails.

On the other hand the continued slow emigration rate coupled with the propensity in some immigrant communities to favour larger families would, in a gradual non-threatening way, lead to a more diverse and cosmopolitan society.

John F said...

Gareth, you write

"You have used a name, unlike so many supporters of the BNP here who have not got the guts to use any names."

As has been noted before, what do you think the reaction would be of employers to their employees found to be openly supporting the BNP - notwithstanding the fact that it is a legal, democratic party? If you believe that the repercussions to such people's lives would be deserved, then please explain why -especially given that the BNP has yet to be outlawed. Or maybe you believe that it should be made illegal?

Get off your high horse and quit the sanctimonious musings.

Gareth Thomas said...

John F., you say "What do you think the reaction would be of employers to their employees found to be openly supporting the BNP"? A more interesting question, and one that intrigues me is this: what is the reaction of your colleagues at work who you wish to see "repatriated"; or don't you talk about such matters with them? Oh dear, the "high horse" image might not work so well now, eh?

If you want to encourage a debate like this, Iain, I'm beginning to see that my 'no platform' position was too limited. You are right: let's take them on in free debate, because if this kind of nonsense is all they have to offer, I know a number of primary school kids who would blow them out of the water in a lively debate on these matters in the classroom!

Cue Groucho Marx: "Even a ten-year old could explain this better. Fetch me a ten year old!"

"Sanctimonious"? Not quite. You are trying hard, but you haven't found the right humour angle yet. Now give me the reasons to deport some of my best friends, and explain it with a few more conversational skills and some attempt to engage on the humour/humanity level and we'll be right into the issues. Are you ready to do that?

John F said...

what is the reaction of your colleagues at work who you wish to see "repatriated"; or don't you talk about such matters with them? Oh dear, the "high horse" image might not work so well now, eh?

I want no such thing. Why do continue to attempt to smear supporters of the BNP with unsubstantiated claims? However, what I do want is every illegal immigrant in this country - at the last count I think the government admitted there are some 700,000 of them - to be deported immediately.

Thereafter, I would like a strict immigration policy which strictly limits those allowed to stay in this country to those required solely for economic reasons. If it no longer becomes economically viable for such individuals to stay then they should be made to leave as soon as that situation arises.

Furthermore, every individual born outside the UK (with the exception of those born to British citizens) who is then convicted of committing a criminal offence should be deported at once and barred from re-entering the country.

This is what I want. I don't agree with the whole "ethnic foreigner" business, but the BNP's position with regard to immigration and multiculturalism reflects my views closer than those of any other party.

Please provide evidence that the BNP wants to enact a policy of involuntary 'repatriation' of those born in this country.... What? You can’t? Maybe that’s because the BNP doesn’t advocate such a position. Or is the truth rather more simple, in that it would be much more convenient for your sanctimonious musings if they did?

Anonymous said...

I know a number of primary school kids who would blow [BNP supporters] out of the water in a lively debate on these matters in the classroom!

Do you realise just how pathetic comments like that make you look? So the now the latest line of attack is that the average BNP supporter has the mental capacity of a child? What a contemptible little man you truly are.

Gareth Thomas said...

Oh dear, John F... Sorry, this fails again on the conversational front. You can do the rant very well. If there's one thing that comes across strongly, it's the rant. Very good rant. I apologise for 'smearing' your favoured political group by suggesting that they might like to repatriate people. OK, it's in your court...

You ask "Please provide evidence that the BNP wants to enact a policy of involuntary 'repatriation' of those born in this country."

Keyword: involuntary.

I know what that means. I have read the BNP stuff. It hinges on that, doesn't it? You want to make out there are many who would queue up to 'voluntarily' go 'home'. But please tell us the policy in your words (and let's not hear more of my "sanctimonious musings"). We need to be clear on it. It would sound much more authoritative coming from you than from me anyway, as you support these views, so just explain the details please. How and in what circumstances would British subjects and citizens be 'invited' to leave?

John F said...

You want to make out there are many who would queue up to 'voluntarily' go 'home'.

No, I don't. Where do I say or even remotely imply that? I have absolutely no problem with every British citizen living in this country staying put. In fact, I would hate to see the vast majority of the non-white British community leave: the only caveat being that those born outside UK to non-UK parents or a non-UK parent who subsequently becomes British citizens yet commit criminal offences.

How and in what circumstances would British subjects and citizens be 'invited' to leave?

I repeat, I have no wish to see British citizens invited to leave. If some want to leave, on the condition that they receive financial assistance, then, and only then, do I believe that such a project could be remotely feasible. However, I have no wish to see anyone in this country actively entice people to leave, short of offering a cash incentive.

Now, if you wish, how about returning to my 'rant' and analysing its key points. If you had done so earlier it might prevented you from indulging in yet more unsubstantiated smears

Gareth Thomas said...

