Wednesday, February 04, 2009

Banned by Draper: My Life's Work Is Now Complete

Derek Draper should take some of his own psychotherapy. Having spent yesterday ranting at junior interns at the Taxpayers' Alliance, it seems that his Victim of the Day today is me. This is what he has just twittered...
LabourList has suspended Iain Dale from our blogroll until he clears up remarks he has made about "Golliwog" being an acceptable term.

On his pisspoor website he says this...
10.00 am Ashcroft sock puppet Iain Dale has defended Carol Thatcher and the use of the word "Golliwog". See, even the nice seeming ones are nasty underneath. On the Today programme he said Adrian Chiles must hear worse every day. No, Iain, he doesn't. Because he doesn't make a habit of hanging out with racist Tories. Until Dale thinks again we are suspending his listing on our blogroll. Come on Iain, do the decent thing and admit you got this wrong.

As my readers can imagine, I am truly bovvered. Inconsolable. Bereft. My blog won't be able to survive without the thirty visitors LabourList has sent its way. Believe me, it's his site which loses out if I don't link to it, not t'other way around. And with fewer than a thousand visitors a day, he needs all the links he can get.

There's just one thing that Derek might have to explain. Just where, exactly, have I ever said that the use of the word 'golliwog' is acceptable. Not here, and not on the Today Programme. I have indeed tried to explain why the BBC is guilty of hypocrisy and has overreacted, but that is not the same as saying the word is nowadays 'acceptable'.

The 'R' word is a very easy one to throw around as a diversionary tactic. It is totally inappropriate here, and yet again Draper looks a fool.

What a prat. Every day he devalues his site more and more.

So come on Derek, explain your accusation that I have said 'golliwog' is acceptable. It's you who owes me an apology. Not the other way around.

UPDATE: Apparently it is this sentence which Draper has latched onto, which I wrote last night...
The logic of the BBC's argument is that the very mention of the word 'golliwog' is considered racist. Utterly preposterous.

The key words here are "the very mention of the word". So context doesn't matter. It should be a non word, should it? I studied linguistics at university and one thing I did learn is that you cannot "uninvent" words. You can try to ban them, but it never works. You can make them socially unacceptable and that is what has happened with this word. It's a word I don't use either. But the point of my article was that Carol is not racist, something my co-interviewee accepted on Today, and we are told it was a jocular remark. So I completely stand by that sentence. It doesn't mean that I regard the word is acceptable, it just means that I don't agree that every time it is mentioned it implies the person saying it is racist. Otherwise there were an awful lot of racists on the 5 Live Phone In this morning.

184 comments:

canvas said...

Iain, don't say that you weren't warned , you muppet! ;)

You're playing with fire.

Admit that you shouldn't have said what you did. It was wrong of you - and you know it .

Deep down in your heart you must know that you shouldn't have said what you did - it was irresponsible of you, Iain.

hands up time again?

Iain Dale said...

And what is it that I shouldnt have said?

Dick the Prick said...

The horror, the horror!

Dick the Prick said...

Canvas - just for the record - you asked Iain the same question 8 times there.

Lord Elvis of Paisley said...

Fight! Fight! Fight!

Oliver Drew said...

Canvas - when did Iain say "the term gollywog is acceptable" hmmm? Find me the quote.

Second - Draper should know better than to brand someone racist without due cause - I'm sure it is libellous or something like that.

This is just the problem - people nowadays are being branded racist for saying anything - regardless of how it is meant or how it is said.

This is most similar to the Jonathan Ross/Russell Brand saga, with people who did not hear what was said getting on soapboxes and shouting "racist" or "insulting" at anything that moves. It's...well...concerning.

Oh....and I find the term "racist Tories"...chortle chortle....Draper really is desperate.

Tomfiglio said...

Listened to Today, Iain, and nobody bothered to address the points you were making. Has debate in this country really sunk to the level of shouting slogans?

canvas said...

Iain, you shouldn't have said this>

"The logic of the BBC's argument is that the very mention of the word 'golliwog' is considered racist. Utterly preposterous"

David Cameron is going to be so furious with you.

rightly so.

JuliaM said...

"You're playing with fire."

With Draper...?!

More of a damp squib, canvas, I'm afraid... ;)

Praguetory said...

Don't give these PC idiots an inch. The word golliwog is not unacceptable. To use it as an insult is offensive. That doesn't seem to be the case here. No doubt the TV tax bandwagon is growing in the light of this nonsense.

Plato said...

Honestly, indeed what a prat.

And what a cheap nasty stunt to try and generate traffic on spurious moral outrage.

Just listened to the Today segment and think it was well handled on both sides for exactly what this is - a storm in a very small teacup.

I too grew up with Robertson's jam and collected golly badges. I also had a cuddly golly doll - I'm 43.

If I resembled a gollywog then I'm sure I wouldn't like to be name called as one in the same way I would like to look like Chris Moyles either.

The point is that it is massive double standards by the BBC and IMHO APPALLING that this has been fed to the media.

Iain, stick to your guns on this and I have to say this again with feeling Mr Draper WHAT A PRAT.

Iain Dale said...

Canvas, as a liberal minded person I dont see how you can argue with that. Is the word to be banned outright? Should the dolls to which the words refer be renamed as something else?

If the BBC issues an edit saying that the word is banned on their premises, that's one thing. But they haven't. And they shouldn't.

It's not a word I would now use, but I am damned if I am going to have some BBC equalities officer dictating it to me.

stephenni1971 said...

My sympathies for your loss Iain, where will you go now to look at the latest tractor production statistics?

dizzy said...

"The logic of the BBC's argument is that the very mention of the word 'golliwog' is considered racist. Utterly preposterous"

That was the same point that the black interviewee made Canvas.

Tony said...

I imagine that Draper has an audience of 3, two of these being himself.

Draper's just away in la-la land (I nearly used an Irishism but stopped myself just in time in case I might be accused of inappropriate stereotyping).

Letters From A Tory said...

Iain, my condolences.

Being spurned by a man as charming, witty and relevant as Derek Draper must be heartbreaking.

Jonathan Cook said...

Labour should consider withdrawing 'official' support from the Draper blog - he's not right in the head and will embarrass the party (again).

Lobbydog said...

Iain, how do you find out how many visitors LabourList is getting? I want to post on how my blog is getting more hits than his!
In terms of the arguement - there's more sh*t stirring going on here than in a sh*t-eater's kitchen.

The Penguin said...

canvas,

Do you by any chance work for Dolly?

http://therantingkingpenguin.blogspot.com/2009/02/february-prick-of-month-early-contender.html

The Penguin

Dick the Prick said...

Draper's lost the competitive edge.

Tony said...

Iain Dale said; Is the word to be banned outright? Should the dolls to which the words refer be renamed as something else?

I think you might find that most local authority trading standards departments would ask for them to be called 'Golly' now.

TransAtlantic said...

You two deserve each other.

Derek Draper said...

iain,

i have not accused you of racism.

i have accused you of getting this wrong.

you know you have deep down, so get out and make that clear.

you said:

"The logic of the BBC's argument is that the very mention of the word 'golliwog' is considered racist. Utterly preposterous."

in what way does that not mean golliwog is an acceptable term?

iain, i have no reason whatsoever to think you are a racist but you are in danger of defending people and terms that clearly are.

the web and blogging are a fast moving business, when we make a mistake we should accept that.

take this chance to show you really are the nice guy you seem.

with all personal best wishes,

derek

jon dee said...

