Well that was a surprise, wasn't it? Like most people, I expected Sarah Palin's candidacy to self combust tonight. It didn't, and she didn't. Joe Biden spent most of the debate talking about John McCain. I would love to know how many times he mentioned his name. He came across as a typical Washington old hand - just the opposite to Palin. Yes, he is experienced and would be a perfectly adequate Vice President, but in this debate he never caught fire.Sarah Palin decided to be herself. She clearly hasn't got the substance of Biden but she was more substantial on several issues than I expected her to be.
It will be interesting to see how different parts of America reacted to this debate. I suspect New York and California will give it to Biden, while middle America would have been impressed by Palin.
In reality, neither of them scored a real home run. Biden was solid and performed as most expected him to. But I do think Palin edged it, simply because she didn't make a single gaffe and surpassed everyone's expectations.
70 comments:
Have we been watching the same debate?? Palin was so useless it was embarassing. I don't think she answered a single question directly. She just went into long rambling cliches. Biden couldn't attack her because it would have looked like bullying. Seriously, though i question your judgement...
Yes Biden failed to "floor" her. As Palin may have said, "Heck, that was kinda the point".
The bar was indeed set patronisingly low, and with the aid of soundbites, smiles and ten-worders, she just about cleared it.
But if this is regarded as some cracking success then it just shows what a bad pick she was, and what a terrible state the McCain campaign is in.
Well I must have been watching a completely different debate, because in the one I watched Palin utterly failed to convince anyone that she could be a competent VP or (heaven forbid) President.
Completely agree with Anonymous and Ordovicius - got to question how far your partisanship is affecting your judgement here, Iain.
yes i admit Biden didn't "floor her" but to suggest that she held her own or in some way "won" or came out top in the debate we have all just watched is wrong. she was folksy and soundbitey (new word!) she repeated the same few catchphrases over and over again. she was boring and bland. on foreign policy she was shown to be wanting and to be well behind Biden.
I think the late hour is affecting your judgement Iain.
Palin can count this as a victory because she survived - but have you really set the bar so low?
Biden rattled off the figures, he kept his answers reasonable, he pitched a folksy message pretty well.
He didn't land a punch but he also avoided all the traps of being patronising, misspeaking etc.
It's a score draw but I doubt Palin got any new voters even if she solidified her base. And with Obama opening up a lead it's the floaters who need to be convinced.
BTW: did she and John Prescott have the same debating coach? She mangled more sentences that than Hull bruiser. I'd like to see them go head to head.
You don't win a debate by exceeding low expectations, you win it by knowing more about the issues and having a better plan for the future. Biden won on both scores.
Palin tried this embarrassing folksy "i'm one of you" stuff. the best she could hope for tonight is to not fuck up, and she managed that. just.
not a gamechanger
You must be joking Iain!
Palin didn't do badly, but it was a clear victory to Biden, no question.
So far: Obama/Biden 2 McCain/Palin 0
what was that family clusterf**k at the end about? every living relative and a few dead ones up on stage!
Palin just came across as a swot who had spent the last week memorising her answers. The only time she came close to a hockey mom moment was when Biden said he ate at Denny's and shopped at Home Depot. Then her voice went up an octave as she tried to prevent him stealing her folksy schtick. I thought they were going to kick-off but they both pulled back from the abyss. Unfortunately.
I'd say a nil-nil draw.
Watch The Daily Show for Oct 1. Absolute classic. Peggy Noonan is on and Palin is demolished. Now why isnt Peggy the republican candidate?
Biden didn't flaw her. Palin did exceed expectations. Neither of these come anywhere near to explaining your analysis that she somehow 'edged it'.
NBC, CNN, Fox etc all giving Palin high marks (of course in many cases grudgingly).
A woman with only five weeks on the national stage held her own against a senator who's been in DC for thirty+ years. Not bad going all in all.
Remember these aren't really debates in the normal sense of the word, they're a show to try and win over the undecided voters and on that basis I suspect she did well because style and manner are very important.
CNN commentators (not those obviously aligned - Castellanos, Berger etc) giving it to Biden.
the virtue of "not having the floor wiped" with her does not make it a win Iain!
