Geoff Hoon has come under fire for his rather tactless comment that people should stop whingeing about the snow, and that if motorists are so concerned they should buy snow chains. However, I have some sympathy with this viewpoint.
When I lived in Germany motorists always had snow chains. They had to. They would also have winter tyres fitted. Clearly the expense of this in this country would be ludicrous, unless your car was absolutely vital to you in all weathers. Councils do have a duty to grit roads, but there is a balance to strike. Should they really invest millions of pounds in grit, gritter lorries and snow ploughs when they might only be needed once every ten or so years? If I were a councillor I doubt whether I'd vote to spend money on that over and above providing new education facilities.
But one things which does annoy me about this weather is that people in Britain seem to take no responsibility for keeping the pavement clear outside their own houses. In Germany and Switzerland it is a legal requirement for people to do that* - and not only that, but to grit the pavement too, if I remember rightly. In this country we just moan about the fact that the council has failed to get the snow of every inch of our pavements. Surely it isn't too much to ask to get people to clear their own part of the pavement each time snow falls?
* Ah, but what if you are old or disabled, I hear you cry? Simple. You arrange for a neighbour to do it. It's called community spirit.
45 comments:
I lived in Northern Europe for a while and I agree with you. If people had snow chains they could drive on most of the larger roads.
I went out and cleared my pavement and drive from snow, however, when walking my son to school I was amazed how many people had cleared the snow off their drives onto the pavement making them impossible to navigate.
While we're at it the moaning about schools closing was largely in part because many parents didn't bother sending their kids.
Taking responsibility for your own drive, and even the pavement curtilege outside that you do not own is still practised in some parts. Clearing leaves, basic drain grid unblocking, snow and ice etc.
But gritting pavements in shopping streets and gritting roads goes beyond that collectivism and social action. There seems to have been councils in London who didn't bother to grit last Sunday/Monday though they did have grit and gritters. Cos it was double time and cos they thought they could get away with. Or spin some yarn about saving their grit for a snowy day, or that it has a shelf life of 12 years so they don't keep any in.
Basic snow chains are quite cheap. less probably than jump leads or jack and wheel brace. And we often carry those even though we don't expect to use them that much if at all.
Actually I've changed a few wheels these last couple of years, including both outside my house and during a substantial journey.
Just now - curses - the Volvo is at the garage with an exploded gearbox and quite a quest to find the correct part at a proportionate cost ... 2.5 weeks and counting.
Yes but Iain this gets to the root of people's reliance of the state and being infantilised. For example there are cases where people try to mow the grass or tend the flower beds on council property outside their houses and are told off by council authorities that they are forbidden to do any such thing. And you get union representatives of council workers saying people should stop doing it because it deprives council workers from doing their job and then they say if the work isn't done the council should hire more workers while no doubt at the same time raising council taxes.
In many European countries there is also a legal requirement to have snow chains or winter tyres. More state compulsion. But even then some EU countries only recommend chains or tyres in certain alpine regions.
In Basel it's mandatory for shopkeepers and owners of office blocks and factories to clear the pavements outisde their premises, too. IIRC this applies to the whole of Switzerland.
I agree but my issue has been of a different nature. I work in a team that provides a service to elderly people who are often isolated. I have had a very precarious week trying to get from house to house myself. Almost everyone I visit lives alone and would be in no position to do anything about snow on the pavements - I know this is a slightly different position but if you had to trudge, as I did, on what is basically sheet ice in order to carry out a basic job which is pretty important - you'd know why I have an issue with the council not gritting even quite major thoroughfares.
It's easy to think of solutions for those who can but some of the most vulnerable who have been suffering for lack of meals-on-wheels deliveries this week (as happened in my own borough) and day centres not opening are those who aren't in a position to do these things.
It's when the council fails to spend our money on the likes of education and other basic public services, and then STILL refuses to grit the roads. That what gets people's back up.
Until recently out in the sticks where I live, the council used to place grit/salt boxes on all the steep hills so that we locals could grit the road when required. This year there is not a grit box to be seen. Having the main roads open is not much use if you can't get to them.
In my village I saw two volunteers out clearing snow from the pavements.
The shovel scraping sound soon drew many more, myself shamed into it included, to join them.
took about 30 minutes for 10 people to clear the pavements.
Hear hear!
It was 1986 or 87, the last big snowstorm I can recall around London. I couldn't get to work, nor could my brother (we tried, but the roads were clogged up and the trains were cancelled).
So having called in (no cell phones back then) we joined 50 or so fellow villagers and got out our shovels and dug out the snow.
Luckily the route we dug (also the bus route) led to the pub. And after a couple of (well earned community pints) we went back and dug again.
No Elf 'n Safty crap back then, we just wanted to get our cars moving and (be able to)get back to work and on with our lives. Next day we went back to work.
(btw - no kids playing around, the schools were open!)
