So, 12,000 people demonstrated yesterday against the Israei action in Gaza. Ken Livingstone, Tony Benn, Annie Lennox and Alexei Sayle felt quite happy marching alongside people with posters actively supporting the terror organisation Hamas.
I might take their demonstration more seriously if they had been out on the streets demonstrating against the 10,000 rockets launched by Hamas against Israeli civilians over the last five years.
195 comments:
Why is it that whenever I see Livingstone or Clare Short that I feel compelled to take the other side of the argument, almost regardless of what they're saying
Me too..
I can somewhat understand folks on the left siding with secular Fatah, but HAMAS?
have they lost their minds?
As a reminder on just how extreme Hamas are, they legalised crucifixtion on Dec 24th.
More here
Iain - If you were oppressed to the extent that Palestinians are (in Gaza and West Bank) - ID cards, an apartheid wall, inability to retrun to your home towns ect ect... I think you might resort to firing rockets in an attempt to gain your right to freedom. I do not condone their actions and believe peaceful negotiations are preferable, however, I urge you to consider both sides of the argument in your next blog about the crisis! I have many young Israeli friends - most of whom agree that both Israel and Palestine are as bad as each other (can you at the very least support this consensus?)
You can't be serious Iain? This isn't about supporting Hamas, this is about condemning the actions of the Israeli government in the strongest possible terms.
Not everyone in Gaza is a Hamas terrorist, they cowardly mix with the ordinary people. Yet the Israeli solution is to target indiscriminantly in a matter that ensures maximum civilian casualties.
Hamas launch a rocket into Israel from a schoolyard. Israel will respond by obliterating the school and killing every child there. The argument being (from the Israeli foreign minister) "It's not our fault, it's Hamas's for mixing with the population".
By that reasoning if I was to get a gun and take you hostage, using you as a human shield, the police that arrive on the scene should have absolutely no qualms in blowing a hole through you in order to kill me. After all, your death won't be their fault, it will be mine for taking you hostage in the first place. Are you REALLY ok with that Iain? I'm not, not even close.
Hamas is a disgraceful utterly contemptable vile organisation, and no-one in their right mind can support their actions. HOWEVER, equally so, the actions of the Israeli's are equally vile and contemptable.
John
1. Where's your your proof about indiscriminate bombing?
2. Why condemn Israel for protecting it's citizens? Besides what do you want Israel to do sit back and do nothing?
Yes, I think it suits a lot of people for Israel to sit back and do nothing.
She isn't going to though. Tough titties, appeasers..
Amazing isn't it how fading rock stars like Annie Lennox use "trendy" causes, thus giving her an opportunity to have a rare appearance on TV. Blame Geldoff, Bono etc for this.
Ugh, Annie Lennox, the original crying Jesus. The woman is past a joke and a militant Scot to boot. Why doesn't she take her millions along to Gaza and buy them food? No, I thought not. So much trendier to be seen in the streets, manning the barricades.
Why shouldn't the Israelis defend their people? I am sorry that the Palestenian people are being used by the vicious and corrupt Hamas but that does not mean Israel should sit there whey faced and in white silence while they are being attacked.
John, that must be one of the most muddled comments posted on this blog in months. And believe me there is stiff competition.
You don't really answer the point of my blogpost do you. All you do is indulge in some Israel bashing.
So Annie Lennox (has-been singer), Alexei Sayle (has-been comedian), Ken Livingstone (has-been former Mayor) and George Galloway (has-been...) turn out to throw shoes at Downing Street in an attempt to revive their respective flagging careers. Not getting picked for 'Celebrity' Big Brother (in some cases for a second time) can really hurt...
Don't worry Iain,
the BILLIONS sent from my pocket to Israel in hard cash and Apaches, F16's and nuclear weapons should speak loudly enough against stone throwing 8 year olds in their prison camp
"an apartheid wall,"
a wall that has been extremely effective at stopping suicide bombing.
so effective that Hamas has had to resort to using rockets.
plus you're forgetting that gaza has a SOUTHERN border - with Egypt.
why does Israel get all the blame for "sealing off" gaza? Egypt could quite easily open up the southern border - oh wait, no they wont. Cos they dont fancy terrorists running around their country either.
"Not everyone in Gaza is a Hamas terrorist, they cowardly mix with the ordinary people. Yet the Israeli solution is to target indiscriminantly in a matter that ensures maximum civilian casualties."
The UN in Gaza were saying that around a quarter of the Gaza casualties are civilians. Whilst that is tragic it the fact that the overwhelming majority of casualties aren't civilians demonstrates that Israel is going to great lengths to minimise civilian casualties against an enemy that hides among them.
This is all absolute rubbish, after all, the Great Gordon has telphoned the Israeli Prime Minister telling him not to invade Gaza, and since He Has Already Saved The World, surely that will be the end of it?
http://therantingkingpenguin.blogspot.com/2009/01/gordon-saves-world-again.html
The Penguin
Iain
Rubbish!
The late Harold Pinter once asked “How many people do you have to kill before you qualify to be described as a mass murderer and a war criminal?” Well Israel’s latest bit of genocide in Gaza has reached 400 and is still on the rise. Indiscriminate slaughter of men, women and children. Actions which can only inflame the situation in the occupied territories and lead to more bloodshed. What’s the very best way to encourage terrorism and insurgence? To kill the wives and mothers and children of those who might be tempted to oppose you. To give a bereaved man or woman no alternative but to turn themselves into a suicide bomber.
And, of course, the supreme irony of Israel’s descent to degradation (yet again) is that of all the people’s on the planet the Jews of Israel should be the most unwilling and unlikely to indulge in genocidal attacks. For the parallel with the horrors of the holocaust is precise. The Palestinians of Gaza may not have a yellow star on their clothes – but they are no less targeted than the fathers and grandfathers of Israel’s current fetid leadership had been.
That Israel was under attack from militants in Gaza is irrefutable – but that the response was disproportionate is undeniable. The Old Testament eye for an eye an tooth for a tooth is no basis for resolution of conflict in the modern world. The solution in Gaza has to come from the realisation by this evil Israeli Government that there actions are not only unacceptable to the international community (as yesterday’s mass protests around the world clearly showed); that they are not only a grotesque violation of human rights and natural justice; but that they are utterly counter-productive.
Egypt could quite easily open up the southern border
No they can't, one of the conditions of Israel withdrawing from the Egpyt-Palestine border was that Israel gets to control the border crossing using cameras and that nobody can cross without the Israeli military given them advance permission. If Egypt allows the border crossing to open then the Israel army will be back at the crossing and nobody will get across.
Yes, I think it suits a lot of people for Israel to sit back and do nothing.
She isn't going to though. Tough titties, appeasers..
Israeli casualties in the last 8 days: 4
Palestinian casualties in the last 8 days: 400+
Great bit of appeasing there JuliamM.
Paddy Briggs, you are an appeaser. You say Israel's response was disproportionate, yet you fail to say what they should have done. Typical. No doubt you think you can negotiate with a terror organisation part of whose articles of association is a clause committing them to your outright destruction.
Iain
"So far as we are human, what we do must be either evil or good: so far as we do evil or good, we are human: and it is better, in a paradoxical way, to do evil than to do nothing."
T S Eliot.
I disagree with him as I disagree with you...
" The late Harold Pinter once asked “How many people do you have to kill before you qualify to be described as a mass murderer and a war criminal?” "
Presumably the answer was somewhat less the the several hundred thousand the man whose release he campaigned for ,Slobodan Milosevic, killed. Quoting the supporter of an actual genocide to accuse Israel of genocide is sick.
I agree with you Iain. In answer to some of your commentators suggestion that Israel is indiscriminate I respectfully remind them that Israel actually phones or leaflets in advance giving due warning, thus giving civilians a chance to leave. Th US did the same in Iraq, even when targeting tanks and artillery. The soldiers were told to leave their equipment and they would not be harmed, only the equipment was going to be destroyed. What more can a government do ? For the Palestinians, the choice is clear - invest in Hospitals and Health not bombs, guns and missiles. Your leaders are lying to you. The Israeli's give you more rights in Israel than any Arab nation, including peace if you choose. The choice is yours. Follow Hamas's Charter (War and Destruction, Death to Israel, plain and simple) if you wish but be prepared for the consequences of your actions if you do..
I have a SOLUTION
Precisely, Iain. Someone told me there were "peace vigils" all over Britain and I asked, "For those Israelis killed by the bombs too, I trust."
Of course it wasn't.
I might take you more seriously had you instead given a tally of the innocents killed by the terrorist state of Israel.
What more can a government do ?
Depends whether you're talking about the Israeli government, propped up by the US and UK or whether you're talking about the Palestinian Hamas government (democratically elected in free and fair elections) which Israel is trying to terrorise Palestinians into overthrowing.
