I wouldn’t be too bothered. I like your blog – even though my own politics are
probably 100% the opposite of most of your contributors! It is good to be
stimulated by those who disagree with you and maybe sometimes have your own
prejudices challenged. My only objection to “Iain Dale’s Diary” is the abuse
that I sometimes receive. As I have said I don’t object at all to those who
disagree with me and who say why intelligently. I do object to personal abuse. I
have received Emails from one of your regulars calling me an idiot and some of
the follow ups to my own postings have been vilely abusive. A New Year’s
resolution for all of your bloggers might be to avoid insulting language about
other bloggers – indeed at all!
I think he has a very good point. Can we all agree a joint New Year's Resolution - that we'll be much politer to each other in the Comments? Perhaps I have been too lax in this regard in the past. Surely a golden rule is that we wouldn't put in a Comment what we wouldn't say to someone's face or in a letter? I know I can be as shrill as the rest, so I may have to impose some self discipline too (Matron!), but I'm also going to be a bit tougher in moderating I think.
35 comments:
Bollocks!*
* I say this to people faces ALL the time.
They started it !!!
It doesn't bother me to insult someone to their face, so that lets me off the hook.
If Paddy Briggs can't take it, he shouldn't come to this site,which he knows is populated by people with strong opinions. No one on Iain Dale's diary is the target of as many personal insults as me and I don't go running crying, "Teacher!". I just ignore them or deliver a punch to the kidneys.
If Paddy Briggs's sensitivities are going to set the tone of discussion on Iain Dale's Diary and the blog becomes infused with political correctness, Iain can include me out.
Bullies, idiots, trolls, astroturfers deserve everything they get.
"Surely a golden rule is that we wouldn't put in a Comment what we wouldn't say to someone's face or in a letter?"
Face to face some people would have more than verbal abuse to worry about ;-)
His Grace restricts his communicants to the intelligent and erudite. Sadly, these are not qualities readily manifest by the political classes or by the multitude of attendant anoraks.
@Verity
Just beause the site is "populated by people with strong opinions" doesn't justify unnessecary verbal abuse. As Paddy Briggs said - there is such a thing as intelligent debate! Name-calling and heckling is immature and unconstructive.
Also, may I point out, there is a difference between political correctness and good manners.
My political beliefs are also in opposition to the majority of this blogs readership; still one of my most visited blogs though. It shouldn't and doesn't really matter.
A Swansea Blog
Iain, I think, maybe, it is a bit unfair of you to single out 'Paddy Briggs comment' for a post without getting his response beforehand?
In an indirect way - you are subjecting him to even more abuse?
How can you right that wrong?
:)
You should hear what I say to people's faces, but generally I agree with your call for good manners.
K S Rees - Thanks for the lecture. I never would have realised all those school ma'armish truisms for myself.
You quote: "As Paddy Briggs said - there is such a thing as intelligent debate!" With an exclamation mark!!
I don't think any of the contributors to this blog are going to take lessons in manners from a school ma'armish stranger.
You might do well to medidate on Oscar Wilde's defintion of a gentleman: Someone who is never rude ... unintentionally.
The popular nature of this blog is due primarily, of course, to the genuis - coupled with a tolerant nature - of Iain, but the commentariat also contribute to its unique personality. I'm not sure what you think your anodyne opinion contributes, but I doubt that your blog gets a quarter of a million viewers.
Who is this little quizzling sneak Paddy Briggs anyway.De-bag the bounder and pack him off to matron with a carrot up his arse .
( I mean this in a collegiate spirit )
PS...what Praguetory said ...me too
Also, who is this hectoring, schoolma'army K S Rees?
We've never heard of him before and suddenly he's up on a speaker's podium telling us how to behave.
You have written your blog's suicide note. You are throwing the baby out with Paddy Briggs' bathwater.
I have always been polite on this and all other blogs - except to jailhouselawyer who I would quite happy describe as bottom-sucking murdering scum to his face...shortly before placing my fist in the middle of it for killing that helpless old lady with an axe.
