Monday, June 08, 2009

Let the BNP Condemn Themselves

At one stage last night I genuinely thought that the BNP weren't going to win a seat. That's not quite how it turned out. ConservativeHome lays the blame entirely at the feet of Gordon Brown (link to come). Their reasoning is right, but it goes far deeper than that.

One reason perfectly decent, non racist people, feel able to vote for the BNP is that they are very proficient in hiding their racist agenda. The policy of the media of no platforming them and the failure of all the mainstream parties to engage them in debate and show them up for what they are has, in large part, led to them getting an easy ride and enabled them to portray themselves as hard done by martyrs.

Over the last three days I have done live radio interviews with Nick Griffin and his deputy, Simon Darby. In the Geiffin interview I got him to admit that he would not represent black or Asian constituents. His logic was that the other parties would do that, so why should he? Any normal person listening to his tortured logic would never have voted for him in a month of Sundays. I didn't conduct the interview in a shouty, aggressive manner. I let him speak and bury himself with his own words. I'll post a link to the podcast when it is available. My co-host, Hopi Sen, wouldn't take part in the interview on the basis that he'd only lie anyway - a very blinkered attitude, in my opinion.

But what's done is done. All mainstream politicos had better come to terms with the new environment before the BNP manages to get an even greater foothold.


Anonymous said...

Quite right Iain. It's no good just ignoring these people and saying 'their arguments are wrong - don't vote for them'. They are so idiotic it is better just to give them a microphone and then tear their arguments to pieces. Some people genuinely don't know what their policies actually are. In the Metro letters page the other day there was someone saying that they weren't opposed to all immigration/immigrants/ethnic minorites, just those who didn't want to work or adopt our culture. That's completely untrue but they didn't know otherwise.

Anonymous said...

Mr.Dale,interesting you wanted to score an own goal with "Hopi Sen", being snide to him. If I want to understand Nick Griffin or Simon Darby, I can read Mein Kampf. Don't need you to tell me the sun rises in the east and sets in the west!

Jonny Mac said...

Couldn't agree more. No platforming them gives them a martyr status, and helps confirm their 'narrative' that the establishment refuses to engage with the concerns they represent. It's also anti-democratic. Let them debate with others, and show themselves up for the nasty, economically-illiterate knuckle-draggers that they are.

FramedBromsgrovian said...

Very true. I often thought that there is no point in creating martyrs out of them. It is better to engage and put the lights on them and highlight how dreadful they are.

Michael said...

One reason perfectly decent, non racist people, feel able to vote for the BNP is that they resent the importation of 3-4 million foreigners over the last 12 years. They keep telling the political establishment this but no notice is taken.

In this mornings DT, Roger Bootle suggests that the next government should freeze public expenditure for the life time of the next parliament.

They should also restrict the entry of foreign nationals and cease granting passports or the right to reside for more than 12 months.

Anonymous said...

I don't support the BNP, but in addition to debating with them and allowing them to bury themselves, the mainstream parties have got to accept that some of the things the BNP are voicing are legitimate concerns of the white working class - and start changing policies.

Labour no longer represent many of the people who were their core vote. Telling already disadvantaged people who are concerned about their jobs; lack of housing; poor education; the changing nature of their societies not to vote BNP because they are racist simply isn't going to work. If anything, it achieves the opposite.

Labours policies in Government coupled with the race relations industry, has led directly to the rise in the BNP. Change the policies; stop blatently racist organisations like the Black Police Association and you will start to get somewhere.

Anonymous said...

Some interesting comments.
The labour party has a lot to answer for but perhaps we will at last get the debate on immigration and the suppression of white working class values that has been missing for so long.
Censorship was never the answer.

labourparty said...

//Their reasoning is right, but it goes far deeper than that.//

Oh no it isn't! The BNP lost votes, but won two seats because (a) Labour's vote collapsed, and (b) the Tories didn't pick up that vote.

AProlefrom1984 said...

Griffin's days as leader may be numbered. He always manages to say idiotic things in interviews and destroys his own arguments about not being racist. The other guy Brons is the one that should worry anybody who actually cares for this country. He was articulate, sounded intelligent (something Griffin & Barnbrook haven't managed) and it was possible to listen to him without switching off.
I would predict Brons would be made leader in no time at all.
The excesses of multiculturalism and adoration of Islam really have to be curbed by the main parties. And all of politics should celebrate Britain's Christian's heritage and culture otherwise we would have some really unpleasant people in positions of authority in this country. To say that would destroy Britain's economy and standing in the world is an understatement.
word verification = brainono

Gandy said...

One conclusion to be drawn from last night's results is that the British electorate is becoming increasingly euro sceptic. If Dave Cameron was to include in the Conservative manifesto for the general election a promise to hold a referendum on our continued membership of the EU then I am sure he will win a landslide majority. Remember this - the majority of the British electorate have never had the opportunity to vote on whether or not we should be in this federation.

beagleslovefags said...

Mr Sen came across like a huffy teenager. It won't make the BNP go away just because he took this childish stance.

David T said...

I would most certainly debate the BNP on neutral ground. In fact, I have debated veteran fascist (or at least offered to - the meeting in question was disrupted by the SWP).

I agree that it is abhorrence of racism that has held the BNP back so far. Many of their policies are more popular than the party itself: and this is why.

However, don't kid yourself. People KNOW that the BNP is a racist party. Their vote represents the number of people who have been convinced that racism is not a good enough reason to reject the BNP.

One of the things that we must do, to claw back an anti-racist politics, is for the centre-right and centre-left to become the standard bearers of opposition to the BNP.

Hope not Hate has done a great job taking on the BNP. However, much of the anti-BNP campaigning has taken place within the straitjacket of the extreme Left. Unite Against Fascism is a joint venture between the SWP and Ken Livingstone's Socialist Action groupies. They cannot be allowed to continue to be the voice of anti-racist politics.

There is a desperate need for a new, centrist anti-fascist campaign. It needs to be one which takes on all forms of racism and political extremism.

joshuachambers said...


Darrell said...

As you know I think your position on this question is quite right. I always think 'no platforming' shows a certain fraility in ones politics which is another good reason it doesnt work.

Anonymous said...

I'll have to listen to the interview again, I thought he said he would help ethnic minorities if they came to him for help, but that he thought they would be more likely to approach a Labour representative.

Dan Tubb said...

Iain, part of the reason is that the term ‘racist’ itself has been thoroughly devalued. Constant talk of institutional racism, and throwing the term racist at anyone who so much as mentions immigration means that when people who hear that BNP is a racist party they just ignore it. Because the left has devalued the term.

Rebel Saint said...

This annoys the hell out of me. When will people wake and realise that simply name calling and caricaturing them (and their supporters) as ignorant, mindless thugs JUST ISN'T WORKING.

They are attracting votes because the ISSUES (yes - ISSUES) they are addressing aren't being addressed by the other parties. Whole swathes of people feel disenfranchised. They know full well that then BNP have a racist membership policy but - a please don't miss this - THEY JUST DON'T CARE. Address the ISSUES and their support will evaporate.

dearieme said...

You need a scale for these things. For me, the election and re-election of the pathological liar and warmonger Blair was more disgusting even than the election of the BNP. Indeed, you could argue that Blair was the cause of the election of the BNP.

Gecko said...

Iain, excellent show last night, and congratulations for taking on the BNP on policy issues not just "you're racist". I'm a believer in free speech and believe that they have every right to stand...and to be elected if the public support them. The way to counter them is to show that their policies are wrong/wouldn't work etc. I detest their economic policy, which would (IMHO) be far worse than even Labours has been...but no one mentions it...the MSM just keep harping on about immigration and repatriation. Combat them positively, as you have over the last few days, that is the way forward.

jafo said...

You are right, Iain. Broadcast media won't engage with the BNP and Archbishops tell people not to vote for them - but they are a legal political party. Doesn't matter whether "the establishment" like the BNP or not - this kind of behaviour is counter-productive.

This way, the only view voters get of the BNP is the picture they choose to put forward of themselves, which naturally paints them as perfectly reasonable misunderstood martyrs.

Hopi Sen has a rather odd idea of politicians, doesn't he? No point in speaking to a BNP politician "because he'd only lie"? Does he think Labour and others always tell the truth then................

Anonymous said...

Iain you were warned that the BNP would gets seats but you kept deleting the the comments,sadly it's now happened and we now need to get them in the open and take them on,Labour has a lot to answer for being a one man party who was in charge when this happened,it's a sad day for the country but the voters have had their say.

canvas said...

The BNP won their two seats by only a few thousand votes. If more people actually bothered to go and vote this would never have happened.

Let this be a lesson for the general election - YOUR VOTE COUNTS. Voter apathy is a crime in itself.

If you don't vote - you can't complain.

Shame on the people who voted for the BNP.

Anonymous said...

Let's tell the truth about the BNP.
1. The BNP only does well in Labour-voting areas.
2. BNP voters are generally ex-Labour voters or belong to constituencies that are predominantly Labour voters.
3. The BNP's new success is wholly in response to policies of a Labour government - and I do not refer only to expenses.
4. A large number of the BNP's core voting constituency is made up of people who feel they have suffered personally or that their community has suffered as a result of Labour's immigration policy.
5. Many BNP voters feel, not necessarily wrongly, that Labour has pursued a deliberate policy of turning ethnic groups in the north against each other for partisan advantage.
6. Labour voters, particularly in the North of England, have felt for some time that they and their votes have been taken for granted by Labour, that they have been overlooked as Labour panders alternately to Southern England and to local ethnic minorities.

Let's just tell the truth: Labour has fucked their own core voters over royally. They have taken people who have voted faithfully (though, I think, wrongheadedly) for Labour for generations and they have shat all over them. In response, these voters have turned to the BNP.

Two things emerge: first, it will (as usual) be the job of a Conservative government to fix the godawful mess that Labour has made and one aspect of that mess is Labour's release of the BNP genie. Second, I think the Labour voters who turned BNP may not wish to return to Labour again. This, in other words, may not be an anti-Labour protest vote by Labour voters so much as a final desertion by Labour voters of a party which they feel has deserted them.

Just my tuppence worth, but what do I know?

JuliaM said...

"Any normal person listening to his tortured logic would never have voted for him in a month of Sundays."

You are forgetting the 'two fingered salute' vote.

Anonymous said...

Again Iain you and other mainstream parties miss the point, and you continue to do this, time and time again, and while you do, you encourage more people to vote for the far right.

You just continue to ignore the immigration debate. You all just don't want to talk about it. Do you?

This topic of debate is very very deep and their are many issues within it.

You just don't get it do you?
You are intelligent people but on immigration you continue to insist on mass immigration. NO BEBATE, WHY?

So carry on ignoring it, just like you do with a vote on Europe.
All mainstream politicians continue to tell us what we are going to have. You lot know best. That's ok continue to bury your head in the sand, it will only get worse. look out for the BNP in the Westminster Parliament. Is that what you want?

Simon Gardner said...

Don’t tell me my vote counts at a parliamentary election. There is no conceivable way my vote will count.

albertmbankment said...

Spot on, Mr. D. Take, for example, John Humphrys' risible interview with Nick Griffin this morning. The whole thing was structured for JH to parade the fact that he hated the BNP more than ANYBODY, and with whipped cream and a little cherry on the top.

It was a nakedly partial rant which, if the roles had been reversed, have resulted in NG being rightly mocked.

All the politicians, and most of the commentators, are missing (or, more likely, avoiding) the issue that the BNP address many of the concerns of many of the people. You don't cure a malaise by mocking it.

Tony said...

I just switch over whenever Griffin & Co are on air. You don't have to listen and this action doesn't make them martyrs, just ignored.

Simon Gardner said...

I have always thought it entirely conceivable that Britons might vote nazi and elect a nazi and so it has proved.

Chalcedon said...

That's two fingers to the political establishment! They must start listening and also act on immigration. They must not be frightened of the R word any longer.

