Tuesday, July 08, 2008

An Institutionally Incompetent Police Force

A man goes into a police station and tells the receptionist: "I have just killed two people". He's told not to queue jump and wait his turn. That's what happened to the man who turned himself in yesterday for the killing of the two French students in New Cross. He then waited for several minutes in the reception area of the Police Station until someone would see him. At any time he could have changed his mind and walked out of the Police Station.

No doubt the policeman on reception was too busy filling in a diversity awareness form to be bothered by a self confessed murderer. Is it any wonder that people are increasingly wondering what the Police are there for? They refuse to investigate car crime, their attitude to house burglary is generally laughable but if you defend yourself against an attack it's you who is liable to be arrested.

Yes, cases of recorded crime are falling. I have no doubt at all that it is in large part due to the fact that people just don't bother to report many crimes any more. Too many people just don't see the point.

Last night on BBC South East News the lead story was of a group of people whose houses had been repeatedly burgled, yet the Police refused to even visit the crime scene initially. It was only when the media got involved that they did so - four days later. As the reporter said at the end of his report: "People are asking, if the Police won't investigate burglary, what is the point of them?" Indeed.

101 comments:

Alan Douglas said...

What are they for ? Easy - to invent and then levy imposts on normal people, and to enforce box-ticking requirements as commanded by their masters.

We are repeatedly told we should "not take the law into our own hands". What I want to know is, WHOSE hands is it then in - the criminals ?

Alan Douglas

tapestry said...

I have taken to letting out my property to Police Officers recently. I get no trouble from vandalism, and the neighbours are relaxed and happy and helpful.

There are some damned good Police Officers around - and an incredibly stupid government that they work for.

They didn't say that. I did. I offer lower than market rates of rent, pay less tax, and have peace of mind. Wonderful.

I can recommend the strategy to any landlord getting fed up with 'trouble'.

Curbishlyauto said...

I think you will find that those people who stand behind the desk are NOT police officers but civilians.

Despatch Box said...

I once followed a chap home who had held up a Marks and Spencers with a knife when he was told to pay for some wine he was taking out of the shop. He had no idea he was being followed by him. I entered his mansion block in Baker Street (London) with him (he thought I was a resident). Once I had identified his flat I called the police. They all arrived in riot gear and shields and were about to storm his flat when a call came in from the police station not to storm the flat due to health and safety reasons - the resaon being that he had a knife and it could injure someone.

Christopher said...

My wife was 'scammed'by a phishing attack.Whe she reported it to the police,we were told, 'we dont investigate these because there are so many of them'.
What do we pay them for?

Anonymous said...

Yes, cases of recorded crime are falling...

I went to a police station to report a crime. They told me you've got to prove to us that it's a crime and refused to record it. I had to write to them threatening them with the police complaints commission before they'd issue me with a crime number.

PC99 said...

"You want to confess to a murder, sonny ?

Can you just take a ticket and wait until your numbers called although you're 26th in the queue and we shut the desk at 4.30pm so it's unlikely you'll be seen to-day. Best come back tomorrow. We open at 10am although we may be short staffed then as we're having a blitz on schoolkids visiting McDonalds at break time so it may be Thursday before we can deal with you. Still - Mind how you go !"

Obnoxio The Clown said...

I frequently debate policing with policemen on another forum. Their heads are completely in the sand about this kind of thing. They keep on saying that they are too short of resources to visit every crime scene and that their time is better spent on more productive crime fighting.

They fail to see that even if they catch the criminal who burgled my house, it will be for something else and that I will never see justice served.

As far as I'm concerned, the police need scrapping along with the house of commons and the civil service -- we need to start all over again.

Blue Eyes said...

Iain, I like this blog a lot, but you rarely come up with any positive suggestions as to how things should be reformed. Now you have told us how useless you think the police are, would you like to tell us what you think the causes are and how you would change things to improve matters?

Inspector Knacker said...

Iain,
what's the source of the "wait your turn" story ?

Anonymous said...

Still at least the Dorset Police know how to deal with fare dodgers

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1032794/Pictured-The-terrifying-moment-armed-police-held-innocent-man-train-gun-head.html

Anonymous said...

"Too many people just don't see the point."

But they do see that any victim going near the police will probably be arrested for something or other, the best result is to be ignored.

The police are a joke. An expensive one.

strapworld said...

Iain,

As a former Met Police Officer I, too, am quite concerned about the direction of the police nationwide.

However if I may just put a thought on the incident you relate - the man turning himself in . This is not unusual. Most police area's have mentally disturbed people who want to 'admit' to crimes they have heard about on the radio, televison or read in the newspapers! Believe me they are out there!

Perhaps there was someone being dealt with who had a very sensitive issue?

More to the point was it a police officer on the counter, or a civilian?

As for the housebreakings, sadly that is the case in most forces now. To the great annoyance of good people. This is a great mistake by the police and has done much to harm the relationship between police and public.

I blame the Home Office and their puppet chief officers. Chief Constables used to be people of real authority who ruled their forces. I once described them as latter day Barons! No longer the case.

The Home Office, under this Labour administration, have neutered Chief Officers have politicised them and made them all yes men and women to the call of the Home Secretary.

WHY..quite simply the EU. In the days I met with Home Secretaries (they changed them every year when Maggies was in charge!)they often told me that in Europe Police did what the Minister of the Interior told them to do, but in the UK Chief Officers could and would ignore Home Secretaries!

Those days have gone. Standards have fallen and the idea that the police are there for the public has fled as well. The police, sadly, are another tool of the politicians now.

Will the Tories change that? Somehow, when politicians have such power, I doubt it.

Twig said...

It's a deliberate strategy to allow crime and disorder to get to such a point that the general public will eagerly accept an authoritarian crackdown with ID cards, DNA databases, more surveillance etc etc.

Cinnamon said...

It's worse than that Iain -- people will have looked at what happened to Tony Martin and others and concluded that calling the police is always a bad idea.

My guess is that by now there are quite a few shallow graves out there with petty criminals who got caught, and who normally would have been picked up by the cops after the victim made the 999 call, were it not for 'practical' reasons.

I don't think this is a good situation at all, a police farce such as we are entertaining in this country invites vigilantism and self-administered justice.

curly15 said...

I can empathise, recently I went to my local "nick" to share some information about a local drug dealer and petty criminal, (I am also a Neighbourhood Watch co-ordinator) I was kept waiting for fifty minutes to talk to someone.

Yet every criminal answering to bail, or on their way to court was dealt with quickly and efficiently within a couple of minutes!!

Anonymous said...