Derek Draper is not doing himself or his party any favours with his irrational and illogical behaviour.
His accusations against the Taxpayers Alliance and your Today contribution are misguided,incorrect and foolish.
Grow up Mr Draper.You are begining to sound paranoiac and childishly bigotted.

canvas said...

I agree with Derek Draper on this occasion. What Derek Draper is saying is fair and reasonable.

I think Iain appears to be condoning racist language. Using the word golliwog is a racial slur.

It is.

Iain Dale said...

Apparently it is this sentence which Draper has latched onto, which I wrote last night...

2The logic of the BBC's argument is that the very mention of the word 'golliwog' is considered racist. Utterly preposterous."


The key words here are "the very mention of the word". So context doesn't matter. It should be a non word, should it? I studied linguistics at university and one thing I did learn is that you cannot "uninvent" words. You can try to ban them, but it never works. You can make them socially unacceptable and that is what has happened with this word. It's a word I don't use either. But the point of my article was that Carol is not racist, something my co-interviewee accepted on Today, and we are told it was a jocular remark. So I completely stand by that sentence. It doesn't mean that I regard the word is acceptable, it just means that I don't agree that every time it is mentioned it implies the person saying it is racist. Otherwise there were an awful lot of racists on the 5 Live Phone In this morning.

Dave H said...

Government should issue a dictionary of words that we are allowed to use, you know, to help out Oldthinkers.

What a preposterous faux-fuss about nothing. The scandal is that there is a scandal.

Peter said...

You'll have noted that both Draper and canvas have just used the word "golliwog", both having previously said that the mere mention of the word is "unacceptable".

So they both clearly "accept" it.. sometimes, at any rate.

Perhaps it's only acceptable when they use it.

Paul Halsall said...

Hey Iain, I am way way to the left of you ( the political compass thing put with Ghandi, Mandela, the Dalai Lama and the Greens - http://www.politicalcompass.org/printablegraph?ec=-9.12&soc=-6.10 ) but I thought you were reasonable on Today. Unfortunately for Today, so was the other guy!

As for Draper, although I am emotionally an Old Labourite, I will vote purely on civil liberties in the next election, and that means Greens or Lib Dem. The local Tory PPC (Michelle Wiseman/Bury South) is so far right in all areas that I fortunately do not face the awful crisis of having to vote for a Tory.

What I really want to be able to choose is a sort of moderate red/moderate green party - where I think a huge number of people are politically and for whom there is no real political home.

canvas said...

Iain, you are defending Carol's usage of the word. That appears to mean that you condone the use of racist language. Not a good idea.

Dick the Prick said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Daily Referendum said...

I bet a pound to a pinch of shit that most of Draper's visitors are Tories looking to see what crap the tit has posted.

I for one will not be going back, nor will I link to him. This attack on you and on the TPA is nothing but a way to drum up visitors to Labourspissed.

What a frigging cheese!

p.s Picture of Labour's list.

Iain Dale said...

Canvas, with respect, that's not the case at all. but your mind is clearly made up so I won't bother any longer pressing the point.

Barnacle Bill said...

Is this Mr. Draper on any form of medication?
As it does not appear to be working, perhaps his prescription is one of those consignments of fake olanzapine the Beeb was warning us about yesterday.

Savonarola said...

I see Derek is putting on his pyscotheratpist's hat in order to tease a mea culpa out of you.

Advice for Derek. You took a stupid pot at TPA. And here you are again.

Trying to drum up business to increase the current readership of 725. Cheap shot.

On TPA. Why not run an item on Orion Trust to demonstrate your bona fides on Tax EVASION.

On golliwogs. I have always found that they who shout "racist" have something to hide. Check your books on this. Might cause you to question your own motives.

Oldrightie said...

Look behind Dolly's rant. He and his team of teenage clones gloated your blog was mashed. You then bounce back big time. Whoops, screwed up there. He's drunk all the time to drown out the utter failure of Labour to run the proverbial p***s up. In his shoes I think I'd ban you. Then there is his profound jealousy, you had a pally chat with his hero, Prezza Pies!
Lastly, some years back I flew a superb Navajo aereoplane, registration, G-OLLY complete with huge logo on the tail. Sold a lot of jam!

albertmbankment said...

Carol Thatcher made a throwaway comment about a bloke's hair, not the bloke himself. Well, judge for yourselves:
http://www.lexpress.fr/actualites/2/open-d-australie-gael-monfils-passe-aussi_732955.html

I wouldn't say it. You wouldn't say it. Not very clever. Nevertheless, very not racist. Certainly not enough, in my view, for supposed grown-ups to throw a hissy-fit and make unnecessarily public. She wasn't taking a
swipe at his (or his race's) honesty, intelligence, personal hygiene, industry, violence, irresposible fecundity or any other aspect of buttock-brained racial stereotyping.

Derek Draper's bilious and opportunistic comment says far more about him than it does about Iain.

Simon Heffer's Belly Button said...

Iain, Draper is a sneaky, cynical, New Labour win-at-all-costs merchant from the Blair, Brown, Campbell, Mandelson school. That these people leap at the first opportunity to play the race card against a political opponent should come as no surprise. They've been playing that trick with impunity for years. I'm amazed you gave this lot the time of day to begin with. And that includes your new pal Cuddly Johnny Prescott - a bloke I wouldn't trust farther than I could throw him. Wise up.

stephenni1971 said...

Hasn't Derek twigged yet that if it wasn't for other ( mostly Tory ) blogs referring to him his number of visitors would be even less?

Think he might be trying some Jedi mind tricks on you...

...you know you have deep down, so get out and make that clear.

...take this chance to show you really are the nice guy you seem.


Iain, I read your blog because I believe you say what you think, sometimes I agree, sometimes I don't, but I cannot ever say that you are blindly toeing the party line oblivious to the facts - unfortunately the same cannot be said of Mr Drapers site. It churns vacuous articles that leave you where you started with no logical or sensible arguments offered ( see Hazel Blears offer for a perfect example ).

Surely the best thing you could do would be to refrain from any reference to Dolly at all and hit him where it hurts - his visitor stats.

Madasafish said...

I collected Robinsons' Golliwog tokens as a child.
My wife had a real Golliwog puppet.

I assume that mentioning this is racists, we were racist as kids and we are dammed for ever.

Some people live in a world where the odd word means more than reality.

anonaLon said...

Derek Draper is an uneducated, narrow minded, indoctrinated Oik who cannot think for himself. Because "others" think the term golliwog might possibly be racist, he jumps on the bandwagon trying to condemn its use.

In private, he has probably made many, many offensive remarks yet he cannot quite fathom out how or why this fits in with the context of Carol's remark.

When the opposition is as dense as a block of wood, ultimately we should not be concerned.

Ross said...

The [arty behind "British jobs for British workers" is denouncing you for being racially insensitive?

Gareth said...

Iain,

You said: "The logic of the BBC's argument is that the very mention of the word 'golliwog' is considered racist. Utterly preposterous."

Change 'the very' to 'every' and your argument might just get through a few thick skulls.

That is the logic of Dolly Draper and his cronies. Except when they use the term, obviously.



BRITISH CHEESE FOR BRITISH WORKERS!

jon dee said...

Canvas-

Your misguided interpretations of what others say shows the same immaturity and bigotry as manifested by Draper.
Reasonable argument is not possible or worthwhile in this context.

The Penguin said...

Even better now, it's British Jobs For British Graduates.

http://bastardoldholborn.blogspot.com/2009/02/british-jobs-for-british-graduates-new.html

The Penguin

Wrinkled Weasel said...