Jailhouselawyer, as you didn't give the figures, I will:
Fatalities:
Israel - 4
Palestine - 400+
Self defence my fat hairy arse.
It's also worth clarifying the use of the word "terrorism" to describe Israel's actions:
terrorism
noun
the calculated use of violence (or the threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimidation or coercion or instilling fear
The Israeli government are justified in whatever action they take!
I'm sick of the bleeding hearts who condemn Israel for retaliation,the same bleeding hearts who conveniently kept quiet whilst Hamas rockets were raining down on Israel.
A few Israeli Tactical nuclear rockets would solve the probem once and for all
Wonkotsane, you should be renamed Wonkotinsane after this ridiculous post. Israel is a democracy. it is quite prepared to discuss a two state solution with legitimate representatives of the Palestinian people like Fatah. It will not enter into discussions with people who have been killing and maiming its civilians with 10,000 rockets over the last five years.
And Jailhouselawyer, don't worry, the last thing I need is to be taken seriously by you.
Don't think calling someone a useful idiot a day before interviewing them is a good chat up line!
Is your solution a final solution, Old Holborn? I bet you wish it was.
"a tally of the innocents killed by the terrorist state of Israel."
Hearing 'jailhouselawyer', of all people, whine about unjustified killing has just blown the circuits of my irony meter.
I better purtchase another in the sales...
Did your opinion change after Conservative Friends of Israel flew you out to Tel Aviv last year Iain or has it always been the same?
I wonder why Fatah, which lost the elections, are more legitimate in your eyes than Hamas which won them?
Hamas said it will enter into a long-term peace treaty with Israel if Israel withdraws to its 1967 borders which is the only territory Israel can legally occupy. Israel has no intention of withdrawing to the land it is legally entitled to.
So, it seems that both sides are willing to settle on a two-state solution but the sticking point is that Hamas wants back the land that Israel is illegally occupying and Israel refuses to give stolen Palestinian land back to Palestine.
Why did Israel play such a vital role in the emergence of Hamas?
Why do you think a Vengeance Rate of 100-1 is in any way justifiable? Is it for the same reasons that the Nazis thought it a reasonable return against the resistance they encoutered in the territories they occupied?
Why do tories always support the gunboat versus the bow and arrow? Is it because their entire 'ideology' (to abuse a noble word) can be boiled doewn to the simple barabarian creed of Might Is Right?
What other motives do the Zionist fanatics who rule Israeliu military policy have for this butchery other than to provoke Tehran into devloping WMDs and thereby justifying a pre-emptive strike by the IDF?
Dol you have any idea what you are talking about?
Sorry, I forgot, you're a tory. You are excused thought.
Why won't you allow commentors to use their URLs? What are you afraid of?
http://littlerichardjohn.blogspot.com/2009/01/dear-tehran-please-build-nuclear-bombs.html
JuliaM, not as ironic as you complaining about Palestinian appeasers whilst being in the act of appeasing Israeli terrorism. Perhaps you can get a deal on a reality check when you buy your new irony meter?
Wonkotsane, oh give me a break. Your first para is really desperate stuff. I am tempted to break my swearing ban but I shall resist. In case it escaped your notice, I met with Fatah representatives (including Abbas's chief of staff) and probably know more about their stance and their relationship with Hamas than you do.
You won't realise this but other middle eastern countries are tacitly encouraging Israel to wipe out Hamas. Do you actually know what Hamas stand for? I suspect not. If you did, you wouldn't raise a finger in their defence.
Go back to talking about issues you know something about. You are just being another Hamas useful idiot.
At the last count, I have read on the BBC, so it must be true, that 400 Palestinians were dead compared to 4 Israelies.
Then we read all this about a disproportionate response to Hamas.
So long as they keep the ratio to approx 100 to 1 then I fail to see how it is disproportionate.
Good luck to Israel - Hamas have no one to blame but themselves. If you play with fire you get burned.
"..JuliaM, not as ironic as you complaining about Palestinian appeasers whilst being in the act of appeasing Israeli terrorism"
If Israel was indulging in terrorism, I would be in agreement with it. Self defence is quite another matter.
Or since you seem to be taking out an onion for the poor Hamas chaps, so woefully outgunned by the IDF, would you prefer Israel randomly fired off a few malfunctioning rockets into civilian areas instead?
Would that suit your idea of 'proporionality'..?
Correction: Would not be in agreement with it...
"Go back to talking about issues you know something about."
Restaurant reviews? On a blog that hasn't been updated since last August?
I think wonkotsane reached the limit of his talent there... ;)
*
Since the beginning of operation “Cast Lead” on 27 Dec 2008, over 391 truckloads of aid carrying more than 6500 tons of aid (food, medicine, medical supplies), and 10 ambulances have been transferred into Gaza through the Kerem Shalom Crossing.
*
The Erez Crossing has been opened in limited capacity to allow patients in need of emergency care to cross through. This includes 12 emergency cases, which include two children, and they are now being treated in Israeli Hospitals.
*
At the request of their respective governments, Israel opened the Erez border crossing to allow 226 foreign and dual citizens to leave the Strip.
*
During the ceasefire, (June 16 – Dec 19, 2008) approximately 17,000 truckloads of aid were delivered, nearly double the 9,000 truckloads that Gaza had received in the five months prior. In addition to food, gas, and medicine, these truckloads carried in construction and industrial supplies.
*
Compared to 2007, 2008 saw a 20% increase in the number of patients receiving hospital care in Israel and abroad.
*
Today, over 950,000 Israelis live within range of rocket and mortar attacks.
*
There have been approximately 7,200 rockets (Grads, Qassams) and mortars launched at Israel since 2005.
*
During 2008, there have been 1755 mortars shells, 1720 Qassams rockets, and 75 Grad missiles launched at Israel.
*
Since Hamas’ election there has been a steady increase of these rocket attacks against Israel’s citizens:
* Between Israel’s evacuation of Gaza and the election of Hamas (Aug. 15, 2005 – Jan. 25, 2006), there was an average of over 15 rocket and mortar attacks a month.
* Between Hamas’ election and Hamas’ forceful takeover of the Strip (Jan. 25, 2006 – June 14, 2007), there was an average of over 102 attacks per month—an over 650% increase.
* Between Hamas’ takeover and the start of the Tahadiya (State of Calm), (June 14, 2007 – June 16, 2008), there was an average of over 361 attacks per month—an increase of an additional 350%.
* On Nov. 4 – 5, Israel launched Operation “Double Challenge”, targeting a tunnel Hamas was building as part of a plan to kidnap Israeli soldiers.
* From the end of Operation “Double Challenge” until the end of the Tahadiya, (Nov. 4 - Dec. 19, 2008) a period of only a month and a half, there were 170 mortars, 255 Qassams, and 5 Grads fired upon Israel’s civilian population centers.
* Since the end of the Tahadiya (Dec. 19, 2009) until the beginning of Operation “Cast Lead,” (Dec. 27, 2008) a period of little more than a week, there were approximately 300 mortars and rockets fired onto Israel.
* Since the begining of Operation ”Cast Lead”, there have been an additional 500 launches, 284 of which have been verified as rockets (both Qassams and Grads), and 113 as mortars.
If George Galloway had been flown out Iraq by Socialist Friends of Iraq (I made the name up although it wouldn't surprise me if it existed) you wouldn't consider it worthy of a mention Iain? Like so many Conservatives I'm afraid you're a lost cause where Israel is concerned.
Perhaps one of the biggest problems is America's support of Israel. If America withdrew this support I suspect that the conflict would cease very quickly. I think it is pathetic of Israel to blame Hamas for putting women and children in the path of Israel's aggression. What is happening is nothing short of genocide. And Israel claims it is dealing with a terrorist threat. Haven't they learnt anything from the Bush regime's war on terror? The terrorist state here is Israel. Hitler's Final Solution was unjustified. Israel's also lacks justification.
Christ Almighty- What would have been your position when the terrorist Irgun hung three British Army Sergeants ? Cheering them on, as you are a supporter of Israel !
Everybody is entitled to self defence, when you have a population that is locked up in Gaza, you will have retaliation and extremism of the worst kind.These people are desperate.
The Israelis are not going to let up, because there is an election looming and the US will condone anything Israel does.
The UK should not only condemn killing on all sides, but publically state that it will trade and invest in what is left of the Arab controlled lands.
So when Israel grabs more Palestinian land in the West Bank , can we expect all Fatah's new found friends to protest on this blog?
We await the next news of Israeli settlement expansion and how it is covered on this blog.
Yes, better a lost cause than a terrorist organisation's useful idiot, don't you think?
Iain, you seem to have come down firmly on one side of an argument that isn't really that clear cut. There isn't good and bad in this situation. It's pretty much all bad, there is a spiral of violence in the region that isn't going to be ended by troops or missiles from either side. Israel is clearly in a difficult position but it hasn't exactly covered itself in glory recently or indeed historically.
