political commentator * author * publisher * bookseller * radio presenter * blogger * Conservative candidate * former lobbyist * Jack Russell owner * West Ham United fanatic * Email iain AT iaindale DOT com
Friday, January 09, 2009
Hamas As They Really Are
This video is for those who, courtesy of the British media, appear to think Hamas is a full of well meaning, innocent people. They are terrorist thugs, and it's about time people ought to know better recognised that.
There have always been ranting demagogues in this world. But why don't the Palestinians laugh them off the stage? Don't they recognise a raving lunatic when they see one?
1. You have just given gaza and hamas £7M. When have you given or will give any financial help whatsoever to the civilians in Sderot, Ashkelon, Ashdod or Beer Sheva?
2. Last week Mr Milliband went very urgently to Paris. When did he or the PM run urgently for any meeting or to do anything to help Sderot , the residents of where 6500 hams rockets fell during the last three years?
Ian, I have not spoken to one person in this country that supports Hamas. You are right, they are terrorist thugs.
The problem I have is that almost 300 (Palestinian) CHILDREN have died in this conflict. And remind us, how many Israelis?
Every death is a travesty, particularly those of children, and as Ming Campbell said today, when did violence ever defeat a terrorist organisation in the past?
"This video is for those who, courtesy of the British media, appear to think Hamas is a full of well meaning, innocent people"
*facepalm*
Why is it that people automatically jump to the conclusion that opposition to totally disproportionate and arguably criminal actions by the Israeli's is defacto support for Hamas, who again we think are defacto Teddy Bears.
Every single person I have had contact with about this is well aware that Hamas are a terrorist organisation, and condems them in the strongest possible terms. Yet also condems the Israeli's for their totally disproportionate response.
Israel has turned the Gaza strip into the world's biggest concentration camp. Their actions make me sick. However, don't for one second automatically assume i'm pro hamas because of that view, i'm definately not.
Yes, but despite all the inflammatory blather, which appears chiefly designed to keep Hamas in office (their supporters being even more extreme if that's not too hard to imagine), the Hamas leadership have in the past extended overtures to Israel offering recognition (rejected), negotiations (rejected) and UN-brokered talks (rejected).
Of course, we could also browse videos showing extreme religious groups in Israel declaring that all of Greater Israel belongs inalienably to Israel and that all Arabs should be driven off it. This is a very widespread belief in Israel amongst the religious right.
I propose Iain that you start to read some history about the Israel/Palestine situation. Start in 1947 when Israelis deliberately and cynically drove Palestinians out via terror rumours and pre-planned atrocities.
Of course the Palestinians have huge grudges and are angry to the point of derangement - and I don't condone that or anti-semitism - but none of this helps, including your video and bland (or deliberate) misunderstandings and simplistic statements.
We would do better pressuring BOTH Israel and Hamas to come to talks. Your contribution does not help.
The problem I have is that almost 300 (Palestinian) CHILDREN have died in this conflict. And remind us, how many Israelis?
By the count up method the allies were the moral inferiors of the Nazis , a soldier a moral leper compared to a murderer. By the count up method you should stop droning on about Israel defending itself and start handing out woolly jumpers and hot drinks to old people who will be dying at rate of 281 a day this Winter . What would you expect your government to so if someone was throwing bombs at your children , negotiate or sort it . Hamas placed their missiles under schools even the IRA would not have used their own people as expendable blood sacrifices for a media campaign. Sudan got through a Lebanon worth of deaths every ten days , the Congo is right now matching this conflict death for death
You do not care about these people and you are unable to see that by attacking the Jews you are supporting Hamas .This is the middle east not middle England . Hamas brought us to this , everything they demand has been offered to the PLO who walked out .Israel are right , they are our friends and if friendship means anything it means supporting them when its difficult as well as when its easy.