Biden was very disciplined. Focused on McCain the whole debate, very often it seemed as though he was deliberately ignoring her. She warmed up as the debate went on, but he demolished her in the Foreign Policy section. She got the name of the top US General in Afghanistan wrong several times, and gave a very dubya pronounciation of 'nucular'.
And Biden was fantastic at the end, channeling her passion about family, and slapping down the McCain 'Maverick' nonsense. She never came back after that.
She wasn't a disaster, but she didn't win by any imagination.
Then again, you are a West Ham fan Iain!
"Like most people, I expected Sarah Palin's candidacy to self combust tonight. "
You know, Iain, you should read a little more widely - stay off the mainstream media and dip your toes into the US blogosphere.
Then you wouldn't get these surprises... ;)
The commenters here desperately trying to convince you you didn't see what you thought you saw should tell you something, shouldn't they?
I think Biden's job today was to be competent and statesmenlike and not floor Palin and I think he did it well. I'm not surprised that you called it for her though. What's really disappointed me about coverage of this campaign is that debates, interviews, conventions, whatever are all interpreted on party lines. The blogosphere is as guilty of this as the MSM: there's a complete absence of analysis just endless boosting of one side and denigration of the other. I know this is nothing new in politics but I have never felt it so clearly as this year.
Iain - you seem to have fallen for the folksy low expectation setting of Republicans in recent days. Yes she failed to bomb badly - but remember the huge damage those gaffes have done. Also the lack of detail in her answers is shocking - she may not be pitch perfet on everything but she needs to have something. We also don't have any sense of independence from her yet - what we get is advisor-fed policy combined with homespun mythology.
Ultimately, its the economy stupid - and just what did she really say on that?
And try this analysis - admittedly you may not like its source, but it seems to ring true:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-m-shrum/mccain-lost-the-vp-debate_b_131468.html
So far early reactions in vox pops bear out Iain's analysis. Palin is receiving a very positive response. Whether that translates into polling is too early to say, but initial signs are that she went down very well.
"Palin edged it"? hahaha how? with her gimmicky and folksy winks at the camera? Iain, I worry about your judgement sometimes.
Oh please. Sarah Palin met her LOW expectations by not being willing to discuss policy in too much substance or detail.
Clearly she is not qualified to be Vice-President. It's a joke.
Nothing really changed with this debate. McCain/Palin is the most anti-intellectual ticket ever.
Obama will win by a landslide.
(CNN) -- A national poll of people who watched the vice presidential debate Thursday night suggests that Democratic Sen. Joe Biden won, but also says Republican Gov. Sarah Palin exceeded expectations.
The CNN/Opinion Research Corp. said 51 percent of those polled thought Biden did the best job, while 36 percent thought Palin did the best job.
What I expected, if I may so say. All Palin had to do was not fall apart, whilst Biden was hamstrung by the need not to seem to pick on her.
As is tradition it won't affect the campaign.
We obviously watched a different debate, Palin was well 'just too damn folksy' in my opinion too damn ignorant and evasive to be a heartbeat away from the presidency, which given McCain's age is a real issue.
email received from the States this morning, quote- Dear God, please tell me this was not screened in Europe.
Incidently talking of ignorance which University did Dave go to ?
I quote his Grace on Dave's conference speech
It is a pity he muddled his philosophy when he mentioned libertarianism. Either he does not understand Mill, or his speech writers were out of their depth and Mr Cameron, a PPE graduate, failed to pick this up through the drafting process. He defined the ‘libertarian’ as one who asserts the right to do whatever he or she wants, regardless of the effect on others. This is the antithesis of Mill’s principle that people should be free to do as they please as long as they do not harm others.
Worrying to have a potential PM, who does not have basic understanding of political theory
Biden had to not knock her out but to land alot of blows.
He did that and she waffled bullsheet for answer after answer.
That said you purr like a cat at rabid republicanism and so would be seeing this trhough the eyes of Rove et al.
Please, America, tell me it isn't true? Is that all it takes to be fit for the vice presidency? Ignore the questions you are asked? Deploy the carbon-copy speeches you were trained to say, over and over again? Give answers to questions you weren't asked?
The only way Sahra Palin did succeed in the debate was by being able to utter complete sencences most of the time. By sticking to the script she was drilled like a fly to a glue trap. As if someone had her winded up and sent to the debate like a toy soldier.
I'm not so sure I want that to be true for a possible POTUS...
