The row over the 'There's Probably No God' adverts took a new twist today. The Telegraph reports today that a devoutly Christian bus driver in Southampton has refused to drive his bus because it has the advert pasted to the side. The bus company have given him another bus to drive.
Personally, I have no issue with the ASA passing this advert. But the thought does occur to me. If the advert had said 'There's Probably No Allah: Now, Stop Worrying & Enjoy Your Life', would it have got through the ASA's censors? I think we all know the answer. And if it had, somehow, got through the ASA, would the bus company have touched it with the proverbial bargepole? Of course not.
56 comments:
I think we all know the answer.
Sums you up, pal!
Allah just means God in Arabic, so I see no reason why it wouldn't have been allowed. This sort of post is how the myth of massively over-zealous political correctness is maintained. And it is just that, a myth.
Wasn't the Atheist campaign a response to one that placed bible quotations on the underground?
The bus company might have problems in the future as various drivers object to driving buses with adverts for things that they oppose - christian adverts, alcohol, Labour party .....
I stand ready to be corrected but since Moslems believe in the same God as us (& even the old & new testaments) they should take the same offence, if seeking offence, as Christians. Translating "God" into arabic as "Allah" is sending a much more targeted message than saying their is no universal omnipotent, omniscient benevolent creator.
However if the posters had read "Jesus was not the son of God" & "Mohammed was not God's prophet" I think you are right about the ASA's reactions.
Interesting headline for your post Iain.
I really enjoyed your blog, I just wish I'd gotten to know you better. Good luck and all that...
:)
Iain, What are you implying by saying that "Allah" in adverts would not have been allowed.
I think that they should be no religious adverts like that in buses in the first place, but if the bus company was to advertise with Allah, I don't think people would mind it personally.
And why bring Allah into this?
I suppose we could have put such a sign up on the bendy busses? Then when they inexplicable 'caught fire', LRT could claim the old technical faults were back again... ;)
This does seem a bit of a non-story. The bus company has been sensible about their driver's viewpoint, no martyrs here, and that should be the end of it.
I wouldn't undertake to drive an "atheist" bus through Alabama. Deliberately winding people up about their deeply held beliefs is simply bad manners. The fact that one might end up getting shot should be neither here nor there.
More to the point, who is the righteous employee that demands he won't drive a bus because he is "offended?"
In what way is that different to a Muslim worker at Tescos refusing to handle alcohol or pork?
Drive the bus. It is your job.
The advertisement should read "there probably is no god".
By avoiding the capital G it would avoid specifically targeting the Christian god and instead refer to gods in general, including inter alia Allah.
I belive that is what the ad's sponsors intended so this is really a question of gramatical accuracy rather than anything else.
Max, this is a problem with the ad being in block capitals :)
JuliaM: "LRT"??? You're really showing your age there :)
There is no way that "There's probably no Allah" would get on the side of a bus.
Had that happened and the bus was routed through certain towns in the Midlands you can be sure the Police would be doing armed dawn raids on the Bus Company and slinging people in the cells.
Christians are now prevented from adopting kids. To my knowledge no Christian has threatened anyone in this country with death, or bombed a bus or terrorised anyone.
Muslims on the other hand have done all of the above and Hazel Blears has given them £70 million of our money to promote what she calls "community cohesion".
I have noticed a tendency on the left to now engage in trying to convince us that Political Correctness has been made up by the right.
I rate that alongside holocaust denial, since the end result will be to scapegoat any minority that does not fall within the approved list and those who are not on the list are earmarked for discrimination.
Tell me, stinky lefties, which is higher in your pyramid of hegemony?
Is it:
Muslims
Christians
Blacks
Gays
Jews
Whites
Or, ok, you have two potential adopters, one is gay the other is Muslim. (Christians are now banned) Which is the most likely to prejudice the child against minorities and anybody that is not like them?
Who is it?
Do tell, and then tell me Political Correctness does not exist and then tell me it is not eating itself.
I underline Iain's comment three times.. "There is probably no Allah" would result in arrests and incitement to racial hatred charges.