Anonymous said...

Mr Dale, like it or not, nearly 1,000,000 people voted for the British National Party in the Euro Elections 2009, an increase of 13.4% over 2004. In addition extreme right wing parties are gaining seats all over Europe. To say that the electorate have been hoodwinked, deceived or tricked is somewhat condescending and insulting.
I respect you for the fact that you are prepared to debate the policies openly, unlike the media, 'liberal elite', main stream political parties and some of the morons who appear on internet blogs.
A few weeks ago on this blog, in response to you again stating that the BNP should be faced 'head on', a number of correspondents made numerous points in favour of the BNP and their policies. Your response was to ignore them and not take them on in debate. This behaviour mirrors that of every UK mainstream political party for the last sixty years.
My first question to you for debate is this :-
Demographics predicts that within the next forty or fifty years Muslims will be in the majority in the United Kingdom (and many other European Countries). What guarantees can you or your party give me that my daughter and grand daughter will not have to live under Sharia Law ?
I would add that aspects of this law are in operation in the UK today.

Bart said...

You say that the BNP are 'very proficient in hiding their racist agenda'.

If it is hidden, how do you know that it exists?

And if, somehow, you have discovered their hidden 'racist agenda', could you please tell us what it is?

canvas said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jake said...

I listened to your interview with Griffin and he actually said he would help anyone from an ethnic minority if requested but didn't expect them to do so as they would be more likely to approach another party.
You are misrepresenting him and by doing so are playing into his hands. You should pay more attention to your guests when interviewing them or atleast check th transcripts before commenting.

canvas said...

Simon Gardner says "There is no conceivable way my vote will count"

Every vote counts.

“Tolerance it a tremendous virtue, but the immediate neighbors of tolerance are apathy and weakness.”

Little Black Sambo said...

"There is a desperate need for a new, centrist anti-fascist campaign."
The main fascists are New Labour and the huge bureacracy that controls our lives. The campaign against them seems to be already gathering force. Why need a "new" one I do not understand. Just join in the existing one.

bitter tears said...

Shame on the people who voted for the BNP.

June 08, 2009 11:17 AM

did'ums canvas cant stop crying.

canvas said...

to anon at 11:23 > there is an immigration debate going on but in a non-racist and non-sectarian way.

Perhaps it is people like you who are ignorant of the facts who think the BNP has addressed this immigration issue in a sensible way?

Wake up and smell the coffee. The BNP spread hatred and fear. There is little debate about that fact.

Rebel Saint said...

"The BNP only does well in Labour-voting areas"

No ... The BNP does well in areas affected by mass immigration which also happen to be areas with a traditional Labour vote.

No-one dare speak about immigration because as soon as they open their mouths they are labelled "racist/facist". It's a bit like the "homophobe/bigot" label that's brandished whenever you disagree with the gay rights agenda.

Bart said...

Iain, according to Jake you misrepresented Griffin quite badly. That's a serious charge. If it is true, I shall have to doubt your honesty on other issues too.

Let us see that interview please, so that we can judge.

Anonymous said...

Anybody who say Nick Griffin with Brillopad on the Daily Politics, would never have voted for him.

Ironically, the "anti-fascists" were outside to harrass him ... as if that will solve anything.

Let the man speak, he's a bloody idiot and it's better we know it.

The Penguin said...

100% agree with you on this, Iain.

The Penguin

acadman said...

Listening to all the politicians wringing their hands on the BBC Euro coverage last night, it was obvious to me that the main parties are still in complete denial about why people are voting BNP. I am no fan of the BNP, but the fact is that you have to understand what is really happening in the Old Mill Towns of the north east and north west rather than burying your head in the sand.

The pattern of immigration there is wholly different from what the Metropolitan elite sees down in London, where talented young people come from all over the world to create a vibrant, exotic atmosphere.

In places like Oldham, Dewsbury and Bradford its very different. There you have mass immigration from rural areas of Paikstan of usually badly educated Muslims who are very conservative, and sometimes fundamentalist in their beliefs. The engine of immigration here is forced and arranged marriage. It relies in many cases on the virtual slavery of young Asian women who are married off to cousins in Pakistan at a very early age, even been taken out of school.

The engine of immigration being marriage to a British citizen, it also means that young British Asians in these towns are actively discouraged from relationships with whites and the immigrants themselves usually bring little in the way of skills or economic contribution. Often they wont even learn English.

Quietly but rapidly, we are getting the creation of mini Belfast's with segregation between different and culturally incompatible groups of people.

Effectively, what is happening is the whoelsale import of conservative, rural Pakistani tribal cultures into Northern cities. The indigenous population is both resentful and frightened.

The major parties are too morally and intellectually cowardly to leave their Metropolitan comfort zones and confront this issue, so expect the BNP to continue to grow amongst the forgotten and the alienated.

Simon Gardner said...

No every vote does NOT count. I agree it did in the Euro-election. But that certainly is completely untrue in a General Election. In fact really very few peoples’ votes count.

Mine most certainly doesn’t.

Anonymous said...

Canvas 11.28
Me thinks that it you who needs to wake up and smell the coffee. You are typical of the political elite who seek to denigrate any one who doesn't share your views on the issues. It is you who is ignorant of the reasons why people are voting in the way they are doing.

Do you consider yourself to be something special that you can call other people ignorant?

The immigration debate has been going on for decades but it's not a debate that people now want. They want immigration stopped. They want to stop immigrants going to the top of the queue for housing and other social services, to which they have contributed nothing. The volumes of immigrants are overwhelming in many areas. Just here for economic benefits, not beacuse they love our country and want to be part of our society.

So you wake up and smell the coffee and don't be so ignorant yourself. Go and join Gordon and spout the same crap that he comes out with. But it don't wash with me and millions of others. Don't you like democracy, or is it available just for people like you?

Hopalong Hewitt said...

In the end, the BNP got two seats.

It should be noticed, that despite calling themselves the "British" National Party, the core of their support, and their seats are coming from England.
Lamentably, they have gained votes from the Scots and Welsh, but their real mandate comes from the men and women of Lancashire and Yorkshire.

Most worrying of all, is that there is no law to prevent them from spouting their (almost) outright racism.

Sad days indeed.


The election of the BNP MEPs should be welcomed by lovers of democracy everywhere.
Hopefully, this will make the mainstream parties realise why this has happened.
It has come about from the disconnect they have from the voters.
Both Labour and the Tories have over the years become too PC, too Pro-Europe and too soft on immigration.
The main parties and Liabour especially have also become extremely undemocratic and corrupt.
To defeat the BNP, the main parties need to listen to their voters, adopt policies more in tune with their thinking and become honest and accountable.
Today's success for the BNP was democracy in action.
I said as much on my blogs this morning.

Rebel Saint said...

Everybody is missing the elephant in the room ... in the North East of the country 147,338 still voted for the official fascist party. Unbelievable. Uneducated, ignorant, knuckle-dragging thugs the lot of 'em.

Anonymous said...

The BNP are not "reprehensible", they believe that politics should be about the long term.
The liberal social order we have in Great Britain is not "the historical norm" it is a spark in the pan. If you dilute it - and 1m immigrants/year is diluting it very quickly - IT WILL NOT STAND, and gays and women and secular thought WILL be plunged into the abyss of a new dark age.

The BNP are not "reprehensible" they are extremely brave. Why run the risks that they run as individuals if they do not believe what they are doing is for the best?

Are they "reprehensible" because they are advocating violence? NO.
Yet Sinn Fein did just that for years, yet the MSM and the main political parties now bow down at their feet anytime they go into the studios.

The BNP is not "reprehensible", it is the main stream parties that are reprehensible for selling two thousand years of our history down the river in exchange for hoping they will pick up a few floating voters in the immigrant community.

To quote Churchill once more: "Last night for the first time in years I slept the sleep of the thankful and the saved"

javelin said...

Iain a few people here are saying you misrepresented the BNP. Please publish a transcript of what exactly was said to prove them wrong.

Anonymous said...

Mr Dale
My second question to you is this :-
The Deputy Prime Minister of the United Kingdom Harriet Harman, together with other members of the government and of her party, are currently proceeding with legislation which favours women and members of ethnic minorities specifically. Please explain to me why this is not racist as it discriminates against my white son and grandson, purely because of their gender and COLOUR OF THEIR SKIN ? Why aren't you, your party, the media 'up in arms' about this blatant racism ?

Godzilla said...

The BNP is a dripping tap and that can cause a flood as much as running water.

You can stop the tap in one quick way. Get Griffin on Newsnight in an interview with Jeremy Paxman. Paxman could in 5 mins tear him apart with argument rather than with this unwise policy of ignoring them.

If this was well publicised like the Question Time debates with Margaret Beckett were you would in one stroke destroy everything they have, with some success, built.

Unsworth said...


Define 'normal person'.

I really don't think one can argue that such a 'person' exists these days. After all, any 'normal person' faced with the public revulsion over expenses etc would have decently resigned. It's clear, therefore, that those we elect as our representatives are not 'normal' - and that includes such people as Griffin.

What does that tell us about the electorate?

What does it tell us about the electors' views?

Tomfiglio said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Simon Gardner said...

The idea that Harriet Harman is Deputy PM is risible and inaccurate. Being deputy leader of the Labour Party does not make her Deputy PM.

If anyone is Deputy PM, it’s Mandy who has not been given that actual title solely because he is a Peer.

This Observer said...

I see your point, but I think you're wrong to write the BNP vote off as a bunch of people sympathetic to "martyrs".

If you'll permit me a link, I've written a piece on my views at

I argue that to somehow assume that the electorate didn't know exactly who they were voting in and to instead accredit the 2 BNP seats to a misinformed public is to draw the wrong message entirely from these elections.

Anonymous said...

If Hopi Sen were correct Brown and Mandy would never be interviewed.

canvas said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Rebel Saint said...

Godzilla said..."Get Griffin on Newsnight in an interview with Jeremy Paxman. Paxman could in 5 mins tear him apart with argument rather than with this unwise policy of ignoring them."

Sadly, I doubt whether he would. I suspect he'd turn on him like Humphrey's did this morning. He wouldn't talk about the ISSUES (...sorry to use the word ISSUES again!), he'd simply bang on about whether they were racist and whether he used to be a holocaust denier. What they wouldn't do is say, so by 2040 you claim the UK will be an Islamic state and our children will be subject to Sharai law ... what is your evidence for that and why is that a problem?

The government made it illegal to broadcast Sinn Fein and the media bent over backwards to make sure they were heard. The government allow the BNP to have a voice and the media refuse to let them be heard. Which is the most reprehensible?

canvas said...

to anon at 11:42

We should all stand up for a humane and intelligent immigration policy in a way that, frankly, the BNP does not do and will never do.

You defend the indefensible.

Rich T said...

"One reason perfectly decent, non racist people, feel able to vote for the BNP is that they are very proficient in hiding their racist agenda."

Wrong - people are racist. Thats why they supported them. If you don't know that the BNP are racist then you must be from Mars.

Oliver Drew said...

Perhaps this will be a lesson for the mainstream media - though I think it is an abhorrent one.

As a Yorkshireman, I'm embarrased that enough people voted for the BNP to win them an MEP. They should be ashamed of themselves.

But we must move on. We must do what should've been done a long time ago. We have to get the BNP onto mainstream shows such as Question Time, the Andrew Marr show etc. Interview and question them and then watch as the facade ultimately falls.

Interestingly enough I thought that Griffin was on the verge of losing it last night before the count - probably as a result of being threatened when he tried to enter the Manchester count and the BBC (rightly) haranguing him.

I actually enjoyed Hopi's contribution to your shows over the weekend, but I thought that his "no platform" policy nicely demonstrated the problem that the BNP cause. There is no shame in taking on the BNP and losing the debate (you probably wouldn't if you were a competent debater, and I and Donal did a great job Iain), but there really is shame in not taking them on at all.

bewick said...