If there is going to be peace in the region Israel will have to deal with Hamas at some point. As was demonstrated in Northern Ireland, getting the moderates on side first is a start but it won't create a lasting solution unless the most radical elements can at least be brought to the table.
JuliaM, my blog is updated daily, I don't know where you're looking. Dig out your dictionary and look what terrorism actually means - terrorising Palestinians for political and religious reasons is terrorism.
Or since you seem to be taking out an onion for the poor Hamas chaps, so woefully outgunned by the IDF, would you prefer Israel randomly fired off a few malfunctioning rockets into civilian areas instead?
I'm not taking the side of Hamas, I'm taking the side of the Palestinians who have been under illegal occupation by an aggressive neighbour for the last half a century. Yes, let the Israeli's fire off a few malfunctioning rockets into a civilian area if they can find a civilian area in Gaza that is as sparsely populated as the parts of rural Israel that are within range of Hamas' rockets. The population density of Gaza is 11,000 people per square mile - it's the most densely populated place on the planet. Whether it's a malfunctioning home-made rocket or a laser guided missile from an F16, it's going to target civilians.
I just find Brown's statement so two faced.
Here we are fighting a hopeless war in Afghanistan, one we cannot win as couldn't a hundred years ago and one the Russians were unable to win over ten years!.
Over Christmas our excellent troops have been involved in a bloody fight where they have spent days in muddy trenches. Five soldiers killed - No mention on the press or even from our own man of courage the prime minister!
Yet instead of pulling our troops out and being honest with the people he calls this a fight against International terrorism.
Yet Is this not what Israel are doing? and Brown calls for an immediate cease fire.
So what he and Bush -supported by a useless United Nations- are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan is OKAY yet when Israel defend themselves against the HAMAS terrorists, it is not a fight against Internation Terrorism.
Am I missing something?
Is there no end to your stubbornity Dale? Those "rockets" - fired by driven idiots - killed just 17 people in eight years before the current Israeli onslaught began.
An onslaught which is claimed to be built on clinical accuracy but which kills kids by the dozen. Arguably as bad as the Hamas assault in accuracy but in a very different order of magnitude and intensity.
And an onslaught which answers every napoleonic quality home made and grossly inaccurate and 99.9 times out of 100 ineffective "rocket" with a tonne of 21st century flesh-ripping, heart-stopping munitions.
Which pretends the Hamas stuff is "missiles" or "rockets" or "Grads" and equivalent to what Israel has when they are no such thing. Desperate crappy weapons from desperate people made refugees over and over again, starved, humiliated, marginalised and treated as completely and utterly disposable non-humans.
Don't you get it? 18 dead in 8 years is one thing and 400 in 3 days is another?
Particularly when those rockets could be stopped by not starving and sieging Gaza - lending support to the hotheads and undermining the Hamas moderates (yes they had those), by not breaking the ceasefire on 4 November and killing 6 Gazans that day, by not continuing to kill protestors in the West Bank, by not continuing to build settlements in the West Bank and so on and so forth.
Lousie Ellman MP bless her is not someone I would expect to be condemning Israel and she isn't. But she is someone I'd expect to avoid talking shit and actively taking the bullies' side.
Yet when she says there are some Israeli children who have not been to school for weeks - unquantified numbers, not many I'll be bound - she is being highly foolish.
When 1.8 Million Gazans haven't had a square meal for 18 months. When they have no schools to go to at all. Because of Israel's activity and plain choices.
A sophisticated cosmopolitan state blaming uneducated hotheads pushed beyond their limits for everything that sophisticated cosmopolitan state chooses to dish out ... instead of doing the right thing.
Barak has apparently said that if he were a Gazan he'd being doing exactly what Hamas are doing. Which is rather elucidatory and also rather alarming.
Why don't you take the demonstration on its merits Iain? Gaza City is being reduced once again to rubble, hundreds are being killed.
Is this a subject intrinsically worthy of protest? I think so. 1000s more would do so if it were not for those Hezbollah and Hamas posters.
We are against all the violence and we think that it is self evident that Israel has the solution in its own hands ... without killing hundreds of fellow human beings ... and that Israel ought to have more fellow feeling for the poor, the dispossessed and the oppressed.
This blog of yours does not protest the average once in six months rocket killing from Hamas. Though you seem to expect crowds to do so at far greater cost and effort.
But this blog does cheer-lead without the slightest sign of balance when Israel overreacts and does the wrong thing.
Carte blanche is given. Stubbornity in the extreme.
PS The remark about buying food for the people in Gaza is idiotic. Israel would not let such food in most of the time. They will not allow any economy to be built. They are behaving contemptibly whatever good cause they may think they have.
wonkotsane - 950,000 israelis live within hamas rocket range so your argument is a fallacy. nor is gaza a jail. stop firing rockets = peace = nice for everyone !
Chris Paul, in your case you are not a useful idiot, you are a useless idiot. What utter drivel. But I would expect nothing better from you.
chris paul - your begging bowl whining is rubbish. gaza gets millions and millions in aid, yet all i see is guns, uniforms, bombs, missiles, expensive SUV's with blacked out windows that even I as a westerner cannot afford. Oh yes Yacht's too. Where is the money going ? Ah yes to fund a war machine, stolen from the palestinian people.. Perhaps they should buy food not AK-47's - hmmm just one AK will feed a person for a year. Wake up - you have been fooled long enough. The truth is all over the internet now. take your blinkers off and LOOK.. Hamas not the palestinians are being targeted. Grow up.
When I see the likes of Livingstone, Tony Benn and that awful sweaty sock that went on Big Brother (Galloway) supporting anything I know they must be wrong. As indeed I do when I read the comments from Old Holborn, Paddy Briggs, John, James and the rest. All illustrate the nasty inbuilt antisemitism that still holds sway in the political class of this country and amongst the left wing appeasers. They're not honest enough to admit it. Pathetic to see, read and listen to.
"Don't you get it? 18 dead in 8 years is one thing and 400 in 3 days is another?
Particularly when those rockets could be stopped by not starving and sieging Gaza "
Of course he doesn't get it. He's a tory, with all the intelligence and humanity of one.
The Zionist objective has always been to make Lebensraum for its biblically sanctioned Master Race. The current butchery by the Israeli F16s against the home made fireworks of Hamas is delivering a vengeance ratio of 1/100 in the Gazan ghetto, and is therefore raising the stakes to nuclear levels.
What will happen when it achieves its objectives only the Grand Wizards of the Endtimers can say. But as the entire middle eastern religious theme park will become uninhabitable, the sane world will be left to repair the damge as best it can.
http://littlerichardjohn.blogspot.com/
In answer to Dave at 1.02 pm, regarding Annie Lennox's involvement:
"Sound bites are made of this —
Who am I to disagree?"
Amjamjazz, I have no hesitation in calling you an anti semitic racist. You could be nothing else judging by your use of Lebensraum and Master race when talking about Israel. Any further such comments will result in a ban.
Iain Dale: "You won't realise this but other middle eastern countries are tacitly encouraging Israel to wipe out Hamas."
Tell me Iain, how many countries are encouraging Israel to ignore the prospect of civilian collateral damage in the process?
That's the salient point. Not that going after Hamas is wrong, it most certainly isn't, it's the number of innocent civilians paying the price in the pursuit of Hamas.
When I see clips and video's of innocent Palestinian children covered in blood, screaming, and running down the streets carrying what's left of their parents it causes a sadness that overwhelmes any desire I have to see Hamas wiped out in the way that Israel are currently choosing to do so.
When I turn on Sky News and listen to the Norwegian doctor working in Gaza describe how the hospital is overwhelmed by mostly women and children civilian casualties, it makes me think that if this is the cost of Israel's method of wiping out Hamas, then the cost is too damned high.
And where do you suggest they buy food from mdaspinall? Palestine's borders are controlled by Israel - they can't import or export anything without Israel's say-so and right now they're saying no. International aid is also controlled by Israel, both money and food. The Palestinians can't even keep Gaza's only power station running because Israel won't allow them to have enough fuel for it to keep going.
Hi Iain, although we don’t share the same political views, I have over the years enjoyed your site. Sadly, your right wing pro-Israeli view (clearly spurned on by your recent all expenses paid trip to Israel, sponsored by Conservative Friends of Israel aka Ashcroft) has become so obnoxious over recent weeks, I have come to the view that intellectually you are quite weak. Your grasp of international events are plainly blinded by a neo- conservative and anti-catholic dogma, that I no longer have any respect for anything you say.
By the time the clowns on both sides have finished arguing about how evil the other side are, there will have been many hundreds more Muslins and Jews killed and a new generation set on destroying their enemy.
Well done to you all...
Locke, bye then.
To try to export 21st century values is utter bollox.