And they have the cheek to appear on Crimewatch asking for help when they are never prepared to help the public. - Mind you now that Crimewatch has become a porno catalogue of graphic rape attaqcks I don't know how many people have still got the stomach for it.

Dave said...

We had huge problems with our neighbour in our block of flats. She was drunk and had mental issues and was deteriorating. Although she was clearly behind damage to cars, the fabric of the block and more it was hard to gather evidence.
But our local beat officer (who we still see out and about) went about gathering as much evidence as she could. Encouraging us to report everything and anything.
Even when this neighbour actually assaulted two police officers the courts didn't take a dim view of it.
Eventually this woman assaulted her mental health worker in front of the police and that was enough to get her sectioned and then bring her before the courts.
Were this a council block it would be easy to remove her, but as a private owner it's much harder.
This one woman was a mini crimewave but through courtesy with us and helping us through the legal process the problem was dealt with.
I have nothing but praise for our police force (in this case Birmingham) and have never felt safer.

Guthrum said...

A quick scan across the Telegraph today, Kebab shop owner on trial for chasing 'lads' who did a runner and did not pay and crashed their car, woman on trial for assault after challenging vandals at a war memorial ets etc etc etc etc etc etc

Anonymous said...

Pitching for the shilling of the Grumpy Old Man programme ? Joking apart, reading Neasden Police Station in the Eye is a satire fast being outstripped by reality..

And the admission by Jack Straw that all the tough talk on crime is just that - tough talk - since sentencing is decided by the Sentencing Guidelines Council, an independent body, shows we have lost all 'voter control' over that 'tough on the causes of crime..' rhetoric...

Anonymous said...

Cinnamon said...
"... people will have looked at what happened to Tony Martin and others and concluded that calling the police is always a bad idea."

But Tony Martin didn't call the police. Having killed one burglar and wounded another, he went and hid in his mother's house.

The wounded burglar called at a nearby house for help and they called the police.

Chris Paul said...

No-one enters or leaves the reception area of most modern police stations without being buzzed in or let out by the officers (mostly officers Curbishlyauto) on reception.

What is the arrangement at New Cross Iain? Who is your source?

And will you stop banging on about unaggravated burglaries when there are clearly more important and serious things to go at?

The Conservatives CUT policing numbers whereas Labour have increased these substantially. If the BCS (which includes unreported crime) and the police stats are showing a reducing trend in most areas and most crimes then there probably is a reducing trend.

Nick said...

It’s pathetic. We pay for a service that should investigate crimes and apprehend the perpetrators. We get a service that is all too eager to arrest people defending their lives, families and property even though the people concerned have no choice as the police won’t turn up when a crime is reported.

Targets have led to police to concentrate on soft targets – people defending themselves, motorists committing minor and victimless traffic offences, kids having an argument in the playground rather than hardened criminals because to seek out the latter is too difficult and won’t enable them to achieve their targets.

Since the police won’t uphold the law perhaps the people of the UK should retake the right to bear arms to defend themselves. At present we have the worst of all worlds – no police to protect us, but a criminal record if we seek to protect ourselves

Richard Nabavi said...

There was a very interesting letter in the Telegraph earlier this week, from a police officer. He was complaining that, when they investigate a burglary, if they notice that there is a 'child' in the house (anyone under eighteen), they automatically have to fill in an assessment form answering questions about the child.

In other words, being intrusive child-protection officers - even if there is absolutely nothing to raise concern - rather than investigating the burglary. It's no wonder that the victims of crime often get the impression that the police are not interested in the crime.

I don't think it is the fault of the police officers themselves; they are merely responding to the demands which this government makes.

So in response to 'blue eyes' @8.56am, how you would change things to improve matters?, one answer is: we'd start by making a lot of small improvements along the lines of removing idiotic targets and form-filling such as the above.

Jonathan Lehrle said...

As a former Met officer who left way back in '93 I can confirm that even in those days we had civilians on the front desk. In fact we had civilians in the CAD room (control room) often running the station with no more than a PC of 2yrs service 'in charge'.

Interesting that Iain uses the title he does for this story. You still think we have a police 'force'? Back in the early '90s (under a Tory Home Sec) apprval was given to rebrand as the 'Metropolitan Police Service' - says it all really.

Jilted John said...

there are many facets to this problem; not least the fact that the police seem to have become institutionally 'risk averse'. This is, of course, the newspeak term for it; there is an older, blunter one.

I'm sure there are some very brave police officers out there, but recorded incidents like the 10 year old boy who drowned because the police wouldn't go in the water (Wigan 2007) or two women dying of gunshot wounds because police wouldn't let paramedics into a crime scene (Thames Valley 2006) mean that people are starting to wonder what the point of normal police - let alone PCSOs - is.

Add to that the fact that they seem perfectly capable of hassling motorists (which makes money), arresting students for saying a horse looks gay (Oxford 2005) and shooting unarmed innocent Brazilians in the head...

he constant refrain from the Mail et al is 'more bobbies on the beat'. But why, if all they'll do is run away?

wrinkled weasel said...

Oh yes, oh yes. The loonies have taken over the asylum. Bristol Council's own gay rights group (no doubt funded by tax payers) have complained to the council for a programme of clearing bushes and undergrowth on the Downs because this will make it more difficult for gay cruisers to (illegally) engage in public acts of sex.

That's not the crazy part. Oh no. The crazy part is that the Council are actually "in negotiation" with gay groups and the police about this, and accordingly "We are working together with the Terence Higgins Trust to make sure any work we will do is sensitive" a council official said.

Well excuse me, but the Terence Higgins Trust is a charity, funded, as far as I know, to assist victims of Aids and create HIV awareness. What it is doing seeking to promote illegal activities on Bristol Downs I do not know, but I am sure that the Police will bend over backwards to assist.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/2263277/Plans-to-clear-undergrowth-from-gay-sex-spot-branded-discriminatory.html

Richard Dale said...

What does it matter whether it is a police officer or a civilian? Iain was complaining about "institutional incompetence", and the person on the desk was part of that institution. The fact that many trained police officers have been replaced by civilians might be part of the decline of the police.

However it is interesting to read what Strapworld says. Would explain a lot.

John M Ward said...

I would go along with Strapworld's comments, as these encapsulate much of what now happens in regards to policing in Britain today.

I recently looked at the possibility of applying to join the Kent Police Authority -- but information I received just after attending a session at the Bridgewood Manor Hotel put me off completely.

It will need a change of Government first, and a significant change of attitude thereafter, to even begin to reform our police in a way that is going to be of genuine vale and worth to society as a whole.

Yes, all this target-based, top-down rubbish will need to go -- as the first step of many. Politically-appointed senior police will also need to go, and community-driven (and accountable) police introduced. The concept of Sheriffs isn't a bad idea in this respect.