With the Republicans now behind in Florida and Ohio and support weakening in Texas, yup, that Texas, she needed a to do a little better than avoidance of self-combustion
The idea that a Cameron-supporting gay member of the commentariat is shouting Ra! Ra! Ra! for an anti-gay marriage, anti-abortion, even in the case of rape and incest, would truly be laughable, if it were not so deadly serious...
Seriously, Dale, 'Catch yourself on' as they say in Ireland..
Biden has bleached his teeth, unless they are false. Whatever I find it impossible to watch him speak wirhout being distracted by his ivories.
Does it really matter what we all think - sure it may be nice and smug to opine from afar on our perception of who won and who lost - but yak40 is nearer the mark: how did it play with the swing voters in Ohio? Pretty well I imagine.
Palin would have had to projectile vomit or set fire to the podium to underperform expectations.
And whatever you made of it, Iain, the reaction polls show Biden crushed her. This is not about her gender or her state, or even her daughter's impending parenthood. It's about the prospect that John McCain could keel over (and remember he will be the oldest man ever to be inaugurated as President if he wins) and Sara Palin would be left to square up to Putin and Ahmadinejad. And for that you need more than a few pre-scripted one-liners.
I sometimes find your comments utterly incredible. Are you even remotely self-aware? Giving the benefit of the doubt to someone who has revealed in all her interviews that she knows nothing about anything is just more evidence that you will always support the right wing candidate even if they are a crazy. There are some American conservatives like David Frum who have had the courage to speak the truth about this. There's nothing conservative about promoting the unqualified. Ridiculous.
Currently at drudge
68% say Palin won
30% say Biden won
http://www.drudgereport.com/
For me it was the fact that she allowed herself to be herself, that pulled it off. Probably a lesson there for Gordon Brown too.
Thats what i dislike most about political blogs they come out with some dire claptrap. you go to the labour blogs and you see them fawning over the goverment. you look at this and other blogs and see the bias. please be more independant i suppose its asking alot and probably naive but some people who check this blog aren't brain dead and can smell bias. I've just watched the debate and as a non affilated person to the left or right. To say that she won because she didn't flop and didn't fluff her lines is just plain silly.
You think an online Drudge poll is representative in any way whatsoever? You don't think I might just skew in Palin's direction?
I just love the Obama losers that post here.
Here's a NEWS FLASH lefties. John McCAin will be the next President of the USA.
The Americans will NEVER vote such a liberal Senator into power.
Stop listening to the lies and bile pumped out by the Barack Broadcasting Corporation.
Gosh, Martin, that was an insightful post.
Martin, you may well be right. But one has to feel, surely, a slight sinking in the stomach that anyone can fall for Palin's gee whizz-shucks-aw-mom schtick.
The republicans have also forgotten what they're meant to stand for. If they don't stand for small government and a reduced state, then what precisely is their raison d'etre?
please be more independant i suppose its asking alot and probably naive
um, it's Iain's blog. He can probably think and post what he likes.
Personally, I couldn't disagree with him more on the subject of Palin, but he doesn't have any kind of duty to be impartial. And no-one's forcing either of us to come here.
What dismays me is that even Palin's supporters accept that she is an ignoramus. The only issue has been whether or not she could get through the debate without showing it.
But this is not a reality TV programme. There is a could chance that, if elected VP, she may find herself President.
The disaster of Wall Street may have revealed the malaise at the heart of the American financial institutions but this (and the self-serving handling of the crsis by Congress) shows that the political ones are failing also.
The sight of it all must be making enemies of the USA dance with glee, while even her friends find their respect diminishing.
"The National Stonewall Democrats condemned remarks made by Vice Presidential nominee Sarah Palin, who said during an interview with Katie Couric that being gay is a "choice."
"In the release, the executive director of the National Stonewall Democrats, Jon Hoadley, said, "John McCain chose a poor running mate, but he did not choose his sexual orientation."
"Added the release, "This is another example of why we need a pro-equality President like Barack Obama in the White House. "
"For Governor Palin to suggest that individuals randomly choose their sexual orientation based on nothing but a whim is wrong and it repeats the talking points of the anti-gay special interests which continue to control the McCain/Palin campaign and the Republican Party," the release continued."
Iain, choose your friends more wisely. You should demand that Sarah Palin step down. But - no - you still don't get it. you still don't see the big picture.