Anonymous said: "What a contemptible little man you truly are."

Thank you. But at least I am a man. You - hiding behind "Anonymous" - might be a meerkat on magic mushrooms for all we know.

Forget the 'no platform for fascists' Iain; this is great. Yes, I'm enjoying it now. Why not do a whole radio show on this and let's get into serious Muppet Mode.

Gareth Thomas said...

John F. said "If some want to leave, on the condition that they receive financial assistance... such a project could be remotely feasible... offering a cash incentive."

Exactly. Thanks for that. I just thought some people out there may not have heard that before. I won't even comment on it further.

Anonymous said...

Yes Gareth, such a suggestion is absolutely scandalous. I can't believe anyone would have the sheer audacity to suggest something like this. I'm so outraged and shocked that people in Britain could have thought up such a scheme. My God, next they'll be telling us that multiculturalism hasn't worked in this country. Unbelievable, who do they think they are? My sense of faux-outrage couldn't be more acute at this moment in time.

Colin Brown said...

RE: Gareth Thomas

Craig Bodeker's "A CONVERSATION ABOUT RACE" is an intelligent, bracingly honest and densely packed film that takes a hard look into America's often irrational and skewed perception of racism.

Through a series of interviews of ordinary citizens, Bodeker examines prevailing views on racism and reveals how it has morphed over the decades into a zeitgeist of one way blame, paranoia and finger pointing. The film eventually uncovers a kind of racial McCarthyism that I believe has actually encouraged division, fanned anger and resentment to offenses, both real and imagined, and spurred racially motivated violence.

Not since CRASH has a film so poignantly confronted America's views on race and at the same time establish itself as a mandatory first step to an honest and symmetrical conversation about race and you pop-poo it?

I suggest you Watch it again. You couldn't have been paying proper attention.

http://tinyurl.com/qmd7wo

Bellocman said...

Right, I've now got my name sorted on Google (no longer one of the many 'Anonymous!)

Why is it the only 'hate' I see on this blog comes from the self-rightous 'no platform' bullies?!

As I said before, Simon Darby seems quite at ease having a civilised debate. We need to hear more of him on this blog not less.

Anonymous said...

Bellocman - that's not enought: you're still an offensive, odious individual for having the audacity to support one particular political as opposed to many others, which would, in fact, be acceptable.

You must be re-educated because, even if you don't yet know it, you are a Nazi and you hate all non-white people

Anonymous said...

This is what minority part politics gives us Iain.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire/8086919.stm

Anonymous said...

No wonder Dale hates 'minor' political parties - even if they have mandates to govern.

Cannot wait to hear the drivel expounded tomorrow after the BNP take 2 or 3 seats. We'll see the usual questions and commentary: "Is it Labour or the Tories' fault?...Why are these people so thick?.. How much did the expenses scandal have to do with it?...They are vicious people who have managed to brainwash the public"

bla bla bla

Paul Halsall said...

@Colin Brown

We're not in America! American issues with race are rather different than British issues.

Cinnamon said...

"We're not in America! American issues with race are rather different than British issues."

You're wrong here, this is an issue all over the West, whereever the race relation industry has opened shop. Suddenly racism and what divides us becomes a all overshadowing issue and once suspicion has poisoned the air it hard to undo, especially when people decide that pouting and demanding is easier than smiling and giving.

The old fashioned term for this sort of thing used to be 'shit stirring'...

And if it's not addressed, it'll fester as people get more hostile to each other as their fears of each other are stoked.

Most BNP sympathisers buy into this very issue of racism against white people and the BNP's socialism and other silly political ideas come as 'free gifts' -- a bit like the dope smokers and coke heads that vote for Labour despite getting criminalised by their heros, all because they managed to sell the idea that they'll be the 'good guys'(tm) in 1997 who'll rescue the world.

Bert Rustle said...

Anonymous June 06, 2009 6:26 PM wrote ... Cannot wait to hear the drivel expounded tomorrow after the BNP take 2 or 3 seats. We'll see the usual questions and commentary ...

As the Drive-By Media repeatedly lie by omission on matters of fact, I see no possibility whatsoever of them reporting in a balanced fashion on matters of opinion, which is what politics is. For example, whether one spends twice or three times as much on the NHS as Defence is a matter of opinion, whereas the boiling point of water is a matter of fact.

Drive-By Media reporting of academic research on the existence of races is an example of repeated lying by omission on matters of fact. For example, materially significant differences in the distribution of IQ or various facets of personality.

From what I have seen on bnp.org.uk they term themselves race realists. For example acknowledging that on average Japanese people are more intelligent than English people but not hating them for it.