Canvas, I have refrained from aiming personal abuse at you so far. Don't push me.

Draper was merely waiting for an excuse. He also has no moral authority whatsoever compared to Iain Dale who has it in bucket loads, and believe me, we disagree on many things.

Chris said...

Why do you say 'Canvas, with respect,' Iain? She merits no respect whatever. She is a monomaniac of very little brain. Your appropriate response to her should be my wv: brapr, which, like Canvas, is a pretty good approximation to a fart.

Bugledog said...

I have now listened to the Today programme and read your comments and can only conclude that Draper is trying to get some much needed publicity for his failing blog. What a loser! Don't rise to him Iain....

Philipa said...

Iain why isn't it a word you don't use? Don't you remember the golly on the jam jar? I used to love the Robinsons golly and collected the badges and everything. I liked the jam too, especially in home made rice pudding. But in PC Britain the golly had to go. Why?

My sister and I had a black doll and a white doll and we had a golly; a soft toy that was lovely and snuggly. Nowadays it seems wrong for me to even own this treasured toy but as a child I could see no difference except that one doll was black and one was white. That didn't mean one toy was better than other either way. I liked my golly as it was snuggly.

I had a black relative and a white relative, why shouldn't I have a black doll and a white doll? Why shouldn't I have a golly? Have you ever seen a girl look like the cabbage patch doll? And how demeaning to women is Barbie?

Golly Golly Golly Golly miss molly. A wop bop a loolah a wop bam boo. Thank you I feel so much better now.

Derek Draper's success in Labour speaks volumes.

subrosa said...

Wrinkled Weasel, I'm with you on this one.

Can't we just ignore Derek Draper. He thought he could buy his way into the blogosphere and it's backfired.

Time to change career path Derek.

Zeddy said...

Can someone clear up whether the tennis player she was referring to was black or not?

Alan Douglas said...

I'm worried for Draper - how will he get his site up to his stated 60 million if he has banned you ? More immigration ?

He's a psycho-therapist ? Ha ! Perhaps he has already "healed himself" ?

Alan Douglas

Tim said...

I warn you against taking your case to Draper's site; I suspect you may not get a fair hearing under comments.

You might be subjected to needless personal abuse (possibly from the author himself), and the author may use his position as moderator and host to gain unfair advantage in the discussion (he may even ban you on spurious grounds).

PS - Damian Green groomed my golliwog.

Man in a Shed said...

I'm afraid this is the type of politics typified by New Labour. ( I have no doubt that the Labour party contains a vast majority of decent people, its just not many of them make it to the top any more thanks to The Project ).

My guess is that Canvas is very New Labour.

The irony is that they try to use hate and smears to cover up their policy failures with their base.

Gordon said...

Forgive me as I am relatively new to politics, and although I'm aware that dollymixture used to be "intimately" involved with Labour high-ups, it is only his more recent return that has made me notice him. Could someone explain if he was always this much of an irritating buffoon or has the psychotherapy training turned him that way? At the moment I want to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume his hysterical rantings on various subjects are to try and create a labour-list siege mentality. Unfortunately I think it's far more likely that he's just an obnoxious little twerp

Dave said...

"Has debate in this country really sunk to the level of shouting slogans?"

I'm afraid it ahs when Draper's involved.

BTW. The Beeb keep saying that word on every news bulletin this morning. You know the word- GOLLIWOG.

So tell me- why was Carol Thatcher sacked? Was it because she said it OFF air?

Paul Pinfield said...

Iain, your life is over. Lowercase Dolly has so decreed. Bow down to the master of the blogosphere and do some grovelling...

On the other hand, you could have a nice cup of tea and a biscuit.

canvas said...

Shedman - I am not a member of any political party. I like David Cameron but I'm not sure that I could vote for his party . Terrifying people in it.

David Cameron will be angry with Iain for reminding people of why they disliked the Tories so much. DC had done a brilliant job de-contaminating the brand. This kind of thing is a setback.

This comment below on Labourlist says it all really - that is how people see the Tories and that is what DC has been fighting against. I'm sure DC is completely ashamed of the nasty Tory commenters on this post.

"Iain Dale has no problem accusing others of homophobia, or warning Peter Hitchens not to walk down Old Compton Street.
Do you think if he was black he might feel different about this topic?

I'm not accusing him of being racist, but it's just typical of "I'm alright, Jack" tories to only fight for what's personal to them. You know, rich people wanting tax cuts for the rich, but not caring about support for the poor. It's just the Tory mentality and we're seeing it here from him."
------

I like Iain Dale and I think he can do better.

Oliver Drew said...

Canvas,

I do not think that anyone is saying that any use of the world is not racist, merely that every use of the word is not.

Like I said on another post - this has gone from reasonable debate to total hysteria...unbelievable.

Old Holborn said...

Oi, Draper, you Hoon

You are not elected so stop pretending you have any power.

You don't. Your blog gets less visitors than the Brixton Family Planning Clinic.

http://www.webvaluer.org/us/www.labourlist.org

Daniel1979 said...

When the word "Racist" is used, it shuts down the debate, it does not add to it.

Look at the short history of LabourList, do they aspire to contribute and enhance debate or do they seek to bully those who dare to disagree?

I cannot see that LabourList has, or will add anything of value to the Blogosphere, I suggest everyone just stops linking to it and see which way their traffic goes. As soon as the traffic dries up, Gordon will probably feel compelled to nationalise it, and will then appoint someone else to administer it.

I suspect JP is getting more hits already. I never linked it; make your policy to never link to "BETA" blogs.

I think the Labour plan is to leave LL's administrator to running around the country generally looking like a loony, makes Mr Brown look more reasonable by comparison doesn't it.

You should feel proud Iain, you are possibly the only person in the world to have been banned from a BETA site… another first. (now 26 random things about Iain Dale).

an ex-apprentice said...

Dear Mr Dale,

I can only repeat what I said yesterday:

This is clearly just a new strategy by Draper to try to drum up some interest - go around picking trumped up fights with people, publicise it and hope for more visits. He's a desperate man.
I see Trevor Kavanagh gave him short shrift when he tried a similar tactic.
Mark Wallace should resist the temptation to soil his hands. Don't dignify this idiot with a reply.
Let Draper put what he likes on his site, it doesn't matter, nobody reads it!

February 03, 2009 7:14 PM

The more you engage with Draper, the more you pander to his purpose.

He is worthy only of being ignored. Let Draper, and his pathetic site, wither on the vine of irrelevance.

Zeddy said...

Canvas speaks a lot of sense there. Exactly how crassly insensitive (or how pissed out of one's mind) does one have to be not to be aware that comparing someone to a golliwog is seen as offensive by many?

Iain's logical acrobatics to excuse Carol Thatcher here smack of his ability to turn a blind eye to David Davis' voting record on gay rights.

Personally, the less we see or hear of Carol Thatcher, the better. Here's a woman who is famous and gets jobs in the media based only on the fact that she is her mother's daughter.

Those ridiculously strangulated vowels, would-be-hilarious references to her mother's handbag and look-how-outrageously-outspoken-I-can-be comments have been an embarrassment for far too long.

People who speak lovingly of golliwogs as perfectly innocent aspects of a golden age remind me of those who lament the passing of the golden age when one could use a word like "gay" before those nasty homos misappropriated it, and those who lament the passing of the Empire.

When Peter Hitchens charicatures gayers as being too ready to take public offence at what he, in his cosily safe hetero (one presumes) existence, sees as minor slights, then Iain lays into him. Yet he defends CT on the grounds of the BBC being too PC.