In parallel with .this will have to be a shake-up of the law in respect of have-a-go heroes and such garbage as "sniffer dogs in bootees".

Anyone in this country is subject to our laws -- the same for everyone, and the emphasis has to be on structuring our society and its legal system to avoid providing easy incentives for crime and criminals -- which is the current situation. Those who don't like it -- well, tough! They can also move to Cuba, Russia, the Middle East, or wherever they would feel happier. While they're living here, they should expect to live by the fundamental principles of our society -- as do all the decent people anyway.

So: decent laws, decent policing, sensible legislature, and you can get a broadly decent society, vastly better than what we have in Britain today. That;s it!

Anonymous said...

This is why decent taxpayers no longer support the poice and indeed actually fear them.

We need to scrap the prresent police system and go to a "locally paid for, locally controlled force2as exists in many parts of the U.S

Anonymous said...

Iain as a farmer's son I am sure will also have sympathy with people in rural areas who face an even worse plight due to lack of police support.

The sad case of the woman who died of a heart attack recenlty when her farm was hit by fuel thieves is a recent tradgedy. The village where my father lives has repeatedly been hit by a couple of thieves in a white van with a fuel tank and syphoning pump in the back.

A few years ago I heard about a gang of cattle thieves making off with herds of ttle worth many hundrds of thousands of pounds as well as farm equipment.

Quite a few farmers were hit and the police always turned up hours later even when farmers caught them in the act. One farmer I heard did take the law into his own hands and as it was the middle of the night took out his largest tractor with a forklift on the front drove down the fields with the lights off and inserted the fork lift under the cattle thieves truck and gently lifted them up in the air about 15 feet and then left them there until the police arrived in the morning.

The case of Tony Martin was a real tradgedy and while I do not condone shooting people at all I really do think the police failed utterly in that case by leaving him defenceless until he snapped. Of course, the police were not slow to arrest him - it was an easy cop of course and good for their clear up rate no doubt.

Anonymous said...

Jilted John said...
"I'm sure there are some very brave police officers out there, but recorded incidents like the 10 year old boy who drowned because the police wouldn't go in the water (Wigan 2007)"

The boy was already dead when the PCSOs arrived at the seen. He was under water in the large lake and there hadn't been any trace of him for more than 20 minutes.

Anonymous said...

They are there to fulfill their targets by arresting easy targets like litter droppers, amateur photographers and people walking on cycle paths.

If I see Plod coming I avoid them. Innocent isn't anywhere near good enough to avoid arrest these days.

And I do NOT want to be on the DNA database.

Anonymous said...

As a GP I frequently see people who have been assaulted when in passing contact with druggies/alcoholics/criminals, often quite severely, but did not report it.

The usual response is
" whats the point?"

Serf said...

Until the heads of the police forces are chosen by election, nothing will change.

Anonymous said...

Remember that 15 year old budding actor who was stabbed to death in Islington a couple of weeks ago.
At 2am, he was in a bar/club which was crowded with young people (no doubt many under-aged).
Meanwhile a large group of black youths had gathered outside.
Where were the police? Was there not a single policeman to observe the obvious tinder box?
We hear that today's forces are "intelligence-led".
So who's patrolling trouble spots to notice trouble brewing?

Penfold said...

Policing is by consent.
So is there an implied contract?, we allow you to police you provide us with a service against law-breakers.
If there is an implied contract/covenant, then clearly the Met and other forces are in breach and we should withdraw not only our consent but our monies.
Perhaps a period of Continental style disobedience and ignoring of the rules is called for. Surely they cannot bang us all up, with the prisons full of real crims, whilst we all recount Brecht's commentary that you cannot dissolve the people but can dissolve organisations.

smerus said...

'I think you will find that those people who stand behind the desk are NOT police officers but civilians' says Curbishley - so what? If the Police Force doesn't train or monitor its receptionists properly (as is clearly the case here), then it is clearly failing in its duty to offer the public a service in which it can be confident.
'Institutionally incompetent' indeed.

Old Holborn said...

Avoid the Police at all costs.

Burgled? Get your crime number and forget about it.

Mugged? Go home quietly

Beaten to a pulp by feral scrotes? Go home and nurse your wounds

I actually AVOID the Police like the plague. They have the power to take my DNA even if I am innocent of any crime. I won't go near them.

It can't be long before we face "road blocks" and "security checks" whereby a small donation to the pocket of the Plod will see us safely on our journey, a refusal will see our DNA added to the four million they have already "harvested".

Albert M. Bankment said...

The Police came to our village forum 10 days ago, to meet the people who pay their undeserved wages. Oh, I did enjoy myself:

"A month ago, Inspector, I watched a white van park on the pavement [illegal], and also cleverly obstructing a footpath [illegal], so that a mother with a push-chair had to walk around it in the traffic and an old lady couldn't get up to her husband's grave. I watched the driver methodically unwrap her lunch. She chewed slowly and thoughfully through her sandwich, enjoyed her apple and savoured her Twix, taking occasional chugs from her dinky little bottle of water. I noted the registration number and telephoned *** Police Station to report it.

"Pause for maximum dramatic effect ......

"It was a Police van, Inspector. She wasn't investigating a crime. She wasn't monitoring the traffic, let alone trying to catch the habitual speeders. She wasn't even being a friendly, PR-conscious village bobby and chatting to the passers-by. She was just sitting, sealed impenetrably in her van and uniform, eating her lunch. How can you expect us to take you seriously?"

I'm delighted to report that the village hall rocked with derisory laughter, and the Inspector very much wished that he were somewhere else.

So, never mind their apparent reluctance and/or inability to cope with serious crime. They can't [or won't] even do the simple, courteous, neighbourly, safe, uncontentious, reassuring, George Dixon, responsible, part-of-the-community stuff without alienating their employers. Just like so many of the politicians, they have forgotten that they are the servants of the people, not their masters.

Aristander of Telmissus said...

Wriknled Weasel @ 10.42

You are quite wrong, I'm afraid.

The Police will bend over FORWARDS to assist.

Desperate Dan said...

Jilted John says the police have become 'risk averse'. Quite true.
Yesterday Dave gave a speech that I took to mean euphemisms just cloud the issue so I don't think we should shy away from saying that the police are snivelling cowards. This might be one of the consequences of the lowering of height restrictions. Once upon a time you had to be over 6' to be a policeman. Now they're all short-arsed dwarves who have to run away from trouble cos they're not big enough to enforce law and order. The police force is more interested in enforcing equality for the vertically challenged than in keeping our streets safe.

