Tuesday, July 08, 2008

The Inevitable Result of Big Government

If ever there was a good example of the inability of government to run its own affairs it has come today, with the revelation that last year benefit cheats defrauded us of more than £800 million. Not only that, the government wrongly paid out £1.9 billion, double the figure of five years ago. Added together, those two figures are the equivalent of an income tax cut of 2.5p. Scandalous.

There should be a public outcry, but there won't be. Why? Because this kind of incompetence is what we have come to expect from government. We are no longer shocked by it.

It is, of course, impossible to totally eradicate benefit fraud, but it shouldn't be impossible to eradicate overpayments. And if it is, then the whole system needs scrapping and replacing with one which DWP staff can understand without needing a degree in applied mathematics.

34 comments:

Anonymous said...

might I add that since genuine benefit claimants (and a majority of claimants are genuine) are by definition the least able members of society, in fairness the system should be simple enough for them to understand.

Pat

Anonymous said...

"There should be a public outcry, but there won't be. Why?"

Because neither the Government nor Opposition want one, what with most fraud being professionally organised by the non-British so enriching the nation.

Chris Gilmour said...

Can you help me with the maths here, rather than being a 2.5p income tax cut, what would be the equivalent raise in the income tax threshold?

Anonymous said...

Hit the nail on the head there Iain. The root problem is the complexity of the system.

I volunteered to do advice work in a CAB after years at a senior level in Industry. Understanding the benefits system is by far the most challenging aspect of the work.

Anonymous said...

Why is it impossible to eradicate benefit fraud? Just because this government and their half-witted civil servants can't think how to eradicate it doesn't mean it can't be done.

Anonymous said...

How much more does the government lose each year as the result of tax evasion by the richest members of society?

Why isn't there a public outcry about that?

I'm not defending benefit fraud or government incompetence, but the hypocrisy of people who bang on about 'benefits cheats' while remaining silent about tax cheats sickens me.

Richard Nabavi said...

There should be a public outcry, but there won't be. Why? Because this kind of incompetence is what we have come to expect from government.

True, we're no longer surprised by the mind-boggling incompetence of this government. Luckily, it's looking as though the nightmare will soon be over and, within two years at most, we'll have a government which can start putting things right.

It will be a long haul, though. The scale of the problem is massive - repairing the social and economic damage of what will probably have been, to adapt Harold Wilson's phrase, thirteen years of Labour misrule.

Anonymous said...

"And if it is, then the whole system needs scrapping and replacing with one which DWP staff can understand without needing a degree in applied mathematics"

Are you sure you mean APPLIED Mathematics? Traditionally, that has been a Mechanics course (Statics and Dynamics).

Anonymous said...

Of course, benefit fraud was not widespread when we had a Conservative government.

Chris Paul said...

Codswallop. What about the rich at the other end. How much are they avoiding and evading?

Anonymous said...

Iain

The mantra inside Tesco is: "Better, Simpler, Cheaper"

Managers are constantly challenged:

Can we do things in a way that is better for our customers?

AND

Can we do things in a way that is simpler for our staff?

AND

Can we do things cheaper?

No project gets approved without answering all three of those questions.

No manager flourishes without proving themselves on all three.

Wish to god the same applied in the public sector.

Frustrated Taxpayer

Anonymous said...

What about the "benefit cheats" otherwise referred to as Members of Parliament? The kind of money some of these people are claiming from the taxpayer is certainly a national scandal!

Anonymous said...

The only way to eliminate benefit fraud is to eliminate benefit.

Arthur said...

No Iain, it most definitely is possible to totally eradicate benefit fraud: stop benefits.

This, of course, is not going to happen either but our system of benefits no longer has anything to do with helping those less fortunate than others. It has now become a system that enslaves most of those who receive benefits in a staggering form of Eloi dependency.

Anonymous said...

There is a way to eliminate benefit fraud - eliminate benefits. Why should we tolerate a scheme where unstoppable corruption exists? When the majority of people in the country are caught by the benfit system, either by direct payments or tax credits, then you can no longer argue that the system exists to help those in need. It is simply a giant intrusion into people lives that is wastful, corrupt and unnecessary.

Anonymous said...

I'm more worried about how much the MPs defraud from the taxpayer.

At least the people on benefits actually need the money - the MPs are simply stuffing their faces/pockets at our expense.

Anonymous said...

Let the fraudsters have a vote to carry on being fraudsters like politicians.

rosie said...

Well I don't know about anything else but if some of the staff in the DWP were fluent in English it would help.

Anonymous said...

What about the rich at the other end. How much are they avoiding and evading?

That's their money they are trying to keep, whereas benefit fraud is someone taking our money away. Morally they are completely different.

Avoidance is perfectly legal. Evasion isn't but if nobody did it, the government would put taxes up even more.

Anonymous said...

However they spent more on investigating fraud than the cost of the fraud itself. It may be argued that without those investigators the fraud would have been much larger but it is surely, at least partly an instance of the purpose of government being to pay government employees (& lobbyists).

As we see more & more government expenditure being to pay for inspectors, tules, windmillery & quangos I get the impression that we could easily afford our welfare payments - it is the administration that we cannot afford.