Old Holborn said...

Zeddy

You must live a very complicated life. More than most poofs, I'd say.

Zeddy said...

By the way, Iain, you should be more careful with La Draper. Don't you know that he has the ear of everyone who was anyone in 1997?

tom said...

Iain,

Derek draper is clearly a pretty sad and pathetic individual who's chippy socialist persona epitomises everything I dispise about labour and its supporters.

These kind of cheap, nasty, ad-hominem remarks (if your reading, look it up in a dictionary Derek) are typical of all those on the political left who cannot engage in mature and rational debate.

Derek, You make me ashamed to be a northerner. Grow up and get a life you muppet...

JuliaM said...

"This comment below on Labourlist says it all really - that is how people see the Tories..."

No, it's how some of the minor fish that swim in the tiny, tiny puddle that is 'LabourList' see 'Tories'.

Or, indeed, anyone who is the curent enemy of the day.

But it's not 'people'. Not even close...

Zeddy said...

Old Holborn, sweetie-pie, it's just that my principles are a little more complicated than: everyone on my side is right, everyone on the other side is wrong.

I think that CT deserves to lose her job not on the grounds that her golliwog remark shows her to be racist but on the grounds that it shows her to be stupid.

It's like when whatshername lost her job over the Chinese cockle-pickers in Morecambe Bay joke. Yes, it was a joke that most people had already heard and maybe repeated. But the fact that she imagined that it was wise to repeat it in public showed her to be the sort of person so detached from reality as to be too dumb to be trusted with a responsible job.

John said...

Naff off Dolly you tosser.

You really have no intention of even pretending not to be a complete and utter t**t do you?

Pathetic.

Devil's Kitchen said...

Dear Derek,

The following line really irritated the hell out of me.

"the web and blogging are a fast moving business, when we make a mistake we should accept that."

You patronising twerp. I don't see why those of us who have been at this for years should be lectured at by a dishonest, tedious, Johnny-come-lately like you, frankly.

This, coupled with your bizarre and threatening phone call to the TPA, makes me seriously fear for your mental health.

Take the lithium, sit down and shut up.

DK

P.S. Word verification: swearo. No, seriously.

John M Ward said...

Draper is potentially one of the best advertisements for Labour as being complete "out of it" as far as the real world is concerned. Only potentially, as his impact is minimal, so very few of the voting British public know of him and his behavioural issues.

It would be worth someone's while keeping a record of all of this kind of stuff, to form part of a dossier on Labour's online (and other) "leading lights" to be deployed at a suitable future date.

Oh, and Tessa Jowell on today's "Daily Politics" fared little better, struggling to handle the most obvious and expected questions from Brillo. Talk about desperation personified…

Victor, NW Kent said...

Iain

Why do you want Derek Draper's bog roll in the first place?

Richard Abbot said...

You are giving Draper the oxygen of publicity, again. Don't link to him, don't debate him, don't comment on him, pretend as if he doesn't exist, because after the next election that might as well be true.
It's not censorship, its sensible. I don't come to your blog to hear about Draper. You can't win against him, he will employ the power of NLP and the English language to say that black is white. Unfortunate example but you get the jist.
Incidentally, NLP stands for Neuro-Linguistic Programming, although many think it stands for Nasty Little People.

The Beast Of Clerkenwell said...

Iain
Is the term "Fat unshaven Hoon" acceptable?
I think it could probably be applied to the lonely Mr Draper.
A man whose blog receives less visits than his local branch of Threshers gets from his good self.
750 a day?
I didnt realise that the Labour party was so popular.

Conand said...

Draper seems to be saying you can't ever mention the word 'golliwog' regardless of context.

But he does do exactly that on his blog:

'Iain Dale has defended Carol Thatcher and the use of the word "Golliwog"'

All I can say is:

'Now look, no one is to stone anyone until I blow this whistle. Do you understand? Even, and I want to make this absolutely clear, even if they do say Jehovah.'

an ex-apprentice said...

Dear Ms Canvas,

Your leap to condemn is as predictable as it is pathetic.

Political correctness seems to have replaced the class system in this country. It is the method by which people like you attempt to show their presumed superiority over others.

For idiots like you, who combine intellectual arrogance with unbelievable naivete, it is the opportunity, to be grabbed with both hands, to demonstrate the extent of your supposed moral superiority over we mere mortals.

The knee-jerk urge to jump on this bandwagon is usually indicative of an ineffectual sort of character who suffers from feelings of underachievement in their daily lives, together with an all too justifiable sense of inferiority.

Take your sanctimonious, holier than thou, nose-in-the-air claptrap elsewhere.

The person you should be railing at is the s**t stirring coward who, rather than taking the matter up with Carol Thatcher there and then, preferred to creep away and sneak behind her back.

I hope the identity of this person becomes known, because they will thoroughly deserve all the notoriety they receive.

Tuscan Tony said...

Well said, Iain. We must remember though that the world would be a much less amusing and diverting place without the likes of Mr Draper and his alleged blog.

anonaLon said...

Canvas, are you derek draper or someone very closely associated with him? because i can't believe that there is someone else out there as stupid as derek.

Phil BC said...

"My blog won't be able to survive without the thirty visitors LabourList has sent its way. Believe me, it's his site which loses out if I don't link to it, not t'other way around. And with fewer than a thousand visitors a day, he needs all the links he can get."

Well if there's a gap on your blogroll where Labourlist should be, I wouldn't mind stepping into its shoes ;)

Iain Dale said...

Victor NW Kent, I never asked to be on in the first place and can't say I care one way or another about it.

Iain Dale said...

Richard, I agree with you. I genuinely wished his project well when he started, but I am afraid it is a disaster.

I may not be able to resist mentioning it in the future, but I certainly shan't be linking to him unless he changes his ways.

No one accuses me of condoning racism and gets away with it.

tom said...

Iain,

Draper may serve the purpose of another left wing idiot for conservatives and libertarians to mock. Come on! We all love to tear into the economic illiteracy and monstrous hypocrisy of figures such as Polly Toynbee. Its the intellectual equivelant of shooting fish in a barrel. Easy, but so much fun!

John said...

@Iain Dale
"I may not be able to resist mentioning it in the future"

Please don't even try and resist. Dolly's stupid, ill concieved, half measured activities are a constant source of amusement. Please continue pointing them out wherever you see them :)

Rightwinggit said...

Silly question, but could it not be said that giving a white kid a black doll is promoting racial harmony?

Get 'em while they're young, etc?

Mostly Ordinary said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Philipa said...

Zeddy - I speak lovingly of golliwogs in my original comment here, in response to Iain's observation that the word 'golliwog' is seemingly banned from use. He said he didn't use it either and I asked why? Surely context matters.

I don't now enough about the conversation Carol Thatcher had or her use of the word to comment - I wasn't there and there is no recording advertised; it's hearsay. But your condemnation of her because of her accent and parentage doesn't bode well for your principles, though they are "more complicated", whatever that means. Presumably it's ok by you to be prejudiced against someone for their vowels but not for their sexuality? Do tell.

Idle Pen Pusher said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Grim Reaper said...

I just feel sorry for Kate Garraway. How the hell does she put up with such a hoon of a man?

The Beast Of Clerkenwell said...

Dolly Draper said..
the web and blogging are a fast moving business, when we make a mistake we should accept that.
Well it is for some of us, for you sweety(sweaty) it seems to be a slow crawl to nowhere.