Anonymous said...

albert m. bankment summarises this issue and the wider problems of this country in his final sentence:

" Just like so many of the politicians, they have forgotten that they are the servants of the people, not their masters. "

This situation, and the dire economic circumstances, are, historically, a pre-cursor for civil unrest ......

Old William said...

Brilliant expose of a massive problem, Iain. To be fair to the Old Bill, a few of them understand these problems and are trying to change things from within. A few of your fellow bloggers, for instance - PC Copperfield and Inspector Gadget - have been revealing this utter lunacy over a number of recent years. I urge anyone who wants to understand the frustration real bobbies on the ground feel for this NuLabour inspired, lawyer-led scandal to read Copperfield's book - 'Wasting Police Time'. I believ this aptly-named book got him fired from the force, which says it all!

Anonymous said...

And will you stop banging on about unaggravated burglaries when there are clearly more important and serious things to go at?

Indeed. Someone forcibly entering your home, trashing your house and stealing your stuff clearly isn't worth making a fuss of is it?

The authentic voice of NuLab compassion. Right there. "Just shut up about being burgled, it doesn't matter."

Albert M. Bankment said...

I do try to avoid afterthoughts, but there's one other trivial thing about the Police which really annoys.

When you do phone to report anything, they don't start by taking details of the offence, but:

"Could I start by taking your name? And your date of birth? And is there a contract address/telephone number, Albert?" [It's never Mr. Bankment, of course. Saying that would allow the false impression that they have the slightest respect for you as a human being. No, you are just some bloody nuisance on the phone, daring to interupt the doughnut-munching and the involved conversations about the verisimilitude of last night's episode of 'The Bill'.]

"And what was your maternal grandmother's nickname in primary school? How about your father's service number? Which way do you 'dress'? And now your passport number. Inside-leg measurement? Any communicable diseases in the last five years? Right, Albert, I'll pass your report through to the appropriate section, and they will get back to you next March with an incident number. Thank you for calling Toytown Police."

Blue Eyes said...

Still no word on what you would do to change things Iain. Here's a few suggestions that the Tories will never have the bottle to introduce:

Directly elected local Police Commissioners with the power to set their own investigation/prevent, recruitment and training priorities.

Directly elected prosecutors with the power to set their own prosecution priorities.

Directly elected judges with the power to sentence people to punishments which fit the crime in order to take dangerous people off the streets and set an example to would-be criminals.

Meanwhile all the Tories do is stamp their feet and wait for ther turn at the levers.

Desperate Dan said...

Certain crimes can now be reported online in the Met Police area. They are Criminal damage; Theft from a motor vehicle; Criminal damage to a motor vehicle; Hate crimes and hate incidents.
The first three have only been added very recently.

ratty said...

If you are wondering why the Tories have been out of power so long, look no further than this post. No suggestion of a solution just the same old negativity and complaints.

Is fear-mongering the only way you have to win power?

yarnesfromhorsham said...

But this is so Enlish "If your that keen to give youself up it wont hurt to wait your turn"
More seriously some travellers broke in to a local nature reserve and when the staff reported the incident to the Police the response was "well we did not see them break in" The same travellers also broke into a field by driving thro a hedge - creating and illegal access on the main road- and both Police and LA went into passive mode despite travellers using guns and various vehicles devoid of number plates.
Seems that the law is for the quiet majority - the soft targets. The people that pay their taxes and obsereve the law. Those that dont give a stuff are too difficult for the law and lawmakers to deal with.

Look behind you said...

Any law abiding citizen with an ounce of sense should steer well clear of the police nowadays. They are ineffective, bureaucracy driven, state-controlled wannabes with delusions of grandeur. Unfortunately they have power which makes them dangerous (unless you're a criminal). Until I see a real stand made by the so-called "damned good Police Officers" in an attempt to change the system that apparently holds them back, I'll tar them all with the same brush and that is one of incompetence, laziness and stupidity.

JuliaM said...

"A man goes into a police station and tells the receptionist: "I have just killed two people". He's told not to queue jump and wait his turn. That's what happened to the man who turned himself in yesterday for the killing of the two French students in New Cross. He then waited for several minutes in the reception area of the Police Station until someone would see him. At any time he could have changed his mind and walked out of the Police Station."

Oh, come on! I'm happy to dish out a blog kicking to the useless, lazy, incompetant, politically correct police 'service' individuals as much as anyone, where their guilt is proved, but I suspect that false confessions aren't exactly unknown.

Read a few police blogs to see just how many nutters and wastes of time they have to deal with.

How was the receptionist to know this wasn't one? And as others have asked, what's your source on this?

"...cases of recorded crime are falling. I have no doubt at all that it is in large part due to the fact that people just don't bother to report many crimes any more. Too many people just don't see the point."

I suspect this is likely to be true.

Anonymous said...

Inspector Knacker said...
Iain,
what's the source of the "wait your turn" story ?


It is in the Daily Telegraph, so it must be right.

Anonymous said...

It's bad, but I doubt it'll get any better under the Tories.

Go and live in the States if you want good policing. I was in a medium-size city on the east coast for several months, and you couldn't drive for more than five minutes without seeing a police car. The police were respected there, too, perhaps because they didn't pull you over if they saw you eating behind the wheel.

As for burglary, it's quite legal to kill someone if they've broken into your property.

You wouldn't believe how safe it felt.

Anonymous said...

He didn't say "I have just killed two people".

He said that he had information about the killings.

That is is according to an eyewitness (Lucy Downer) who was in Lewisham Police Station at the time.

It was 2.00 in the morning. There were very few police officers in the station at that time. It probably took the duty officer 5 minutes to find someone who was involved with the case.

The Coppersblog Team said...

As 'Old William' says, a number of police bloggers have been exposing police nonsense for a long time. Trust me, lots of rank and file officers are very unhappy with the way things are.
As he says, Copperfield's book Wasting Police Time provides a useful insight into the mind of the average bobby, as opposed to, say, that of Sir Ian Blair.
It's not true to say that Dave was sacked, though; he resigned and is now working as a police officer in Canada. He still contributes occasionally to the blog.
For what it's worth, not all police officers are cowardly midgets who only want to arrest kids for throwing cakes at each other.
This is a very complex situation, with lots of elements to it, which has arisen over many years. Directly-elected chief officers and bigger prisons with people in them for longer would be a start, but only a start.

Albert M. Bankment said...

