I'm not one to gloat at other people's misfortunes, as you know. But I'll make an exception HERE. And it seems I am not alone. I have lost count of the emails I have had from Labour bloggers and friends this morning urging me to stick the boot in. But you know me, I'd rather kill with kindness.
Derek Draper hasn't committed a crime. He hasn't even done anything as serious as Jacqui Smith. What he's done is akin to saying you went to Oxford, when actually you went to Oxford Brookes. Not a crime in itself, but if he is not accurate about his own education, it makes you doubt quite a lot more about LabourList, doesn't it?
What goes around...
68 comments:
There's a famous saying about spots and leopards, if memory serves me correctly....
To be fair to Draper - The institute is on Berkeleys campus and the students had full access to all of Berkeleys facilities - Draper never actually said his MA was from Berkeley - so it's a storm in a teacup.
And it's nothing compared to a blogger who defends Carol Thatchers right to use racist and offensive language on work premises. Now that is unforgivable and indefensible. Iain, are you ready to apologise now?
;)
you know its true.
And what is wrong with Oxford Brookes?
In the RAE before this one, its history department actually outscored the older institution, to general hilarity.
Plus, so far as I know they have never sold degrees for four guineas.
So after all that, he's NOT the man who put the "berk" into Berkeley.
I sometimes wonder about you Canvas.
Draper gave the impression that he went to Berkeley and he was being more than slightly economical with the truth. If he lies about that, what else does he lie about?
The word 'golliwog' is not racist...it's people like you who see racism hiding behind every tree who make it so. I'll readily concede though that it might be offensive.
Canvas - it is not on the Berkeley campus.
Draper: 'Berkeley is a collage'. I don't get it.
It's the mindset of these NuLab Apparatchiks which this episode has demonstrated so clearly - the routine deception, the deliberate lack of clarity, the constant obfuscation. Why did Draper make no attempt to reveal the true position earlier - when people were already remarking on his dubious claims? No doubt his move was to hope that things would die down. It was only when Guido blogged about this charade that he bothered to reveal the actual circumstances of his 'degree' and his 'university'. It remains to be seen whether he will - as he threatens - sue. I'd put very large amounts of money on him not doing so.
Draper is no better or worse than most of his NuLab colleagues. We have come to expect this sort of behaviour from all of them - including their apologists. Plain speaking, clarity and openness is unknown territory to them all.
Integrity? Honesty? What are they? Who cares?
shock horror! canvas being rather loose with truth. Say it ain't so. :-(
cato - the facts are facts.
Carol Thatcher used the word golliwog as a racial slur, apparently several times, when referring to another human being, she was on work premises - she was not talking about a a doll - she was not talking about an imaginary jam jar - she was talking about a human being . By the way his family were hurt and offended by her comments.
It is unacceptable language - it is racist language. She was wrong to use that language.
AND to try and defend Thatcher's actions is beyond the pale.
Iain messed up - but has yet to admit it.
Enough with the Dolly Draper obsession already. Are you in love or something?
Happy Darwin Day
*chuckles*
guido - where is it then...two feet away from it?
be real about it.
How cripplingly funny :)
It's conclusive - canvas = draperbot
Honestly, I've seen some idiotic trolling in my time but this one is just too risible. Nil points - do try harder.
I wonder how long Mr Fawkes has had this up his sleeve? I recall that someone mentioned the 'in' not 'at' Berkeley on a post just after LList was BETA launched.
And in the words of Mr K Keagan - I just love it!!!
My wife used to work for Anglia Polytechnic University, and had to deal with loads of foreign students who were less-than-gruntled to find they were studying "in" Cambridge, rather than "at" Cambridge.
It wouldn't suprise me if many of them have done little to correct that same confusion on their CVs when they return home... ;)
Poor canvas, sent out into the wicked world to defend the indefensible, with only a silly photograph to hide behind.
Go back to Dolly and tell him you can't do this any longer.