I sincerely hope that there is Hell for him to rot in for all time.
Apart from him: decorum and politeness should rule at all times.
"I'm also going to be a bit tougher in moderating I think"
Threat or promise?
The only advice my first headmaster gave me as a teacher was to work on the rule of thumb that out of every class of 30, about one would be a psycopath. Good luck with the moderating.
fr 3:16 The rate rises to about 1 in 15 in private schools.
verity, your ad hominem fallacies are showing, dear.
If you have 250k readers, how many are put off by unseemly tones and poor grammar (ma'am has no "R", the apostrophe denotes the absence of a "d")? how many more readers would post comments if they thought that cat-flea-obsessed old hackers would desist from insulting them?
I am with "fr"'s headmaster, though I would add , "If you don't know which one it is, then it's probably you!"
Verity wrote:
If Paddy Briggs's sensitivities are going to set the tone of discussion on Iain Dale's Diary and the blog becomes infused with political correctness, Iain can include me out.
please please do it Iain - just until she leaves for good. No doubt when she is "insulting someone to their face" its after a bottle of gin, shouting at the rozzers with her knickers half way down her legs.
I'm anonymous of 3.36, and I reject 3.54's depiction of Verity. It's not Gin, it's Sanatogen.
By the way, Verity has more than once told me she was going to "report me to Iain", which were the only occasions she has made me laugh. (I think on one occasion I deserved censure and I now regret accusing her of spending too long under the hair-dryer. I'm not about to start the twelve steps, but if she went away I'd be happy to apologise to her.)
I am a life long Tory voter. I've been reading and occasionally commenting on Iain's blog as well as Tim's from their outset. Although I must admit I their draw is not what it used to be. Perhaps that is because I've been against Cameron from the outset and see little hope for the country if a Tory Lite government did get in. Nevertheless I
still find the blogs worth visiting. I especially appreciate Verity's insights; I am am afraid I cannot say the same for her tedious detractors.
k.s. rees said, "A joke's a joke, chaps, and I can take a joke as well as the next man, but this time you have GONE TOO FAR".
Escaped Teaching - What did you escape to, darling?
Anonymous 3:54 - I'm surprised Iain, in his new Sheriff of Dodge City mode, let your comment through. Why do weak men always try to insult women sexually when they're angry? Do you really think the words of an angry, inadequate stranger are of any interest to us?
Anonymous 3:36 - School ma'armish has an 'r' in it. It is an American usage.
Anonymous 4:26 - Hairdryers went out decades ago. Perhaps you should turn up your hearing aid and try to keep up with the news.
Anonymous 4:30 - I'm in complete accord with you about Cameron. I loathe him.
Geoff- Iain once told me I had to stop insulting Jailhouse Lawyer, although he let your comment through in a blatant display of sexual favouritism.
Verity wrote:
Do you really think the words of an angry, inadequate stranger are of any interest to us?
Clearly they are Verity otherwise you wouldn't reply. People take the piss out of you because you are the biggest hypocrite on this blog. Insult everyone and then retreat to claims of "sexism" when it suits you. You have nothing to say so why not make a new years resolution and move on.
There is a difference between witty repartee and grave insults. Unfortunately, the internet allows fast response and so witty repartee can degenerate into grave insult very rapidly, as that instant rush of adrenaline affects the judgment of the person responding. There is no brake upon those who suffer from this failing on this blog, because there is no material or other sanction to stop it unless Iain wishes there to be.
Verity starts with witty repartee and goes onto insults. Our last “spat” was interrupted by my needing to go to a diplomatic reception and so I missed her “last shot”, thankfully.
I think she should be asked to voluntarily moderate her insults to fellow bloggers. Third party non bloggers being seemingly ‘fair game’.
I will admit that there have been several times when I have drafted something and then “binned” it, because I felt it was too insulting. All those responses have been to Verity.
There is a strong tradition of veiled insult in England and that is something we should maintain. We do not want to fall into the error of obviousness.