Plato said...

Oh Iain, please don't go all Indiesque 'we don't do royal stories' over that numpty Mr Draper.

The more self-deluded, bullying, superior form of life twaddle that he pens the better as far as I can see:

1. It's hilarious
2. He pops up completely at random
3. Every fight he picks, he loses
4. 99.999% of his readers think he's a pillock
5. He's the story - a fatal condition as diagnosed by Mr A Campbell
6. His website still has until next week in BETA phase so can't wait to see the real thing!
7. His behaviour is so weird that I assume initial reports of each blog-crime are parody sock-puppetry until yet again they prove true
8. He uses an ID photo from about 10 yrs ago - now that is sad
9. Even Guardanistas take the pee about his site
10. and finally, the contributions from your readers about Labourlist (another Google hit here please) are some of the funniest around and makes up for his alter ego 'canvas' :)

I just can't believe that he can't see what a berk he is and that after all the negative feedback that he's received, that he's still provoking more.

I know the oxygen of publicity is addictive, but shurely shomone should tell him to...

Elby the Beserk said...

He's a larf, our Dolly, isn't he? It would seem he is intent on turning LabourZZZZ into a version of the Daily Star; his headlines get increasingly hysterical.

@Plato - the other tribute to the man's undeniable powers is that LabourZZZZ was re-generated as Labourist, without censorship of opposing views, piss artists and general Dolly loathers.

Why may account for their desperately low hit rate. The site is utterly boring. Regardless of Draper's ego.

Elby the Beserk said...

Gosh, Iain - apparently Dolly can read your mind


you know you have deep down, so get out and make that clear.


Whatever next?

Draper. For God's sake man, have you nothing better to do with your time? Get yourself a life, for heaven's sake. Before it is too late, and you get merged into the great GordoHive that will encompass all as he saves not only the world, but the entire universe.

Lady Finchley said...

Canvas- will you get a life, you one trick pony? Derek Draper? Playing with fire? I am sure Iain is quivering in his size 10's.

King Athelstan said...

This is pathetic, all we need is a statement fron McBroon, codemning the tories for "racist" remarks by the daughter of a former tory leader here to round the entire farce off.
So the implication is that if I use the sentence " When I was a child I had a golliwog." is somehow racist? if it isn't then Iain is correct in what He said, also Canvas and Dolly himself have used the word on this thread.
Playing with fire? Dolly Draper? look out for that vicious sheep.
It could have been worse, he might have called Him english!

Spartan said...

What a pathetic litlle country we've become. Now we are offended by just words ... but only words that can offend the ethnic minorities mind. It seems perfectly ok to call the white population honkys, snowflake, nazis etc etc but there again the majority of citizens seem to cope with that quite well. Maybe it's because we remember what we are told as children ... 'sticks and stones can break my bones but words will never hurt me'

For me, you can shove this PC in a black hole. Mmmm is that racist?

Could 'regina'be racist? ... seems harmless but reversed could become racist and imply being 'backward' too. ;-)

Gregg said...

Iain - During Sachsgate, you attacked the BBC for failing to take swift action, especially in this era of 24-hour media. Now, you have attacked the BBC for taking swift action. If it hadn't taken action against Thatcher, then when this story eventually leaked (and we all know it would have), the BBC would have again been savaged for failing to act. Her sacking may be an over-reaction (though some sanction was certainly warranted) but it is one bred by the media campaign against the BBC, a bandwagon you have jumped on from time to time. It's you, not the Beeb, that's guilty of hypocrisy.

Brand and Ross apologised, in writing and repeatedly on camera, for what they did. They showed contrition, accepted that what they had done was wrong, and Ross made it clear that he would use better judgment in the future. Thatcher has refused to apologise. She has stated that the comment was humourous and that she can't understand why anyone took offence. It is her egotistical refusal to apologise or even accept the inherent offence in her use of a racial epithet, that has cost her her job.

And Derek Draper is right. By defending Thatcher, you disgrace yourself. The word was clearly racist in context. It is acceptable to use the word "golliwog" to refer to the old dolls, just as it is acceptable to use the word "Shylock" to refer to the theatrical character. But would you be so defend Thatcher is she had "jokingly" said a Jewish person looks like Shylock? I don't think so.

Lady Finchley said...

Gregg, why don't you, Canvas and Zeddy take a flying leap?

Madasafish said...

I think it is about time all Government finance was removed from the Race Relations Industry.

Why?
Well its work is done. Everyman and his dog is so sensitive about race, we don't need them any more.
Job done.

basementcat said...

Wasn't she referring to Andy Murray's hair - for which golliwog would be entirely appropriate? I remember the Robinson's Jam jars. I remember the 'fro. It fits. And they only got pulled off the jars in a fit of PC pique a few years ago.

More to the point, what shall I now call the Golliwog's Cakewalk?

killemallletgodsortemout said...

'Iain Dale has defended Carol Thatcher and the use of the word "Golliwog"'

There.

The hoon Draper said it first.

Golliwogs exist. They can be bought in toyshops. I have one in my study. My question is this. If the bloke to whom Thatcher was referring looked like a golliwog, what's wrong with saying it?

Have new labour and the BBC banned the word?

Vindico said...

Iain, thought you might like this...http://vindicovindico.blogspot.com/2009/02/derek-draper-is-cock.html

Direct link to game here http://www.playmygame.com/game/v8safvw

trevorsden said...

Canvas you are a pathetic ignorant pillock.

I say that because it as clear day that what he said did not condone racism.

WHO condones racism??

Huh? Well?

Have you ever stopped to think about that?

Your own knee-jerk reaction is exactly the same as the racists you condemn.

Rest assured I shall be ignoring The One Show and Childs from now on.

Lucky lucky Jane Garvy - free at last.

G Eagle said...

Sehr geEhrter Iain

Es tut mir weh

It's the Shame

- not to be banned by Herr Draper

Am I really such a Bad Person !!??


Alles Gute

Your obedient Dienster usw

G Eagle

wv = aspit

Is Miss W-Verification telling us something

John said...

Iain, LabourList have yet another blog post on you: http://www.labourlist.org/labour-list-mark-day-iain_dale_doublespeak

I particularly enjoyed this bit: "Quite a spat seems to be brewing between stalwarts of the political blogosphere Derek Draper and Iain Dale"

Just when did Dolly become "a stalwart of the political blogosphere"? He's a boil on it's arse at best.

Unsworth said...

@ Canvas

"I like Iain Dale and I think he can do better"

A. Patronising bollocks.

B. Do you think he - or anyone else - reciprocates or even gives a shit?

C. More importantly, can you do any better?

Jonathan Cook said...

Iain,

I can't believe it........ they are using a new angle to infer you a racist over on LabourPissed.


http://www.labourlist.org/labour-list-mark-day-iain_dale_doublespeak


.....do Labour really want to be associated with this bunch of cretins?

an ex-apprentice said...

Ms Canvas has gone very quiet.

Welcome mind, but was it something we said?

canvas said...

There's no point in shooting the messenger.

;)

Nasty personal attacks won't change anything.

trevor , I don't think anyone said Iain condoned racism, just the use of racist language.

Unsworth, point taken but I actually meant it. I do like Iain and I think this is a low point in his blogging career.

It's only my opinion and like you say who cares about my opinion?

I might not care about what you have to say either - but then again - I might do.

canvas said...

ex-apprentice - are you promoting bullying? Is that the Tory way.

:)

grow up.

Andrew said...