Interesting Iain.
I AM largely apolitical, a floating voter in fact. So I DO trawl ALL political opinions including the BNP.(didn't vote for them)
At one point I registered on their site for the express purpose of being able to add comments when I was offended. Surprise surprise when I finally commented and was critical (and logically so) of their policies my comment was screened out.Repeatedly. ie I WAS a "dead parrot" as far as they were concerned. My "registration" even seemed to be cancelled so I registered again to see.A complaint received no response.

A consequence was though that I was regularly emailed by them. LAST week they finally displayed their total nastiness. I received an email which totally libellously implied that all Polling Clerks and Presiding Officers knew each other;had parasitic "false jobs" created for them by their Labour Party masters; and were likely engaged in fraudulently appropriating the votes of people who hadn't actually voted (the legal term is personation).
As an ex Senior Public Servant and erstwhile Presiding Officer I saw red in all shades. I immediately emailed them in very angry terms, called them morons, and demanded that I be removed from their database. NO response. I HOPE some Polling Clerks and POs take em for damages!

There IS though an issue. Although there was a low turnout it IS interesting that dissatisfaction with Europe was a major factor. The BNP vote IS one facet of that. IF you add up the anti-europe votes, and the Torys may even be included in that at one level, then it IS clear AND supported by polls that MOST people want some change (and a referendum on the treaty, aka federalisation)which at the very least severely restricts the powers of the totally undemocratic Commission.
I am also quite sure that immigration IS an issue for most,including past immigrants and their descendants, particularly in cities,but,to be honest, only the BNP actually have the balls to say so unfortunately.
Most others are still scared of being called racist if they dare to state that (still) uncontrolled immigration IS a problem. But of course the BNP, just like MOST political parties, IS adept at hiding its real agenda.

Final conclusion? Sorry but I think MOST politicians are practiced liars, including the BNP

ALL parties should sit up and take notice of what the election, Europe wide, IS telling them. IF they do not then I rather fear that the storming of the Bastille will look like a very minor blip in European history.

haddock said...

If immigration is the problem,and I think it is in part, then the Conservative Party under Cameron can do nothing at all to sort it out.
Immigration is a matter for the EU and happens because of their laws. Until pigs fly and Cameron agrees to get us out of the EU the problems will remain...and grow.
How many Turks will arrive as a result of his support for EU enlargement, perhaps Dave believes it will be the same number as from Eastern Europe.... about 14,000 wasn't it ?

Anonymous said...

Who the hell is Hopi Sen?

Who the hell elected them?

Have they ever polled 943,598 votes?

All 943,598 who voted BNP, thought long and hard about it.

Hopi Sen, if that is his real name, want to deny those people a voice, he is the true Fascist, and you should not appear with him again Iain.

Anonymous said...

Racism is a Marxist construct, modern genetics proves that there is only one race the human race it comes in a variety of shapes, sizes and colours.
Why can the MSM overlook the fact that many of the labour party were members of the communist party and apologists for Stalinism , Maoism and other totalitarian ideologies, yet throw the past at Nick Griffin. Our European culture is under attack by the those who preach cultural equivalence and multiculturalism. Griffin is a response to this.
Our chancellor Alistair Darling was a Trotskite apparatchnik in his youth who now presides over the capitalist financial system he wanted to destroy yet no one accuses him of a hidden agenda. Give Griffin the space and he will change. His bete noire Islam is a real issue in working class communities in northern cities because of "Grooming" Anne Cryer a Labour MP is one of the few who raise this and other Islamic issues, she was ostracised for her pains. Only Griffin address these unpleasant aspects of immigrants culture.

Anonymous said...

Canvas should get a life. I never mentioned the BNP in any of my comments and I never defended them.

What a pity there is no intelligence in you to understand what I was saying.

Must be the poor standard of education today in Labour's Britain.

John said...

Iain : you miss the point. We are, like all animals, genetically programmed to be suspicious of or reject those not of our group and there are clear evolutionary, survival reasons for this.

This instinct is NOT racism which is the belief that your own race or group is superior to another - incidentally the professed belief of Muslims.

When there is an influx of outsiders, it is instinctively felt they may compete for jobs, housing and resources or change the established society and culture. That frightens people.

The perception increases with the numbers of those coming in.

It does not matter if the perception is right or wrong - perception IS reality.

The problem with mainstream politics is to confuse peoples' genuine concerns and perception, based on instinctive insecurity, with racism and thus launch ad hominem attacks on anyone who voices their reasonable concerns by branding them and what they say racist.

The BNP has been able to tap into this because they are the only ones to listen and sympathise. I do not think people are in any way unaware of what the BNP stands for, in fact I am sure they are very aware and voting for them is a warning to the mainstream politicians that they had better start listening to peoples' concerns rather than vilifying them.

You are right the BNP should be publicly debated, if not just better to understand racism and make a distinction between it and our fear of the different and the other; not a sense of superiority.

You have an opportunity via your blog and other outlets, to make clear this difference, and encourage politicians to engage the People on a subject which is very important rather than resort to name-calling and telling them to shut up.

Cinnamon said...

I also remember Griffin saying something very different than to what you're claiming he did.

Transcript and podcast please?

peter_dtm said...

NO Ian

one of the reason people have voted BNP is quite simple :


what is so hard for the conservative leadership to understand on this; the other reason is also simple :

UNREGULATED OPEN IMMIGRATION (including that from within the EU)

neither is a racist problem

get a referendum on the EU as a PROMISE - remember each parliament is sovereign so the illegal signing of the Lisbon constitreay can be un-signed in ANY parliament. SO even if it has been ratified; we the sovereign people can demand that we get our sovereign rights BACK



Anonymous said...

British Legal System Vs Shari'ah PDF Print E-mail
1. Mugging - You have probably suffered this at least once in your life, or know someone who has suffered it.
The British Legal System: The sentence is discretionary, depending on the crime, but is commonly punished by community service.

The Islamic Judicial System: Once guilt is ascertained, the judge will consider the severity of the crime and perform ijtihaad (i.e. extracting the rule from the Qur'aan and the Sunnah). This may range from public humiliation to death, if the mugging led to death.

2. Burglary - Burglary is extremely common in Britain. No doubt, you are afraid that your house may get burgled if you are away for any period of time.

The British Legal System: The sentence is discretionary, depending on the crime, but is commonly punished with imprisonment.

The Islamic Judicial System: Burglars will have their hand cut off, provided they fulfil the seven conditions for this punishment. They are not permitted to have it surgically replaced.

3. Rape - There is a rape in Britain on average every 2.5 hours. Many more go unreported, and in most cases the perpetrator is known to the victim.

The British Legal System: The sentence is discretionary, but the punishment ranges from a fine to life imprisonment. Commonly, the period of imprisonment is below 10 years.

The Islamic Judicial System: The punishment can be death, depending on the circumstances.

4. Drug Abuse - This is extremely common among all ages, particularly the youth. It is often seen as a harmless habit. Perhaps you are worried about a child or relative; if not, you probably should be.

The British Legal System: The punishment depends on the nature of the drug, and the quantity possessed. Alcohol is legal. For ‘soft' drugs, offenders are usually just cautioned, but ‘hard' drug abusers (like cocaine, heroin) may be imprisoned.

The Islamic Judicial System: Offenders are publicly flogged 80 lashes.

5. Fornication & Adultery - With the emphasis in our society placed on relationships and sexual freedom, you would be justified in fearing for the conduct of young or indeed older Muslims who are subject to its influence.

The British legal System: Both of these are legal, whether done between members of the opposite sex or the same sex (i.e. homosexuality). In fact, if you were to criticise these you would be blamed for intolerance and discrimination.

The Islamic Judicial System: Fornication is punished by flogging 100 lashes. Adultery and homosexual fornication are both punished by public execution.

The objective behind the administration of justice in Islam is to act as a deterrent, to reform offenders and to secure society. As you can see, the nature of sentences in the Islamic Judicial System ensures that these objectives are achieved. History bears witness to this - only about 200 hands are recorded to have been cut in the entire history of the Islamic State!

In the West, however, up to 70% of convicted prisoners re-offend once they are released, and the rates of crime are hardly indicative of a successful deterrent. One of the fundamental problems in the West is the complete contradiction of the ideology that is pushed upon the people. On the one hand, they are told that freedom is the basic right of the individual. This, however, is an open license to commit crime. When this is combined with the concept of democracy, the contradiction becomes apparent. For democracy is a system of making laws - devices to restrict freedom. The result of this conceptual mish-mash is chaos!

The justice which the Islamic State's Judicial System proffers will offer you peace of mind, security and confidence that your rights will not be abused. After the checks and balances of personal taqwaa (fear of God) and the effect of public opinion, the last level of regulation - the Islamic Judicial System guarantees that the world will be free from the exploitation and corruption of man-made law, and the rising tide of crime that complements it.

AProlefrom1984 said...

well said, David T. These so-called anti-fascists are worse than the BNP in their extreme interpretation of everything. In a democracy, all voices should be heard, not just the ones you like. Griffin claimed he only wanted to send back illegals, not everyone who is non white. He got away with this statement because all 3 main parties now advocate an amnesty for illegals, overcrowded as we are.
And as Canvas has pointed out, the turnout was pathetic. But that's because many parties only talk to voters in marginal seats and not the rest of us. And the voting system must be changed. And the mass media should stop promoting the PC brigade in the shape of the 3 lame parties.
I voted UKIP on Thursday and would vote for them at every election thereafter despite the hostility they face from the mass media. Eamonn Holmes on Sky this morning was a particular disgrace when he interviewed Nigel Farage.

peter_dtm said...

how about the torry party organise an a-political protest in Parliament square demanding this corrupt government stand down ?

talk to the libdems; ukip; everyone else - show some leadership & start organising this NOW

or are the torries afraid of 'people power' ?

Anonymous said...

Iain - I totally agree that "no platforming" is a bad idea, and allowing them to dig their own holes to jump in is a far better policy. Your interviews are a good example of what the BBC should do.

I disagree, however, about the majority of BNP voters not knowing what they were voting for. This may be true of a minority but in general I am sure they are quite aware. To say otherwise is pretty arrogant.

The white underclass living in sh*tholes in the north and London might as well be aliens as far as the lefty liberals in the BBC are concerned, but like it or not, they do exist, and like it not, they may be racist.

What they want to hear is that their current predicament is not their fault, that they can blame someone else (anyone), and that someone will somehow make it alright. In places where there are large numbers of immigrants, be that Polish, Asian, or whatever, they are an obvious target.

Previously the target might have been "Thatcher", or the "Nasty Tory Party", but with a Labour government now in power, they have found that this wasn't really the answer.

John (again) said...

"... Alistair Darling was a Trotskite apparatchnik in his youth who now presides over the capitalist financial system he wanted to destroy... "

It seems to me he has succeeded.

Peter said...

The simple fact is that Labour's policies on immigration and its failure to implement the law plus the courts inertia have put race relations in this country back a generation and bred mistrust.
In these conditions the BNP has had an easy ride. In the past the National Front was simply an irrelevance.

Anonymous said...

Your not far wrong mate.
The message from these elections is that Labour's core vote has simply collapsed.
Many traditional labour voters stayed at home while others sought a more active method of protest.
The white working class here outside London is quite frankly disgusted with labour and refuses to vote for a party which as far as it is concerned no longer cares about its' traditional ecconomic base, engages in foreign military adventures of dubius merit and is run by a slimy cabal which lines it's pockets at the expense of the tax-payer.
Vote Labour - Banks,Wars and Expenses!!!
In so many small ways from motoring costs to the smoking ban Labour has created an atmosphere where the ordinary working man no longer regards the party as being on his side.
It's all well and good for the metropolitian elite to laud the virtues of "multiculturalism and diversity" but they don't actually live with the consequences, it's not their towns which have been transformed beyond any recognition by an influx of people who don't speak our language and don't accept or values.
The working class accepted EEC membership on the grounds that it would help generate trade, friendship and prosperity but what did it get ???
A bloated undemocratic "Union" which churns out regulations and directives whilst providing yet another neat gravy train.
We have a political class stuffed full of people who have never done a days real work in their lives but presume to tell us what they think is best for everbody.
Lets face it folks what the hell have Harriet Harman or David Milliband got in common with a redundant steelworker in Rotherham?
Anbody who doesn't understand why the BNP is picking up votes in England must have their head in a bucket, in Scotland and Wales it's respectable to vote for the "nationalists" but the SNP doesn't stand in Barnsley.