Another thing , peace is impossible with hamas in power , if the heroes of the IDF can remove the scum then Obamah has a chance of settling the region . Its his luck and perhaps everyone’s that his hands will be clean and Israel and Geeorge Bush will do the dirty work
Trumpeter Lanfried: 'Don't they recognise a raving lunatic when they see one?'
An experiment, quite easy in these days when you can get MP3 files of anything.
Download a speech by Hitler, one by a Hamas figure, one of Martin Luther King's 'I have a dream' speeches, and an election speech by Obama. Get someone to play the recordings at random while you listen from behind a closed door. Can you tell which is which?
It's the skilled use of the crescendo technique that can make a crowd do anything, bad or good.
I grow tied of UK politicos/journos "on the right" attacking Hamas in Palestine.
Yet none of them stand up and go on the record and say they want to reduce immigration into the UK from countries whose populace share the same belief system as Hamas.
The Economic times they are a changing. I have said many times here that unless mainstream politicos - particularly the Tories - start voicing the concerns of people in the UK, they will find that the BNP will poll very well in the Euro PR elections this May.
"What would you expect your government to so if someone was throwing bombs at your children "
Pretty much what successive British governments did when British children were subjected to terrorist bombs. a calm and measured security response couple with political engagement. Perhaps carpet bombing Dublin might have calmed things down sooner, but frankly I doubt it.
"the IRA would not have used their own people as expendable blood sacrifices for a media campaign"
Google "hunger strike". They weren't quite as nice as you seem to think.
Whereas the BBC would have you believe that Hamas is a registered charity, and so the imbalance of reporting does need addressing, these muzzies are cowardly combatants. At the first sign if any real chutzpah they run away, tearing their military uniforms off and their shit stained underpants. Plus they use women and children as suicide bombers.
Frankly, all the video demonstrates is that they are all fur coat and no knickers.
"I propose Iain that you start to read some history about the Israel/Palestine situation. Start in 1947" - Despairing Liberal
That, in a nutshell, is the problem. Most of the secular intelligentsia & politicos think this started in 1947. It actually started around 1,500 BC with 2 children born of a man called Abraham. The animosity and hatred has grown ever since.
If you think Islam has only hated Jews since 1947 you are incredibly deluded. The 'outrage' about Gaza by the worlds muslims is not about land, it is about being humiliated by the hated & despised Jews and the kafir. There are far far worse battles & atrocities being perpetrated all over the world every day (by & against muslims) but these go unnoticed & unreported because the real seething anger & hatred is reserved for the Jews.
this video shows exactly the reason why Israel should not undertake morally and (more importantly) strategically incompetent attacks like this one, which plays right in to the hands of Hamas. Collective punishment - which is what the practical effect of the offensive is - is only undermining Palestinian moderate groups who are essential to any possible solution to the region's problems. The offensive is also doing nothing to prevent attacks on Israel (about 20 Qassam hit today)
I am normally a reasonable person, and I am prepared to accept that you may well have been drinking before you put up this post. I don't recall anybody on this or any other blog supporting Hamas (I am quite prepared to speak out against them).
But if you think that speaking out against Israeli aggression is tantamount to supporting Hamas, or it corollary that showing propaganda criticising Hamas justifies the killing of Palestinian children, then you give ample evidence of why the people of Norfolk decided you weren't up to the job of being their MP.
Unsworth - I suppose by us I mean , the world . Hamas , which is my point , have done everything in their power to bring this bloodshed into being. By "sort it" I mean remove the capability to attack Israel , remove the Hamas infra structure and effect regime change , the true aim(IMHO). We must all hope they succeed.
Perhaps you would the Jews to send a stiffly worded memo ? That might work as well
But if you think that speaking out against Israeli aggression is tantamount to supporting Hamas,
Is there some other Party in this conflict then ? I think I missed the Liberal Democrat candidate.
or it corollary that showing propaganda criticising Hamas justifies the killing of Palestinian children,
Hamas not IDF are killing Palestinian Children by putting their weapons under schools and provoking a reaction so as to polarise opinion and serve their insane Jihad .Israel wants peace and security and while it negotiates with its values (Golda Meir ) It at least has some .