Iain, I was visiting friends in Leeds recently and was slightly surprised(in these PC days) to see golliwogs for sale at the City Centre Market.
Had I wanted to buy one, presumably I would have had to point to one but not mention the dreaded name?

Dennis said...

There is no longer any freedom of speech in England.

Freedom of speech is the essential and most basic of liberties. Without it, we are done for.

Who are these self-appointed upstarts who decide which words are and which words are not taboo? Ah yes, in this case, the BBC, an organization which depends for its survival on demanding money with menaces.

I checked the fast-growing anti-BBC group on Facebook today. Some 330,000 people there have already pledged to withhold their telly tax -- a total of £46,035,000.

That rather makes me wish I had a TV set, so that I could withhold my telly tax also.

Carol Thatcher should sue for wrongful dismissal: now that would make for an interesting case.

no longer anonymous said...

I bet over 50% of the people in this country couldn't give a toss about the use of the word golliwog. Only a loud minority of people get worked up about this sort of thing.

JuliaM said...

"Had I wanted to buy one, presumably I would have had to point to one but not mention the dreaded name?"

And don't ask for a receipt, whatever you do! ;)

an ex-apprentice said...

Dear Ms Canvas,

"ex-apprentice - are you promoting bullying? Is that the Tory way."

In your case no, you'd only cry and say it wasn't fair.

But ridicule and richly deserved condemnation, together with a smattering of contempt and just a pinch of pity?

Absolutely YES!

JuliaM said...

"Iain - During Sachsgate, you attacked the BBC for failing to take swift action, especially in this era of 24-hour media. Now, you have attacked the BBC for taking swift action."

You do know, Gregg (love your pies and sausage rolls, btw..), that these two incidents aren't actually similar...?

Back to the bakehouse for you!

John said...

@Dennis
"There is no longer any freedom of speech in England."

Yeah, because there is no more to the UK than "England".

Thankfully, the majority aren't quite as ignorant as yourself, and when talking about an issue that effects the whole of the British isles, like "freedom of speech" does, have the decency to refer to "Britain" or the "UK".

JuliaM said...

"What a pathetic litlle country we've become."

No, Spartan, the usual suspects here, bleating and whining, would like us to think it so.

But as 'no longer anonymous' points out, no-one really cares what CT said, or what the likes of dim troublemakers like Canvas, Draper and Gregg say about it.

That's what winds them up to such a pich of frienzied indignation - the fact that their views don't hold sway with the vast majority. And the more they air them, the more true that becomes... :)

I hate Vista said...

Well done Iain I suspect you've got more comments from one post than Drapers got on his whole site.
Canvas, gollywog, gollywog, gollywog,
gollywog, gollywog, gollywog, a toy I had, when I was a child anything else is in your mind not mine. I suggest you get therapy for it.
ex-apprentice well said sir.

Plato said...

For more light entertainment - try this Labour 2.0 event site:

http://www.progressives.org.uk/Events/event.asp?e=1399

Mr Draper will be sharing his expertise with all present. I see Iain that you are down to share a late slot (oh err) with the man himself.

"While the real analysis of the reasons for Obama’s victory has yet to be completed, it is obvious that e-campaigning played a major role and that its importance will continue to increase. As the main political parties gear up for the next general election, the focus on internet campaigning will intensify.

To what extent has the Labour party understood the potential of this new campaigning medium?
How can the centre-left use it to mobilise ordinary voters to campaign for progressive causes?
And what steps need to be taken to pull the party into the ‘net generation’?

We hope to find answers to these questions and more at this special one day conference, which will bring together over 100 members of the left blogosphere, net-savvy Labour parliamentarians, councillors, organisers and others from the Labour movement who have an interest in e-campaigning and using the net to build a better democracy.

Book your place online now


AGENDA....

16:45
Close of conference debate:
Can the centre-left dominate the internet despite being in office?
James Crabtree, Senior Editor, Prospect
Iain Dale
Derek Draper

Simon Gardner said...

Oliver Drew said... “Oh....and I find the term "racist Tories"...”

Isn’t that code for Michael Howard?

Simon Gardner said...

Iain Dale said... “Should the dolls to which the words refer be renamed as something else?”

I think they were. Hence Golli or Goli.

Oliver Drew said...

@Simon Gardner - I don't know what you mean.

Never considered Michael Howard a racist myself. Perhaps, rather than making unsubstantiated allegations against someone who probably doesn't read the blog and have the opportunity to respond, you would care to provide some proof?

Simon Gardner said...

Iain Dale said... “Otherwise there were an awful lot of racists on the 5 Live Phone In this morning.”

Well there’s a first.

Not.

Oliver Drew said...

@Plato - I love that terminology - "can the centre-left dominate the internet" [paraphrase]

Says it all really doesn't it!

Dennis said...

@John 5.48 -- very well, since my slip of the keyboard seemed to upset you so much. I assume you do not live in England, which is, after all, the country that gave rise to Magna Carta and spread its blessings to the rest of these islands.

BTW, if my orthography were as poor as yours, I should be careful about whom I criticized for ignorance.

Simon Gardner said...

Dennis said... “There is no longer any freedom of speech in England.”

Is that why I would get censored if I called all ******s, *********s, ***s etc a bunch of unhinged god-bothering, deluded *****s? As is my wont.

Oliver Drew said...

There is freedom of speech - you can say what you want. But equally there are responsibilities that come with that freedom.

Oh and Simon...any evidence on Michael Howard yet - or have you decided to retract the accusation of racism?

Simon Gardner said...

Oliver Drew said... “I don't know what you mean. Never considered Michael Howard a racist myself.”

Of course you didn’t. At every single GE that he took part in Howard [spit] invariably and reliably ‘played the race card’ a few days before polling day (regular as clockwork) - which was doubly disgusting in view of his family background. (My family is from not dissimilar background and it used to distress my mother enormously.)

His behaviour was utterly revolting.

Oliver Drew said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
John said...

@Dennis

Nah, a typo is a slip of the keyboard. Referring to "England" alone when dealing with issues that effect the whole of the UK is just plane ignorant.

As for the usual nonsense rhetoric about England being the centre of the universe, well, i'll just leave you to your blind, uneducated nationalism on that one.

Toodles x

Oliver Drew said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
I hate Red Ken and Fatty Brown said...

Draper is a tosspot anyway Iain. And I can't stand his wife.

Oliver Drew said...

(I will get this post right the third time of asking...why can't I edit my comments Iain - or is this not possible on blogger?)

Simon,

As I'm only 23 I will plead ignorance of the elections pre-2001 if that's ok as I was a tad too young for politics before then!

Don't think he was that involved in the '01 election so that leaves '05.

As I recall he did indeed base a lot of his election strategy around the need for limits on immigration from outside the EU and for better policing of our borders to help reduce illegal immigration. I also recall I think, that he wanted to limit the number of asylum seekers we would take as well?

Whilst I'm not entirely a fan of the proposals - I really wanted a points system instead and, whilst not a limit on asylum (because we should help people if possible) but better policing of the system...I didn't recall anything that was particularly racist about it. Perhaps I'm mistaken and you could explain why it is/was?

an ex-apprentice said...

Dear Mr? Gardner,

"Oliver Drew said... “Oh....and I find the term "racist Tories"...”
Isn’t that code for Michael Howard"

You do lurve calling people names, don't you?

I assume you call Michael Howard racist because he advocated adequate control of our own borders and controlled immigration. I'm sorry to see that this upset your poor mother so much; clearly she has a lot to put up with.