Instead of flouncing off the stage like sulky children when a succesful BNP candidate
exercises his lawful right to make a speech maybe the would care to LISTEN TO THE ELECTORATE!!!

DaveA said...

@Rebel Saint.

2040 is too soon, the date is 2100 where Europeans will be a minority in the UK. As many posters have rightly pointed out, if you live in an area of high ethnic concentration like I do in east London it is disconcerting to see 16 year olds wearing the Hijab to give an example. This not people's attitudes need to be addressed.

The provenance for 2100 is from the Guardian, no less.

VotR said...

I feel that the BNP vote was heavily co-ordinated amongst their campaigners and well organised underground elements agitating the voter against Labour.

Harman preaching her positive discrimination has created a tidal wave of opposite reactions by voters choosing the BNP. If she doesn't shut that drivel up, things will only get worse and she probably won't acknowledge she's done anything worng by blaming all responsibility on the 'expenses' scandal.

If positive discrimination and the so-called equalities bill isn't shelved with immediateness, then the far right parties will gain even more power. Harriet and Gordon may be in denial, but they are also covering their backs by distracting the blame to expenses and not the discrimination they have generated.

Anyone who has supported the equlaities bill must be named, shamed and blamed for the advancement of the BNP, who have portrayed the non-minority voter as a second class citizen. Harm Man and co. have given the BNP all the ammo they need to do that. Harriet and her supporters, including Brown it seems, should be ousted and never allowed to take power again.

Shame on Labour. Positive discrimination has been met with voter empowered negative discrimination, which will result in chaos. When will they ever learn?

Windsor Tripehound said...

Instead of wringing their hands, politicians of all the main parties should be asking themselves how it is that they've totally failed to address the concerns of the poor, white, working class.

It's all very well asserting that immigration is "good for the economy" when you live in comfort and are looking for a couple of Polish builders to knock up your kitchen extension on the cheap, but if you live in a run-down area, are out of work and perceive (rightly or wrongly) that the character of your neighbourhood is being changed by incomers who are getting preferential treatment regarding employment and housing, you are not quite so sanguine.

These guys might be wrong in their perceptions, but to simply dismiss them as "racists" is to totally miss the point. They don't want kicking down, they need lifting up.

DespairingLiberal said...

UKIP's new NW MEP did correctly point out this morning that it is the hyping-up of BNP by both Labour and Conservatives that have contributed to their mini-surge (actual percentage vote for the BNP wasn't changed much but with an increased split in the vote and PR, the results are as they are), so to some extent I think exposing them with interviews helped them.

I have to say in all honesty Iain that you did not get the better of Nick Griffin. I don't like to admit it, but he is a very clever speaker, full of innocent-sounding apologias and critiques that do convince, particularly on the corruption of the main parties.

The real root of it though is the crisis in provision to the poor and working class in many areas of the country, particularly in SOCIAL HOUSING which has been derided and sidelined by both major parties for many years now.

Social housing provision is still incidentally a cornerstone of government policy throughout the rest of the hated Europe.

Anonymous said...

Aon 12.25

Very well put, a great contribution to the debate.

Millions of people see it this way.

East Midlander said...

I am totally fed up of the description of the BNP as a right wing party. They are not, they are extreme LEFT WING SOCIALISTS.copying the Nazi's IE National Socialist agenda of racial superiorority, total state control ect, ect, ect,.
Iain raised this in a well written Blog some time ago pointing out better than I can the above. Humphrey and Boulton take notice! Laughable Left Wing Creeps who should not be critising like minded lefties.

Mirtha Tidville said...

Anon @ 12.25

Very well said and really does put it all into context...if only someone in power would listen but no they dont, because they know best..

Anonymous said...

It is incumbent on the people of Britain and moreover the whole of the world to submit to the Will of Allah (SWT), and testify that there is none truly worthy of worship except Allah (SWT) and that Muhammad (pbuh) is His Final Messenger and furthermore implement the Shari'ah (Islamic Law) of Muhammad (pbuh) as a matter of obedience to their Creator.


Dino Fancellu said...

Adam Boulton's interview with Nick Griffin was appalling.

It was so obvious he had an agenda, he worked so hard to twist what Nick Griffin had to say, instead of judging by what he did say. He looked like he was going to busy a blood vessel live on air, whereas Nick Griffin kept his cool at all times.

Nick Griffin is undoubtedly quite a racist, but it serves none of us well to pretend that Islam is not a threat to the British way of life.

If you don't believe me, try reading the Quaran.

Paul said...

You're right. Give him enough rope and he'll hang himself.

"Geiffen interview"

Don't you mean "Geffen interview"? - or were you not interviewing the legendary record publisher? John Lennon used to have his solo records published on Geffen records.

No - I digress, don't I?

James D said...

Well, if all else fails, we can always get Gerry Adams to do a voiceover...

andrewha said...

Nick Griffin condemning himself out of his own mouth by citing Maureen Lipman & Gaby Roslin as part of the 'worldwide Jewish conspiracy':

Plato said...

12.21 Anon - there is a lot of common sense in what you wrote - as well as other Anons that mention fear of others who aren't like themselves.

The BNP have tapped into this and combined it with the most nationalistic language and imagery - Union Jacks, Churchill, Victory signs.

From what I understand - the wards were the BNP have done well are not always those with high immigrant populations.

They are two sorts of BNP voter - those who don't like the alien feeling of their local community, and those who feel that Labour hasn't taken care of them and has favoured others who are 'incomers' who aren't neighbours but resource rivals.

Whilst the BNPs vote is actually not much different from last time - there are several factors at work, including turn-out and postal voting changes.

Whatever the issue - no platform is a very silly and childish approach to tackling those whom we dislike. The main stream parties would be much better off listening to what the BNP are saying and working out how to fix the issues instead of shouting racist Nazi scum at them.

Philipa said...

My co-host, Hopi Sen, wouldn't take part in the interview on the basis that he'd only lie anyway

Well at least he declares that; sort of honest about lying which is more than we get from Westminster or indeed the dead tree press. They lie and keep trying to convince us they're honest as the day is long and any factual error either doesn't exist or isn't their fault.

I've tried to make a comment on Peter Hitchens' BNP thread, to no avail. These are my attempts:


Sir, I've been told that the BNP website states: "anyone not born here who commits a crime here should be deported". Haven't you been arrested, Mr Hitchens and according to the BNP should you be deported?

Posted by: Sixth Try | 05 June 2009 at 04:39 PM
Posted by: Umpteenth Try! | 05 June 2009 at 04:41 PM

I remember PH had tried to see his MI5(?) file so wondered if this was because he'd been arrested or just deemed in dangerous company? (not difficult in fleet st) And whether this would cause him to be deported under BNP rules? (I thought PH a better bet than Fr Cliff Richard or St. Lumley) But that question was never put in print. I changed tack:

"Mr Hitchens, I attempted a comment on the BNP's own words but seven tries have not been published, despite including a request to tell me why as the moderators have my email address. Of course the moderators may publish a comment after the fact, ie. way down the list, in fact pages down. They have slipped in a comment as if published days before when in fact it hasn't been. I have looked for this but think it a shabby practice, as is changing the date submitted and in fact the text. Before you criticise the contributor, perhaps you should put your own house in order.

Posted by: Eighth Try | 06 June 2009 at 12:16 PM
Hitchensblog BNP thread.

I wondered if it was personal and posted some unrelated benign comment on a different thread, which was published.

From those comments published on the thread it seems mine was not the only one not published as other contributors mentioned difficulty in moderator discrimination. So it seems to me that when it comes to the BNP the media carefully present the picture they want to present, including the picture of public opinion they want to create. And the questions they want asked.

This causes people to suspect that the BNP are being unfairly treated and makes it more likely that people will ignore negative comment about them.

Iain I think your approach is best - let the BNP say what they want and let the public decide. Don't over-manage the debate. It's what democracy is all about.

A regular commentor who wants to remain anonymous for obvious reasons said...

I live in Bradford.

My local church has had Islamic graffiti sprayed over it [I'll post the pics if you want] and is covered in anti-vandal devices whilst the mosque 100m away is unprotected & pristine. Other local walls have been spray painted with threats of violence & riots if we support Israel and death threats to jews.

In many of the local schools I visit, English is a 2nd language to the MAJORITY of the children - disadvantaging those for who English is their native tongue.

Muslims are allowed out of classes early on Fridays or other "Holy days". Many of them taken unauthorised absence for months at a time to got to Pakistan.

Corporal punishment is still practised in many of the Madrassas they attend.

If you want to know what it is to be subject to hatred, put on a skull cap and come and take a walk around West Bowling or Thornton or Manningham.

Meanwhile the chattering political classes pontificate and throw their arms up aghast at how the horrible, hate-filled ignoramuses could vote BNP.

DespairingLiberal said...

East Midlander, the Nazis were not socialists - they hated the bedrock of socialism, Trade Unions, arresting their leaders and deporting them to camps. They did not nationalise industry, they procured heavily in the armaments sphere from corporations left in private hands, hugely enriching the likes of the Thyssen and Krupp families. That is why members of those families were sent to prison after the war.

Extreme nationalism has nothing to do with (genuine) socialism, which calls for peace and understanding between all human beings of all nations and (in the Marxist interpretation) regards the concept of nation as a fraud and psuedo-history, invented by the ruling classes to help divide working people.

Anonymous said...

Gordon Brown will resign tonight

VotR said...

The BNP may be far left socialists in speech and presentation, as the Nazi's were before they manipulated the democratic process. But like the Nazi's, it's only a matter of time before they will become far right in their actions, if granted a power base. Which they now have. A larger powerbase than the UK.

How long before the first detention centre becomes a persuasive resettlement camp, and then a concentration camp? The cheque's in the post.

Andy said...

I think the problem is more than one of misunderstanding; and that makes the assumption that the electorate are stupid. I think that people who vote BNP know exactly whom they are voting for. So why do they do so?

We can probably all agree that as individuals it would be incredibly difficult to find a party that matches 100% your own views of the world. I, for example, disagree with much of the LPUK's manifesto ideas, but still find that they resonate most closely with my opinions - I would vote for them despite that disagreement.

I suspect that voters who have been, say, life long Labour voters; probably working class; probably very pro-union; pro-socialism have found that there is a political vaccum for what they want. The BNP are (despite what the media says) a hard left party, RacistLabour would be a good name for them. I wonder then, if they are getting votes from people who would not consider themselves racist because they find that the BNP's left wing, working man, policies resonate most closely with their own political views, and they don't care enough about not being racist that they give them their vote.

DespairingLiberal said...

Andy, what evidence do you have that the BNP are "hard-left" as you put it? Nearly all their prominenti appear to be former members of various neo-Nazi organisations. Or are you just repeating the formulaic lie that Nazis are socialists, which I have expertly dismissed above?

T England said...

Shame on the people who voted for the BNP.

I feel no shame what so ever!
In fact I'm very happy.

I've had to suffer the lefts agenda for nearly twelve years,the thought of lefties crying into their lentils over the BNP winning two MEP seats has made my year.

HEY lefties!
THE BNP are doing it & doing it, ROFLMAO :o)

Hey WV= excepe

DespairingLiberal said...