Anonymous @ 12.14

Thanks for that. I was going to continue with something along the lines of:

We're far too placid a people. There's nothing like enough civil disobedience. The Poll Tax riots were, although shocking, a healthy example of what can be achieved when we refuse to allow excesses to become the norm. Let's see more eggs chucked at Cabinet ministers, more piblic ridicule, more follow-up by the national press on Private Eye's [and Guido's] laudable and courageous exposés, more prosecutions of civil servants' thefts and back-scratchings, more French-style burning barricades, more tarring-and-feathering of county councillors, perhaps the occasional broken leg or more. We seem to think that sucking our teeth disapprovingly and mouthing off on blogs will change things, but it won't. The police, the civil service and the politicians will only heed us if they are afraid of us and our potential to hurt, humiliate, prosecute or even - in extremis - kill them.

And before anyone does a trace on this post and locks me up for 42 days, I'm emphatically NOT advocating criminal behaviour, but merely observing that the scoundrels have to fear the possibility of moral or physical pain, fuelled by moral outrage. I'm thinking more along the lines of Dr. Johnson's dictum "the prospect of hanging concentrates the mind wonderfully", and the example of poor old Admiral Byng, unjustly shot "pour encourager les autres".

So, let's see Peter Hain being dragged through the courts. Let's see more derision heaped on the egregious, grasping Wintertons and Ballseseses. Let's see David Marshall's expenses forensically analysed. Let's see an absolute SNP landslide in Glasgow East. It's clesarly the only language the rascals understand, as has been shown by their contemptible voting patterns last week.

I have long maintained that, had we been invaded in 1940, Britain would have been the most loyal province of the Reich. There are always enough sanctimonious creeps who take the view that "the law's the law. I might agree with you that having a summary death penalty for parking on a double-yellow is a bit on the harsh side, but where would we be if we all thought we knew better than the authorities? So, sorry about this but I have job to do. Don't take it personally." BANG.

Anonymous said...

Indeed. Someone forcibly entering your home, trashing your house and stealing your stuff clearly isn't worth making a fuss of is it?

Of course not. It means you have a house, and stuff, and it was tidy enough that 'trashing' it made a difference.

Ergo you are middle class, and so have waived the right to have any say in anything.

The revolution, when it comes, will not come from the proletariat (who are frankly obese and wheezy anyway and would be no use on the barricades). It will come when the middle classes realise that all their money has been taken from them with menaces and used to fund things they actively don't want.

Obnoxio The Clown said...

@chris paul: what is an "aggravated" crime, I wonder? Is that one of those crimes that is somehow worse because it was committed, or was implied to be, in the name of some form of bigotry? Like a "racist" murder, which is so much worse than a normal murder? I mean, clearly, the victim of a racist murder is so much deader than the victim of a normal murder!

@blue eyes: given the financial backing required to run an election, I'd dread to see the consequences of judges being elected -- they'd be largely beholden to whoever backed their campaign. Chief Constables and possibly prosecutors; but not judges.

Rog said...

I was out one night and woke up in hospital the next day with head injuries.

Someone attacked me from behind in a bar(without motive) then proceeded to kick my head in and leave me unconcious. (And scarred)

The police had a witness, cctv footage AND the suspect.

No prosecution.

airshipman said...

Iain, I agree with your view but it's such a depressing state of affairs.

I am seriously considering joining the police (I have my interview for the Met in two weeks) but I just don't know whether I could put up with all the crap.

I'm a graduate from a very good university, a Special Constable and the sort of person who might actually be able to make a difference in the police... But could I do better elsewhere?

Anonymous said...

Got rammed in the back of my car in the middle lane on the motorway last week by a foreign juggernaut - driver hadn't seen me and pulled out as I was passing him in the middle lane. Driver claimed it was my fault! Dialled 999, police not sent because 'no one was injured'. Highways Agency vehicle sent but couldn't take any action other than record details.

killemallletgodsortemout said...

@chris paul

And will you stop banging on about unaggravated burglaries when there are clearly more important and serious things to go at?


Tell that to the pensioner who has just been robbed, you utter moron.

strapworld said...

If I may throw a little caution into this discussion. many are saying that elected sheriffs or local police commissioners are the answer.

I certainly believe that we need more 'localised' policing. Especially when everything these days, be it policing, education or the dear old NHS, is centrally driven, under this government, with its one size fits all cap!

But be a lttle aware of the problems of the fifties of locally elected Watch Committee's. These became, in many cases,discredited due to corruption that they were one of the reasons for the last Royal Commission on Policing.

What I believe is required is a root and branch reform of policing. To return to the days when policing was by consent. When Chief Officers were appointed locally and dealt with local issues without central government getting involved day by day.

To achieve such a return to the policing, we (in the police) and the public respected, it would need a government willing to release their political hold on policing.

A Royal Commission takes time BUT such a body would be able to look at all options. The 1960 Royal Commission came very close to agreeing to a National Police Force. They would have to look at that again as well as the continental method of policing with its Town, Regional and Central structures.

BUT we must, surely, return to a commonsense style of policing, walking the beat (which does deter crime and reassures the people). Local Police Stations being re-opened, and uniforms which reflect authority. (I live in North Wales and the police uniforms are a damned disgrace, baseball caps and scruffy jumpers !!).

And, Please Mr. Cameron, a ditching of the Human Rights Legislation and especially the Health and Safety nonsense- which is making us a nation of cowards.

Finally, If Mr. Cameron truly believes in more power to local authorities then he should promise legislation to change policing boundaries to fit in with local authorities and ensure that Chief Officers have actually 'felt a collar' or two!! Let us rid ourselves of Police Chiefs who should be in the Social Services!

Anonymous said...

Yes it would be an unusual Police Station if a "Policeman", not woman I notice, was on duty. These jobs have been civilianised to free officers for patrol duties and of course the thousands that are guarding our elected representatives etc etc. As the chap gave himself up he is unlikly to do a runner but why miss an opportunity to bash the Police. Here's a thought, swear in all the MPs as "Specials" and let them Police London for a few weekends.

Dick the Prick said...

I was an intelligence analyst for many years and a burglary ain't a burglary if you don't know what they've nicked - it's criminal damage (no psa on that). The best one is though - how to keep crime down?? Don't answer the phones. They are a much maligned group of public servants though - this government try to make them social workers, housing officers - hell, even counsellors. Let the police be coppers and make the other lackeys in local government do their job!!! Local gov vote Labour - coppers vote Tory. I err.. reluctantly rest my case.

Unsworth said...

Anonymous 11:12

"The boy was already dead when the PCSOs arrived at the seen (sic). He was under water in the large lake and there hadn't been any trace of him for more than 20 minutes.

And of course, being totally telepathic they knew that when they arrived at the scene.

ranter said...