We've killed more Iraquis in 5 years than Israel has killed Palestinians in 60.
Britain has killed more people than any country in history probably. Like 60 years of relative peace in Europe wipe a millenium from the memory.
The collective amnesia of the left counched in arrogance and bullshit. How conveniently they forget.
It's the same bullshit that the global warming gimps drivel on about - we've had our industrialisation, deforested everywhere but tough if you want to do as we did. We've had our wars but tough if you want to do what we did.
I don't know if there's a right or a wrong - evil certainly, war crimes - undoubtedly. My business - no way. I want it to end as much as the next dude but considering I live 20 miles away from the bloodiest battlefield in Britain - I hardly think lecturing the world can be viewed as anything but sanctimonious and insulting drivel.
But please preach some more, it's not tiresome at all. How very sophisticated.
"JuliaM, my blog is updated daily, I don't know where you're looking."
'Wonko's World', at http://www.wonkosworld.co.uk/blog/blogger.html
Last post, Aug 16th. Yeah, you have others, but I couldn't be bothered to look at them as well...
"Yes, let the Israeli's fire off a few malfunctioning rockets into a civilian area if they can find a civilian area in Gaza that is as sparsely populated as the parts of rural Israel that are within range of Hamas' rockets."
It's ok to fire ordnance at another country as long as there's a chance it might not hit anything...?
Wow, Iain was right - change your handle to 'wonkotinsane', chummy, it'll suit you better...
Iain
Looking through this thread I have to say that it is not your finest hour! Insults galore, not from the bloggers (which we can expect) but from you! I’m an “appeaser” – a judgment which would astonish anyone who knows me! And that is one of the milder abuses from your “pen”. And then I read that you were a guest of the “Conservative friends of Israel” (or some such) so your opinions are paid opinions. And anyone who disagrees with what Israel is doing is apparently “anti-semitic”. Goodness me, old thing, that goes too far.
May I recommend that you turn off your computer and your Blackberry and go and lie down in a dark room for a while. You may realise, if you don’t already, where you are heading. Dark corners indeed.
It would appear that Hamas are just not very good at making and firing rockets. I am sure that if they could make better ones and fire them more accurately they would. 18 casualties we are told - Hamas would like it be 18,000.
It is not disproportionate that Hamas casualties are higher since the Israelis are simply better at the business at hand.
Many States could be called "terrorist states" as some Hamas supporters define them. Not only Syria, Iran and North Korea but also Zimbabwe, the USA, the UK, China, Burma, Turkey, Pakistan, Russia and so on. All of those have armed forces engaged in suppressing what one might loosely call legitimate freedoms of people somewhere.
Yet the "world-wide protestors" - Muslims and faded celebrities, target only Israel, the States and the UK. Zimbabwe, China and Russia kill more protestors every year than Israel has done in Gaza. We have killed more Taliban in Afghanistan than that and we also seem to hit mostly children and innocent people. Or so the left-wing press and the BBC would have us believe.
"When I see clips and video's of innocent Palestinian children covered in blood, screaming, and running down the streets carrying what's left of their parents it causes a sadness that overwhelmes any desire I have to see Hamas wiped out in the way that Israel are currently choosing to do so.
When I turn on Sky News and listen to the Norwegian doctor working in Gaza describe how the hospital is overwhelmed by mostly women and children civilian casualties, it makes me think that if this is the cost of Israel's method of wiping out Hamas, then the cost is too damned high."
When you do see all that, do you not wonder to yourself 'Hmmm, I'm seeing only one side of the story here, I wonder why...'?
There's some rocket dudes who practice over the valley from me and they're ace.
Your post today is beneath you, Iain.
I am sure you can accept that many people are moved to protest against the huge loss of life in Gaza, and that it is possible to be in support of Palestinians and not in support of Hamas.
To conflate the two is an unnecessary polarisation of the argument. To suggest that people who hold this view should not protest in case they are perceived to support Hamas is disingenuous.
You clearly find yourself at one extreme of this argument, allowing yourself no sympathy whatsoever for the suffering of the Palestinian people. It may be easy for you to dismiss any other shade of opinion as anti-semitic, just as it is easy for others to disregard your view as unquestioning Zionism or overt racism. I maintain that the majority on both sides sit somewhere considerably more moderate.
There are many of us who don't have your blinkers and can see the suffering on all sides, and will not stand silent when so many are dying and injured. Your disdain for that human concern is beneath you.
Paddy Briggs
So if you are not an appeaser how would you describe yourself?
At January 04, 2009 1:24 PM , Paddy Briggs said...
Iain
...To give a bereaved man or woman no alternative but to turn themselves into a suicide bomber.
===
You are Cherie Blair, er Booth, and I claim my £5.
Iain
Hartlepool away. Excellent draw?
strapworld "No mention on the press or even from our own man of courage the prime minister!"
I noticed that too. He makes a good play of mentioning them at the beginning of PMQs on live TV etc. He doesn't 'do' humanity out of hours though. Unless something is in it for him.
A true hoon if there ever was one.
"Go back to talking about issues you know something about"
If that were to happen, this blog - and very many others - would be mute.
If anyone here believes that a terrorist organisation, embedded within its own community, can be defeated and eradicated by the application of conventional military force, they are completely deluded. I challenge you, Iain, and anyone else here to name a single confrontation throughout history where this has happened.
All military history shows otherwise. Indeed all recent Israeli military history shows otherwise. By our standards Hamas may well be a group of bloodthirsty and amoral individuals, but one has to be aware of the huge religious and cultural differences. These people regard themselves as Holy Warriors who, if they are killed, are martyrs and will automatically go to their Heaven. Their concept of right and wrong is entirely different from that of the Israelis and their supporters.
As such this military action is unwinnable, unless Israel is prepared to invade and permananently occupy Gaza, in the course of which it must destroy the Palestinians and their culture. Does it have the resource and the resolve to do this? I doubt it on both counts. Does Israel have any alternative strategy? Because, in the end, it will have to extract itself from Gaza - one way or another. Like the US invasion of Iraq, it's quite easy to plan an invasion and war, but as we all know - it's a hellish difficult thing to plan a peace.
Underscore, you have read into this post what your prejudices lead you to. I have great sympathy for the Palestinian people, who should have their own state, free of the terror which Hamas has brought to them.
I also have sympathy for the democratic state of Israel, which has every right to defend itself against terror organisations who think nothing of launching rockets onto civilians. Your tacit support for them sickens me.
Chris Paul, still waiting for an answer. Are you a drain on society or are you gainfully employed? I suspect from your refusal to answer on previous occasions it is the former which gives you plenty of time to compose your drivel.
I rarely disagree with you Iain, but on this issue I have to say I find your blog post a bit simplistic.
I don't support the extremists (for there are more moderates, we should acknowledge this) within Hamas or many of its actions, but I don't exactly feel great about the innocent victims in all of this - on both sides but also disproportionately on the Palestinian side - and find that this latest offensive a futile exercise that only serves to increase more extreme views in a land where people are suffering.
Let's show some support for restraint of violence. And, quite frankly, that's what I assume the vast majority of people in that demo were expressing
I have listened to LOADS of news and interviews on this recently, and one just now on CNN, and I noticed that I cannot recall ONE so-called Palestinian saying it is wrong for Hammas to rocket Israel. Even if asked in SPECIFIC tems, they say not a word against or even about Hammas and the rockets, not one. They change the subject and start talking like all their Pallywood publicists. These Gazans elected terrorists to power, and now sustain them. There is no political solution possible because it is really about the ancient hatred of Muslims for Jews. They could choose to live in peace with Israel and negotiate; the Koran and their terrorist leaders deny them that option
I don't understand the conflict; I don't understand its causes. I don't get who is right or who is wrong.
I am not religious. I don't believe at all.
What I do believe, however, is that whenever I see Ken Livingstone, Tony Benn or Clare Short banging on about terrorists or rights, I know that there is more to this than meets their simplistic eye.
Many of you are indulging in a lot of useless stone throwing. The problem needs to be sorted out - not made worse! Palmerston used to talk about the balance of power. Here is a classic case of no balance of power. Some of you may understand this if I say "fair playing field".
The American support of Israel is a huge obstacle. Obama has an opportunity to stand back from this support. This would enable some fairness, and a feeling of fairness, which has been particularly lacking while Bush has been president.
Peter Tatchell carried a placard calling for both Hamas and Israel to stop the killing, Gazans have been the target of a pretty severe squeeze from Israel this doesn't breed political tolerance.
A just settlement would give space to secular Palestine but violent assaults will defeat Hamas only to give rise to more reactionery forces.