Yes, but according to others here T England, you just voted for the socialists!

Tomfiglio said...

The champagne socialists who infest the Labour party, media and education system will never face up to the fact that it is they who have created the BNP.

robonly said...

@ "A commentator....

I live in Southall, an area of London where white europeans make up just 12% of the population so don't talk to me about all that. Yet I don't see or hear any of the things you've described. All religions seem to co-exist peacefully here, no hatred that I'm aware of.

So ask yourself, who's at fault, the other religions (who hold us in contempt because of the superficial way we treat religion) or those who want to aggravate what they cannot understand? Besides you get Easter, Good Friday and Xmas Day as holidays so whats your beef?

If we as locals didn't encourage the differences, then the retaliation of the muslims, sikhs and so on wouldn't happen...

So be prejudiced if you want, but a lot of the people are third generation british born who have as much right to things as you or I do.

Anonymous said...


If you really want to make the BNP impotent, listen to what they are saying and adjust policy to take account of those who feel disafected. If you don't want to adjust policy then just accept that some people prefer BNP policies.

It is exactly the same thread as voting for UKIP or the Green party. I mean, come on, the clue is in the title! If you want main parties to be more green what better way to demonstrate how much vote they COULD have if they 'greened up' some of their policy.

That's the reason I voted UKIP - to send a message to the Conservatives that I want a more robust stance on the EU.

If you want to reduce the BNP back to nothing you had better start listening to the hundreds of thousands of people who want a more robust stance on immigration.

Philipa said...

I think the regular commentor who lives in Bradford (June 08, 2009 12:58 PM) has described the reasons why some people vote BNP.

Iain, will you host the pictures?
Bet you won't.

Steve H said...

***the majority of the British electorate have never had the opportunity to vote on whether or not we should be in this federation.***

The majority of the British public have never had the chance to vote on whether or not we should be in the UK. Why aren't you proposing a referendum on that?

Thomas Rossetti said...

I'm only saying what dozens of people have said before but I agree with you, Iain: this no platform idea hasn't worked. The BNP should be debated properly and it should be demonstated that their plans will not work.

Andy said...


I don't know enough about the BNP's membership to be able to comment on their past. I'm going only from their manifesto... which calls for larger state pensions, better worker rights, state ownership of industry, higher taxes, worker ownership of business.

I'm not a political science graduate, but you'll forgive me if those policies seem to me to be left rather than right wing.

I believe that the BNP has moved (bizarrely) from the right to the left under Nick Griffin -- which I think was a master stroke of political strategy; there was a gaping hole on the left just right for them to fill.

I'm happy to admit I'm wrong, but I don't think "their members used to be neo-Nazi's" says anything about the political orientation of their policies.

CryBaby said...

If everyone keeps going about this, they'll keep winning more seats. The BNP's agenda in Europe to trawl through the archives and get to the bottom of what they've been up to is a good one.

I dont support the BNP, but if it worries the main 3 parties, that's good enough for me!

Let's give them a chance and see what they do.

Wrinkled Weasel said...

Dan Tubb makes a valid point:

"the term ‘racist’ itself has been thoroughly devalued. Constant talk of institutional racism, and throwing the term racist at anyone who so much as mentions immigration means that when people who hear that BNP is a racist party they just ignore it. Because the left has devalued the term."

The left have devalued a loft of terms because they have imbued certain of them with what you might call a latent punishment/scapegoat value.

That is,they will be applied to all those who do not subscribe to a left-leaning liberal interpretation of society.

Other terms, that generally end in "phobic" are now routinely applied, like an over prescribed anti-biotic, to such an extent that their original impact is diminished.

It has taken a while for this to be understood, but most people now know what the game is.

As for Hopi Sen, it is his failure to engage in debate, and others on the left, that has brought about the BNP gains.

I support strong controls on immigration and strong rules on integration which will ensure that no-go areas for the indigenous English speaking population are removed. Call me a racist if you like, but you have already lost your argument.

And when, in 25 or 50 years time, Whites who hold to a loosely Judeo Christian world view are in a minority, and this country is under Sharia law, perhaps then, you might concede that you were wrong.

DespairingLiberal said...

Andy - I agree that Griffin is both clever and sophisticated. He is becoming highly skilled at the interview process and now routinely gets the better of nearly everyone - other than the (often slagged off here!) David Dimbleby, who made him look ridiculous last night!

I also agree with you that the BNP under Griffin have been clever enough to realise that the space is on the left.

I also agree with many people here who contrast NuLab's Mandlesohn/Blair/Brown obsession with the rich and champagne lifestyles as a key driver.

None of this means however that the BNP is in reality of the left. They are simply running an actually quite charmingly clever con game.

By their deeds do you know them. For example, nearly all their electoral candidates have criminal records (in many cases for violence, OK, maybe some of that was political violence, but in some for things like rape, peadophilia and even arson!) and all the senior ones have a neo-Nazi past.

I am quite sure that if the NSDAP (the Nazi party) were around today they would be using the language of the BNP. Just because they are faschists, does not mean they are stupid.

Caro said...

"... so Truth be in the field, we do injuriously, by licensing and prohibiting, to misdoubt her strength. Let her and Falsehood grapple; who ever knew Truth put to the worse, in a free and open encounter?" Milton - Areopagitica.

Martin said...

Sorry but I've not read so much bollocks in ages. Iain, sometimes you really do come across as a prat.

The "truth" in politics is not important. What counts is perception. People assume politicians lie all the time, but at least want politicians to say the things they think.

Go into any white working class pub in the north and the sort of views you hear from the BNP (and far worse) will be VERY common from people who normally vote Labour. The BNP have simply tapped into that feeling. You lot in the media come out with all these slick terms that most white working class people can't or don't want to listen to.

Be honest, Islam and Muslims don't do themsleves ANY favours in this Country do they? They make themselves easy targets for the BNP. The wet liberal elite use Islam to batter away at traditional Chirsitian views. For example, most Muslims oppose abortion and homosexuality, YET whenever the BBC has a discussion on these issues the BBC only ever puts someone up from the Christian Church. Why?

Muslims are seen shouting and spitting at our soldiers, it doesn't matter if it's just a handful. It's the image that counts. White working class people see their children being educated in schools where THEY are a minority. They don't care what the economic benefits of immigration are or are not when it's debated by liberal talking heads like YOU Iain. They see the very same wealthy liberals educating THEIR children in posh state schools or private education (Hattie Harperson and Diane Abbot being two that come easily to mind)

The liberal Islington elite don't get it. Now the BNP have a foothold it will grow. Success breeds success.

The answer is to deal with the problems.

1. Islam must be treated in the same way as other religions AND subject to the same ridicule. Why don't we see the piss being taken out of Muslims on TV in the same way we do for Christians and Jews for example?

2. Immigration needs to be brought under control NOW.

America has far fewer problems because in America you are told to love America wherever you come from. That doesn't happen here as the liberals that run the Country and the media (in particular the BBC) hate the Country, especially England. There is nothing to rally around.

S. Weasel said...

I would never discount the possibility that the people who voted BNP know exactly what the BNP is and that's why they voted for them. To assume that they simply didn't know what they were doing is pretty condescending.

Racism isn't so shocking and outré that nobody could ever ever ever ever espouse it. We're talking about beliefs and attitudes that our parents (and everyone who came before) held without question within our own lifetimes, however embarrassing we might find that. Let's not pretend they're unthinkable.

T England said...

"Yes, but according to others here T England, you just voted for the socialists2!

They can call them what they like, I call them the BNP, right, left or center, I just don't care :o)

Anonymous said...

It's obvious that Iain Dale doesn't want to have the debate. Hours later, and his response to my two questions (like the other numerous questions on earlier blogs) remain unanswered. I believe he cannot answer them. He like all the mainstream polititians is in denial. He knows full well that it is the past policies of Tory governments and those of Labour which has caused the huge problems which Britain faces today. Unfortunately none of them have the answers.

AProlefrom1984 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Yak40 said...

ConservativeHome lays the blame entirely at the feet of Gordon Brown


Certainly Labour have effectively suppressed any discussion about immigration concerns since being in office, preferring to screech racism and so on, but both Con. and LibDem showed a lack of spine as well tho' the Conservatives tried to bring it forward in 2005 to the expected media hysteria.

The fact is that there's been so real debate on the subject since Powell's famous speech.

The pols & media also deliberately cloud the issue by lumping legal and illegal immigration together which is of no help either.

So now the BNP has two MEPs, the only surprise is that it didn't happen sooner.

DespairingLiberal said...

You seemed to care earlier on T England - "i've had to suffer the lefts agenda for nearly twelve years" - could it be that you were conned? I am curious - do you feel conned? According to most right-wingers, including Melanie Phillips and Tim Montgomerie, the BNP are a left-wing party.

Jon Forest said...

I think you are indulging in wishful thinking.
Nearly everyone I know would secretly like there to be far fewer immigrants in this country, particularly ones from cultures that do not seem to be particularly compatible with our own.
In the main, we are too polite to say so because we don't wish individual immigrants any ill will.
We would like them to be happy and prosperous but not living here - at least, not in such multitudes.
I say this because I think it is a mistake to believe that BNP voters do not agree with their "racist" policies. I, personally, would never vote BNP because I am afraid I might not like their methods and am squeamish about being beastly to people (and because their other policies are left-wing rubbish).
However, if I could press a button that would painlessly reverse some of the influx of Commonwealth immigrants into this country over the past 50 years, I would. I suspect some of the immigrants might press the same button as their experiences here have not been uniformly joyful.
The people to blame are the elite who encouraged and allowed that influx in the knowledge that it was opposed by the majority of the indigenous population (and then proceeded to label people who expressed opposition to mass immigration as racists).

DespairingLiberal said...

Aprolefrom - aren't there are also quite a few parts of London where asian and black faces get threatened? Thinking of parts of Essex as well!

Seriously though, do you have evidence of that or is it just rumour? If people have evidence, they should take it to the police. If the police refuse to act, then you have something to get to grips with.

We all hear a lot about these "no-go" stories, but there have been analyses of some of them in the papers and they turned out to be false.

Call Me Dave said...


Anonymous said...

Would Hopi Sen refuse to interview Gordon Brown? After his denial that he ever considered firing Darling it is clear that he is an inveterate liar.

Anonymous said...

Do you really want to debate the issues?
The BNP wants to leave the EU, as many British people do. We've just had a campaign for a European election where the main parties barely discussed it. The elite wish to stay in, so it is not discussed.
The BNP want to stop immigration. Big business wants immigrants in, to keep wages down. The elite don't want to discuss it.
The BNP don't want to get entangled in foreign wars...
The point you need to understand is that there is little difference between the main parties and they can't afford to discuss these issues, because they make a nice living out of them.
A lot of these issues will be forced into the public realm when the country goes bust later this year, when the supermarkets run out of food things are going to change. It isn't going to end well.

neil craig said...

The Labour, Conservative & Liberal democrat parties have all been involved in criminal wars & in Kosovo in masacres, racial genocide, ethnic cleansing, child sexual slavery & the dissection of 1,300 human beings while still alive. All in the racial cause of Adolf Hitler. All supported by the liars & censors of the BBC, ITN & press.

If Iain or anybody else has ANY evidence that anybody in the BNP has done anything 1/12,000 as racist as those MPs & journalists they should produce the evidence.

If not the BNP are owed a public apology. They also owe an apology to the relatives of the people they murdered.

Bardirect said...

There seems to be some support for our world famous BNP from a surprising quarter

wv:hambsu (not very kosher)

AProlefrom1984 said...

@anon 12:58 pm - I spent my childhood in Great Horton & was born in Manningham Lane. White people who attempt to walk down that road now are beaten up. Ditto some parts of Shipley. There are streets in West London where white people have been attacked and told not to walk down a muslim area. So, it's happening. Unless these issues are addressed people would vote BNP in frustration. Some black people in Bradford had to speak to a BNP councillor to help them as Labour's pakistani councillors won't. So far, BNP hasn't scored as highly as they could as their leadership hasn't been too articulate. Their MEP for Yorkshire could change that - unless politicians and their mates in the lobby system of journalism stop talking to each and start talking to ordinary people.