The Penguin
"Letters From A Tory said...
There's a famous saying about spots and leopards, if memory serves me correctly...."
Pardus macula non deponit!
I'm not really interested in Derek Draper. I feel mainly indifference towards him.
But I am annoyed at Iain Dale who is trying to hide behind this non-story (and using it as a way of getting out of apologising for his horrendous mistake re: Carol Thatcher the silly moo.)
;)
Lord Old Holborn of Tattingstone does not approve of bogus titles
Look, Draper is a socialist. Socialist dogma is founded on myth, lies and twisted logic. Gordon Brown is a socialist. Get the gist?
@ Canvas
So, is the pub just around the corner from the Campus part of Berkeley UC? I guess the bartender must be some sort of Professor - certainly his seminars seem to be remarkably well attended.
You're beginning to exhibit symptoms of monomania, or at least a obsession about Golliwogs. Perhaps Derek can help you? Would you entrust your future mental health to him? Possibly you already have.
Draper, he said, was "nothing more than a messenger boy, a factotum, a purveyor, a self-loving, over-scented clerk."
Wiki is your friend
Hi first post.
Fantastic work by Guido. Personally, I'm not keen on blogger attacking blogger and I read John Prescott's site with interest daily. Labour List could have been an amazing addition to online politics but instead it's a megaphone for Labour Party propaganda and Draper's ego. Bad show!
P.S. I'm loving the fact canvas posts here. I remember having a discussion/argument with her that slipped in to the metaphysical about the Iraq war back on the old Webcameron under the less interesting name d1bx4g.
You'll be pleased to know Canvas that I've come around more to your way of thinking. Although I still see your a loony liberal ;-)
He's taken his website offline.
Spinning in progress, no doubt.
Does anybody have it cached to check what changes?
"The Wright Institute has been educating doctoral students in clinical psychology for nearly 40 years. Our new master’s program is designed for students who want a high-quality graduate education and prefer to attend classes on weekends only.
Whether you are already employed—in or out of a human service setting—or just beginning to re-enter the job market, our program will provide the necessary educational background and pre-graduate supervised experience for you to become a licensed marriage and family therapist (MFT) in California."
So why are people being all snooby about it? It's in Berkely California. So what's all the fuss?
Grasping at straws...
Iain. say it " I'M SORRY!"
"And what is wrong with Oxford Brookes?"
Nothing, it's a good uni, but the University of Oxford has worldwide fame.
"It is unacceptable language - it is racist language. She was wrong to use that language. "
Thing is canvas, most people in this country don't care. It's only political activists who get in a tizzy about golliwog comments. Most people aren't racist but nor do they get too wound up by racism.
@ Canvas
It's not being 'snooby' (presumably 'snobby') to expect Draper to tell the truth - the whole truth, is it?
So in your world truth and honesty have now become a part of some sort of class warfare? I think so.
Well, I looked in on Labourlist this morning as a result of Guido posting about the terminological inexactitudes of Mr Draper's curriculum vitae (or, as Draper, in thrall to Obamerica and all thing Obamerican, would probably have it, his resumé).
The whole tone is so wrong, isn't it. From top to bottom it reads as if the glorious 'Private Eye' spoof Gordy Broon column, "From the Desk of the Supreme Leader" were, in fact, fact. They just don't understand that people (at least those people whose votes might change and therefore make a difference) will not willingly read such leaden, soulless, unquestioning guff.
The fawning, preening, myopic, self-satisfied, self-righteous, self-congratulatory guff that each of the contributors (Mandy, Balls, all of them) generates - in a desperate attempt to convince us that everything under Labour is just tickety-boo - is cloyingly ghastly.
There is no doubt, no questioning, no hint of dissidence. They are all in fear of the curtain suddenly being pulled aside and the commanding Wizard of Oz being revealed as just a pathetic little man, frantically pushing and pulling the levers of power.
As so much does these days, Labourlist made me recall a favourite quotation of Emerson's: "The louder he talked of his honour, the faster we counted our spoons".