"It actually started around 1,500 BC with 2 children born of a man called Abraham. The animosity and hatred has grown ever since."
That is the most pathetic reason I have ever heard for not sitting down and sorting out a dispute. At one level the Palestinians and the Israelis are behaving like spoilt children, except the consequences of their actions are far more deadly. Those on both sides who give any credence to any ancient historic, scriptural or religious claim deserve to be treated with contemt.
The one major problem I have with this clip is that it says that Hamas was "founded" in 1988. That is tosh, it was more renamed in 1988. Before that it was the Muslim brotherhod in Gaza and the West bank, and Shin Bett were happy to let them carry out their politcal work whilst quashing Fatah and the PLO at best or were actively supporting them and providing assistance at worst.
But them Memri is as biased a source as you can get. (Not that there are many useful unbiased sources in this conflict).
Trumpeter Lanfried "Don't they recognise a raving lunatic when they see one?"
No, but then there are many who do not either.
I am surprised that Memri think it is worth quoting Hamas as saying God is greater than America. (Allah is Arabic for God as Abba is Aramaic for God, the same God as entered into the covenant with Abraham).
It seems to me all folks who believe in God would believe that God is greater than any one country and indeed greater than them all. However by selectively translating all of the Arabic into English bar the word for God it makes a point where a considered and accurate translation would not. (The same mistake is made on the other side for precisely the same reasons, ignorance and the desire to spread division)
Hamas are the inevitable product of 60 years of expulsions, occupation, repression and a kill rate that has continued throughout at well over 100:1, courtesy of weapons and technology supplied by the self-righteous US and Europe. Like Al Qaeda, their genesis was supported and encouraged by both the US and Israel as a counter to the rise of Fatah in the days when it was considered the terrorist threat du jour - another example of 'Blow-Back ' in other words. Since you appear not to have noticed, they also won the Palestinian elections in 2006. A bit like the Irish NO vote to the EU constitution, it was the WRONG result and they have suffered an ever more draconian blockade ever since.
Terrorists thugs eh? YOU should take off your rose-tinted Zionist specs. It is the entire 1.5 million population of Gaza that is being terrorised to its very core right now with over 800 dead and counting - by IDF terrorist thugs. Now what do you suppose the 'Blow-Back' from that is likely to be? Peace and goodwill to all Israelis? - I seriously doubt it.
Israel one again confirms that it is a racist apartheid State living on borrowed time and stolen land.
To those who write about disproportionate responses I ask one question, “If you came home and found your wife being raped by an unarmed man, what would you do?” For example you could do nothing and hope that the rapist doesn’t hurt you or your wife. You could tackle the man and pull him off, but if you do that you might cause him to fight back, and hurt you and your wife. You could hit him on the back of the head with a broom handle, but if you don’t hit him hard enough he might turn on you, take the broom handle from you, and batter you and your wife. You could grab a kitchen knife and stab the man between the shoulder blades killing him outright, but is that disproportionate? You could hope for the rapist not to hurt you and your wife but his actions don’t give much hope of that, or you can take the initiative, take control of the situation and guarantee the safety of you and your wife. What will it be?
Look up the Hamas charter. Unless the web copies of this are forgeries (should anyone really treat the web as a primary source?) Hamas is essentially a psychopathic organisation.
The charter gives historical quotes indicating that, for a good Muslim, killing Jews is a religious duty.
Try this:
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him."
However, the Israelis are not above being murderous thugs either.
Memri.org has nothing about the Zionist agenda, the Israeli crimes committed since 1948, nor the beliefs of people like Sharon, Lipi, and Netanyahu. And it has nothing about the influence of AIPAC or of the CFOI.
Could you please explain why you take the side of Zionism, since you claim knowledge and expertise on the subject and have visited Israel at their expense.