CryBaby said...

I just heard the interview and what is saying is that ethnics get preferential treatment from Labour so they don't need to focus on that. Isn't that true anyway?

Graham said...

If the political parties really want to defeat the BNP they should stop banging on about their racist agenda and find out why it is that non-racists ordinary people end up voting for them. Clearly there's a gap in the policies of the main parties.

Anonymous said...

"If I want to understand Nick Griffin or Simon Darby, I can read Mein Kampf."

Much quicker to read Bernard Shaw's introduction to his own play 'On The Rocks'. Much the same worldview as that of the Austrian socialist and with Dubliner wit thrown in!

Philip Jackson

Anonymous said...

People vote BNP because they are the only party who gives them a voice against mass uncontrolled immigration. If you are working class, this immigration ensures your chances of a job are greatly reduced. If you do find work, this mass immigration only ensures your remuneration level is nailed to the floor. More immigration = more nails. This is one of the main reasons the working classes are voting for BNP.

T England said...

"You seemed to care earlier on T England - "i've had to suffer the lefts agenda for nearly twelve years" - could it be that you were conned? I am curious - do you feel conned2?

DespairingLiberal, I know your postings, you're not silly so you must be on a wind up right?

Anyhow! Just to add!
I'm enjoying myself much too much to feel conned ;o)
Have a nice one!

TryingToGiveATossAboutEurope said...

I found myself agreeing with virtually everything Nick Griffen said during one of his interviews yesterday. Fortunately I know that, contrary to what they would have you believe, they are racist - not to mention a bunch of murderers, rapists and child molesters if you believe all that is printed about them. Fortunately they only got two seats and only in Europe so it hardly matters. Does it?

Anonymous said...

Sick of hearing about the bnp. They are unlikely to get vary far.

Also totally sick of way the liblabcon party ie the British political class make every effort to exclude competition ie the bnp.

What is truely revealing and disgusting is the manner in which these pampered sleazy scumbags get ratty when their longstanding monopoly of the parliamentary system is only mildly threatened.
Another example of arrogant entitlement.

The bnp are no threat really. If they win a few more seats( just a few more) I would not care. what incenses me is the twisted "parliamentary" system of whips, public funding for political pareties,complicit media,uneven constituencies , the whole lot.

Bart said...

Iain, in your blog you wrote:

In the Griffin interview I got him to admit that he would not represent black or Asian constituents. His logic was that the other parties would do that, so why should he?

Now that you have posted the interview itself we can hear (at 1:53) that the exchange went like this:

Dale If you become an MEP tonight will you be representing all of your constituents in the North-west or just certain groups of them?

Griffin I’ll be representing everybody. I’ll point out that this party does not stand for repatriation of people who are here legitimately, so if anyone from any ethnic minority comes to me for help then they will get it, but overall most of them I would expect to go to the Labour party or LibDems, because they’re the parties which specialise in helping ethnic groups over and above our people.

What you wrote in your blog strikes me as a dishonest misrepresentation of Griffin's answer. Will you acknowledge that?

Anonymous said...

Iain, you told a blatant lie when you claimed that you "got [Griffin] to admit that he would not represent black or Asian constituents."

Absolutely pathetic.

Iain Dale said...

You clearly didn't listen to the interview. You just switched off after the first bit no doubt. Nothing more than I would expect from an anonymous troll.

robonly said...

Shame you can't remove the "Anonymous" option, then everyone would have to identify themselves...

Anonymous said...

He didn't say that he wouldn't represent them, Iain. He said that other parties were there for such people i.e. a clear implication that non-white people wouldn't go to the BNP for help in the first place.

Iain, did he or did he not explicitly state that he would not represent black or Asian constituents?

If you got out and talked to people in towns like Bradford and Barnsley then you would realise that there is a major problem out there. But instead, you close your eyes, ignore the problem and assume that the middle-class, successful immigrants which you talk to in your little hack bubble are representative of all immigrants in this country.

Means Test ACA said...

I'm really scared about the level of paranoid mindset that says "in 40 years time, we'll be under sharia law." It's the same kind of people who reckon that homosexuality will soon be compulsory.

The census reckons that there are600,000 practicing muslims in the UK (most of whom just want to quietly observe their own religion) - that's 1% of the population. That's - for example - two thirds of the amount of people who voted for the BNP in the Euro elections, and I know which one I'm more scared of.

neil craig said...

The fact remains that no member of the BNP is 1/12,000th as racist as Cameron, Brown, Clegg or any of the other genocidal murderers in their parties who support Hitler's policies or as ANY MSM journalist. That, as anybody here can see, is simply the undisputable truth.

Iain Dale's ravaged anus said...


if you have such a problem with 'anonymous trolls' then why don't you disable the anonymous identity facility on your blog?

And yes, Griffin didn't admit that he wouldn't represent some of his constituencies - to claim otherwise is a pathetic untruth.

Anonymous said...

Hmmm Hopi Sen suggests that Griffin is a pathalogical liar so there so no point in talking to him. Let's see shall we:

Oops - Dale 0. Sen 1

Bart said...

Iain, It's true that interview does also contain this passage (starting at 05:25):

Dale What about areas like Burnley which have a significant Muslim population? How can you represent people that you think actually shouldn’t be in the country?

GriffinWe don’t need to. The Labour party and LibDems are there for them and they represent them very well. They give them vast amounts of majority taxpayers’ money in their own areas. So really we’re there primarily to get fair treatment so the majority who pay the majority of the texes get the majority of the benefits. Everyone’s part of the overall population, and it’s wrong that the ethnic minorities should be favoured.

I still don't think your blog comment was fair.

Anonymous said...

" robonly said...

Shame you can't remove the "Anonymous" option, then everyone would have to identify themselves..."

And why would that be then ? So you could 'monitor' them and 're-educate' them - all for their own good of course.

Spoken like a true liberal fascist.

AProlefrom1984 said...

@Despairing Liberal: search for 'Vicarage Farm Road' and Kashmiri in Manningham & Leytonstone being called a Muslim area by someone shouting at John Reid while Home Secretary.
Also ask the Met why the provide police escorts for people celebrating Eid and block local roads.
Meanwhile at Christmas & Easter, you don't see a single film on the festivals on TV. Non Christian neighbours have asked me what the festivals signify as there's no info telling people about the birth of Jesus/crucifixion. A friend said she'll vote BNP because one of them came to her street and talked about defending Christian values. I was so shocked and showed her their website and she said she'd never vote for them in a million years. She honestly didn't know of their racist values. But where the main parties treat British values and Christian heritage with contempt, people would be tempted to vote Nazi.
p.s. once heard Griffin on Radio 5L say he'll represent everyone who voted for him. It's unfortunate the media always feel the need to lie about everyone they don't agree with.

AProlefrom1984 said...

If you want parties like the BNP to disappear, remove all red herrings from political debate, ie, racist, homophobe, anti-semite, Islamophobe, and the all encompassing phrase 'controversial'. Then all discussions can be held within the mainstream of political discourse.

DespairingLiberal said...

A Prole - can I suggest you watch BBC4 next Christmas - an excellent diet of christian and non-christian festival broadcasting.

That aside, the choice of programmes in the media in the UK is not up to government, at least, not directly.

I also wonder about the attitude of white people walking through neighbourhoods. I've walked through many exceptionally "ethnic" parts of Leicester, Birmingham, Manchester and London and never once experienced so much as a nasty look. Perhaps becuase I wasn't looking for a fight?

Martin said...

Seems to me that most people posting on this blog can understand WHY the BNP are getting traction in white working class areas. Shame Iain and the other wet liberals in politics can't.

Be warned Iain, now the BNP have a foothold they will continue to get more popular.

It's not good Cameron and co saying they are "sickened" what they need to do is to diffuse the reason why the BNP is so popular.

For example, Cameron should clearly state he is opposed to Turkey joining the EU and if they do that severe immigration controls will be placed on people coming here for say 5 years. No doubt the French and Germans will already have such laws in place.

Anonymous said...

One, but not the only reason, people feel able to vote BNP is that they only have to vote for a Party in Euro elections and not an individual. This makes it easier to kid themselves that "the BNP has changed" while its pretty obvious its members haven't. Would voters in Yorkshire have felt quite as comfortable if they had had to vote for an individual in Andrew Brons who, as reported by you in your excellent radio programme last night, was a youth member of National Socialist Movement and a former leader of the National Front? The Party List (even the name has a totalitarian ring about it) has a lot to answer for.

current option said...

Can we please stop pretending that people who vote BNP aren't racist?

If you vote for a fascist white supremacist party and by doing so guarantee them £2 million of public money over five years you are endorsing racism. That makes you a racist.

bill ward said...

June 08, 2009 5:08 PM

well there you go folks despairingliberal has never had any trouble walking thru exceptionally ethnic areas whatsoever so it must be true, and anyone that has is obviously a knuckle dragging rascist and was asking for it,thanks for that... really.

S. Weasel said...

How many esteemed members of Labour were members of the Socialist -- or even Communist -- Party as teenagers? At the height of the Cold War, no less. I don't see a lot of reportage on the teen politics of the Left.

Again, not to stick up for the BNP -- and certainly not the National Front. But the 'mainstream' is mighty selective about its outrage.

S. Weasel said...

Of course they are, current option. That's the problem. Thanks to the grievous abuse of the charge of racism, clearly a sizable number of people no longer regard being tagged a racist the Worstest Thing EVARRR.

In Contempt of Parliament said...

When politicians stir up fear of something, it is usually so they can sneak through something that gives them more power.

It's well known that the major parties are worried about losing their lock on the voters. The idea of large numbers of minor parties and independents getting in fills them with dread. Fortunate then, isn't it, that the BNP are such a party? "If you stop voting for us, the Nazis will take over the country!" A brilliant move.

Unfortunately, there's one lot of voters who regard the behaviour of the major parties as even worse than racism (you guys really don't get just how angry people are, do you?), and there's evidently another bunch living in communities with major integration problems, and such is the middle-class terror of being perceived as a racist or anti-islamic, mainstream politicians refuse absolutely to even discuss it or to admit there is a serious problem, let alone actually do anything to address it.

There are quite a few who think the current crop of thousands of illiberal laws and regulations controlling our lives is more than a little akin to totalitarianism, already. The Tories in their efforts to appear bland show no particular sign of planning to reverse that. We've already had nice people like Gerry Adams and George Galloway as MPs and survived. So why not vote BNP?

Yes, we all know they're racist. We're not fooled. But currently, being a mainstream politician is seen as worse. Set your own house in order, and forget about the mote in Nick Griffin's eye.

Anonymous said...

Sorry, Iain. You are too southern and middle class. I'm not a BNP supporter, but most of the people who vote for them know just what they're voting for. I live in the North of England, and have spent all my working life in Northern industrial towns and cities, dealing with the very people who voted BNP. They believe they had good reason for doing so, and as I say most of them knew just what they were doing. The sooner the major parties grasp this, the sooner they will be able to deal with the appeal of the BNP.

DespairingLiberal said...

S Weasel, have you by any chance noticed that the BNP people were extreme in their youth and still are? Or do you think in some strange delusional way that the BNP are moderates?

This is obviously a gathering place for racists and headbangers, but you are in the wrong place - Iain doesn't share _any_ of your views - so you are basically wasting your time. Try a BNP blog?

S. Weasel said...

It's bad form, Despairing, to shoo someone off someone else's blog. With childish namecalling or without.

bill ward said...

This is obviously a gathering place for racists and headbangers,
June 08, 2009 5:49 PM

People who dont like black people and listen to motorhead you mean ?

neil craig said...