I would hazard a guess that the dual requirement of the Drive-By Media reporting points of fact truthfully in full and to discuss the political implications of these facts in an objective fashion is beyond the vast majority of current participants. Exception may include Nicholas Wade of the New York Times http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/reference/timestopics/people/w/nicholas_wade/index.html and Frank Miele http://unjobs.org/authors/frank-miele

As such, it appears to me that any and all comment or interview would best be presented on BNPTV with the Drive-By Media left to continue their death spiral. Presumably the salary and expenses of an MEP would provide sufficient funds for such an internet based service.

Gareth Thomas said...

I'm sorry, Colin Brown, but you have yet to convince me why I should look at this film again. I watched it and made notes on it before I posted my response the first time, so don't try to make out I did not give it any attention: that's very cheap.

Please shift the critique to England and engage in an English political debate. If you are such a convinced English nationalist, why draw on another country's experience? We all know there are racists in America, and everywhere. If you want to explain why we should be racist here, I wonder if you have any examples closer to home. Or are you actually more interested in American politics? Please talk about what you know of Blighty!

Or if you find that so hard, try another subject: please do tell us what a "British nationalist" is. There are various nations in Britain. I understand what you might refer to if you said "English nationalist" but what exactly is a "British nationalist"? Has this animal ever been described? The blogosphere waits with baited breath...

Anonymous said...

I'm sorry, Colin Brown, but you have yet to convince me why I should look at this film again.

Well, that's that then. We'll all have to pack up and go home because the fountain of all knowledge has declared his view and that, as well know, is all that matters.

All hail Thomas.

Gareth Thomas said...

Lest we forget. This is worth looking at, now this particular racism thread has clearly fizzled out:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/netherlands/5462049/A-picture-of-Holocaust-victim-Anne-Frank-aged-80.html

Let's remember what the Normandy veterans fought for, and their comrades died for. The liberation of Auschwitz arrived a little too late for Anne Frank.

The BNP is a racist party dressed up in false respectability. Do not be fooled. This is not 'British' and never will be.

Cinnamon said...

Gareth, you're barking up the wrong tree here and conflating things.

If you had a deeper look at the issues instead of regurgitating outdated old ideas, you'd be far more effective at persuading people, because talking down to them and effing at them really does not work.

If you want to deny that white people are getting racially attacked on a daily basis by people who want to cow them by calling them racists and putting them at danger of a court case, and then proceed to call the victims racist for protesting at being called 'racists' -- well, knock yourself out, but don't expect anyone to take you serious or listen to you.

The white power fraction unfortunately have a point about whites being racially oppressed here, and ignoring it isn't going to make it go away, all it does is that Mr. Darby gets' people's ear with good reasons and then gets the chance to poison their thinking with stupid ideas.

Hitler's Autobahn and many other projects that built Germany up after it was plundered were good for everyone, and it was on the back of good stuff like that the nasty ideas rode in.

And anyway, what reasonable kind of person tolerates racism against anyone? Why are you so happy to see people hurt in the first place? Why should white people have less human rights than others?

Gareth, you're in many ways worse than the BNP, because you defend the silly modern racism meme that is causing us all to be afraid of each other.

Maybe we ought to rename racism 'racial paranoia'...
because that really is what it is -- look at most modern 'racist' cases, they would have been laughed out of Kindergarden in the 50's and most of those situations could have been avoided if people just had manners and were prepared to use them.

Means Test ACA said...

Race issues are different here from the US because we've happily had black courtiers and businessman at the same time as black slaves. Rare, admittedly, but slavery was more considered a condition of poverty than determining sub-races. In fact, the Turks got more stick than the Africans - read some of Gladstone's speeches.

As regards indigenous populations - you have the nub of it, there is no such thing. The North American Indians came from Siberia. However, they never attempted to close the borders of the land they controlled. ALL human life came from Mespotamia, or Iraq - some people went North, some people went South, und so weiter.

If we're going to offer cash incentives for resettlement, can we include lifelong white dole bludgers as well?

Gareth Thomas said...

Cinnamon, I appreciate you are coming to this from a fixed political view. When you talk about "the racism meme" that tells us exactly where you are coming from. If you are really unaware of incidents of outright racism while observing society, in your own experience, as you appear to be telling us, then you are clearly unqualified to comment on these matters because you simply haven't observed the society around you.

Or maybe you are not entirely naive, in which case I would suggest the following. Any argument about these matters which starts from the view that there is no such thing as racism is - by definition - a racist argument. In a time of recession and hardship it is important to counter such ideas as the BNP spitefully injects into the body politic, with this weird notion that some in this country are entitled to be here and others are not. Where do you wish to begin? With those descended from the Normans?

Gareth Thomas said...

22.00 Sunday 7th June: BNP vote is clearly wiped out. You would never get more favourable circumstances than this and the electorate did not fall for the nasties, so they might as well go home for good. End of story.