Just remember, Christians attract a few loonies like any group, but most of us want everyone to live and let live.
(As for the bus driver, that is the thin end of a sticky and logically untenable wedge.)
All this coverage about these false religions is disheartening.
Relinquish your hatred of others and be at peace.
Convert to the only true religion now!
The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster welcomes you with open appendages.
I think there's a huge difference between "...probably no God" and "...probably no Allah". The former is simply the English word for some sort of deity. It applies just as well to Christian gods, Jewish god, Muslim gods, Hindu gods, hell, even Greek and Roman gods.
However, "Allah" is quite obviously only identifiable with Islam, so if such a campaign were to use this word Muslims would be perfectly justified in feeling they were being picked on.
Saying there's probably no God is a bit like saying "Your house is probably not being burgled." I'd have never thought of it anyway unless you mentioned it. Now you've raised the possibility that there is a God, which will do the atheist cause no good.
Anyway, you're right, no bus company would ever take on the Allah version. Though I suspect most would be wary of "Jesus is not God's son" or "Buddha was a loony".
Mmmm...
Lots of convoluted attempts to dismiss your comment, Iain. Problem is they are all put on here by those seemingly wearing blinkers and ear plugs.
Anyone who truly believes that if the 'G' word was substituted with the 'A' word it would have made no difference whatsoever in certain parts of the UK should seek some form of psychiatric counselling at the earliest opportunity.
"JuliaM: "LRT"??? You're really showing your age there :)"
Heh! Sadly true... ;)
Bloody hell! I agree with "Old Holborn"! *Faints*
If people have a job to do and no rules are being broken (as in this case), then someone refusing to work on religious grounds deserves to be dismissed instantly.
Religion is a deeply personal thing - it has naff all to do with your employment. So if for some reason you feel you can't do your job because of it (grow up) then you should go and work somewhere else.
We need laws in this country keeping religion in the minds and homes of the people, and far far away from public policy.
I'm with Old Holborn (I'm closing my blog in 5 days - yeah right) on this.
Just drive the bus mate, it is what you're paid to do.
As for the God / Allah business, it would be nice if the Humanists did say God/Allah/Jehovah etc etc and then we could see which particular fundaMENTALISTs do the torching.
I myself was offended by the advert but it is a free country
(just about)and I had to eat it.
Damn straight that if it said Allah all hell would have broken loose. I'm glad the bus driver refused to drive the bus - what is good for the goose is good for the gander.
Mark Heenan, you would have a point if you had written god, rather than God.
There might well be a Zoroaster: There are lots of things to think about (but don't feel you have to), Don't you just hate being told to enjoy something?
You're probably not a god, but you never know: Now, if you are a god, there are many things to worry about.
There's definitely a God: Now, Stop Worrying, the people who did the other signs will suffer the eternal fires of damnation.
We didn't hire this Driver: He's a psycho in a stolen uniform, Now stop worrying & Enjoy the final moments of your somewhat curtailed life.
Faceless Bureaucrat (and indeed Iain) are completely missing the point. The advert as it stand is not specifically targeted at Christians, or any other theist religion; it's completely non-specific. If it said 'Allah' or 'Jehovah' or 'Christ' or 'Zeus' or any other name identified with a particular religion then it would be different, but it doesn't.
It's as much a criticism of Islam as it is of Christianity.
Wrinkled Weasel: the commies sold the gays and jews out because there's a few votes to be gained from the Muslims. That and a certain similarity of world view shared by both groups of freedom hating collectivists.
another point would be how would the Telegraph have reported it if it was a Muslim who had complained?
Ewan:
Au contraire, mon brave...
It is exactly because the 'Humanists' use the word 'God' as opposed to 'Allah' for their advert that they confirm that this is targeted directly at Christians. Leaving aside the fact that the Humanist movement clearly does not have the courage of its convictions (or 'balls') to deny the existence of God by all names, merely confirms that they only want to target the usual soft target 'turn the other cheek' Christians, rather than another religion who might turn around and give them a bloody nose (or much worse!). If the advert is trying to deny the existence of God for ALL RELIGIONS, then have the guts to say so.