'----they have never sold degrees for four guineas'.
guineas ? bit elitist isn't it ??
I went to Oxford Brookes. The business school was a dump.
Lying about your qualifications is a criminal offence....something about pecuniary advantage.
Any Lawyers on?
Unsworth, you're right ti was meant to say SNOBBY ! hehe ;)
yeah, well, this all seems a bit 'nasty' and malicious and SNOBBY.
But I know it's a Tory blog so what can I do about it except point it out to you...
nasty nasty Tories LoL ;)
Canvas - I think you'd better stop drinking now - you're beginning to sound remarkably paranoid.
Canvvas, you appear to have difficulty understanding what I wrote.
I said that the word 'golliwog' is not racist though the use of it might have been offensive.
You seem, as I said, to seek racism everywhere you look.
Quite frankly you and people like you are the problem in this country...not the solution.
He's down but not out Iain, leave him alone and his deeds will speak for him. He will drag the reputation of the whole blogging community into the gutter if it suits him to do so. Guido nailed him good, thats his style. Your style should be above the fray.
siberian Tory aka d1bx4g
nice to see you me old mucker.
I think JPs blog is interesting too.
His diy.com site hasn't been live for weeks. I checked it out and it's the same error message.
He does say on his website:
"QUALIFICATIONS AND TRAINING : I have an M.A. in clinical psychology and spent three years in Berkeley, California, training full time to be a psychotherapist. I have worked with adolescents in a community school and with children and adults in a large counselling centre. During my training I undertook over 1500 hours of supervised clinical work.
I am a member of the British Association for Counselling and Psychotherapy (BACP) and adhere to their ethical framework. For a copy of this CLICK HERE."
I can't see anything on the Wright Institute site that refers to an MA in Clinical Psychology - you can get a PsyD or an MA in Counselling Psychology. Slip of the pen maybe?!
Also, why wouldn't Mr Draper say where he got his quals from if it was indeed such a prestigious seat of learning as he claims today on Labourlist?
Plato the link is bottom left on their home page
"The Wright Institute has been educating doctoral students in clinical psychology for nearly 40 years. Our new master’s program is designed for students who want a high-quality graduate education and prefer to attend classes on weekends only.
Whether you are already employed—in or out of a human service setting—or just beginning to re-enter the job market, our program will provide the necessary educational background and pre-graduate supervised experience for you to become a licensed marriage and family therapist (MFT) in California."
you are all being so vindictive!
shame shame
this really is a non story.
I seem to remember there was a hoohah last year over a winner on the Apprentice Lee MqQueen telling porkies about how long he went to a university - Sir Alan Sugar didn't seem to be that bothered by it - and still gave him the job. Let's face it, regardless of the truth in it or not, i would say there are a majority of people who gild the lilly occasionally to get ahead. So this is nothing particularly shocking....
The biggest crime was taking this country to war in Iraq - that was no gilding the lilly...
www.plenty2say.com
Canvas says "this really is a non story."
Stop posting then. Doh!
@ Canvas
So it's 'vindictive' to point out that someone is a lying, devious, incompetent little shit? Not where it's true it ain't - and we now have ample evidence of that.
Did you trust this Draper person to take care of your mental well being?
Canvas - perhaps you've posted so often that your eyes no longer work.
The link you refer to is exactly as I pointed out above. There is no qualification that I see with the title Mr Draper states he has.
Nil points again.
How many box tops and tokens do I have to send in to get one of those fancy degrees?
As it's a "collage" maybe a painting with some cut out photographs from amagzines would do? I saw a nice photo earlier of Rab C Nesbitt and his lovely wife at the launch party for LabourScum.blot which might be appropriate?
The Penguin
Nice one Canvas 11:15! Though I'm a little more with Iain on that one than many might expect. But Stephen Newton makes a good link.