Perhaps you could just tell us why you, and your sainted mum, consider this to be in any way "racist"?

JuliaM said...

"I will get this post right the third time of asking...why can't I edit my comments Iain - or is this not possible on blogger?"

Use the 'Preview' option, Oliver. It allows you to see what the post will look like, and thn alter any errors.

"As I recall he did indeed base a lot of his election strategy around the need for limits on immigration from outside the EU..."

I don't think he ever said 'British jobs for British workers' though. So he had that going for him.. ;)

Oliver Drew said...

JuliaM - Fair point. Lesson learned, thanks for pointing that out [looks embarrased].

And no you're right - British Jobs for British Workers is the dual property of Nu Labour and the BNP

Simon Gardner said...

Oliver Drew said... “I didn't recall anything that was particularly racist...”

If you are so young then you missed Howard in his heyday when he was the henchman. There was always his carefully crafted “If you are racist you should vote for us” speech. It was always carefully timed and always reliable.

Disgusting.

Oliver Drew said...

Simon,

I am indeed "that young" and missed Howard in his "something of the night about him" heyday - but I've being trying to find something on Youtube and failed - have you something specific you can point me at? - I'm just not willing to accept your allegation until I've seen/heard/read something for myself.

canvas said...

Iain said:

"Personally, it is not a word I would use, but to taint Carol as a racist for using a word in a non racist way is unforgiveable. She was saying a white tennis player's hair looked like a golliwog's. That is not racist."

So, apparently>

"Carol Thatcher was dropped by the BBC for making a 'golliwog' remark about French tennis player Jo-Wilfried Tsonga, according to insiders at The One Show."

Fans have long pointed out his resemblance to boxer Muhammad Ali. He was marked out as a promising talent when he won the US Open junior title in 2003, only for injury to put him out of the game for the next two years.

He is mixed race, born in Le Mans to a white French mother, Evelyne, and a black Congolese father, Didier.


Does that information change your opinion of this matter, Iain?

just curious...

an ex-apprentice said...

Dear Ms Canvas,

Curiosity killed the cat!

Why are you so keen to pin the label of "racist" on Carol Thatcher?

Why such tedious determination?

Is this really about her, or about you?

Barnacle Bill said...

Canvas - you are one of Dolly's marmalades, and I claim my £5.

Unsworth said...

Why stop at the Race Game? Anyone care to comment on Chauvinism? Is that equally disturbing for those here who are currently getting wound-up about 'racism'?

What about The French, then? And why are all these Italians coming over here taking our jobs, and inflicting their horrible pizzas and pastas on us? And what about the Germans invading our country with all their cars and hamburgers and frankfurters - let alone the Swiss and their cuckoo-clocks. And that's just to name but a few of these bleeding foreigners.

Bastards, the lot of them.

Simon Gardner said...

Oliver Drew said... “I've being trying to find something on Youtube and failed...”

It’s most improbable that any of Michael Howard’s GE “If-you-are-racist-you-should-vote-for-us” speeches would have been preserved on Youtube. Notwithstanding, he invariably made one. It was usually within a few days of polling day.

Oliver Drew said...

Simon - You are probably right. You can find all sorts of interesting political stuff on Youtube though...just in this case not what I was looking for...never mind.

Grim Reaper said...

Anyone fancy taking bets on who Dolly Draper will be shamelessly having a pop at tomorrow?

justsurfing said...

Draper is all bluster - he believes that ordinary rules just don't apply to people like him, so he tries to bully and threaten to get his own way. Witness his obnoxious behaviour with the TPA and his attempts to smear you as having made a racist remark. Witness also his blatant breach of planning regulations in putting an extra floor on his house without proper planning consent - eventually he had to amend the design. One day he'll grow up - probably needs a decent psychotherapist.

Jabba the Cat said...

@ Oliver Drew said...

"There is freedom of speech - you can say what you want. But equally there are responsibilities that come with that freedom."


That is censorship and not free speech. Free speech means accepting the whole spectrum of the commonly defined good and bad. A tolerant and stable democracy can handle the extremes, sadly that is currently not the case here in the UK as we cower in the oppressive shadow of political correctness and Islamofascist appeasement.

JuliaM said...

"There is freedom of speech - you can say what you want. But equally there are responsibilities that come with that freedom."

And that's a two-way street. As the BBC are now finding out:

"Of the several hundred calls to the BBC over the Thatcher incident, most were in support of her. "

Vienna Woods said...

Dear Heavens, this PC thing is totally out of control in the UK. When I tell friends of mine here in Vienna about words and images, such as "Golliwog" being more or less outlawed, they fall about laughing.

Out here the "Schwarzkopf" company show a black profile as their logo and the Julius Meinl Grocery/Coffee chain use something similar. Either case is not regarded as offensive and I would imagine that if anybody claimed so they would be given short shrift.

Simon Gardner said...

Vienna Woods said... “...this PC thing is totally out of control in the UK. When I tell friends of mine here in Vienna...”

Yeah right, Austria’s really renowned for dealing well with a multicultural society and coming to terms with its historical racist horrors.

Vienna Woods said...

Simon Gardner wrote,

Yeah right, Austria’s really renowned for dealing well with a multicultural society and coming to terms with its historical racist horrors.

Trouble with people like you, you are always living in the past. For your information, Austria has, percentage wise, provided more shelter for the "Fl├╝chtlinger" than any other country in Europe during the last 30 years. I don't make any excuse for past behaviour, but change the bloody record, it's boring!

Simon Gardner said...

Vienna Woods said... “I don't make any excuse for past behaviour, but change the bloody record, it's boring!”

Trouble is, most Austrians still believe they were victims of the Nazi horror rather than the keen participants they actually were. The Germans on the other hand have made peace and acknowledged. Until Austrians do the same, there can be no laying aside of the recent past because Austrians continue to deny it.

And don’t even get me started on Heider-ism and the other popular flourishing Austrian fascist enthusiasms.

JuliaM said...

No, you'd better not get him started, Vienna.

Who knows how long he could go on for...? ;)

Unsworth said...

@ JuliaM

"Who knows how long he could go on for...? ;)"

Far too long - and far too repetitively.

Chalcedon said...

A golliwog is a soft child's toy. it is in no way racist. Neither is the word. If anyone says 'he looks like a golliwog' I expect the individual will have unruly, sticking up hair. That's it.

All of you saying it's racist would probably blanche at the use of the word niggardly too. Get over yourselves!

Magical_Mist said...

The only conclusion I have made from following this story in the "blogosphere" is that Draper is a complete cock.
If you're reading this: Stop using the same old Labour attack line of accusing someone of being a racist or, slightly more advanced but in no way better, condoning racist language. You're making yourself look absolutely ridiculous and frankly you're little more than a joke.
You also badly need a decent haircut.

Simon Gardner said...

Chalcedon said... “A golliwog is a soft child's toy. it is in no way racist. Neither is the word.”

Depending on how it is used, the word has been rightly considered racist for many years. You are misinformed.

Unsworth said...

@ Simon Gardner

"the word has been rightly considered racist for many years"

By whom? And on what basis?

And what's your position on the word 'spade'?

JuliaM said...

"Depending on how it is used, the word has been rightly considered racist for many years. You are misinformed."

You never seem to consider, despite the overwhelming evidence in this thread and in the public backlash against the BBC, that it is you who is out of touch, and misinformed, on this matter, do you?

Simon Gardner said...

Unsworth said... “"the word has been rightly considered racist for many years" By whom? And on what basis?”

By society generally; by national consensus (obviously not including you - but you can’t have everything).