Looks like the IDF are going for a rerun of their catastrophic invasion of Lebanon...scary to think these are people with nuclear weapons
The usual suspects are at it again - Paddy Briggs, Chris Paul and the rest of their ilk. Let me tell you something Briggs, anyone who quotes that sneering anti-semitic (and I don't care if he is dead) Harold Pinter at me - yes he was born a Jew, but he is the worst kind of anti-semite - the type who despises himself and really wants to be a WASP - is on to losing wicket with me. You are an appeaser pure and simple and you make me sick.
james (and other unuseful idiots) said...
Iain - If you were oppressed to the extent that Palestinians are (... I think you might resort to firing rockets in an attempt to gain your right to freedom.
-----------------------------------
Great idea, James (and other unuseful idiots), in fact why don't we dole out (ho) rockets to our own impoverished (say Calton in Glasgow) and they could aim them at chi-chi Bearsden.
Rockets - The best way to make the poor feel good about themselves.
Every time the lefties have a chance to make fools of themselves, they take it.
Sad, really.
"When 1.8 Million Gazans haven't had a square meal for 18 months."
Yet more lies.
Lauren Booth, in a well stocked Gaza supermarket...
http://i44.tinypic.com/ivii9s.jpg
"Daily Life in Gaza" - youtube video, taken on Dec 3rd 2008
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=l4g1-HTJYEk
Darfur.
A few hundred thousand dead doesn't seem to excite the pretrendy left in the way a few hundred dead in Gaza or a couple of hundred in POWs in Cuba.
Could this because they can't blame Israel, The US, or even the UK.
Absolutely - there's no fun in 'Darfur'. It's boring
Iain,
You are a useful PAID idiot of Israel.
If you want a clean conscience, pay back the money you took this year in flights and accomodation from the Conservative Friends of Israel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpSs-JOFZso
Here we have three or four members of Hamas turning up at their local school to discuss with the headmaster whether their young nephew Abdul might care to attend.
Education, education, education.
Another intelligent comment from Old Holborn - NOT.ne
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpSs-JOFZso
let's see that one on the BBC
Old Holborn, change the broken record. It's getting warped. Like your views on this subject.
"overcrowded" gaza
youtube vid
expect terrorist attacks from hong kong and singapore...
"Blogger Iain Dale said...
Amjamjazz, I have no hesitation in calling you an anti semitic racist. You could be nothing else judging by your use of Lebensraum and Master race when talking about Israel. Any further such comments will result in a ban."
The braindead con of calling all anti-zionists anti-semites again?
You are nothing but a giant fraud.
I'm delighted that you are as frightened of the truth as you obviously are. It reinforces everything everyone knows about the tory mentality.
For a start, Zionists do not represent Judaism, but merely a fascistic set of territorial demands derived from a mythical golden age and authenticated by a divine entity.
Most Jews are revolted by their reactionary cruelty. And even religious fundamentalists are examining the religious credentials of the creed.
http://littlerichardjohn.blogspot.com/2006/08/jews-against-zionism-contact-with.html
Your threats of censorship are typical of the bogus claims to libertarianism of the right wing. As bogus as Zionist claims that 'there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza', or that they are able to 'target' terrorists in one of the the densely populated states on earth.
But what else can we expect from someone subsidised by Israel?
Ban me? I'd consider it a privilege, and it will make very good reading on my blog and on as many messageboards as I can find. I can hardly wait to get my teeth i9nto it.
'TORY BLOGGER CENSORS UNCOMFORTABLE TRUTH'
Lovely.
http://littlerichardjohn.blogspot.com/
I have just clicked onto your pisspoor effort of a blog. You're not even worth the trouble of banning.
http://tinyurl.com/79jm4j
Ah, yes one of our peace-loving demonstrators demonstrating just how much he loves peace.
You want some?
Well, do you?
And please enough of this 'most densely populated places on earth' inanity.
Did I read somewhere that Portsmouth was more densely populated than the Gaza Strip.
Shall we send them some rockets to fire off?
The pretrendy left, truly they think not, they cut and paste.
Iain, you sweetie. **Mwah**
I've never banned anyone, nor ever censored a comment.
Maybe that's part of my success in the blogosphere this year.
Sorry, you didn't say when you are going to pay back the money spent by Israel on sending you to Israel this year. Maybe you aren't?
You'd make a PERFECT MP.
Iain Dale said...
I have just clicked onto your pisspoor effort of a blog. You're not even worth the trouble of banning.
-----------------------------------
You go, girlfriend.
;-)
last from me, time to do what the coalition did in Iraq, and go for a Ba'ath.
Oh dear,
Look at who paid for Iains little trip:
* Stuart Polak, Director
* Robert Halfon, Political Director
* Stephanie Leven, Projects Director
* Nathalie Tamam, Research Manager
* Julie Tamir, Secretary
* Charlotte Polak, Membership Secretary
Parliamentary Group
* Chairman: Rt Hon James Arbuthnot MP
* Vice Chairmen: Sir John Butterfill; James Clappison MP
* Secretary: David Amess MP
* Officers: Alistair Burt MP; Lee Scott MP; Theresa Villiers MP
* Chairman of CFI Europe: Timothy Kirkhope MEP
Honorary Officers
* President: Rt Hon Baroness Shephard of Northwold
* Vice Chairmen: Jeremy Galbraith; Betty Geller; Lord Taylor of Holbeach CBE; Stanley Cohen OBE; Michael Heller
* Vice Presidents: Rt Hon Sir Timothy Sainsbury; Lord Lane of Horsell; Sir Michael Latham DL; Lord Sanderson of Bowden; The Lord Steinberg; Lord Thomas of Gwydir QC
[edit]
Executive Board
* Richard Harrington (Chairman)
* Lance Anisfeld; Lorraine da Costa; Jonathan Gough; Andrew Heller (Hon. Treasurer); Steven Kaye; Edward Lee; Howard Leigh; Stephen Massey; David Meller; Jonathan Metliss; Gary Mond; Stephan Shakespeare; Barry Welck; Hilda Worth
That'll keep me busy for days....
Portsmouth is a country?
Dear me, what a terrible apology for thought is here.
As backward and reptilian as any other form of extreme nationalism. Such as Nazism, Jihad, Zionism, Greater Serbia, and the Irish Hall Of Kings.
And with all the concomitant brutalities, and mind-crippling idiocies of the cult. And only sustainable by massive subsidies by vested interests, as has been pointed out previously.
Like the Zionist project itself, in fact. Cramming all the world's Jews into Israel is an illogical and impossible objective, which is why it is now the most illegal state on the planet innn terms of UN resolutions and requiresd massive subsidies from the US to stay in existence at all.
It is clear that to you, a vengeance rate of 100 to one is quite acceptable. This is a moral surrender on a grand scale.
But since when do tories have morals? There's simply no money in morals.
"...when the attack began just over a week ago, a tide of diplomats, lobby groups, BLOGGERS and other supporters of Israel were unleashed to hammer home a handful of carefully crafted core messages intended to ensure that Israel was seen as the victim, even as its bombardment killed more than 430 Palestinians over the past week.." Mr McGreal,The Guardian
Well-said John -comment posted at 12.52pm today.
Bit disappointed with Ian whose views I normally respect for posting such a comment..maybe testing who is reading the blog/number of hits ....??
No one in their right mind should be supporting Israel -self defence against Gaza? -oh please ?? Gaza is a poor, defenceless, overcrowded shack of a cattle truck whose children (just now its been reported that a Palestine child has had both legs & an arm amputated) .Israel is a developed 1t world nuclear super power that has carried out an Act of War , we all know that & 80% of the people out there see this , the remaining 80% .....Open your eyes!!
Old Holborn, you're obviously not one for facts, as you made two factual errors in that last poor effort.
1. Israel did not send me to Israel.
2. Israel did not pay for my trip.
I declared at the time that I was invited to go by CFI. I am not a politician and had no need to declare that my trip was paid for. Loads of journalists go on trips to different countries and never declare their interest. I did, and yet you condemn me for it. Just because I go on a trip which someone else pays for does not make me beholden to them - which is precisely why I insisted on meeting Fatah representatives and visiting a refugee camp on the West Bank while I was there. I suspect if you had gone you would have been perfectly happy just to talk to people you agree with. But I may be doing you an justice. Still, why not. You seem to attribute to me all sorts of motives I just do not have.
And as to your list of names from the CFI I am not exactly sure what your point is. Or is it that they are jews? Actually, not all of them are, but don't let that divert you from your anti ISraeli agenda.
Perhaps you might like to also look at the Conservative Middle East Council. I may well be going to Syria and Jordan with them later in the year. No doubt you will then accuse me of writing pro Arab pieces just because I have gone on a paid for trip.
Or indeed Labour Friends of Israel who have also funded Labour MPs, journalists and bloggers (Theo Blackwell being one) to go to Israel.
Pathetic. You're trying to be a poor man's Guido yet you're not even fit to lick his shoes.
Well-said John -comment posted at 12.52pm today.
Bit disappointed with Ian whose views I normally respect for posting such a comment..maybe testing who is reading the blog/number of hits ....??