It is NOT like your Oxford Brookes analogy Iain. It is like saying "in Oxford" and not "at Oxford". Wasn't it Lord Archer who said he went to university in/at Oxford when he actually did no such thing.
As I've said before Derek Draper's qualifications and indeed professional practice compares very favourably indeed with the Tory party's and Guido's favourite "psychologist" who seems to have no obvious credentials at all.
He could and probably should have been more careful as he admits, but it was the Guardian who made the most culpable error. They should apologise.
On the clinical/counselling question is it just possible that the name/substance of the course has changed over the years since DD enrolled. Not saying it has. Just asking.
Walli is the word ver!!!!!
Personally I feel that Dollys contribution to online political discourse provides a vital function in today's world: I go there every day to laugh until I wet myself - it cheers me up no end.
On his education - I think most people seem to missing a real point here: Would you want really want your mental well being managed by somebody who apparently paid $7000 for his qualification and apparently only needed to attend classes at weekends?
@ Chris Paul
So Archer lying would make it perfectly OK for Draper to lie?
Really? So, if someone murdered my granny, that would allow me to murder yours?
Clown.
Draper didn't really lie now did he Unsworth? That's a distortion. He left something ambiguous, artful perhaps on his glossy web page, though actually a hell of a clue as it just doesn't read right. And he did not correct a mistake in the Guardian.
I'd expect his professional CV and his stationery and business cards to be crystal clear. If his card says MA (Berkeley) then he'd better watch out. But I don't suppose it does.
Draper actually has a first degree from a good university and an MA in his chosen field from a respected source, plus various memberships. The route of doing academic work alongside a large volume of supervised practice is a very strong one and beats an academic course hands down.
Loopy Lu - wheeled out by the Tories to appraise Gordon Brown, in a complete contempt for professional standards - was/is an amateur with no clear credentials at all. Her CV said she was at The Priory but she didn't appear in their staff list or in any document on their website.
Iain has a degree in German and is a dab hand at Shadenfreude ... but he pontificates on just about anything, whether qualified or not, and not just on German literature. he is in the best sense of the word an amateur. he loves politics and he loves the sound of his own voice. Perfect. But uncredentialed.
Derek Draper has the degrees he says he has, studied in Manchester and in California, and pulling him up for a bit of gloss in a sales spiel is fair enough, to a point.
But that point has been exceeded and it has become a smear IMO rather than the irreverent joshing it's worth. Draper is naturally over-reacting at this point. That's what he's like. But he's right that this is OTT and ad hominem.
And in another point ... I don't actually give a monkeys whether Iain Dale is not qualified in Economics from Cambridge or not qualified in Economics from nearby UEA. It remains a fact that he's not qualified in Economics from nowhere.
Derek is qualified at a good level in what he does for his living. Let's not forget that. Guido is attacking this man's livelihood. And for the Guardian who cocked up in the first place to join in seems very wrong.
And leave my gran (103 in April) out of this you utter muppet.
These bottom feeders always get their comeuppence.
If I was a Neu Arbeit myrmidon I would be putting a lot of space between myself and Mr Draper. He is bad news, he IS the news, and you cannot function as a Principle Demon of Darkness. cf Aleister Crowley-Campbell.
WV
nonscess
Canvas, I still can't see where Iain defended Carol Thatchers right to use the word. I can see that Dolly implied that He went to Berkeley, but didn't. I don't see that these two things are related. Iain claims to have invented blogging, Dolly couldn't blog his way out of a paper bag, none of this will help the country or the "government." What is clear though is that You keep going on about something like an irritatig kid who heard a story once, belived it, and can't shut up about it. Do You know what a bore is?
Mr Paul
What on earth are you twaddling about?
Mr Dale hasn't pretended that he has any qualifications of the sort you highlight. Why are you presenting your argument in terms that would lead a casual visitor to think that perhaps he had in the field of economics?
If you are restricting your critism of Mr Dale to his lack of educational qualifications to blog about the economy, then I suggest that you desist from posting on any blog without first providing evidence of your own academic superiority on the subject in question.