There's plenty of information available about the evils of Zionism. Why do you ignore it?
@ Newmania Well, speak for yourself. You say 'The World' but isn't it the case that 'The World' in the shape of the UN has deplored the continuance of this bloodshed and demanded that the parties desist? You say 'we must hope' etc - well include me out.
I asked 'How' this 'sort it' process was to be achieved - and you don't seem to have an answer apart from reiterating what you believe or say is the IDF objective. Well, we might agree in some measure as to that, but do you believe that what the IDF is doing right now will achieve it? Seems to me that actually they are engendering huge international support for those who object to their continued and largely indiscriminate warfare against the Palestinians.
As to 'regime change' - well we continue to see the consequences of that elsewhere, do we not? And what right does Israel have to remove a democratically elected government?
Interesting that you refer to 'the Jews'. Are all Isrealis Jews and are all Jews Israelis? But your comment emphasises the precise problem - that in some people's minds this is a war between religions. I venture that it is not. This is a territorial dispute - which currently also happens to coincide with an Israeli election.
I'm not condoning the actions of the extremists in Hamas, but I am questioning whether the Israelis can actually achieve what they say they want by this action. After all, haven't they done this before? What was the outcome of that? Lasting Peace? How many enemies does Israel want?
How many enemies does Israel want? Well in this particular scrap Israel has the support of Hamas opponents such as Fatah and the Palestinian Authority. Common causes makes for strange bed fellows. A very important war aim for Israel is to remove Hamas ability to launch missiles that could at some future stage hit the Israeli nuclear facilities in the Demona Desert. Surely a war aim we can all support?
"You say 'The World' but isn't it the case that 'The World' in the shape of the UN has deplored the continuance of this bloodshed and demanded that the parties desist?"
The UN doesn't represent 'The World'. Much as it would like to think so.
And I don't see them doing anything but talk. When they want to send peacekeepers in to Gaza to stop Hamas firing rockets, get back to me...
"A very important war aim for Israel is to remove Hamas ability to launch missiles that could at some future stage hit the Israeli nuclear facilities in the Demona Desert. Surely a war aim we can all support?"
Any worries about such capabilities elsewhere in the world? North Korea, South America, Iran, etc?
Or is it the fact that Hamas actually seem to be firing rockets whereas the others only 'could at some future stage' do so? If we're going to institute wars on the basis of potential dangers where do we start - and where does this finish?
I don't understand the 'disproportionate' argument.
The IDF is entitled to use such force as is necessary to end the rocket attacks. So long as those attacks continue the continued use of force is justified.
@Unsworth For Israel Hamas is a real enemy, not a potential one. That is the difference. If Hamas stopped their actions against Israel that would be the end of it from Israel’s military point of view. Let us not forget that Hamas was once funded by Israel as a way to split the opposition, and to counter the power of Fatah. I would suggest that it is still in Israel best interest to have an active Hamas for the reasons above, but without the missiles.
How many enemies does HAMAS want? Instead of accepting the teachings of the Qu'ran, the nobility of peaceful co-existence, the requirement for compromise - they use spurious invocations of the teachings of Allah to denounce the Catholics from battles 700 years ago.
If Britain were to follow that methodology we would literally be at war with the entire world.. err.. maybe not some South American countries and Norway but everyone else. Knobheads.
Leadership defn: the ability to utterly screw your people.
Could it be that the lack of a hieracrchial structure in Islam is the problem in that Iman X and Iman Y carry the same authority? I dunno, but seriously, to state you want to demolish Rome isn't, you know, sane.
"I would suggest that it is still in Israel best interest to have an active Hamas for the reasons above, but without the missiles."
That may be so, but it's certainly not achievable by military action. It would require a complete change of approach on both sides. As to being 'without' missiles - well you can get them in almost every supermarket these days. So what's needed herte is for Hamas to reliquish its weapory and to completely change its philosophy, and for the Israelis to find other ways of dealing effectively with their neigbours.