Ranter (above) hits the nail squarely on the head here - as for the Bus Driver, he has as much right to take offence and refuse to take the Bus out as some Muslim Doctors have to refusing to wash their hands in Hospitals because the fluid used in the spray contains alcohol - anybody want to take up that issue? - thought not...
Why would you choose to translate one single word in your English language advert into Arabic unless you were trying to make a point? For the last time, Allah is Arabic for God. It is the word used by Arabs of all faiths including Christians.
How about:
The Prophet Mohammed was probably wrong about the future, so go on - have a beer!
The Guru Nanak might not have been too clever, so go on - get a shave!
Abraham might have made a mistake, so go on, get your hair cut!
Buddah might not have meant it, so go on - join the army!
Any religeon which cannot take ridicule deserves it even more and any religeon which cannot tolerate other people choosing to believe in other "gods" or none, deserves to be watched, very, very carefully!
Apart from the pointlessnes of the message that some, quite rightly, find offensive, the roads are very busy nowadays!! ...
The driver could have well imagined the bus crashing and God answering back to him: "Now, here's your chance to know for sure."
And if the humanists had wanted not to differentiate between any faith, they would have used, "probably are no gods".
John, anyone with spelling and logic as bad as yours deserves to go back to school.
I am an atheist, so a statement like:
Other "gods" or none
just reads as none or none. What were you trying to say, or do you type out your thoughts before they are fully formed?
@Faceless Bureaucrat: It is exactly because the 'Humanists' use the word 'God' as opposed to 'Allah' for their advert that they confirm that this is targeted directly at Christians.
Er, no. Because 'god' isn't a term specific to Christianity, it's entirely generic. You might, possibly, be able to argue the the point if they'd gone for 'God' with a single capital, but at best it's pretty thin, and when the entire ad is in capitals it's completely meaningless.
does not have the courage [..] to deny the existence of God by all names
Except this isn't a name, it's just a completely general term.
If the advert is trying to deny the existence of God for ALL RELIGIONS, then have the guts to say so.
It does. It says 'There's probably no god', not 'There's probably no Christian god'.
If you're reading this as a specific attack on Christianity then you're reading it wrong; there's simply nothing in it that points to one idea of god or another, it just says there (probably) isn't one at all.
Much as the bus-advert gave me a giggle, it's nothing I hadn't already I'd worked out myself. There is no God.
Wrinkled Weasel
"Just remember, Christians attract a few loonies like any group, but most of us want everyone to live and let live."
Insert any 'group' where 'Christians' is, and that statement would almost always be true.
People on the right discriminate (as you show in your post), and people on the left discriminate. We should all try to avoid it as much as possible.
That's a nasty case of Fatwa Envy you have there Iain.
Utilising a logical fallacy in defence of your argument automatically renders it moot. Crack open your favourite web browser and investigate the 'tu quoque' fallacy, then try again. And until that takes place you really have said nothing.
Are ad homs allowed here now? This is a welcome new development.
Whereas it may be true that the word 'allah' would not have been permitted in such an ad., it has to be said that giving in to religious protests on such matters is contrary to free speech and democracy.
Similarly, for christians to jump on the bandwagon of protest is inappropriate.
You do not have to agree with every sentiment expressed in advertising. You can choose to believe otherwise.
Finally, a bus driver drives the bus; he is not responsible for the ads on the side or the sentiments therein. Let's get back to freedom.
And I'd argue that the bus driver is free to not drive the bus, should he care not to. He must be prepared to meet the consequences, which I believe he is. So he expresses his freedom by going on strike. That's sure to wind up libertarian Thatcherites no end!
There is a lot of Jihad Envy (AKA Fatwa Envy) displayed in these comments. It seems that no defence of Christianity is complete without the line, "you wouldn't DARE say that about Islam".
Most people react to Islamist atrocities with a mixture of sadness and revulsion. In some Christians, however, this seems to be replaced with envy. They see how people are frightened of criticising Islam, and boy, are they jealous.
Maybe someone should make the advert, observe the response then call the bluff of those who insist Allah is the same god.