Am I old fashioned? Just please don't align me with a hoon!
We have cleared the road outside our house Iain and so have our neighbours. We've all done it for many, many years. In addition, we clear leaves out of the gutters in the auturmn, and constantly clear up the rubbish and bottles left by teenagers.
But, that does not stop me resenting the fact I pay for these things to be done. And instead of these services our council friends first employ equality officers, go on their diverstity training and translate the English in every leaflet into numberous spidery scripts.
My husband tells me that when he was a boy in the 1950's at the first sign of snow the able bodied unemployed were sent out to clear the streets, in many case they were pleased to help in this way - to be useful. (Maybe the unemployed in the 1950's had more pride in themselves!!) Now, I also seem to pay a lot of tax that goes on benefits of all sorts - so how about some community spirit from those who could do a useful job for once!!
PS whilst snow chains are a good idea in the snow, they are fiddly and there are many of we women who need to find someone to put them on for us.
PPS Isn't Mr Hoon the man who sent the troops of to Iraq without enough equipment????
Clearing your own pavement is one thing, but the failure of local authorities to plan for and cope with keeping roads clear is appalling.
Geoff Hoon (the original Hoon of the now well known euphemism for a word that rhymes with punt) was wittering on Question Time about this sort of snow happening once in eighteen years, it costs £100,000 to buy a snow plough and £10,000 a year to maintain it and we wouldn't want the government spending money on that, would we, for something that only happens once every eighteen years.
What rot! It may cost £100,000 to buy a dedicated snow plough truck and £10,000 a year to maintain it, but this ignores two points:
1) you can get equipment to convert regular flat-bed trucks into snow ploughs/grit spreaders for a lot less than buying dedicated vehicles (i.e. so you can use normal council lorries to spread grit);
2) it may cost £10,000 a year to maintain snow ploughs that are being used each year, but it doesn't cost that much to mothball trucks that are used only every now and again!
As for local authorities running short of grit, how pathetic! Doubtless a combination of incompetence and penny-pinching - grit, even in large quantities, is not an expensive commodity - except of course when everyone suddenly discovers they haven't got any and they need it now!
And grit doesn't 'go off' in the way that some defenders of LAs and the government are claiming - sure, it can lose its salinity if you leave it out in the rain, but it's not so expensive to keep it covered and dry is it - it's not like grit needs heating or anything - just a roof over it will do!
And schools closing down en masse? Also pathetic. If kids can get to and from school then the school should be open. If some teachers are unable to travel a distance to their regular school, why can't they attend a school nearer to them under these circumstances - the theory being that there will still be enough teachers to go round. Sure, lessons might be disrupted a bit, but it'd still be useful for the pupils and would stop the economic disruption of parents needing to take time off to look after their children.
The economic costs of the last few days of chaos far outweigh the costs of planning for and dealing with this sort of event - there is no excuse for the failures of the government and local authorities other than incompetence.
I must admit we rarely have snow here, but every morning each householder goes out and washes the pavement down in front of their house. The pavements here get slippery, dirty and dusty!
You could be liable for damages if you clear the pavement outside your house and someone slips on the uncovered path. I kid you not! Councils have indemnity insurance, private individuals do not.
There needs to be a balance - national and local government should have a contingency plan for all weather conditions that will enable the functioning of basic services. The fact that buses were snowed into their depot in London is a clear example of complete failure to plan, or even to pay attention to weather forecasts. This fact - like Hoon's spineless buck-passing - is due to an endemic culture of shoulder-shrugging and lack of concern in local authorities.
Those on minor roads and in peripheral areas should take more responsibility (snow chains, clearing pavements and roads - heed the warning above!) and accept that bad weather will curtail their activities. Are there still communal grit bins in most areas?
I used to always have snow chains for my car - I once drove much of the way from Newcastle on Tyne to Lancashire on chains (including stopping in the middle of a deserted M62 to tighten them up).
But most people don't even have sensible shoes with soles that have some grip. They walk around in fashion shoes that have smooth soles complaining about the pavements not being gritted.
PS The pavement gritter came past my house gritting and ploughing before lunchtime on the morning after it snowed. It went around every side road. It has been around at least once more time since then. I am on the outskirts of the town but near the highest point. It is the one thing the council are good at doing.
I have lived in germany and it is a legal requirement to clear the pavement in front of your property, as is gritting your drive.
The difference between germany and here is that local councils in germany have their priorities in order and generally provide excellent services with good value for money. As a result, very few people mind mucking in. That is not the case in the UK.
Welcome to the snow clearing brigade, Iain. Any pictures of you sweeping the pavement? http://blog.matthewcain.co.uk/shovelling-snow-in-stoke-newington/
No. We don't have a pavement outside our house. But my partner spent a very happy hour shovelling snow off the drive and then gritting it. I was, of course, too busy keeping you lot entertained on here to have time to help out!