Anonymous said...

chris paul: if the tax system in this country were not infernally complex, there would be far less incentive to either avoid(legal) or attempt to evade(illegal) payment.

That alleged genius, Gordon Brown (together with his mad sidekick, Ed Balls), has made a major contribution to the nightmare of personal and business taxation over the last 11 years, and therefore made it far more worthwhile for the rich to seek methods of avoiding taxation.

The world of the Inland Revenue was fairly nasty, murky and incompetent during the 70's, 80's and 90's - it has declined precipitately from that low status since '97, thanks to Mr No More Boom'nBust.

Anonymous said...

I think the approach here should be along the more commercial lines that if the Government has spending plans then they are reduced by an amount that could be reasonably realsied -real time- from recouping overpayments in such areas as benefit.
Frankly there is no pressure on Government to reduce overspends - its always spend first.

Anonymous said...

"Because this kind of incompetence is what we have come to expect from government. We are no longer shocked by it."

True. And it starts in small government.

Even this story isn't that shocking anymore...

Anonymous said...

2.7 billion is a remarkably small amount of money, given the size of the budget. I commend the Benefits Agency.

I would eradicate both at a stroke. Abolish benefits. Let the poor starve. It would solve so many problems. And the incentives would surely boost the remaining economy.

As for Little Lord Fontelroy and the ludicrous Chris Paul. They fail to see the irony in their statements. Let me help. A man spending his own money is unlikely to spark an outcry. Anybody who avoids or evades taxes deserves as much help and public sympathy as possible. They have my best wishes, modern day Anne Franks.

Anonymous said...

Benefit fraud is small fry compared to the money lost on tax evasion. Why do we hear more about the former than the latter?

Anonymous said...

At last some sense - Neil Craig, sure make these departments more streamline, but don't knock it until you know how blocking fraud could be more efficient.

I propose instant long term community service looking after those with the disability they have feigned. This backed up with a local shaming campaign and full reparations with interest, which if unpayale means a long period of national service for the council.
CEccleston

Anonymous said...

Wow no wonder the goverment have got no money, if they are loosing this kind of cash on benefits. In my job normally if one person in the house has a bad back you can guarantee the other will have asthma. Wages are to low people, cant afford to go out to work, banks understand this and will take state benefit to pay the mortgage, at least the income is guaranteed.

Anonymous said...

As for Little Lord Fontelroy and the ludicrous Chris Paul. They fail to see the irony in their statements. Let me help. A man spending his own money is unlikely to spark an outcry. Anybody who avoids or evades taxes deserves as much help and public sympathy as possible.

Oh dear. Someone else who plainly doesn't know what irony means.

People who evade taxes are criminals (that's a fact, not a value judgement).

You may argue about the proper level of taxation within the economy, but even the most ardent Thatcherite would agree that some taxation is necessary to fund essential public services. If everyone evaded their taxes, who would pay for the armed forces? (I presume you would agree they were essential)

Anonymous said...

I had to phone HMRC - they had asked me to to complete an additiobnal tax form in addition to the main Return I had already sent them. I phoned a few days later to check if they got my form and to discuss one of the items I had included on the form.

HMRC said, "Sorry but we have a 4-week backlog in opening letters sent to us". Then he went on to say he thought this was a good response time ! And we get fined £100 if our Tax Return is 24hours late. What utter incompetence !

Anonymous said...

Well a Government can turn any action it doesn't like into a "crime". Being Jewish in Europe in the early 1940's was a "crime". That was a fact as well. Just because any Government calls any undesirable action or event a "crime" does not necessarily make it a crime in the real sense.

"You may argue about the proper level of taxation within the economy".

Why thank you for recognising part of my democratic rights to live in peace.

"But even the most ardent Thatcherite would agree that some taxation is necessary to fund essential public services".

I am. And I don't. F*** "public services".

"If everyone evaded their taxes."

No. Everyone should be encouraged. There would still be a residue of stupid people(socialists) who would pick up the slack. We could even change the name from the grossly offensive Income Tax(you don't tax benefitial activities) to a Stupidity Tax. Darwinism would suggest that eventually this stupid breed of human would disappear from the face of the earth in time. And decent less-taxed citzens would welcome this.

"who would pay for the armed forces? (I presume you would agree they were essential)".

Iraq. What is the point of invading countries if we can't compensate ourselves. I don't remember Caesar levy more taxes to conquer Gaul, do you?

Now why don't you take your bleeding heart off to some other place and plague some other unfortunate.

Anonymous said...

@mr richard nixon:

You can always tell when someone has lost the argument when they resort to analogies about jews and the nazis and start swearing.

Anonymous said...

a very public sociologist said...

"Benefit fraud is small fry compared to the money lost on tax evasion. Why do we hear more about the former than the latter?"

Because there is no limit to the greed of tory tax evaders.

Anonymous said...

Little Lord Fontelroy...
In the name of Jehovah, F*** off you Nazi!

Anonymous said...

mr richard nixon wrote:

Little Lord Fontelroy...
In the name of Jehovah, F*** off you Nazi!


No.