Current opinion can we please stop pretending that the other main parties aren't not only more racist but mush more openly Nazi than the BNP. Their disapproval is nothing to do with the BNP racism & entirely about the BNP refusing to be part of the political/media class.

Cinnamon said...

Iain, can you please post explicitly where Mr. Griffin "admits that he would not represent black or Asian constituents."?

Because this is not what I am hearing, an I think you could and should do better than spin like this.

And if you want to catch Mr. Griffin out, making sure that he'll not give you another interview because you're trying to score petty points with deliberate misinterpretation is not a winning technique either -- and I was looking rather forward to hearing at least one more serious radio duel which I'd think you'd would have easily gotten, had you acted in good faith and with style.

:( Meh :(

(and if you want to cuss at me too for 'trolling', feel free, I'm just a piece of aromatic tree bark, woof)

Terry said...

As has already been said on this page, the mainstream parties are out of touch with what British voters want from a politcal party.

For instance, what happened to British jobs for British workers?

It's all very well for David Miliband to describe yesterday as a "dark day for British politics" but wasn't it just a case of democracy in action?

Surely the day that Gordon Brown became Prime Minister was a far darker day.

DaveA said...

Bill Ward:

When you insult mine and other people's intelligence and attitudes in such a crass and off hand way, you can only expect more BNP support. I voted UKIP and it did not cross my mind to vote BNP at all.

I have deliberately not been critical of immigrants, especially Muslim ones and just tried to debate the matter in hand. However if you want the gory details you are welcome. On Christmas Eve 2003 in Bethnal Green I was violently set upon by 6 Bangladeshi youths on a mainroad, for no other reason than I was in the wrong place at the wrong time and probably white. You are welcome to contact Bishopsgate Police Station with my written permission to confirm.

I will also confrim that it did not cross my mind to vote BNP, but your crass post reminded me of it.

So if you want to have a reasoned debate might I suggest more temperate language.

Dave W said...

Iain -

Perhaps you can tell us why the Association of Black Police Officers, The Muslim Lawyers Association and the Music of Black Origin Awards, are not racist ?

None of these organisationas allow whites or will represent whites.

How is this NOT racist ?

I listened to your interview with Nick Griffin, and I can tell you that I am in no way a BNP supporter, (my Jewish wife will back me up on that) however, I did find that screaming racist as soon as he tried to get a point over is counter productive. I actually came away thinking, you know, maybe he has a point about some things.

You need to raise your game and challenge and engage and chaññenge with reasoned political debate.

And don't misrepresent your facts, you could and should do better.

Anonymous said...

From the holy Quran Nick Griffin is clearly concerned about women's rights in the future Islamic Britain

Women have rights that are similar to men, but men are “a degree above them.” 2:228

A woman is worth one-half a man. 2:282

Men are in charge of women, because Allah made men to be better than women. Refuse to have sex with women from whom you fear rebellion, and scourge them. 4:34

Women are feeble and are unable to devise a plan. 4:98

I better give a name of else I'll be accused of being a silly BNP scumbag troll said...

Iain, did Griffin
a)explicitly or
b) implicitly state that he would not represent black or Asian constituents?

Anonymous said...

DespairingLiberal @5.08 said:
"I also wonder about the attitude of white people walking through neighbourhoods. I've walked through many xceptionally "ethnic" parts of Leicester, Birmingham, Manchester and London and never once experienced so much as a nasty look. Perhaps becuase I wasn't looking for a fight"

what a patronising comment - are some of your best friends black too?

perhaps that's because the waiters at the restaurant you were eating at knew you would pay. Are some of your best friends black too?

When I walk in areas near me in London I always notice young men spitting on the pavement just in front of me - that's because I'm looking down, trying to avoid confrontation.

Anonymous said...

Means Test ACA said...

"The census reckons that there are600,000 practicing muslims in the UK (most of whom just want to quietly observe their own religion) - that's 1% of the population"

Do you really believe that number you quoted? Which Census are you referring to? 1971?

You are so out of touch you must be working for one of the mainstream parties. - I voted BNP precisely to make someone like you stop quoting such platitudes, pull your head out of your arse AND HAVE A LOOK AROUND. 600,000 - I'd laugh if I didn't think you were trying to be serious.

Try going to your local mosque for main prayers (almost impossible as a women) and then announce you're gay. Then go to your local BNP meeting and announce the same. I know the BNP won't throw you off the mountain top.

Tone Made Me Do It - He's a Bad Influence said...

The BNP are not "reprehensible", they believe that politics should be about the long term.

This liberal social order we have in Great Britain is not a historical norm it is rather a spark in the pan, built by giants over generations. If you dilute it - and 1m immigrants/year is diluting it very quickly - IT WILL NOT STAND, and gays and women and secular thought WILL be plunged into the abyss of a new dark age.

All the liberals posting here should ask themselves this question, late at night: "are you standing on the shoulders of giants?" liberalism is not and never was achieved just by being nice to everybody. Standing up for yourself is never "reprehensible".

The BNP are not "reprehensible" they are extremely brave. Why run the risks and the extreme odium that they run as individuals if they do not believe what they are doing is for the best?

Are they "reprehensible" because they are advocating violence? NO, because they do not advocate violence. Yet Sinn Fein did just that for years, and the MSM and the main political parties now bow down at their feet anytime they go into the studios. No odium for them.

The BNP is not "reprehensible", it is the mainstream parties that are reprehensible for selling two thousand years of our history down the river in exchange for hoping they will pick up a few floating voters in the immigrant community.

To quote Churchill once more: "Last night for the first time in years I slept the sleep of the thankful and the saved"

bill ward said...

dave A said
When you insult mine and other people's intelligence and attitudes in such a crass and off hand way,

i think you may have the wrong end of the stick,i was relpying to this post by despairing liberal.

I also wonder about the attitude of white people walking through neighbourhoods. I've walked through many exceptionally "ethnic" parts of Leicester, Birmingham, Manchester and London and never once experienced so much as a nasty look. Perhaps becuase I wasn't looking for a fight?

then my little post in reply to him.

well there you go folks despairingliberal has never had any trouble walking thru exceptionally ethnic areas whatsoever so it must be true, and anyone that has is obviously a knuckle dragging rascist and was asking for it,thanks for that... really.

Anonymous said...

The holy Quran is the inviolable word of Allah (saw) all Muslims believe it literally.

Nick Griffin is the only British politician who will discuss this sort of intolerant bile until the MSM and political class discuss the truth of this intolerant political ideology masquerading as a religion some prefer him to this

The Qur'an:

Qur'an (7:80-84) - "...For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.... And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone)"

you are condemned to been thrown down a mountain to your death because of gender preferences.By comparison to thid Griffin is a liberal!

Anonymous said...

Means Test ACA said...
"The census reckons that there are 600,000 practicing muslims in the UK.
June 08, 2009 4:04 PM"

Me said...

Watching last night's BBC elections programme made me feel more pro BNP than I have ever done before (and I didn't vote for them, I voted for UKIP). The treatment of their winning candidates by David Dimbleby (who appeared to be half asleep and oh so weary and depressed all night) and Nick Robinson was unbelievable. As soon as Brons won they were dredging up things from his past in a manner that they would not do if he belonged to any other party. If it had been a Sinn Fein candidate would they have brought up that they probably used to blow innocent people up for a living?
The programme summed up the utterly ignorant attitude of the white middle class media who tut tut about the BNP and yet don't have a bloody clue what it's like to live in an area that has been colonised by third world immigrants. They live in their ivory towers largely unaffected by the day to day social problems that the rest of us have to face because of the abject failure of mainstream politicians over the last 60 years.

Bri said...

All I've heard today from politicians of the 3 main parties is that people are protest voting because of the expenses scandal and the message they are getting is the public want the government to address the issues of saving peoples jobs/sorting out the economy.
They just don't get it do they.
People are protest voting because:-
1 - No referendum on the Lisbon Treaty
2 - Uncontrolled immigration.

People are fed up to the back teeth of being taken for mugs,they all can see Labour MPs won't challenge Brown for two reasons, there is no one of sufficient stature (which isn't saying much as Brown is a loser) and secondly there is a full year of salary & expenses to go,plus a nice pay off/pension after any general election.

Anonymous said...

DespairingLiberal @5.08 said:
"I also wonder about the attitude of white people walking through neighbourhoods. I've walked through many xceptionally "ethnic" parts of Leicester, Birmingham, Manchester and London and never once experienced so much as a nasty look. Perhaps becuase I wasn't looking for a fight"

1. My husband and I went to London a few weekends ago, we are middle aged, middle class. Whilst, consulting an underground map my husband was kicked by one of a passing group of black girls. He knows a kick to an accident !!!

2. A friend and I were walking across Foster Square in Bradford, coming the other way were three Muslim women in full cover up, with face mask, talking - as they passed us the stopped talking and 'strutted' passed. I think we understand the body language of agression, even if it is under wraps.

You may not be looking for a fight my friend, but believe me it will find you sooner or later, just like it is finding so many othes of us !!!

molesworth 1 said...

Some of my very first tweets & twitpics registered my disgust when the BNP turned up in Carlisle with a significant campaigning presence on the very day that the WildcatStrikes/BJ4 BW nexus broke in the media.
I went on-line, got myself up to date & realised that Griffin's candidacy in the region made them a significant threat. So I investigated the previous results, found this years candidate list & looked at the voting system.
I also looked at some BNP websites, Strike-supporting sites & some links off them, & from the message-boards & forums. Guess where I ended up... quite! In some unutterably odious places. Purely for research, you unnerstan'...
Sat back, watched them grow, watched the Govt. do things that REALLY don't help & the main 3 parties not doing much more than say "Please don't vote for the BNP, they really are quite a shower. Thanks awfully." Well done, chaps.
Nick Griffin BNP MEP now purports, in some small fraction to democratically represent me. No he does not. He may well take his seat at the European Parliament, but not in my f***ing name he won't.
The only time the BNP came anywhere near close to being debated on the MSM was when Farage was presented with a question that was some form of "how come you're not just BNP-lite,Mr.Farage?" Other than that? Jack-shit.
Farage would then usualy get jibed over UKIP MEP expenses & at least once said that he took all the money he could, quite transparently, & ploughed it back into UK campaigning. Didn't do them any harm, did it. And exactly the same mechanism is now open to the BNP, twice over.
Now, I haven't investigated the numbers in Yorks & Humber, but from the NW region, it seems Griffin won his seat without increasing his share of the vote but by the collapse in Labour's vote & supressed/depressed turn-out, encouraged by the expenses media-tsunami & Govt. division. Once again to all those Members currently navel-gazing in Whitehall & Westminster;f***ing blinder, lads.
On the wider news-front, Guido's earlier exclusive of Purnell strapping on a pair & 'doo-oo-oo-ooing it!' has latterly been redacted, up-dated, shot-down & squished in a variety of ways, hoping finally to put this leadership nonsense to bed. Yeah, right. See Tom Harris on Newsnight.
So we're stuck with this shower of s**ts until next May, so we're told; place your bets. If you dare.
A week being a long time etc., what can we hope for the next 47?

Victor, NW Kent said...

"The census reckons that there are 600,000 practicing muslims in the UK (most of whom just want to quietly observe their own religion) - that's 1% of the population".

That is totally incorrect. The 2001 census states that 3.1% of the population are classified by the returns as Muslim. That would be about 1,9 million or more than 3 times the figure you quote.

Colin Brown said...

Be careful what you wish for.

Many (with the sworn allegence of a biased media) have pigeonholed the 'right' as always being 'wrong'.

I for one, truly welcome the end of a 'no-platform' stance against the BNP. We are quite capable of of fighting our own corner and welcome an oppurtunity to do so.

Put up your very best people. You'll need them.

Colin Brown.

happyuk07 said...