Each rant ends with or containts the usual 'Allah willling' stuff. I suspect Allah is not willing, but I don't know how He thinks. People who wish to impose their own religion on the rest of the species are either profoundly stupid or were brought up in nasty, feudal toilet-like parts of the world that most inhabitants are busy trying to leave.
And I don't think under these circumstances, we'd want to settle for 'Oh, close enough..', would we?"
In those circumstances it's clear that there is no forum for world opinion or action - thus the Israelis and Hamas will continue to fight each other until they are, simply, tired of killing each other. In the meantime everyone else must view this warfare as an arcane spectator (or, blood) sport. Well, so be it. That's almost certainly what is happening on the ground anyway.
It's all very sad, but once a bunch of thugs gets into power it will eventually go pear-shaped. Plently of examples in the last century and a few more are still in the latter stages of their demise. The Hamas thugs have learned nothing at all from recent history...
What's the opposite of misogenist or chauvanist? But i'm starting to think that it may be a better idea if fillies ran the world - I really am.
There's a dude who does a blog called the International Forecaster - now half of it I don't understand and I blagged an Economics degree (and he wibbles on about the illuminati and stuff) but, on the whole, it's bloody grim reading.
But if we are walking head first into a bloody and cataclismic event with the demonization of muslims slowly taking hold, then frankly, I'm just gonna get wasted and have no part of it.
This isn't a resession, no way, look around, this could be the 1930's. We've got our enemy, we've got our extremists - all we need now is unemployment to exceed current projections (and my, haven't they been accurate) for the shit to hit the fan.
And perhaps you will continue ignoring the fact that Hamas is a murderous terror organisation which is committed to killing all Jews and destroying the state of Israel. But you won't take your anti Israel blinkers off will you?
As for your allegation that I am paid by Israel, you should be very careful throwing around disgraceful allegations like that. I was going to delete your comment as it is libellous, but then I thought, no, if he's really that desperate, it says more about him than me. Twat.
Steady on Iain - bad language isn't your bag. Thought you had fun on Sky last night and as for the tie - err...well.
Anywho - I didn't realize they wanna take out the Catholics also. I utterly disagreed with you about the Bishop of Rome's message before new year, (but that's old hat (big hat)), but for an organisation to wander round libeling religious groups who have the temerity to follow a different faith is not only proposterous, it absolutely defiles any acceptance of the one true God.
I've been brought up to believe that all those not baptized are heretics, are going to hell and, well, it's a pity and all. I know Pope Urban II forged diversive movements to unite after Charlemagne upon the Crusades but that was never a war of dominance, of elimination - it was a crusade to get back the Holy land. But these guys want Rome - they want to wipe out Rome. How dare they?
It's a town in the the bottom of Italy that has bugger all to do with scripture, with history, with praise or spirit to them - and to engage in argument that allows any thing other than acceptance that their mission is conversion with force is nieve, bordering on the psychotic.
Why not wipe out Halifax or Tunbridge Wells - oh, that's in there too. Give us a break for crying out loud. There's a difference between being an apologist - whatever the hell that is, and to genuinely observe a faction that utterly disrespect humanity. Just a thought - let's play darts!
"It's a tragedy that the Israelis - a people who must understand better than almost anybody the horrors of oppression - are now acting as oppressors. As the great Jewish writer Primo Levi once remarked "Everybody has their Jews, and for the Israelis it's the Palestinians". By creating a middle Eastern version of the Warsaw ghetto they are recapitulating their own history as though they've forgotten it. And by trying to paint an equivalence between the Palestinians - with their homemade rockets and stone-throwing teenagers - and themselves - with one of the most sophisticated military machines in the world - they sacrifice all credibility.