Of course Dale has the right to whatever opinion he decides to express but it is right to call him on opinions that seem eo be motivated by slavish party/ideological loyalty, to such an extent that he even entertains Palin as a serious figure.
The best blogs are by those who surprise us with their views rather than fall into line.
But its true that readers can go elsewhere if they wish.
In the US they often talk about winning the post-debate spin, ie trying to convince the pundits that their candidate won.
By coincidence a large number of astroturfers show up in Iain's comments insisting that contary to what we all saw, Joe Biden in fact won.
NYTimes: spot on
"the debate did not change the essential truth of Ms. Palin’s candidacy: Mr. McCain made a wildly irresponsible choice that shattered the image he created for himself as the honest, seasoned, experienced man of principle and judgment. It was either an act of incredible cynicism or appallingly bad judgment."
A lot of people commenting here just don't seem to 'get' American politics, where people look for someone like themselves to represent them (hence Bush rather than Gore). Right wing leadership in America is not so associated with an elite well educated leadership (like many of the Conservative front bench here), but simply with right wing ideology/values, which Palin displays strongly. Palin was the more striking communicator I'd argue at connecting with her electors, despite being less informed about the issues. If in some recent interviews Palin has made Harman seem a strong interviewee, I think this performance shows Palin is developing her media performance quickly. Her best is still to come!
Drudge voters scored is massively to Palin.
Bob Lutz focus group scored it to Palin
So go **** yourself Mr Anonymous. And all the rest of you lefty trolls.
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives2/2008/10/021673.php
All as previously predicted by yours truly
Politicians often avoid tough questions - but with Sarah Palin, most people feel like she doesn't know the answer, not that she is avoiding a politically delicate one.
Sarah Palin's big problem, which is now John McCain's problem, isn't ideology. It's her lack of seriousness, especially on foreign policy. That's no joke.
The USA needs serious leadership. They need a leader who will think things through, who will try to understand the complex problems facing the world. I don't believe anyone thinks of Sarah Palin as a serious politician. She has become a national joke.
McCain and Palin are not fit for office.
trevorsden,
in a CBS poll 98% of undecided voters watching said that Biden was knowledgeable on the important issues. around half that figure said the same of Palin.
of course, knowledge doesn't matter, not when you're a whole heartbeat away from the nuclear codes - what I want from a VP is someone who can say "doggone it" a handful of times.
she is the very epitome of how personality politics is slowly destroying the intellect of the Western hemisphere.
trevorsden - i think you meant Frank Luntz for Fox alongside Drudge. Not very scientific but you obviously like polls. So go and read them and you'll see who's winning.
"It was a debate that ranged over a very wide array of topics - from subprime mortgages to Afghanistan to benefits for same-sex couples - and no one could have expected Palin to have mastered every detail of every subject. What she conveyed beautifully wasn't policy wonkery: It was reasonableness, groundedness, common sense, and intelligence leavened with good humor and real-life connections."
(Jeff Jacoby at The Boston globe)
Conservative commentators (with the predictable exception of Andrew Sullivan) have almost unanimously echoed Jacoby's sentiments - and many Liberal voices have grudgingly admitted she did well. Jacoby's point (which Iain has grasped but most posters here have not) is that this was not an academic viva for selection to a Washington think tank or a Harvard faulty - this was an election broadcast to the millions of ordinary American voters. Palin will not probably save McCain from defeat but something has happened that is of immeasurable importance for the political future of America - the appearance of a young Conservative with government experience, untainted by the discredited Republican machine and able to connect with ordinary people. And what is even better - she obviously scares the hell out of the liberal political and media establishment and many of the posters here! Watch this space - Palin/Jindal 2012?
"Barack Obama has opened up significant leads in virtually every key battleground state, according to multiple polls released Wednesday. The size of the shift towards the Democratic nominee may indeed be historic."
"It is difficult to find a modern competitive presidential race that has swung so dramatically, so quickly and so sharply this late in the campaign," says Peter Brown of the Quinnipiac University Polling Institute. "In the last 20 days, Sen. Barack Obama has gone from seven points down to eight points up in Florida, while widening his leads to eight points in Ohio and 15 points in Pennsylvania."
Who cares about Palin anymore? Only the late night comedy shows.