I take your point but would add that not everyone is physically able to do that and sadly the social climate where people would offer to help their neighbour has long gone. And if it was made law then it's just another excuse for litigation if someone slipped. Can you imagine the fear if a neighbour cleared some pavement for an elderly person and someone sued them?
Of course it should be a legal responsibility to keep the pavement in front of your home clear.
Councils could re-instate those large containers, for road salt,in every road. That would be far less expensive and the onus being on the able bodied inhabitants of each street to grit the pavements and side roads.
We have become a moaning society. We moan about everything now. I blame the 24/7 news. They always play on the negative - the bad news.
We need a GOOD NEWS CHANNEL.
I cleared the pavement outside my house on Monday afternoon after anyone who wanted to take a pikchersque snapshot of our snowy Ealing street had done so.
Took about 5 minutes and while I was doing it I got greetings from people I have never seen before. Clearly, at a visceral level the act is one of consideration, civility and good manners, which is why in an otherwise stand-offish City, people felt that there was a chance that I was not a thug and so were comfortable to interact as people once did.
Just reminds me that 20 years ago bus conductors had a reasonable life, but when the Routemasters finally left service so many people were barbarians - cheating, rude, violent, aggressive. And no, it was not Thatcher's fault.
When the government agrees to indemnify me against any claims for damages I will happily clear my drive and the pavement outside my property, just like we did in the old days.
For the first time ever on QT, I found myself disagreeing with Nigel Farage and agreeing with Geoff H**n and Shami Chakrabarti.
Not one person who was criticising the LA for not maintaining a fleet of snow plows owned a set of snow chains, and I suspect that they will still not buy a set over the next 18 years.
Public Liability
“But one things which does annoy me about this weather is that people in Britain seem to take no responsibility for keeping the pavement clear outside their own houses. In Germany and Switzerland it is a legal requirement for people to do that - and not only that, but to grit the pavement too, if I remember rightly. In this country we just moan about the fact that the council has failed to get the snow of every inch of our pavements.”
Jess has already made the point but it is worth stressing. If you do nothing and someone slips on your path or bit of pavement - then no problem.
But if you clear and someone still slips on your path or bit of pavement then you are legally liable and can be sued. It’s highly likely you will be too.
Most advisable course of action is definitely not to clear.
Having been brought up in Scotland and now having returned to spend my later years, I notice the difference is attitudes regarding snow clearing.
Fifty years ago everyone cleared their own piece of pavement/driveway. Now few bother. I'm told it's because of insurance as Jess the Dog states.
I still clear my drive. Getting out quickly while the snow's still fresh is the answer. It just moves like cotton wool.
Up here in the Scotland the council does an excellent job clearing town roads and pavements. There's a man in a wee carty who has been zooming round all pavements for 24 hours a day. This machine is never idle, it cleans pavements all year and in autumn it's used to clear leaves.
Germany could teach us a thing or two. They realise we all have a sense of responsibility for one another.
Clear or grit a path and someone slips - it's your fault.
Leave it as it is and it's their own fault.
The Englishman posted recently about how things used to be done - locals with the right equipment would be contracted to clear their local area. It's still done in places. Looking about the internet a few days ago I found a council advert tendering for retained snow ploughers placed in October last year.
Subrosa,
Is it really a sense of responsibility to each other if you are required by law to do it?
This is a 'normal' winter of old i.e. before the last ten years of mild wind and rain with the occasional day long snow 'event'. Politicians at all levels have assumed that global warming means milder winters period. It doesn't. Assumption is the mother of all f**k ups. Frankly Councils should have been replenishing grit stocks after the New Year cold snap when no doubt they used quite a bit up. They didn't. Result chaos where I live. The B roads are a waking nightmare, as I found this morning. Mind you I was passed by some nutcase in his Range Rover on the phone!!
PS: At least my Council is making an effort. The strategic A road under the Highways Agency is a bloody mess with snow and ice all over it.
"Most advisable course of action is definitely not to clear."
The left in a nutshell, folks - 'Don't do things for yourselves! Expect the State do it!'
Rohan said... “Mind you I was passed by some nutcase in his Range Rover on the phone!!”
Yeah. Is that compulsory with Range Rovers or what?
...[Very glad notwithstanding for the unfashionable Volvo 4WD out in the sticks this winter.]
Have cleared mine and my neighbours. And a few of us got together and started clearing our street
Why, oh why has all-wise, all-targets-achieving NuLab not appointed a grit tsar?
I cleared the path outside my house and more than a dozen others. No-one came out to join me, but a lot of people said thank you. It was worth doing, but it is much easier if you have a snow shovel. I paid £2 for mine in Wilkinson's - money well spent!
In Germany it is NOT compulsory to carry or use snow chains, simply advisory, indeed there
are some roads where they are absolutely forbidden. It causes damage to the road surface.