The trouble with all this talk about LOCAL accountability is that it won't be a solution to the massive demands on manpower (or staffing as the PC gits insist on).
The NEIGHBOURHOOD policing nonsense illustrates this perfectly as these teams are ringfenced i.e. they cannot be used for anything else.
They are also made up mostly of the useless PCSOs.
Like the new KNIFE CRIME SQUAD announced by the equally useless and recently knighted Paul Stephenson, the deputy met commish.
Once annual leave, sickness, court appearances, paternity leave, maternity leave, diversity training, H&S training, time off for marching in full uniform in Gay Pride marches here and abroad and similar nonsense, these teams are effectively useless too.
The RESPONSE teams then take over these responsibilities, but they too are rapidly diminishing because they have to supply personnel to these teams and all the other squads that have been formed to deal with the variety of politically motivated targets as well as try to reduce the demand on police services.
So you have TELEPHONE reporting bureaux, SAPPHIRE (sex crime) Units, HATE crime units, ROBBERY squads, PRISONER PROCESSING units which also have to get their personnel from the frontline etc etc .
For example, before 1998 on the London Borough of Greenwich was covered by 4 Divisions, ELTHAM, PLUMSTEAD, WOOLWICH & GREENWICH. There were sub-divisions at Westcombe Park, Shooters Hill and Thamesmead. The Divisions were covered 24/7 by an Inspector, sergeants and constables, each had their own charging station and control room. On night duty you could have officers out on footpatrol as well as all the mobile posts filled. On a division on a night duty it was not uncommon for there to be 30 -40 PC's + 10 sergeants to be on duty. Each divison was managed and supervised by an inmspector. The stations were also open 24/7 and you would speak to a police officer who would deal with you by getting you some help, giving you advice or tell you to get out and stop wasting his time.
Now the ENTIRE borough of Greenwich will be covered by ONE inspector and on night duty it isn't uncommon for there to be less than TEN constable's on duty.
PROGRESS?
All discretion has also been taken away from officers. Anything reported MUST be recorded.
The reduction in standards to promote equality and diversity and to fill impossible racial quatos post MACPHERSON, combined with the falling standards throughout society because of poor educational standards also mean today that we have the police officers we have. All led by a bunch of career oriented, overtly political senior managers whom one wouldn't be criticised for thinking the originals were SWP sleepers. The modern ones are simply products of their time, more social worker and social engineer than police officer.
In London the manpower for sporting events, ceremonial events, demonstartions and other public processions comes from across London. The whole thing is descending into chaos now, if it were locally run it would implode.
Added to the misfortunes of the police is the introduction of PCSO's clearly designed to reduce costs and to fill the required racial quotas. If you know central London well, you will see these waste od spaces wandering around in groups of 2, 3 or even 4 @ £21000 pa EACH.
All the big District Police Training Centres have closed - Hendon too - if it hasn't it will be soon.
All training now done in force or at a university campus - as in Kent I believe, as basic training is considered a foundation course towards a degree in policing (B.A.) Musn't forget our work/life balance either and also now must consider Child/Family friendly hours and shift patterns. Madness.
Then we have the current spectacle of very senior officers, from ethnic backgrounds, alleging they have been overlooked for promotion. These are men at Commander rank and above, and apparantly there's one more to come out (After he's been promoted to Commander naturally).
If the police force went back to (rather were allowed to go back to) its origins, back to Rowan & Mayne's principles of policing, then the instituion might be saved. But that's unlikely - as an institution it is doomed, the foundations getting a last good kicking back in the early '90's by Ken Clarke and his mate Patrick Sheehy. It is one big social engineering project, controlled by politicians and he legal profession, paralysed by fear of litigation from anyone playing the race/gender/sexuality/disability card.
NOTHING can or will be done about it. AS many of my former colleagues say 'The Job's FUCKED'!

Tony Abbot's new view from the sky said...

Part of the problem are these non-coppers they put on the front desk. they are hopeless. My old man is an ex cop and says these guys do not think like policemen.
And don't even get me started on PCSOs.

Johnny Norfolk said...

We have The Police Force sorry service that Labour have provided.

It is the government that you need to blame not the police.

James said...

"institutionally" means effectively, "by policy". In other words, don't blame the individuals, they are simpply adhering to laid down policies regarding prioritisation of cases.

An example of "institutional racism" was that stop and search at one time prioritised the stopping of young black men over old white women. That was "institutional" racism (and institutional sexism/agism too).

I agree with strapworld for the first time ever on most of what he says.

I would add that the failure of Home Secretaries of both parties to align the Probation Service with the Police (from the seventies) has had a damaging effect on the fabric of society.

Together, expert post-jail supervision by (mostly male at the time) P,O's could have made a difference. Instead, probation was aligned with social services and, sorry to be sexist, lacks men who could offer the male guidance to young delinquent males that is clearly missing from their family lives.

Anonymous said...

wrinkled weasel - I think it slightly unfair to tar the 'Terrence Higgins Trust' with this brush..

Certainly a 'rainbow alliance' has been kicking up a fuss about this, but I'm not aware that any 'respectable' charities have been involved.

There are some prats in any walk of life - but I'm not sure you can tar all gayers as being in favour of this.

That said it would be interesting to know that Matthew Parris makes of it; as he has fessed up to being involved in strolling around parks in London while he was an MP, even though I don't think his nocturnal activities were as exciting as the ones they are alleging go on at the 'Downs'.

Anonymous said...

They are there to retain law and order come the inevitable military coup that this country will have if someone doesn't get McBroon out of No 10 soon. That's what they are for.

Dave H. said...

Glad someone pointed out the police blogs. There's a great deal of frustration over how centrally imposed targets resulted in the politicisation of their work.

They also describe how they blatantly fiddle the crime statistics to keep the Home Office happy.

I was going to point out the commenter who wrote 'police stats are showing a reducing trend' was suffering from a delusion, until I looked at who it was.

As well as the two mentioned, PC Ellie Bloggs and Nightjack are very well-written too.

DiscoveredJoys said...

There is a worrying thread running through recent times, and the invisible police are merely one aspect of it. For whatever reasons, the police service 'organisation' now exists to promote its existence. Actually it is only one method of ensuring good behaviour, for the general populace, not a sacred cow for the police themselves.

Similarly the NHS continues to kill people through MRSA etc, rather than alter 'the organisation'. Actually it is only one method of delivering reasonably priced health care to its customers, not a sacred cow for the nurses and doctors.

Similarly Members of Parliament appear to be dismissive of peoples concern over (some) MPs expenses and corruption. Actually Parliament is only one way of delivering democracy, not a sacred cow for the Members of Parliament.