There is another English tradition which is pedantry and, in that vein, I remind you that the treacherous Norwegian Prime Minister was Vidkun Quisling and that is the correct spelling, Newmania.
I do not hold to the view that K.S. Rees is a Quisling but I think that a little witty repartee must be allowed. However, the yellow and red cards should come out for downright offensiveness.
Iain should aim for people to be amused by the blog but not frightened to read responses.
Iain could also institute a system whereby bloggers can opt out of being insulted, provided that they agree not to insult others. This would help the sensitive and keep the readership up.
Anonymous 11:31 - Why can I state with certainty that you are a chippy male?
And a chippy socialist male, at that?
Clue: You advised me to do the socialist lock-step and "move on". You're a fidgety little New Year's troll! Admit it!
I've held back because Iain is listening to his new courtesy guru who is advising him on how to have a successful website. Who knows? If he listens, he may even become as successful as Paddy Briggs!
M.Histrov - who thought I was a provincial little Londoner (I know, I know) and should "take a few steps" outside my door to encounter differently ethnicked people for the first time in my life - and was chastened when a fellow IDD blogger recalled that I had worked in SE Asia for several years. M Histrov issued a semi-abject apology mentioning that his family had been truncated by dictators. He didn't say which ones.
Or why.
Now, he's back with another lesson. For Iain's benefit, he writes: Iain should aim for people to be amused by the blog but not frightened to read responses.
Did you hear that, Iain?
Iain could also institute a system whereby bloggers can opt out of being insulted, provided that they agree not to insult others. This would help the sensitive and keep the readership up.
We await further advices on running a successful blog from M Hristov and Paddy Briggs.
So, Verity, when the firestorm broke over at Samizdata a couple of years ago and the commenters came out in force to express their revulsion at the vileness of your posts and their desire that you would "move on", it was because they were socialists? At Samizdata? How extraordinary.
It can't have passed notice that when other commenters have criticised a blog host's policies you've been quick off the mark to point out that a blog is private property and the host can do as he wishes. You've a comment over at the Spectator blog now saying just that, do you not? Yet when Iain says he'd like a kinder, gentler blog you claim you're exempt. Again, how extraordinary.
Do you know what an ad hominem argument is? Do you know why it is considered a logical fallacy? Have you any arrows in your quiver that are not ad hominems?
Judging by the comments from Dizzy, Verity and Praguetory, these three tough-guys aren't afraid to say what's on their mind to the face of another web user.
Keeping Iain's plea for civility in mind, allow me to say simply that I beg to differ, as their propensity to hide behind nicknames (and/or *multiple* nicknames) would seem to suggest otherwise.
Of course, Iain could significantly reduce the abuse of multiple identities on his website at a stroke, but perhaps we'll have to wait until next year's resolution for that one.
(Hint: Yes, Iain, you will get fewer comments... but that's because many contributors will no longer be able to pose as a dozen or more people. It also means that you may have to do without the valuable input of people like 'Geoff'. In the end, what have you lost?)
And no, Verity, "Schoolma'armish" is not an American usage, at least not a literate one. The American usage is either "schoolma'am" or "schoolmarm". Your spelling is unique to you.
I don't really care how you spell it, but don't then try to bamboozle others with your fictions.
Verity
I see that you have visited my website:
http://brandaware.co.uk/
Thank you! However may I correct your impression that it is a blog. It is not. I use Blogger as a handy home for some of my writing but these pieces are not posted as blogs and there is not the opportunity for others to comment on them. I do not run a blog and would certainly not presume to advise Iain Dale on how to run one either. He does very well on his own!
Dr Syn - There was no firestorm (that I know of) over on Samizdata. I had been becoming increasingly irritated with the self-righteous, bossy Jonathan Pearce, the universal prefect. I recognised that he had a perfect right to chastise people on his own threads, but he started monitoring the threads of other contributors - including the sublime David Carr - and condemning, with school masterly solemnity, not just people's contributions, but their attitudes. He evolved from being a tiresome hall monitor to being the thought police.