You say that you'd expect Mr Draper to be crystal clear and accurate about his professional qualifications etc on things such as his stationery. Well, on his professional-self website he indeed does make such misleading assertions.
QED.
Oh and PS - Mr Draper smeared Mr Dale's professional and personal persona without hesitation - on his Twitter account, on his Labourlist website and used its global email list to do the same.
If Mr Draper has:
- misrepresented his professional qualification or
- called into question his own integrity or
- demonstrated that his own conduct falls below the standards expected by the professional body that regulates his field of work
then he has no one to blame but himself.
chris Paul, very wise words. respect to you.
^^^^and this speaks volumes^^^^
At February 12, 2009 11:31 AM , canvas said...
cato - the facts are facts.
Carol Thatcher used the word golliwog as a racial slur, apparently several times, when referring to another human being, she was on work premises - she was not talking about a a doll - she was not talking about an imaginary jam jar - she was talking about a human being . By the way his family were hurt and offended by her comments.
===
After being called by Jo Brand or Adrian Chiles no doubt, just to make sure they got the chance to be offended.
wv: cated. Is that something to do with you, Cato?
Derek Draper hasn't committed a crime.
I think he is in breach of his governing bodies ethical code, this is a very serious matter. Derek Draper treats patients and is required to uphold high ethical standards as part of his responsibility to them.
Canvas = Dollybot.
I love the way that Dolly's Wikipedia entry gets filled with more and more negative stuff about him every single day. Yesterday, it claimed that LabourList somehow managed "to receive -76 visitors a day".
Funny what you find looking through the edit history on Wiki!
Jeffrey Archer said he was at Wellington and went to Oxford. People that try to mislead you over their academic credentials can turn out to be serial liars.
grim reaper = smellybot
;)
Chris Paul,
Do you by any chance have a blockage in your digestive tract?
If not, perhaps you could then do the normal thing with your shit rather than dump it here?
The Penguin
canvas said... "grim reaper = smellybot"
Hey, when you've gotta handle as many dead people as I do each day, you're not gonna smell of roses!
;-)
Some interesting information on Guido's site.
The MA currently advertised on the Wright Institute's web site didn't exist when our man was a student.
I'm not a psychologist but 3 years full time seems grossly excessive for a master's degree.
Could our man have signed on for the 3 year doctorate course and failed his finals, thus being awarded a compensatory master's?
Rumour has it that he took 5 years to get his Bachelor's degree at Manchester University (or, possibly, Manchester College of Brick Laying and Hair Dressing).
Tell us. Can these things be true?
@ Chris Paul
So you've seen Draper's certification then? There's an awful lot of supposition in your comment. You seem to believe Draper - whilst acknowledging that he has been ambiguous or artful. Then you seem to expect readers to deduce something from this 'artfulness' - that actually he means something entirely different from that which he has written. This is complete Looking Glass crap, isn't it?
I know you are his apologist, but all that means is that you believe this is the action of honourable men - and his moral code is something you yourself would espouse. It's OK to distort and obfuscate - because Draper does.
As to your gran - I wish her long life and happiness. However it's clear that you really don't understand the analogy - probably deliberately, but one cannot entirely rule out crass stupidity.
Clown
I've just noticed that LabourList's official launch was today. Only Derek Draper could start the morning of his website's launch by posting a threat of legal action!
Richard, paraphrasing me on Guido's site, is correct save in one respect:
you do not fail your finals for a doctorate, but you do fail if you cannot contribute anything new or original.
Apt.
I once stayed at the faculty club at U.C., Berkeley, and met a woman in the bar there who had worked with Joseph Teller. I visited the maths department and coauthored a paper with a distinguished professor there. I never me Derek Draper though.
"Jeffrey Archer said he was at Wellington and went to Oxford".
Archer did go to Oxford...
Oxford Prison! His prison number bears witness to this fact.
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