Iain - given that you were basically fawning over Palin a few weeks ago, it is remarkable that now you say you expected to floor her. The post debate polls show a clear win for Biden. At least Palin showed her ability to repeat lines to take.
Palin's a lightweight, that much is clear. It was clear before the debate and it's even clearer now. Expectations of Palin's performance were low, and she scored a bullseye.
But she's far from unique: George W, who can't even hold a book the right way up but who got voter approval for not being able to say words of more than two syllables without tripping over his tongue. (Not to mention reams of material for comedians on both sides of the Pond.)
There are two contests going on in the American Presidential election: the one to show competence and the one for votes. There's obviously crossover between the two, but winning the former doesn't guarantee winning the latter, just as winning the latter is no guarantee of competence. Remember Dan Quayle, anyone? Living proof that being an illiterate as well as ignorant puffball is no bar to being "a heartbeat away from the presidency".
Gore Vidal summed it up pretty well when he expressed the hope that the half of Americans who have never read a newspaper were the same half of Americans who had never voted for President. Sadly, I think that was something said with more hope than conviction.
"Gore Vidal summed it up pretty well when he expressed the hope that the half of Americans who have never read a newspaper were the same half of Americans who had never voted for President."
Oh, did you know that Sarah Palin reads ALL of the newspapers? Every single one of them. She says so - it must be true? Can't wait for Tina Fey on SNL tomorrow night.
Palin continually shows us the depth of her ignorance.
Had he floored her, the right-wing sounding board would be whining about "beating up on a woman".
You're way off on this one Iain. Way off. Partisan hackery undermines you when you do it.
Palin gave a delightful, feisty presentation but it did not convince any clear eyed pragmatist.
I was impressed with the pure amount of wordage both got through. This really is a gruelling marathon. Biden scored some apparent hits on being able to name lots of bills/amendments McCain had voted against & how this proved he was against the nominal subjects thereof however I suspect he was cheating & all McCain had really voted against was wasting money.
Palin was at her best when she was saying what she had done in Alaska - cutting taxes, cutting government & drilling for oil - rather than when defending her boss or the previous boss.
It's got nothing to do with partisanship. I have already made clear I havent decided who to support. I have also said I have been very unimpressed by Palin's media performances in general. So cut the crap about partisanship. I watched the whole debate, which I suspect most of those commenting on here did not.
IMHO, although nobody outwitted the person next to them, I think Palin survived this one only because she didn't goof it up.
Replying to a previous reply
Yes its his blog so he can say what he wants. but he is showing his bias and i'm pointing that out which is my right.
Iain, you say "I have already made clear I havent decided who to support"
Why is that? What is it you're waiting to find out? Are you going to go for the 'winner'? Surely, you've seen enough and heard enough and read enough and researched enough to now be able to make an informed choice?
The Republican party goes against everything you believe in and everything you are. They despise you. Why can't you understand that? You should really stand up for yourself.
There is no inclusiveness with the McCain/Palin ticket. Why would you support a political party who hold such repugnant views?
I've just spent the last 90-odd minutes watching the debate. I hope that qualifies me in Iain's mind to comment here.
I also find myself shocked, Iain, at your opinion. If partisanship holds no relevance to your aired view then I restrict my shock to your ability to judge (from a neutral standpoint) a head-to-head political debating contest.
For me the most shocking thing about Governor Palin is not her inexperience (as we all now know, reliance on experience is often just an abject plea of the more aged yet less able), but her intellectual incapacity and severe lack of acquired knowledge.
Senator Biden spoke with complete comfort on the range of issues. He gave answers with depth and drew on quite obvious knowledge in forming his opinion. In contradistinction, Governor Palin failed miserably to rise above the two-dimensional status of somebody reeling off statements learnt by rote. You could even see in her eyes the efforts of memorial recollection that we may all recall from schooldays past when reciting times tables or practising for school plays.
The greatest example of Governor Palin's frightening lack of knowledge was, of course, in the realms of foreign policy. Like it or not, the American President along with his VP and Secretary of State count amongst the very most important statesmen on the global political map. The best one could say of Palin's foreign policy analysis was that she has learnt the names of a few statesmen (and whilst realising the way Cuba plays to the American electorate, I still find it shocking that the "Castro brothers" found themselves mentioned in 2008 in the same breath as Ahmadinejad and Kim Jong-Il).