No one in their right mind should be supporting Israel -self defence against Gaza? -oh please ?? Gaza is a poor, defenceless, overcrowded shack of a cattle truck whose children (just now its been reported that a Palestine child has had both legs & an arm amputated) .Israel is a developed 1st world nuclear super power that has carried out an Act of War , we all know that & 80% of the people out there see this , the remaining 20% .....Open your eyes!!
"Just because I go on a trip which someone else pays for does not make me beholden to them "
Excuse me while I bust a gut laughing.
Tories really have no idea what money is. Which is why their blind awe of it has got us in the current mess.
Can anyone really give this adolescent parrot cage any credibility?
I really wish you would indeed bust a gut. It would save us all from having to read the drivel you post on here.
So, all the Labour MPs who properly declare they have been on fact finding missions to various countries are all beholden to them are they? Absolute rubbish. Except in your little world where everyone is a crook.
I've been called many things in the past but never a lefty. Next thing you know you'll be accusing me of reading the Guardian!
OH, I don't think Iain is in the pay of the "Jewish Mafia" or anything like that, I only asked if he'd changed his opinion after CFI sent him to Israel. A carefully planned trip round Israel and the West Bank with the right placemen and rent-a-mob could quite easily change the mind of someone already pre-disposed to Israeli terrorist appeasement. I wouldn't waste your time trying to find a conspiracy, I very much doubt there is one.
An interesting article by "Letters From A Tory".
http://www.lettersfromatory.com/
I can see no difference between Hamas and the Israelis apart from the fact that more accurate weapons have been trafficked into Israel so they've killed thousands of Palestinians whereas Hamas have only made holes in the road in Israel.
"So, all the Labour MPs who properly declare they have been on fact finding missions to various countries are all beholden to them are they?"
Now you're beginning to catch on Tory Boy.
Who pays the piper calls the tune.
And when you can come up with some actual criticism rather than abuse, you'll make it through the first grade.
Only in your perverted little world.
I've remembered some more differences between the Israelis and the Palestinians.
The Israelis have rerouted underground water sources in order to irrigate their gardens and deprive the Palestinians of drinking water.
The Israelis have imprisoned over 10,000 Palestinians without trial and indulge in torture thanks to pro-torture legislation passed by the Israeli government.
Israelis have stolen Palestinian land and property. Israelis have caused countless women to give birth at Israeli checkpoints and forbidden them access to medical treatment. Not all the babies survived.
The Israelis have caused suffering to Palestinians which is beyond words to describe.
Oh yes, and the Palestinians have made holes in Israeli road and managed to kill one or two Israelis.
Again with the abuse?
Is that really the best you can do? You've fallen a long way from your 6th form debating society standards, I assume. This squalid little tory dungheap really does give blogging a bad name, as if 'blog' wasn't bad enough to begin with.
The reality is that Hamas was virtually installed by Israel in order to divide Palestinian opinion from the secular Fatah, which reactionaries like you try to eradicate from your memories.
Luckily, those of us with human brains are unable to perform these feats of doublethink.
'There is No Humanitarian Crisis In Gaza'
Eyeless and Brainless In Jerusalem.
http://littlerichardjohn.blogspot.com/
I don't think you can accuse Alexei Sayle of being in bed with Hamas.
I was thinking of firing some rockets into Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, anyone got any Katuyshas going spare?
So the argument is that anyone who has concerns about lobbing bombs into a vegetable market as a security response is a Hamas supporter and probably an anti-semite as well? Not really much you can say to that.
I haven't read every comment, Iain; I haven't got the time, but there is one thing I do know; as soon as anyone of us defends the Israeli right protect its citizens, the usual Israeli bashing mob will turn out in force.
"I was thinking of firing some rockets into Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, anyone got any Katuyshas going spare? "
You've got a typically flexible memory.
Do you think that if the British Army (and Air Force!) had killed a hundred Irish Catholics for every Brit killed by the IRA we would now be still at war with them or not?
*the usual Israeli bashing mob will turn out in force.*
Here are pictures of Anti-Zionists preventing the burning of the Israeli flag in Whitehall.
http://littlerichardjohn.blogspot.com/2006/08/thrown-shoes-whitehall-5806-250-310pm.html
Like all ultra-nationalists in history, Zionists are the worst enemies of the country they a re fanatical about. The jewish people as a whole know more than most what happens when nationalism gets out of control. Which is why they are increasingly worried about the current moral decay of the Israeli state.
I'm often amazed how so many supposedly liberal people can support Hamas and Hezbollah. It's rather sick. Do they actually have any understanding of what these two organisations believe in ? And look at how Hamas treated members of Fatah, throwing them off buildings in an orgy of killing.
I agree with Iain. I have a huge sympathy for the people of Palestine, but no time at all for Hamas or Hezbollah.
I have taken the time to read the majority of the comments, and even I am amazed. To give an extreme example, how would some feel if Islamist suicide bombers were repeatedly attacking their communities? Would they offer support to the terrorists on the grounds the UK government's response was heavy handed? We all know the answer to those two questions.
Name any 'leftists' who 'support' Hamas, and show their 'support'.
Your myth making is just a defence mechanism against the truth.
Israel, of course, was a huge backer of hamas. It was in their political interest to undermine the secular Fatah and divide Palestinian opinion.
Iain
A poor man's version of guido?
Guido earns money from his blog. And deletes and censors his comments accordingly. As it would seem you do.
I don't.
I believe in free speech. And am happy to pay my own bills to keep it so. Hence you won't see me on Sky News, 5 Live or writing for the Torygraph with my tongue up anyones arse.
Yet I still get more readers than you, achieved in less than six months of blogging. With no adverts.
Food for thought.
You get more readers than me? Yeah, right.
And I only censor comments which contain swearing or racist language. Just to be clear.
Just checked - 101 UN resolutions against Israel and 17 against Iraq. Can someone explain the difference between Israel and Iraq in the context of this statement from the UN Ambassador to the UN:
The military campaign in Iraq is not a war against the people of Iraq, but rather against the regime that has denied the will of the international community for more than 12 years.
And you don't allow anonymous comments, do you? I do
My pronstats are HERE for all to see.
As for threatening to ban people, er.....you can't. Blogger won't allow it and you ain't that dumb that you don't know it. But it doesn't stop you threatening it, does it?
As I said, perfect MP material.
Old Holborn, you wrote: "Yet I still get more readers than you, achieved in less than six months of blogging."
This in intrigued me so I checked your traffic levels on Alexa and compared them to mine. You get a fraction of mine. So if you were deliberately telling an untruth about your traffic it makes me wonder about your judgement on the issue at hand. Can't blame me, can you?
A fraction of yours?
Yup
120/100
Old Holborn, I have just looked at your own stats. What a joke. On what basis do you get more traffic than me?!!! I'd love you to explain that.
In December I had 330,000 visits and 465,000 pageviews. You had 52,000 and 83,000. Either I am missing something, your maths are crap, or you have deliberately lied. Which is it?
If the Palestinians showed some desire to live peacefully Isreal would relax the security measures.
You can't blame Isreal for trying to protect it's residents from suicide bombers and rocket attacks.
What does Bianca Jagger do for an income, is she a writer or entertainer or something?
Just a quickie about the population density of Gaza.
1. It is considered 6th busiest in the world compared to countries.
Gaza is not a country.
So either make it all Palestinian territories and it drops from 4118 per sq km to 692 (or 13th in the world), or compare it with cities across the world and it drops to 31st. Here's the other 30:
1. Dhaka (43,752)
2. Delhi (26,276)
3. Kolkata (24,760)
4. Chennai (24,418)
5. Mumbai (22,658)
6. Bangalore (22,426)
7. Hyderabad (21,293)
8. Ahmedabad (19,979)
9. Seoul (17,215)
10. Tokyo (14,151)
11. Jakarta (12,738)
12. Wuhan (11,484)
13. New York City (10,452)
14. Tehran (10,260)
15. Moscow (9,644)
16. Yokohama (8,352)
17. Lagos (7,938)
18. Sao Paolo (7,216)
19. Beijing (6,968)
20. Singapore (6,904)
21. Hong Kong (6,397)
22. Istanbul (6,211)
23. Mexico City (5,950)
24. Riyadh (5,581)
25. Rio de Janeiro (5,212)
26. Shanghai (4,991)
27. Busan (4,722)
28. London (4,697)
29. Bogota (4,500)
30. Bangkok (4,444)
And after the 4000+ it very quickly drops to the hundreds (another 10 places).
So stop comparing apples with oranges please, Gaza is not that crowded.
Gaza is not a country.
So either make it all Palestinian territories and it drops from 4118 per sq km to 692 (or 13th in the world), or compare it with cities across the world and it drops to 31st.
Gaza is not a city either, idiot.