I can only tell you what current usage of the language is. I can do no more.

Simon Gardner said...

JuliaM said... “You never seem to consider, despite the overwhelming evidence in this thread...”

Evidence? A bunch of fringe, self-selecting largely very right-wing loons with their own agenda. You betcha.

JuliaM said...

You missed out the bit about the complaints to the BBC.

Guess they are all 'right wing' too?

It seems in Simple Simon's world 'right wing' = 'doesn't agree with me'

JuliaM said...

"By society generally; by national consensus "

Where can I check this 'national consensus', Simon? Is there a website, or a news report?

Not that I don't believe you or think you maybe don't speak for anyone but yourself, perish the thought, it's just that I think maybe you aren't as 'in touch' as you profess to be.. ;)

Idle Pen Pusher said...

"And what's your position on the word 'spade'?"

Best to stick to shovel

Unsworth said...

@ Simon Gardner

"I can only tell you what current usage of the language is. I can do no more."

Rubbish. Evidence?

You might say - or even think - it is so, but you'll have to do a whole lot better than that.

'Current usage' my arse. How many decent scientific surveys have there been which ask the public what they mean by the word 'golliwog'? Do you know of any?

Unsworth said...

@ Idle Pen Pusher

The only thing a shovel is good for is moving the crap. Try that with a spade....

Simon Gardner said...

Unsworth said... “'Current usage' my arse.”

Quelle surprise. I am shocked. Shocked I tell you.*

As I said, I can only tell you what present day mores are. I can tell you current usage. It comes as no great surprise to anyone that you don’t want to know. I’d expect no less.

*(c) Casablanca

Simon Gardner said...

JuliaM said... “Where can I check this 'national consensus'?”

Either you’ve got or you haven’t. Either you are capable of observing or you aren’t. I guess in your case, you aren’t. I’m sure you won’t lose any sleep over it.

Unsworth said...

@ Simon Gardner

"I can only tell you what present day mores are. I can tell you current usage."

Garbage. You're merely repeating your assertions without providing any evidence for your opinion.

"It comes as no great surprise to anyone that you don’t want to know"

No. Actually I really really do want to know what your evidence is. What I certainly don't want to know is the same old repetitious evidence-free bollocks that you keep spouting. Put up or shut up.

Oh, and 'mores'? Do you know what they are?

Simon Gardner said...

Unsworth said... “"I can only tell you what present day mores are. I can tell you current usage." Garbage.”

Suit yourself. No doubt you will get dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century* eventually. Or not - as the case may be.


*Or even the late 20th

JuliaM said...

"Either you’ve got or you haven’t. Either you are capable of observing or you aren’t."

60 people complained to the BBC abour Carol Thatcher.

2200 (so far) have complained to the BBC over their treatment of Carol Thatcher.

Who's losing sleep now? Who needs to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century, instead of residing in your 70's polytechnic sociology course?

;)

Simon Gardner said...

JuliaM said... “2200 (so far) have complained to the BBC over their treatment of Carol Thatcher.”

Wow on several counts:

(1) (A few) people complain; the majority rarely compliment
(2) More to the point, it’s still irrelevant as to whether the word is considered (in context) racist.

In Britain, it’s been considered racist for years and years.

I’m sorry for you that you want to rail against this fact (since you are on a hiding to nothing), but nevertheless it remains a fact.

JuliaM said...

"More to the point, it’s still irrelevant..."

Translation: *with finges firmly stuck into ears* 'La la la I'm not listening la la...'

"I’m sorry for you that you want to rail against this fact (since you are on a hiding to nothing), but nevertheless it remains a fact."

Sadly, dear boy, saying something is a fact doesn't make it so. I guess the educational system in this country really isn't working, if it turns out people who so passionately believe that to be the case...

;)

Unsworth said...

@ Simon Gardner

So, constant re-assertion but no ability whatsoever to provide source or evidence for your statements. No change there.

Actually if the 20th and 21st Centuries are what they seem to be - that is, full of loony nutters who declare certain words to be 'unacceptable' or 'racist' - I'd rather live in the 16th Century. At least then one could call a spade a spade without having to deal with the gibbering idiots who spend their time complaining about one's choice of term.

The point in all of this is that these erstwhile control freaks believe, crassly, that they can change people's attitudes by controlling their language. That is complete Orwellian cock. Those who do so should take a look at the use of language, and liguistics, since the 16th Century, and how the language police have abyssmally failed in their mission to control our thoughts.

Simon Gardner said...

Unsworth said... “The point in all of this is that these erstwhile control freaks believe, crassly, that they can change people's attitudes...”

Nobody (least of all me) is trying to “change people's attitudes”. I’m merely dispassionately reporting to you what those attitudes now are. (Obviously excluding you.)

JuliaM said...

"I’m merely dispassionately reporting to you what those attitudes now are."

Yet singularly failing, when challenged, to prove that attitudes are as you claim they are, and in the teeth of significant evidence that they are NOT as you claim they are.

Wow! Such cognitive dissonance.

You should get out more, mingle with real people rather than the perpetually-aggrieved racemongers.

Unsworth said...

@ JuliaM

"You should get out more, mingle with real people"

Amen to that.

And I do quite enjoy a bit of mingling myself.

Simon Gardner said...

JuliaM said... “...when challenged, to prove...”

I am fascinated to hear that you think there might even conceivably be some sort of reference to all of a society’s current (or even recent) mores. If you think there is going to be one, you will be sadly disappointed.

The very idea is counter-intuitive and completely ridiculous. Language is too fluid.

The French have attempted it (over language) and singularly failed. As far as I know, nobody else has tried (OK there’s Jonathon Green’s various Dictionaries of Slang but that’s not the same thing).

I really don’t think we are going to get anywhere with this. You sound exactly like all those poor pompous fools denying the change in the use of the word ‘gay’ - as if railing against it was ever going to make a blind bit of difference to the fact of it.

JuliaM said...

"You sound exactly like all those poor pompous fools denying the change in the use of the word ‘gay’..."

There hasn't BEEN a 'change in the use' of the word gay. A group has appropriated it to mean something to their group.

If I write in a letter that my garden is particularly gay today, I'm not (now) saying that my garden is homosexual. No-one would understand it as such (well, no-one with an IQ above that of room temperature, anyway).

The fact that you have no idea how language works confirms my suspicions - you are simply banging the same drum over and over, because it had been drilled into you that if you continue to talk nonsense, people get exasperated and you can claim 'victory'.

Sorry, kid. School's out. It was out a long, long time ago. That tactic doesn't work so well as you thought, does it?

Simon Gardner said...

JuliaM said... “There hasn't BEEN a 'change in the use' of the word gay.”

There you go. What ignorance. I rest my case.

Idle Pen Pusher said...

"If I write in a letter that my garden is particularly gay today, I'm not (now) saying that my garden is homosexual."

Not that the garden itself is homosexual because gardens do not reproduce sexually. But you might mean:
1) That a whole array of pink flowers had suddenly come into bloom, or
2) That the garden was looking excessively well-kempt and twee, or
3) That the garden had fallen into a sorry state of disrepair.

JuliaM said...

"I rest my case."

You have to actually make one first.

Sadly for you, 'The World According To Simple Simon Gardner' isn't a required reading text.. ;)

the commentariat said...

Very much enjoying the blog war - but am not quite sure whether it's not all a little bit sound and fury. Blogged my take on it here, http://is.gd/iNOG.

AndrewJK said...

Has draper left the dole queue yet.