The use of winter tyres is becoming obligatory, and is taken up in most northern european
countries (apart from UK).
The clearing of snow outside your premises has always been compulsory, in the same way as it
should be cleaned once per week (usually Saturday's).
People do not know how to drive on snow, 30 years ago I lived in Licolnshire and used to drive around the hilly part (The Wolds)on untreated roads in just a basic Renault 5.... you get used to it.
As for clearing paths to walk on.... self help required, buy some sensible boots or shoes.
When Minis were still a novelty a local told us how his car would go anywhere in snow with the chains on.... he had them on the year wheels.
Most practical thing you've written on this blog for a long time, Mr Dale. Well done.
In Austria it is compulsory to have Winter Tyres fitted between October and the middle of April - and a good thing too! Chains are optional, but you need to carry them with you in some mountainous regions as you may be confronted with a conformity notice that only vehicles fitted with snow chains may proceed beyond a certain point.
As for pavement clearing, that is an absolute pain, but we all have to clear a two metre strip, and keep it clear from 6am to 11.30pm. Our bungalow is located on the corner of a road with 300M of pavement to clear. Two years ago we bit the bullet and bought a motor snow blower. We used it once only just after we bought it and as usual it's sod's law that we haven't seen much snow since!
Geoff Hoon has come under fire for his rather tactless comment that people should stop whingeing about the snow, and that if motorists are so concerned they should buy snow chains.
What Hoon said was just good sense. If any thinks it tactless, they are an idiot.
Hoon is right, Unfortunately it's difficult for politicians to utter this kind of brisk common sense any more because newspapers, political enemies and professional whingers make life unpleasant for them. And we complain that politicians are dull, cautious, automota...
One advantage of Winter tyres is that you can use snow chains on them without much risk of damaging the wheel (most modern ones are alloys, winter tyres are normally fitted to steel rims) or the tyre. To put snow chains on normal summer tyres risks not only damaging the wheel but the tyre carcass itself.
Additionally chains when used on uncovered roads will not only damage the tyre, but have a detrimental effect on the road surface itself. You should only really use them on snow covered roads.
It is the task of the Highways department to clear roads of snow and ensure that they are gritted. Its not just a case of ensuring people can use them, but so that services such as Fire and Ambulance can safely get to everywhere in the country within a reasonable amount of time. Its a matter of public safety.
Snow chains are not such a bright idea as it sounds.
...automata...
Well, yes. However... I know someone who was happily clearing the snow on the pavement outside their house when a council busy turned up and told them to stop, on pain of prosecution.
But when I was a child in Brum, it was your responsibility to clear snow from your frontage.
When did this change?
JuliaM said... “"Most advisable course of action is definitely not to clear." The left in a nutshell...”
[sigh] And how exactly is “the left” or even me responsible for the exceedingly long-standing legal situation vis-Ã -vis civil public liability law? If you clear and your postie or binman slips, he/she can sue; if you don’t clear and they slip, they can’t. It’s not terribly difficult to understand. OTOH you can always take out public liability insurance and clear to your heart’s content.
Tory Poppins is spot on.
In Newham, the Labour Council has spent £80,000,000 on a new office building which it hasn't moved into yet 9I understand there are som structural problems).
I'd rather have the footpaths gritted.
Spot on Iain.
A little more self-sufficiency and a little less state would hurt no-one. Let the grit-spreaders concentrate on the main roads.
It helps build some level of community spirit in Germany - no bad thing as a side effect!.
People have said that you are better to leave your path snowy rather than clear it and risk being sued. This is nonsense. If someone slips on your path because you didn't clear it, you are much more at risk of being sued than if you made a good attempt at clearing it.
The owner of the path has a duty of care to other users to keep it safe!
The question is a bit more murky if you clear the council's pavement, as the council would normally be sued if someone slipped on it if they didn't clear it, but if you cleared it and did a bad job (eg by throwing warm water on it to melt the snow...) then you are at risk of being sued.
However, the chance of being sued successfully is essentially zero if you do a good job of clearing the pavement (ie cleared down to pavement level, and didn't leave a layer of ice) and gritted it afterwards.
In china it is everyone's responsibel to get out to clear up the pavement and my mother 80 years old still can go out when there is heavy snow as it is safe to go out and here old people have to stuck in the house as no so many people bother to clear up the snow on the pavement. When I clear up the pavement and no one join in and someone warning me if some one fall over and I will have the problmes and liable and I said I do not worry and I would like to challenge the system and I beleive the snow is cleared up much safer than not cleared.
It's about personal responsibility. The issue is that for 12 years the government has been eroding away at the needs of the populace to have it, doing more and more for them, so everyone has lost the ability.
See More: http://stratfordconservative.blogspot.com/2010/01/responsibility-what-does-cold-snap-tell.html
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