"Gaza is not that crowded."
And say what you like about the IDF, they're certainly dealing with the overcrowding issue.
"This in intrigued me so I checked your traffic levels on Alexa and compared them to mine. You get a fraction of mine."
Does anyone still really use Alexa's stats as a realistic measure of site popularity? There was an article on Techcrunch a year or so back which highlighted the weakness of Alexa's stats. Not to mention too many others to mention. Alexa may have been the best of the bunch a few years back (and that's a big "may have been"), but not today.
Old Holborn, That's why there is a city called Gaza City... Another lie from you?
And come on, answer the question about your traffic.
Clive, it was the only thing i could use to compare. He doesn't publish figures from Google Analytics. he then sent a link to Sitemeter, and the figures on that confirm the Alexa figures. He gets 20% of my traffic, yet maintains he gets more. Sad really.
The population density of Gaza is just over 11,000 people per square mile. I don't know what the blast radius of an Israeli missile is but lets say a 50ft diameter - that's an average of 11 Palestinians occupying that bit of land.
Old Holborn, taps fingers, waiting. Patiently.
Amjamjazz and Old Holborn - kiss my white ass. God, what morons you are.
January 04, 2009 8:43 PM
this "population density leads to terrorism" argument is getting tiresome.
List of cities by population
Mumbai : 22,658 per km2
Delhi: 26,276
Seoul: 17,215
Tokyo: 14,151
Jakarta: 12,738
Bangalore: 22,426
Lady Finchley
Is that near Golders Green?
John, that's for the Gaza Strip I believe, not Gaza City. Did anyone say population density leads to terrorism? I didn't notice any comments to that effect.
January 04, 2009 8:11 PM
the "international community" did f**k all for the Jews as they were being led to the gas chambers.
and this is from a UN that has Libya and Saudi Arabia as members of its "Human Rights Commission".
this is from a UN that has one refugee organisation JUST FOR the Pallywooders, and another for the rest of the world.
Heres hoping the IDF do the job, and wipe out Hamas.
Fuck international opinion - international opinion sure as hell wont help Israel if Hamas get an Iranian nuke , will it?
Guilt about not doing enough to save the Jews from the gas chambers isn't a good enough reason for turning a blind eye to the human rights abuses and terrorist atrocities carried out by Israel.
"the "international community" did f**k all for the Jews as they were being led to the gas chambers."
Correct.
Now we have a chance to stop the very same happening again and the likes of Guido, Iain, DK et al want history to repeat itself.
Stuff that. The Israeli's want the Palestinians gone. And it shows.
January 04, 2009 10:51 PM
its not guilt - its A FACT.
getting tired of this "international opinion" bollocks, especially when we're dealing with Hamas - an organistation thats even more extreme than the Nazis.
"Stuff that. The Israeli's want the Palestinians gone. And it shows.
January 04, 2009 10:52 PM"
oh right - so they're going to invade Jordan next?
amazing.
Ever heard of Greater Israel?
I prefer to call it "Lebensraum".
And yes, I'm fluent in Yiddish.
they'll probably invade Syria in 2 years time and their cheerleaders on the internet will perform their duty once again
Old Holborn, all very well but are you going to respond to the point that you have been lying about your blog stats? We're all waiting with baited breath.
Iain,
Whilst you worry about blog stats and your next slot on Sky News/invite to Camerons drinks party/Lord Sainsbury's grandsons Barmitzvah:
"Israel is a vile, racist, supremacist, bigoted nation, the very first founded on a religion that says Jews are Gods chosen people and everyone else is scum. GOD says so.
Is it any surprise they want to kill the filthy non Jews who used to live there?"
(from my blog)
PS: Don't trust Google analytics.
PPS: I saw you threaten to ban someone earlier. Tell me how? If you could, I wouldn't be here now would I?
Others may ignore what the Israelis get up to when they get the chance, I don't.
Old Holborn, It was you who raised the issue of blog statistic, not me. And you lied. I called you on it. You don't like it up you, do you?
And FYI, Google Analytics is recognised as the most accurate counter of blog visits.
Oh, and by the way, I have never been to a Cameron drinks party. God you're puerile.
I could ban you if I wanted, simply by deleting any comment you leave, but what's the point? You dig your own grave by every comment you leave.
"God you're puerile"
That means "boyish" doesn't it?
Ye Gods
Firstly this is the first time I am commenting on this blog as I feel I can no longer breathe the dirty Zionist air that bloggers such as Dale have created or supported.
It is a well known fact that Hamas has launched rockets into Israel, killing innocent people, yet I still do not support the action taken by Hamas, and Islam does condemn the taking of innocent lives.
However the action taken by the Israeli forces has been far more disproportionate and has led to a lot more casualties, mainly innocents. Hamas, Hezbollah etc and the Palestinian people have been fighting for a right of self determination for many years. So is it lawful just for Israel to use force, and nobody else is permitted to do so?
Addressing the Palestinians are terrorist issue. Why should the Jews come to Palestine from Europe and escape the atrocities of Hitler etc. Yet the Arab Muslims welcomed their cousins with open arms, and the Jews kicked them out of their state. Now when they want their state back they are called terrorist. For example I come to Dale's house he provides me with food and shelter and after a while I kick he out, when he cries and bangs the door and says "give my house back" he is labelled a terrorist. Is this fair???
Thanks
If anybody has any further comments to make then, feel free to email me on pendle.truth@gmail.com
Iain said
"Oh, and by the way, I have never been to a Cameron drinks party"
Don't worry darling, you will
Iain, OH fell for the Hamas bombing themselves video - natch he put it up cos he believed it was the Israelis and never ever not for a nanosecond thought twice about that - getting round the nets today. And now he's outted as a webstat w**ker. This is Bush's flypaper strategy writ small and reversed on the blogs - fight them over here so they don't have any credibility left to fight over there.
Old Holborn, call me an idiot all you like, but the bottom line is that the meme that Gaza is one of the most densely populated pices of land in the world directly comes from it being compared with countries.
While the Gaza strip is not a city, the bulk of the population live in highly urbanised areas and it's overall size is more comparable with a city than anything else.
The only point I am illustrating is that the internet (and TV news) meme is factually incorrect and possibly a demonstration of propaganda becoming fact.
That's not to say I'm not an idiot, just not necessarily a useful one...
A glimpse of sanity
That's right, Old Holborn so you can kiss my white Jewish ass. And your point is?
If the population density of the Gaza Strip is 11,000 per square mile and most people live in Gaza City then ... come on, put two and two together ... that's right, the population density of Gaza City is a lot higher than 11,000 people per square mile, maybe the most densely populated place on the planet like all the news channels keep telling us.
I have to say I agree with Paddy Briggs and Jimmy. And to all of the Tories and their closed-minded approach to Palestinian suffering, now I understand why despite Cameron's efforts, many people can't bear to vote Tory ever.
Looking at the racism towards Palestinians from the comments here (and some Palestinians are Christian and certainly not all the Muslims amongst them are terrorists), I have to say whenever a general election is called, I'll be giving your party a miss. Labour is bad, but you guys are so much worse!
Iain,
For an alternative (and more persuasive) analysis of the situation, I would refer you to the article in today's Times by Rabbi Michael Lerner.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article5446519.ece
Don't worry Prole. we can live without your vote. Gordon needs it more than we do.
Lady Finchley, surely your single brain cell has worked out that 1984 is a dire warning against the likes of Gordon Broon and the Labour Party. Your party is pathetic - with the economic situation, gone to sleep, with international crises, even more neo con than Nu Lab, with social values, even less conservative than Labour, regarding Christianity and its role in this country, you guys are even more hostile than Nu Lab. So if you're too stupid to work out from my sign in name that Gordon would never get my vote, then you're too stupid to be in govt. And with the west's impending bankrupcy, Israel would just have to buy it's F16s from the money I spend at ASDA and Tesco buying their jaffa oranges, instead of the huge defence grants they're getting off the taxpayer here and in USA at the moment.
Iain
"Old Holborn, all very well but are you going to respond to the point that you have been lying about your blog stats? We're all waiting with baited breath."
Speak for yourself. I'm not waiting, and my breath isn't bated, either. For that matter, what's yours baited with? Listerine's pretty OK - in moderation.
Israelis won't allow either journalists or aid into Palestine.
The last rogue state to act like that was North Korea and we were reminded about their callous inhumanity and refusal to submit to scrutiny in every news bulletin.
This time round journalists seem willing to
relay Israeli propaganda briefings without asking any awkward questions and without seeing for themselves whether they're being told the truth.
And here's a video of their Ambassador to the UK justifying the acts in 2007:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=M-poA1VaiRI
You might recognise the studio and presenter, Iain.
No, Prole, you are the one who is pathetic and a bore to boot. Now run along, dear.
Hamas is now killing Fatah rivals, under cover of the fighting.