I could go through a much longer list of examples (BBC, Privatised Utilities, Post Office, Local Councils, vast swathes of the Civil Service) but they are all examples where the 'servants' have taken over.

When these organisations start holding the concerns of the victim, patient, voter, customer as the organisations first priority, then things will change.

Until then I'm anticipating that an increasing number of powerless and ignored 'customers' will express their frustration by escalating physical acts of violence.

I don't like it, but the implied social contract appears to be breaking down.

Anonymous said...

Unsworth said...
"He was under water in the large lake and there hadn't been any trace of him for more than 20 minutes."

And of course, being totally telepathic they knew that when they arrived at the scene.

No telepathy required. There were fishermen at the scene and they had waded in to try to rescue the boy. They had given up and had dialled 999. When the PCSOs eventually arrived the fisherman told them that the boy hadn't been visible for some considerable time. Not much point in them going into the water at that stage.

Anonymous said...

Where is Verity these days? This is the sort of thread she has always loved.

Anonymous said...

The nine principles by Sir Robert Peel, Read them and weep.

The basic mission for which the police exist is to prevent crime and disorder.

The ability of the police to perform their duties is dependent upon public approval of police actions.

Police must secure the willing co-operation of the public in voluntary observance of the law to be able to secure and maintain the respect of the public.

The degree of co-operation of the public that can be secured diminishes proportionately to the necessity of the use of physical force.

Police seek and preserve public favour not by catering to public opinion but by constantly demonstrating absolute impartial service to the law.

Police use physical force to the extent necessary to secure observance of the law or to restore order only when the exercise of persuasion, advice and warning is found to be insufficient.

Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence

Police should always direct their action strictly towards their functions and never appear to usurp the powers of the judiciary.

The test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with it.

Baldwin said...

You won't see significant improvement in policing until after the Tories win power.

As always Labour are rubbish on law and order. A hamstrung feckless police force is primarily a symptom of government failure.

Paul said...

To suggest our police service is institutionally incompetent is an indefensible and unhelpful position to take, and the crime figures debunk your argument far more persuasively than your anecdotal evidence supports it. As a Conservative voter, I hope the party takes an altogether more supportive stance for our police service when it comes to power. It is disappointing to see Conservatives indulge in such ill-considered criticism of some of the most committed public servants we have.

England is one of the safest countries in the world. It's an absolute fact. You are considerably less likely to be murdered or be a victim of serious crime in this country than you are in these supposed hard-line, people's policing utopias like the USA and Canada. There are more officers in service than at any other point since records began. The quality of British policing is globally respected and officers from around the world travel to the UK to learn from our constabularies.

There is a serious problem undermining law and order in the UK, and public confidence in the police. That is the media prism that policing is viewed through (yourself included). Journalists pick on the holes in policing and ignore the achievements. They report the anecdotes and not the facts. Its understandable - the police are an easy target in a society that takes law and order for granted, and people hate that someone might punish them for the minor crimes they habitually commit - speeding (breaking the law), littering (breaking the law), abusive behaviour (breaking the law). On the point of diversity - during the Stephen Lawrence enquiry, the service was rightly criticised for its lack of diversity. Now the service is criticised for the diversity procedures it is pursuing to try and avoid such incidents in future. It cannot win.

The media loves to humiliate the enforcers of the law. Politicians dream of politicising the service. But 1000 journalists and politicians are not worth one police officer.

My suggestion to anyone concerned about police performance in their area is to contribute constructively. Join Neighbourhood Watch, make sure your property and that of your neighbours is properly and safely secured, become an independent custody visitor, be a member of a police authority - there's plenty you can do to help make the country safer, all of which is a lot more productive and public spirited than sniping on a blog!

PS - Your post above - 'Who would want to be an MP?'. With excellent salaries, expenses, comfortable surroundings, lack of accountability and secure facilities, I think being an MP is an altogether nicer lot than being a police officer or PCSO!

Area Trace No Search said...

I have posted about the inanities of some people that approach us whilst in the front office on my blog before.

Incidentally, Lewisham Police Station is not only staffed at the front office by Civilian Station Officers only, they are not even Police Staff and are in fact private company employees as part as one of the Government's PFI arrangement with certain trial areas in the Met.

Metcountymounty said...

I posted this on coppersblog after someone quoted your post.

All Met Police front offices are staffed by civilian station reception officers (SRO)and Police officers are only posted to them when short staffed, so the odds are that it was an SRO and not a Police officer the killer spoke to.

Further to that if someone walked up to you and said "i've just killed two people" are you going to think that they are being honest or are you going to think "yeah, alright mate thanks very much" This isn't The Bill, funnily enough it doesn't happen that often, people walking in and spouting crap on a constant regular basis does though.

With regard to not investigating some crimes, all police blogs have posted extensively about the effect that the Government issued National Crime Recording Standards have had (here's mine if you're remotely interested http://sheepdogsandwolves.blogspot.com/2008/04/look-how-red-line-goes-down.html) we have to investigate EVERY SINGLE REPORTED CRIME no matter how pointless or pathetic or even if it actually is a crime, the simple fact that some member of the public thinks it is or should be means we have to investigate it.

Given the enormous amount of crap that people think we should be dealing with our hands are tied and we have no choice, the flipside means that means that most often crimes that we should be dealing with like burglary become nothing more than a ticky box exercise.

I'm not defending the incredibly poor performance, I hate the fact and have been a victim to it as most people have, but oversimplifying the problem and blaming the Police alone is an extremely easy and misguided option.

strapworld said...

james said.

Thank you!

I will protect my own family and property said...

We will never have the standard of policing that we need until we get directly elected Chief Constables, instead of the pseudo liberal social engineers that are in place at the moment.

They need to be answerable to the local electorate that they serve, and sackable if they don't perform to their satisfaction. At present they simply chase politically correct targets set by central government in the hope of a knighthood or placement on some well paid quango after retirement. (Cynical, moi???).

BTW, Wasn't it the case that us "erks" gave up the right to protect ourselves on the understanding that the police would protect us and keep the streets safe so that we could go about our peaceful business. If the police can't or won't protect us, then maybe we should think about protecting ourselves.

Trumpeter Lanfried said...

My daughter found her retro car being trashed by a young drunkard. He caused £800's worth of damage. By luck, two police officers were on the scene. The drunkard took a swipe at one of them.

Result? Prosecution for criminal damage? Prosecution for assault on a police officer?

Nope: Let off with a caution because 'It is a first offence and we want to keep this young man out of the criminal justice system.'

The police officer who broke the news to my daughter was squirming with embarassment.

Trumpeter Lanfried said...

Just read Chris Paul [10.02 am]:

"And will you stop banging on about unaggravated burglaries when there are clearly more important and serious things to go at?"