Wouldn't vote for them myself - but - you cannot smear a group/person as racist because you disagree with their stance on immigration. This has been my perception so far.

What if, and it's a big if, one or two of these BNP representatives turn out to be bloody good MPs - non-troughing, that look at the lives of their constituents, and actually live in their constituency?

If you want to see racism in action look no further than the National Black Police Association. These separatists have been appealing to other ethnics to stay away from the Met because they say is institutionally racist.

What if a number of racist louts in the force (and there undoubtedly are) were to form a White Police Accosiation? Where is the difference?

Colin Brown said...

Furthermore, I would suggest to any hosts taking up the BNP challenge for 'open' debate to reconsider trying to begin with, or end an interview with the theme 'Nazism'. We know precisely, how riddled (You) the Establishment are with proponents of Marxist ideology and we'll have no problem drawing public attention (educating them) to the fact that Stalin killed at least 20m people and that many of you deeply admire that period in history for the way the 'proletariat' were curtailed and controlled.

Obviously, all of this 'unpleasantness' can be avoid if (you), focus any debate between us on BNP policy which you'll claim is the opposite of progress.

It is your choice.

neil craig said...

Yes well Molesworth - Labour, Conservatives & LibDems don't rape children, support Nazism, commit war crimes & genocide & dissect living people in my name. I assume you have NEVER registerd the slightest objection to them doing so in yours.

Most of the BNP votes came from Labour supporters - that is a move against Nazism & thus only Nazis object to it.

Anonymous said...

Churchill warned his cabinet in 1953 that there was a danger of England becoming "parti-coloured", and lamented that none of them would take the threat seriously.

That was just five years after the first boats arrived from the Caribbean.

In the Fifties and Sixties the British were endlessly reassured by the political class that the immigrants were only here to cure a temporary labour shortage. They would go home bearing the bounty of their stay after a short while, so they could help build up native countries moving towards independence. They were guests, not settlers.

As it turned out, the evil racist land of Britain proved more and more attractive to more and more incomers, whether they played the victim card to get themselves extra benefits or not.

Not once did this rapid transformation of large parts of a country which had been monoracially white European since time out of mind ever become a party controversy. When the most brilliant Tory of his time tried to raise it, he was at once cast into the outer darkness.

The more obvious the social problems arising from the importing and implanting of these aliens became, the more verboten it was to talk about it in polite political society. The whites, once they'd had enough of vibrant colourful diversity at first hand, moved away from it and kept schtum-- for fear they would be banished from their jobs or crippled in their lives as citizens by having rhe scarlet letter R affixed to their brows.

However, the time is fast running out for silence and hypocrisy. And demography makes it plain that the distemper can only worsen. Already some of the immigrant communities have become virtual autonomous enclaves, breeding dissent and hatred of the indigenes. Others where there is no systematic hostility are nonetheless menaces to civil peace and social cohesion through the innate incapacity of their members to contribute usefully to a modern, white-created civilisation, or to live their own lives continently.

It is clear, though, that Iain Dale enjoys life in the village too much to risk ostracism by being honest about the colouring of the UK. He doesn't even dare to allow dissenters too much rope in his columns, lest the Thought Police tar him by association.

Like so many soi-disant Conservatives, and unlike Churchill who was only uncertainly one, Dale is really a pale shade of pink when it comes to the gravest threat facing the survival of our people and nation.

He probably thinks, against the weight of historical evidence, that the blacks and browns can be talked into good little simulacra of Britons and all will be well. Or that the settling of accounts can be delayed until after his time.

T England said...

Me said..........

What me said is spot on, one of the best posts on here, well said :o)

This is the best bit

The programme summed up the utterly ignorant attitude of the white middle class media who tut tut about the BNP .........

I am getting so fed up with their arrogant, delusional attitude, I think lower class worms are starting to turn against their perthetic thinking.

Anonymous said...

The three main parties will find it hard to debate with the bnp and it has nothing to do with superior oratory skills.Take three subjects, law and order, population change and Europe. If you look back at the post war period, these subjects have involved limited input from the populace and have continually gone against the wishes of the majority. These issues have not just been dealt with undemorcraticly, they have been foistered on the public. How can the three main parties debate there actions on these subjects, they're are not representive of the people nor have they come via the public.
For those of you who think that the election of the bnp was a bad day for democracy, you should query what our elected politicians have done over time and why the public has allowed it go this far.
I hope that referendums are held on these subjects but, more importntly, a constitution for our country finally comes into law.This would put limits on what are elected politicians can do.
Please read Iain's blog on Phil Goodman, it gives an insight on the change that has occured in our parlimant.

AProlefrom1984 said...

How sad to see 'Unite Against Fascism' act like a hired mob of New Labour. Griffin and his 'if it aint white, it aint right' brigade are odious. But what happens when this hired mob think that say, a Tory politician should be hounded for saying something they disapprove of? It's frightening to see BNP elected, but much more frightening to see a New Labour funded and sponsored mob stifling political debate. If no one can actually debate the BNP, then you can't blame those who vote for them.

Anonymous said...

Very questionable speech by Shahid Malik

I just wonder if any other sitting UK MP, let alone a Justice Minister exposed in extreme troughing, spoke at a major European religious conference advocating any religion or ethnic denomination within politics in this way.

Religion has little place in politics. Political ideology, masquerading as Religion, is very dangerous.

Can you imagine a Jewish conference led by; say Brothers Miliband, Gerald Kaufman, or Ollie Letwin, and Margaret Hodge advocating the same. Can you imagine the outrage? In this context, Islam, unlike Judaism, is serious political ideology.

The sooner UK democracy manages this, the sooner the likes of BNP crawl back to where it truly belongs.

Anonymous said...

The Labour-hired Rent-a-mob on the Green today was about one thing:

The modern Labour party is a grand coalition between its white working class roots of which 66% vote Labour and the Immigrant communities that vote 100% labour.

These two groups always were strange bed-fellows in that they compete against each other to reduce the wage level.

The BNP threatens to split this coalition in half, rendering the Labour party unelectable for the rest of time.

This is why Labour's attack dogs are out en-mass, attempting to make Mr Griffin look beyond the fringe. It is an all-out gamble, that probably won't work.

As such Mr Griffin should be wearing a Kevlar vest, and beware of "animal rights protesters" bearing knives.

archduke said...

"June 08, 2009 1:00 PM"

i despair at comments by DespairingLiberal stating that Nazism has nothing to do with socialism.

The full name of the Nazi Party is the Nationalist Socialist German Workers Party

obviously a very conservative name.. not!

DespairingLiberal really needs to read up on history a bit more - Nazism is a collectivist ideology , and one of its primary enemies , along with Communism was American "Gangster" Capitalism.

Free market capitalism - controlled by the "Jews" in a worldwide conspiracy against the "Volk".. THAT is Nazi ideology.

""As things stand today, the trade unions in my opinion cannot be dispensed with. On the contrary, they are among the most important institutions of the nation's economic life. Their significance lies not only in the social and political field, but even more in the general field of national politics. A people whose broad masses, through a sound trade-union movement, obtain the satisfaction of their living requirements and at the same time an education, will be tremendously strengthened in its power of resistance in the struggle for existence".

Adolf Hitler - chapter 12 of Mein Kampf.

do read more here:
Hitler was a socialist

But more importantly , if you really want to read IN DEPTH about the Nazis , i would suggest that you read the book "The Coming of the Third Reich" by Richard J. Evans , or "The Third Reich" by Michael Burleigh. And if you really want to get under the skin of life under Nazi rule, try "Hitler's Willing Executioners" by Daniel Jonah Goldhagen.

Read all three books, and THEN dare come back to us with nonsense about Hitler not being left wing.

T England said...

I'd like to see a list of who actually donates to this rent a mob!
My blood is boiling to think the main parties are donating to these fascist bully boys.

neil craig said...

The Unite Against fascism simply show who the real fascists are. I would like to be able to trust the police will arrest them & their organisers, unfortunately I find it easier to believe the BBC will have them on, as they do with Plane Stupid's upper class eco-fascist vandals, to say how wonderful they are.

I hope no Conservative politician will go into court to say how they should be allowed to do this as Zac Goldsmith did for the Kingsnorth vandals but we seem to be picking & choosing who the law protects.

T England said...

That should have been lefty facist bully boys

archduke said...

As such Mr Griffin should be wearing a Kevlar vest, and beware of "animal rights protesters" bearing knives.

June 09, 2009 5:45 PM

i suspect that he doesnt wear one - knowing full well that his "movement" will get one hell of a boost should he be "martyred"

its not far fetched - the Nazi Party made enormous propaganda out of the Munich putsch "martyrs"

"The swastika flag which they carried,, which in the course of events was stained with the blood, came to be known as the the Blutfahne (blood flag), was bought out for the swearing in of new recruits in front of the Feldherrnhalle when Hitler was in power. "

"Every year (even during the war up to 1942) a commeration, attended by Hitler, took place in Munich, the centrepiece of which was usually a recreation of the march, from the Burgerbraukeller to the south side of the Feldherrnhalle but also throughout every Gau was expected to hold a small remembrance ceremony. As material given to propagandists said, the sixteen fallen were the first losses and the ceremony was an occasion to commemorate everyone who had died for the movement."


archduke said...

VotR said...
The BNP may be far left socialists in speech and presentation, as the Nazi's were before they manipulated the democratic process. But like the Nazi's, it's only a matter of time before they will become far right in their actions, if granted a power base. Which they now have. A larger powerbase than the UK. How long before the first detention centre becomes a persuasive resettlement camp, and then a concentration camp? The cheque's in the post. June 08, 2009 1:04 PM

yet another deluded soul who has bought the propaganda of the left - concentration camps = "far right"

Hello Stalin Gulags?

Pol Pot genocide?

Chairman Mao Cultural Revolution?
Che Guevara executing people?

And right now - today - the biggest concentration camps in history exist - in North Korea.

neil craig said...

Archduke I doubt if Griffin is quite so noble as to WISH to be murdered for the cause but he must have thought of it. Look at Pym Fortune & that van Gogh guy. Being an anti-EU "right winger" is dangerous.

Of course being a former & unrepentent Nazi publicly denying engaged in racial genocide & denying the holocaust is fine (though the denying bit is clearly less PC than the genocide) if you are on the bureaucrat's side. We'll help you in your atrocities as we did Tudjman, Izetbegovic & the KLA in Yugoslavia. No risk of their police escort being called away.

archduke said...

neil -> i think Mr Griffin is VERY aware and EXTREMELY dedicated to his cause.

lets face it - imagine the day to day threats on his life from the far-left (not to mention the Jihadists)

normal folks would break and give up in the face of such death threats.

its also generally recognised that most BNP voters wouldnt even dare say it to their neighbours/friends/family. imagine being the actuall friggin leader of that party.

one things for certain - Griffin has balls. maybe thats why white working class northerners voted for him. they can see that.

T England said...

I can't wait to see what Iain says about the rent a mob & Cameron surporting them!

Anonymous said...

Griffin's life IS in danger because not only does he have balls, he is able to come across well in the media.

This is something that is far more difficult than it looks (look at Mr Brown).

As such a Pym Fortune/Van Gogh style murder seems very likely. As the BNP could split the Labour party's support and make them permanently unelectable.
Look at the way the police were no where to be seen this afternoon.

The media are already changing the editing of this afternoon's events to make Griffin look the villain (ITN already have him accidentally pushing an "innocent bystander" over).

If he is murdered, 3/4 of the political/media complex will imply that the murder does not deserve investigation. Sending out the right message to all similar minded souls.

May the good Lord help us (and him).

AProlefrom1984 said...

This is why people are frightened into voting BNP.

AProlefrom1984 said...

And this is why voters are turning their back on the LibLabCon.

Anonymous said...

I find BNP odious but then I also find Muslim extremists raging feminists full of sh.. too but the MSM doesn't give them th same hard time it does the BNP and plays thereofre right in to their hands