I would be surprised if the majority of contributors to this comment section could not beat her in freestyle no-holds-barred debate, and that really is not something one should be able to say without a wry smile and a tone of sarcasm!
Make no mistake, Senator McCain chose Governor Palin for her possession of reproductive organs and for scant reason aside. That was an error on his part and US voters should think carefully about whether he ought to pay for it.
and please, let's not credit her with inventing "Say it ain't so, Joe." This expression goes back to Shoeless Joe Jackson and the 1919 World Series. I'm sure she had it on one of her notecards, and just waited to throw that at him. In fact, I think most of her comments were right there on the lectern in front of her. When she had to go "off book" it really showed.
I thought she did very well, but then again I'm not an envious misogynist.
My, but there's an awful lot of 'anon' commenters busily trying to prove that we didn't see what we thought we saw.
Or, is it just the one...?
I watched the debate.
Palin did very well overall. No difficult areas . She just held her own against the Washington insider and didn't let him dominate her. several times she flung it back at him.
Bearing in mind this whole thing is aimed at the voters of America and not the world commentariat it was tactically very smart.
This counts as a clear victory for Palin.
And don't she have a nice bum and legs!
I thought she did very well, but then again I'm not an envious misogynist.
Of course, because criticism of a women, no matter how valid, is always misogyny, isn't it? FFool.
Listening to Sarah Palin debate I had a nagging recollection at the back of my mind.
There was a sense of beauty queen deja vu.
Finally, it clicked:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj3iNxZ8Dww
I've noticed that a number of visitors here have commented on Palin's stance on gay marriage and then related that to Iain with the comment "How could you support her?".
I don't wish to speak for Iain but I'm reminded of a gay Republican congressman in The West Wing who was asked by Josh Lyman how he could be gay and a Republican. His response was telling:
"I agree with 95% of the Republican platform. I believe in local government. I'm in favor
of individual rights rather than group rights. I believe free markets lead to free people
and that the country needs a strong national defense. My life doesn't have to be about
being a homosexual. It doesn't have to be entirely about that.
I suspect that's how Iain feels.
There are 2 separate issue with Palin. She was so bad in previous interviews that the possibility of a (now) high profile politician falling flat on her face was quite high. But that isn't normal politics. Normally if she were even half-competent we'd be analysing her answers, if she makes sense and knows what she's talking about. Though she didn't fall flat on her face, she certainly didn't pass the second test on policy, clarity and knowledge. That's the standard that should be used. It's interesting how they barely used the split screen during the debate but the full recording showed Palin reading her notes the entire time the camera was off her. She failed the basics of test in that she was entirely reliant on notes. The CBS/CNN polls clearly gave the win to Biden. The Time focus group in Colorado showed a doubling in people who thought Palin was unprepared to be VP. And what about her gigantic flag pin? It's kind of like Dom Joly's giant phone sketch. Fox went to town on it but unsurprisingly failed to mention that McCain didn't wear a flag pin during his first debate appearance.
Obamacons here are talking about Sarah Palin's lack of knowledge and yet no-one seems to be talking about the so-called foreign policy expert Joe Biden.
According to him, Hezbollah have been kicked out of Lebanon, Pakistan have missiles that can hit Israel (he's out by about 1,000 miles) and he supports Obama's call for Nato to get involved in Lebanon (WTF!).
If Palin had made any of these errors people would be right to criticise, except she didn't, in fact, apart from getting the Generals name in Afghanistan slightly wrong, she didn't make any errors of this magnitude. So using the Obamacons logic, why exactly is Joe Biden ready to be a heartbeat from the presidency?
Doug
FYI, she had no notes on the lectern, that isn't allowed in debates, only notes you make yourself during the debate.
As regards whether Biden was dheating on the points he made about what he & Obama supported here is a discussion on his claim that after the defeeat of Hamas he & Obama had called for NATO to keep the peace in Lebanon & McCain had opposed it.
http://www.jerrypournelle.com/view/2008/Q3/view538.html#Saturday
Completely fabricated on all levels.
If Biden had to drop out of a previous presidential race for lifting the "why am I the first Kinnock in a thousand generations...?" line (not something I have ever understood), why was it perfectly acceptable for Palin to use Reagan's "well, there you go again" - and be widely considered to have scored with it?
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