Let's all go round and burgle him: no aggravation, mind. Just break in and steal his stuff. Nothing else will work. The man is clearly deaf to reason.

Curbishlyauto said...

All Met Police front offices are staffed by civilian station reception officers (SRO)and Police officers are only posted to them when short staffed, so the odds are that it was an SRO and not a Police officer the killer spoke to.

It is mentioned in the Daily Mail to day that the suspect handed himself into Lewisham Police station and was told to wait by a CIVILIAN receptionist.

Can I remind you that such receptionists do not have a power of arrest.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

"This situation, and the dire economic circumstances, are, historically, a pre-cursor for civil unrest ......"


There's a whole lot more than civil 'disturbance' coming our way; far too late to stop it now. I'm looking forward to it.



Anonymous said..

"Where is Verity these days? This is the sort of thread she has always loved."


I spotted her over on the Melanie Phillips Diary having her arse kicked by another member of the sisterhood. Seemed that the wench felt that since Verity likes to give it she ought to be able to take it. They have a higher standard of sister over there.


Paul July 08, 2008 8:29 PM

Are you on drugs? If not, you should be on medication.


PS Anyone else notice that plod this morning calling for Rape Squads for all? We certainly can't be allowing totally innocent men being allowed to walk free when femnazis are still anguished at the sight of any man.

Anonymous said...

Mr Dale

Read this. This is why the guy had to queue.


London borough of Harrow. Population about 250,000. Two Police stations with a front desks.

The main one is located in South Harrow.


It has an electronically controlled front door.

You physically cannot get in until the desk plod buzzes you in.

He/she will not do that if dealing with someone already.

Several time I have spend unhappy hours queuing outside on the street in all weathers for my turn at the desk to report crimes.

It's not like Tesco's. They don't open another till when it gets busy.

Max said...

Go back 40 years and the station would have been manned by police officers, with a uniformed duty sergeant and probably a uniformed duty inspector.

Fast forward to today and you will find stations manned, (when they are manned at all), by civilians with "police staff" badges on display.

Fine dedicated people I'm sure, but no powers of arrest.

Btw, I understand that CPSO's are currently being told during training that they are not being recruited because there is an increase in crime, but because there is a misplaced public perception that there is an increase in crime.

So we can all relax.

Max
http://theerrorlog.blogspot.com

Unsworth said...

@ Anonymous July 08, 2008 6:48 PM

"When the PCSOs eventually arrived the fisherman told them that the boy hadn't been visible for some considerable time. Not much point in them going into the water at that stage."

So why did the copper who arrived at the scene some time after the PCSOs, and as a result of their call to their controller, immediately strip off, dive into the lake, and attempt to find the child?

Or are you saying that some sort of miracle might have ocurred in the meantime? Brilliant deduction, Sherlock!

Anonymous said...

Unsworth said...
@ Anonymous July 08, 2008 6:48 PM

"When the PCSOs eventually arrived the fisherman told them that the boy hadn't been visible for some considerable time. Not much point in them going into the water at that stage."

So why did the copper who arrived at the scene some time after the PCSOs, and as a result of their call to their controller, immediately strip off, dive into the lake, and attempt to find the child?

Or are you saying that some sort of miracle might have ocurred in the meantime? Brilliant deduction, Sherlock!


By the time the PC arrived the child hadn't been seen for nearly an hour. Are YOU suggesting that he thought some sort of miracle had occurred.

The PC obviously felt that he ought to demonstrate to the PCSOs how heroic he was.

The Raven said...

Well, said Unsworth. Plus, I would have thought that humanity alone would have made any decent and reasonable person have a go at finding the boy - however slim his chances might have seemed. Obviously health and safety comes before common sense and soul.

Kevin said...

Trumpeter Langfreid said: My daughter found her retro car being trashed by a young drunkard. He caused £800's worth of damage. By luck, two police officers were on the scene. The drunkard took a swipe at one of them.

Result? Prosecution for criminal damage? Prosecution for assault on a police officer?

Nope: Let off with a caution because 'It is a first offence and we want to keep this young man out of the criminal justice system.'

The police officer who broke the news to my daughter was squirming with embarassment.


Interesting, but irrelevant.
The police don't decide on who gets charged and who doesn't.
The CPS do.

Anonymous said...

Depending on whether you take in the water through your nose or your mouth, you can be revived a considerable time after 'drowning'.

The police are a disgrace, bar one or two exemplary individual efforts.

Unsworth said...

@ Anonymous July 09, 2008 4:49 PM

The PC obviously felt that he ought to demonstrate to the PCSOs how heroic he was.

That's a possibility - after all there are far too many Walts amongst the ranks of the police and PCSOs. However you are making the assumption that because the child 'hadn't been seen for an hour' he had been under water for that entire time. And this despite no one knowing exactly where the child was. Now that's an even better deduction Sherlock!

Have you actually read the Reports? I quote: "The inquest heard Jordon was under the water for between 10 and 30 minutes before he was hauled out.

An air ambulance took him to the Royal Preston hospital where he later died."


The police sergeant, who arrived after the PCSOs stood around doing nothing, got into the lake, found the boy who was still alive at that point, hauled him out and started an attempt to resuscitate him. At least he showed some courage and humanity.

Presumably if you were faced with that situation you'd have just waited for the morgue ambulance to roll up - if that.

Anonymous said...

Unsworth said...
- Have you actually read the Reports? I quote: "The inquest heard Jordon was under the water for between 10 and 30 minutes before he was hauled out.
An air ambulance took him to the Royal Preston hospital where he later died."

That report is misleading. He was dead at the scene. He was PRONOUNCED dead at the hospital.

Anonymous said...

" ...Driver claimed it was my fault! Dialled 999, police not sent because 'no one was injured'."

The police don't normally attend damage-only accidents. In fact they aren't even obliged to record details of damage-only accidents.

Anonymous said...

Got rammed in the back of my car in the middle lane on the motorway last week by a foreign juggernaut - driver hadn't seen me and pulled out as I was passing him in the middle lane. Driver claimed it was my fault! Dialled 999, police not sent because 'no one was injured'.

Obviously it would have been nice if you could have got the police to charge him with careless driving, but unless you had independent witnesses there is no way that the police would have taken any action.

I presume that no-one else stopped, apart from the other driver. Any passengers in your car aren't considered to be 'independent' witnesses.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

"He was dead at the scene."

Serves him right. Utterly outrageous that he should dislocate the routines of our gallant public servants when they could have been munching donuts.

Centennial College said...

A man puts an excellent example of honesty.

Heads of to him !

:)

police foundations