Highly scientific Roger, but I don't have the time right now. A walk down the park is beckoning with a friend's dog, then tomorrow I have to get on with the rest of my life.
Roger Thornhill:
Who cares if anyone thinks 'Allah' is the same god as the Christian one? It makes no difference to the campaign.
The slogan doesn't say 'There's no Christian god (and btw the Muslim's are wrong too)' it's simple and general: 'There isn't a god' - not yours, not theirs, not anyone's.
Hi Iain,
As the creator of this advert, there are many reasons why I came up with this wording. As others have mentioned, it's a counter-response to the evangelical Christian adverts which were running on London buses last year, which directed people to a website which insisted all non-Christians were going to burn in hell. The only religious advertising I've ever seen in London (and I've lived here all my life) has been Christian, and there's been a lot of it.
However, please note that the advert doesn't reference religion at all. There are plenty of people who believe in God, but who don't follow any religion - I would probably have counted myself among them before I became an atheist (I was brought up Christian). There are even more people in this country who can't quite bring themselves to believe, but who worry about what will happen to them at the end of their lives if they don’t. Our advert, as well as representing atheists, is aimed at the latter.
Our campaign thinks people should be free to believe whatever they want, and that this should always include non-believers. For the first time, we've achieved representation in public, in a peaceful and positive way - and I hope that, even if you don't agree with the advert's message, you'll support our right to freedom of speech.
Ariane, you're a star. I think I am in love, only please don't tell my wife.
Is this another example of Dale's Anti-Islam campaign. He has many a times demonstrated his stereotypical views. Muslims take offence for the word God as well as Allah, it means literally the same thing.
Also if Muslims could not censor or get censored words such as Islamophobia and there is no such thing in Islam, then how this could be censored.
Iain i feel you have offended all God fearing people including Muslims and should apologise.
Laughable.
Pendle, Iain puts it a bit bluntly, but he is an excellent campaigner for the causes he believes in, yet I see absolutely no evidence for an "Iain Dale Anti-Muslim" campaign.
How can I put this, you appear to speak with a lot of authority about Muslims, but there is no indication of your own faith. Are you a Muslim yourself and by implication you are offended, or are you making the point on behalf of other people?
by ALLAH! u r so clueless! yes enjoy ur life clueless thtas all that u can do!
Me too! I had cornflakes for breakfast and I'm listening to Paul Merton talking metaphysics on Radio 4, could life be any better?
I don't know, but I am a bit worried if those atheist buses even exist. I chipped in £10 (+ my wife), but I've not even seen one yet!
It could be a hoax. I'm going to time travel into London today and fly over the whole city to see if I can find one. Do let me know via Iain's blog here if you spot one so that I can rapid transit straight there ...
Whoops, sorry couldn't stay as long as I thought, must go now. My blogs closed for the day, by the way.
Well I take the RSS feed of Iain's blog just to annoy myself (being a non-Labour leftie and all) but I have to agree with the tenor of this post 100%.
Personally, I carry anti-religion stickers on my car and have often been advised that I risk it being torched if it ever carries an anti-Islam sticker (as opposed to all the anti-christian ones).
[Get 'em from http://evolvefish.com/index.html if you want them. They also do a nice line in anti-christian tee-shirts.]
The supposedly intollerant London cabbie has just sunk to such a new low that I am beginning to think that there really is a God. Halleluah!
On nudging a traffic cone a few inches forward a few minutes ago, with the end of my toe (much as I do when I "adjust" litter into the gutter), an approaching cabbie decided I had offended. She was so upset she caused me to catch up with her cab, tap on the window and swear in her face while lookig at her directly in the eye. She likened me to an "ignorant fool", but I am happy as a fool, who does she think she is just trundling around London, not looking for rides, but just interferring? I expect the war of the sexes will never be won, but I at least do expect my women to act like ladies!
Martin said...
The supposedly... (snip)
Sexist claptrap alert. (As well as being seriously off topic.)
Alerts and alarms are spoiling this world, is there no time left for sheer British craftsmanship any more?
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