The Israelis are a gifted and resourceful people who fully deserve the right to live in peace, but who seem intent on squandering every chance to allow that to happen. It's difficult to avoid the conclusion that this conflict serves the political and economic purposes of Israel so well that they have every interest in maintaining it. While there is fighting they can continue to build illegal settlements. While there is fighting they continue to receive huge quantities of military aid from the United States. And while there is fighting they can avoid looking candidly at themselves and the ruthlessness into which they are descending.
Gaza is now an experiment in provocation. Stuff one and a half million people into a tiny space, stifle their access to water, electricity, food and medical treatment, destroy their livelihoods, and humiliate them regularly...and, surprise, surprise - they turn hostile. Now why would you want to make that experiment?
Because the hostility you provoke is the whole point. Now 'under attack' you can cast yourself as the victim, and call out the helicopter gunships and the F16 attack fighters and the heavy tanks and the guided missiles, and destroy yet more of the pathetic remains of infrastructure that the Palestinian state still has left. And then you can point to it as a hopeless case, unfit to govern itself, a terrorist state, a state with which you couldn't possibly reach an accommodation.
And then you can carry on with business as usual, quietly stealing their homeland."
Brian Eno is a musician and music producer. Artists+ Musicians speak up against Israel's war crimes
JOIN BRIAN ENO IN CONDEMNING ISRAEL'S DESTRUCTION OF CIVIL LIFE IN GAZA on Facebook.
This not only shows the extreme partisan nature of MEMRI but quotes several mainstream sources (including the Guardian) critical of selective and inaccurate translations etc.
If you knew the provenance and background of this clip and failed to disclose it then you should be ashamed of yourself.
I really fear that you have completely lost your head over this Gaza crisis.
Canvas - I applaud your consistency and you always make me think. You're often right but it takes me ages to get to where you are.
The problem is Jerusalem - how many times has that been said? Each of the major faiths places great emphasis upon it. The Palestinians (whoever they be - T.E.Lawrence over-ruled by your Woodrow Wislon springs to mind) claim it - they serve a useful purpose for all of us.
The leadership of the Paelstinians has, and on this tiny little point of order - has been fucking woeful. That said - the Israelis have chosen an opportune time to consolidate. I got the impression that the meeting of the 4 Presidents & Prseident elect Obama had bugger all to do with economics - he was checking what the lads had been up to. Carter looked like a bit of an outsider but if he can be brought back in - he's better than an exorcet missile.
It's tough being British sometimes - the slaughter at Ypres, at Tadcaster, at Bosworth and in Jerusalem make us war weary. Bear with us, I'm reet slow tha knows.
I genuinely didn't completely acknowledge that a HAMAS leader had called for the elimination of Catholics. I'm sure it'd solve it quick if we weighed in.............tossers, coz our record in peaceful settlements is second to none - err... because we've killed the all.
Do you think both the Jews & the Muslims wanna shot at the title in some afternoon soap opera? Get the Chinese and the Russians involved and we'll talk, until that time - sod off.
Kipling realized his error. My government has committed sociocide. The argument that the Tories supported it is bollox because we weren't given the information. I'm currently a bum but in former stuff I was both an auditor and an intelligence analyst. I have significant reservations about about DFC but I'm hoping this is strategy - don't let the guys know who you are - a PM is governed by his conscience and to advertize is folly.
I cannot believe a Tory would have been bribed so easy, yeah money? territory? power? Yeah buddy, we want those things we already have.
But yeah, let's concentrate our minds on a fight that will never be sorted - makes good telly eh? And bloody good hotels! All the Zimbabwe muppets in South Africa - heaven forfend a pair of balls.
Give me a break. How can a murderous terror organisation possibly be misrepresented when they condemn themselves with their own words? And your likening this to a party political video is particularly risible.
All you have to do is look at Hamas's articles of association to know that these video clips represent very accurately what they really believe.
Iain, I'm afraid that your neo-con approach to this situation isn't going to get much support. January 20th is approaching.