One day, I simply never went back. A couple of people with whom I had been correspondening in a desultory kind of way, both wrote and told me that fellow posters had been enquiring about where I was and what had happened. I don't know the names of those who were unhappy that I'd left because, as I say, I never went back. I see that Field Marshall Pearce is still pontificating his brains out wherever he pops up elsewhere, including on IDD, and I sincerely wish Perry continued good fortune despite his presence. (Perry likes, and owns, guns, which would get him my vote even if he didn't own a blog as outstanding as Samizdata.) For those who don't know, it, it is (or was; I hope it hasn't degenerated) an immensely readable libertarian blog with an articulate, incisive commentariat. I don't know if David Carr is still posting, but he is a most entertaining writer with a wide frame of reference.
But I don't believe in turning back. You are woefully misinformed, Dr Syn. Woefully.
Syn writes: "Do you know what an ad hominem argument is?" Of course not! I'm just a girl! Girls don't know these things! We only read up on hair-dos. Are you sure you're not Jonathan Pearce in mufti?
Syn - in the US - school ma'armish is a perfectly normal usage for a bossy person like, well, yourself, for example. Of course it's not literate! That is the point of the term and the misspelling. Schoolma'armish is bossy and hectoring and unknowingly ignorant. You are schoolma'armish. It is used ironically. (Do you understand irony?) I don't know where you did your research, but mine comes from personal experience of living in the US. The term exists.
Syn notes that I have a comment over at the Spectator blog now saying that blogs are private property and policies are dictated by the owner.
Fair cop - except Iain did ask the commentariat for opinions on a kinder, gentler blog. Anyway, he won't enforce stricter policing because the exchanges are one of the things (apart from his own posts, of course, which is what we really tune in for) that draw people back. To see who's said what.
Tim - I have one web identity and that is Verity. I do not pose as anyone else.
Paddy Briggs, I don't know what brandaware is. If I clicked on a link, it wasn't intentional, and I'm sure I would have stayed less than 25 or 30 seconds. Brands of what?
BTW, to M Hristov, up on his wobbly little legs, if anyone can be bothered, you will see that on any thread on which he shimmers in, he spends most of his energy hurling imagined insults at me. Now he wants people to be able to opt out of being insulted. What a hoot.
Apologies. Part of my post above was misleading. I'd forgotten that on occasion I post as The Chocolate Orange Inspector when it seems appropriate. But people know it's me.
Verity, I'm glad that you are aware what an Ad Hominem argument is yet you have gone to no lengths to justify your usage?
I'm not going to repeat the arguments already put forth in my defence nor do I wish to personnally attack you. I'm making this post merely to highlight the fact that I have followed this thread and am not put-off by your protestations concerning my manner or opinions.
I just don't really see what possible motivation there could be behind being personally offensive to someone in the comments section of a blog; other than to experience a buzz from being 'controversial' perhaps.
Little Black Samba clearly disagreed with what I said and expressed his disagreement in a funny and inoffensive way. Surely this is how it should be?
I'm sure that there will be some long-winded and highly offensive response to this comment - that said I wonder if you know the meaning of 'tautology'?
Oh... and quoting Oscar Wilde? Deary me, what next? Voltaire?
A Swansea Blog
K S Rees,formerly of the Anonymous family: Thanks for the first laugh of the day. "Little Black Samba".
Tautology - Yup. Known what that meant since A-Level English.
No. Oscar Wilde's much funnier than Voltaire.
Tim: "...you may have to do without the valuable input of people like 'Geoff'. In the end, what have you lost?
Actually Iain would lose the contribution of someone who contributes regularly and rationally to this blog, was at a dinner he addressed last month and was mentioned in his speech and will come across to pound pavements for him when he gets selected.
I've also never used another "identity" on any political site including this one.
I just detest jailhouselawyer though. Sorry. In deference to Iain I shall now only expose his vile crime to those who don't know about it on other blogs.
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