As is stated elsewhere other Arab countries would be pleased to see the end of Hamas tho' they may never say so publically.
Iain said:
"I only censor comments which contain swearing or racist language."
I note the use of present tense with some ambivalence; I know for a fact this hasn't always been the case, but the introduction of comment registration greatly restricts another censorship method beyond deletions and bans; the use of multiple anonymous identities to bully* the person you wish to silence.
(*Or standing back and letting others do it for you, which amounts to the same thing when you're hosting the conversation and refusing to moderate fairly, responsibly, or even consistently.)
Incidentally, any ban that Iain issues is 100% reliant on the person who is banned not behaving like many of Iain's supporters (i.e. by using multiple anonymous identities).
Iain also said:
"He gets 20% of my traffic, yet maintains he gets more. Sad really."
"Google Analytics is recognised as the most accurate counter of blog visits."
Iain, in the past you have taken the figure for blog visits provided by Google Analytics and presented it as the figure for unique visitors.
You were claiming 250,000 unique visitors a month, when in reality it was closer to 50,000.... which was 20% of what you were claiming, as it happens. Sad, really.
You later claimed (and recently repeated) that you falsely presented this Google Analytics figure for visits as a count of unique visitors because it correlated with another figure for unique visitors given to you by another stats provider (i.e. not Google Analytics, "the most accurate counter of blog visits").
You may very well be right about Old Holborn having less visitors (or is it visits?) than you, but you are in no position to badger him and accuse OH of lying, stalling, and/or not liking it up him, because you've been guilty of stat-inflation yourself and to this day you refuse to admit it.
In fact, you should count yourself lucky that Old Holborn has responded in a far more subdued manner than you did when I revealed you had an audience 20% the size of what you were claiming. At the time, you claimed I was a 'liar', a 'loon', a 'joke', an 'idiot', and a poor role model for my children... all in one thread.
(Incidentally, your author profile at Comment is Free still claims that you have "300,000 regular readers a month". Knowing that this is the result of data that you offered them, when will you be taking steps to correct the error that has you doing exactly what you accuse OH of, right down to the approx. percentage?)
It doesn't look like Tim has much of a life does it?
@ Lady Finchley
Do you?
Iain, you wrote "I have great sympathy for the Palestinian people, who should have their own state, free of the terror which Hamas has brought to them."
Perhaps if you'd written that little line in with the short two paragraph piece in the first place, you'd have fended off a lot of the fair comments.
If you've got sympathy with both "sides" (civilians from both Israel and Palestine), then say it in your main post. Don't come down on one side and then, following the vitriol, say "no, no, I like the others as well, just not those nasty Hamas people"
Perhaps your flippancy on the march and its participants wasn't such a good idea on such an emotive subject, no?
Carl
"I only censor comments which contain swearing or racist language. Just to be clear. "
Then why do you threaten to censor on the grounds of political incorrectness, as you did to me?
Your theory that Zionists cannot be accused of fascism because Hitler happened to scapegoat Jews is typical right wing idiocy of the highest order.
You might as well say that homosexuals or Gypsies or the disabled cannot be accused of fascism for the same reason.
"Old Holborn said...
I prefer to call it "Lebensraum".
Watch out O.H. You'll get yourself banned. According to the delerious tory understanding of respect and rights, you're being racist.
"
getting tired of this "international opinion" bollocks, especially when we're dealing with Hamas - an organistation thats even more extreme than the Nazis. "
Then why did Israel support them?
""Israel and Hamas may currently be locked in deadly combat, but, according to several current and former U.S. intelligence officials, beginning in the late 1970s, Tel Aviv gave direct and indirect financial aid to Hamas over a period of years. Israel 'aided Hamas directly – the Israelis wanted to use it as a counterbalance to the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization),' said Tony Cordesman, Middle East analyst for the Center for Strategic [and International] Studies. Israel's support for Hamas 'was a direct attempt to divide and dilute support for a strong, secular PLO by using a competing religious alternative,' said a former senior CIA official."
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=8449
@ Lady Finchley - I love your unique campaigning strategy: when potential voters disagree with you, insult them and tell them you can do without their vote. Dave Cameron would've made a good PM, shame he's saddled with swivel-eyed bigots and lunatics. I suppose Labour can look forward to a 5th or even 6th term based on the unintelligent comments from Tories on this post.
Sorry Lady Finchley thinks serious political debate is a bore. I know like her fellow Tories she'd rather discuss the naked celeb BB contestant, Tory A1 bird.
But to those like me who've recently told pollsters they'll vote Tory but have now been jolted back to reality, see a serious debate on the current crisis from a conservative right-wing perspective (therefore boring to the average Tory):
http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/
p.s. conservative isn't a synonym for nasty.
No, prole, I don't think political debate is bore - it is scintillating when done well. You are the bore and you don't debate -you hector and insult. And you are quite hysterical too.
Oh, and a lawyer too! No wonder you love the sound of your own voice. And I wouldn't brag about listening to Classic FM either dear.
Iain, I have a tremendous respect for you and this blog, so am writing out of genuine concern here
Having read through all 180-odd posts here, I have managed to extrapolate that you are reasonably balanced on this issue. But why are you hiding opinions like " I have great sympathy for the Palestinian people, who should have their own state, free of the terror which Hamas has brought to them" in the comment section?
Given how sensitive and important this issue is, I am surprised that you havent spellt out your position on the blog itself.
Some of the comments here have been frankly beyond inappropriate, and I sympathise with your efforts to moderate professionally; however, I'd be disappointed to see someone as intelligent as you be dragged down to the level of personal and nasty comments. You're so much better than that!
Why would Israel want peace
A peaceful Israel would mean equal rights for all citizens. They would be outbred by Muslims in 30 years and using that wonderful invention of democracy they would be running the place with the consent of the population, Christians would claim the same rights over Bethlehem that Muslims and Jews claim over Jerusalem, billions upon billions of US and Jewish funding would cease, weapons of mass destruction would be revealed and no longer tolerated and it would become just another Lebanon.
That cannot be allowed to happen can it? Democracy? Peace? Freedom for all?
No wonder the tanks are rolling in.
What's this?
An affluent, independent, healthy, happy, well fed, peaceful viable Palestinian State just four weeks ago?
No wonder the Israelis are bombing the hell out of it. Competition like that wil not be tolerated, eh?
Courtesy of John Trenchard who has just been beautifully hoisted by his own petard.
Tim,
Iain can't ban me on Bloggers platform. The best he can do is switch on moderation which will spend the end of his blog or spend every waking hour of his day deleting my comments.
And if I don't swear, I haven't broken his rules, have I? So why would he delete them?
I feel your pain Iain. Have you noticed I've shot up to 16th most influencial blog in the UK?
Let me know when you've climbed 15 places. Until then you can kiss my sweet ass!
Only in your dreams Iain
*Mwah*
PS. I've just dumped the LPUK as my party. Bit of a spat with Devils Kitchen. I know you love gossip.
I'm not sure who I feel most sorry for :). Can't say I have noticed particularly libertarian views from you...
Iain,
You need your beauty sleep more than most.
It's late.
Reports coming through of scores of dead in a UN-run school in a refugee camp in Gaza. Zionist aoplogists will no doubt claim that they were terrorists, as they were killed. This is the Catch 22 logic which has now infested Zionism and, more worryingly, the rest of Israeli political ideology.
This was inevitable, especially since the IDF proved yesterday that it cannot even identify its own troops, let alone invisible terrorists. If it is unable to avoid targeting its own ground troops, how can it avoid targeting civilians in one of the most densely populated countries on earth. The entire Israeli propaganda front lies in ruins except to its apologists and dogmatists.
Meanwhile, in direct breach of the Geneva Treaty of 1980, the IDF has resorted to using phosphorus shells.
"These explosions are fantastic looking, and produce a great deal of smoke that blinds the enemy so that our forces can move in,"
said one Israeli security expert.
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2009/01/05-0
Alexie Sayle and Annie Lennox are useful idiots though also not humanitarians as a humanitarian would be concerned with 8000 rockets on Israel too. Galloway and Livingstone are cunning politicians,vicious and could care less if there is peace in the Middle East or not. They are not supporting the moderate Arabs but the rejectionists deliberately- it does not suit there political ideology and interests.
"Alexie Sayle and Annie Lennox are useful idiots though also not humanitarians as a humanitarian would be concerned with 8000 rockets on Israel too."
Or even 8000 half-bricks, which would be just as deadly as the fireworks launched by Hamas and the various breakway groups not under their control.
Real humanitarians care about the damage done to real lives. Which confines the apologists for Zionist aggression to a very despicable, squalid little display case in the political taxonomy.
It is the right of any country to defend itself or its territories from attack. Remember Mrs. Thatcher and the Falklands? Israel is the star of democracy in the Middle East. She deserves our support.
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