Hamas are dreadful but they are the legitimately elected leadership of the Palestinian National Authority. Many people will ask > why does the West only promote democracy when it suits them?
Over a hundred years ago Jackie Fisher said ' the essence of war is violence, and moderation in war is imbecility'.
I accept that some past Israeli policies were insupportable, but what else do you expect the country to do but invade Gaza when its citizens are being blown up by rockets incessantly? I don't think their response is disproportionate and it's quite obvious that at least some of the civilian casualties are the result of Hamas putting women and children in harm's way.
This might protect Israeli citizens for a while at least - and i don't think it'll make their position worse in the long run as Hamas already hate them and won't suddenly start to love them or decide they're decent chaps after all.
Like a number of thoughtful commentators here, I too am deeply disappointed by iain's blind cheer leading on this issue. Hamas' ideology is offensive to comfortable self-righteous liberal Western opinion. So what? Like other 'terrorist' groups before them, they are the product of intolerable circumstances. My father escaped death by a hairs breadth in Jerusalem in 1946. A terrorist group called Irgun were responsible for that atrocity which killed 91 people and their leader later became Israel Prime Minister. In 1978, my daughter walked within a couple of feet of a parked car and into a shop in Brookborough, Northern Ireland about 10 seconds before it exploded. The leaders of the group responsible are now NI ministers. Simplistic cheer leading is a convenient way of ignoring the underlying issue which in this case is the prolonged ruthless repression of a despised 'inferior' semitic but non-Jewish minority together with relentless ongoing evictions and land theft from them by a racist apartheid State.
Hamas is the inevitable product of that treatment. Pompous, self-righteous breast-beating by the Iain Dales of this world may assuage a certain simple-minded discomfort at the REAL terrorism being inflicted on 1.5 million people in Gaza right now; but it destroys any claim they may have had as fair-minded commentators on world affairs.
As for Alfred T Mahan above; some facts. In the seven years prior to the breakdown of the ceasefire in November, Hamas rocket fire killed 3 Israelis. Leaving aside the 800 (and counting) in the past 15 days, have a guess how many Palestinians were killed by Israeli 'security activities' in the same period. Go on - do it!. Do some bloody homework before spouting rubbish.
Oftentimes, when confronted with racism I revert to Mel Brooks in Blazing Saddles: 'Do you want me to shoot that nigger dead?' - I ain't about to apologize for my forefathers religious or territorial, but neither shall I forget their sins.
Get over yourselves and spare the stone & chisel eh?
Every missile fired by Hamas into Israel was designed and intended to kill someone, the fact that they didn’t was some ones lucky day. If Hamas had achieved their aim there would be thousands of dead Israelis. It is in Israel’s best interest to have a peaceful and profitable relationship with its neighbours. However Hamas stated aim is to destroy Israel and that is the stumbling block to peace. The West is pouring money into Gaza and the Palestinian Authority, so I don’t see how commentators can claim that democracy is not being supported.
"Start in 1947 when Israelis deliberately and cynically drove Palestinians out via terror rumours and pre-planned atrocities."
This is historically incorrect. In 1947 the Jews of Palestine offered the Arabs living in the then-Palestine the opportunity to stay in their homes and build a new state together. Many stayed and they are the Israeli Arabs who take full part in Israeli society. Those that left have been deliberately kept in refugee camps by the other Muslim countries who refuse to take them in. The Jews that had been living unitl 1948 in Muslim lands for many generations were cruelly thrown out and not allowed to take any of their possessions or assets to their new country.
A point I made when attending a course in "communication"If you close your eyes and listen to King's I have a dream speech, the rythmn, style and build up to the money shot were all pure Hitler.
Sadly I was once again marked out as a "bad boy" for mentioning this fact and hence besmirching the sainted name of MLK.
People who wish to impose their own religion on the rest of the species are either profoundly stupid or were brought up in nasty, feudal toilet-like parts of the world that most inhabitants are busy trying to leave.
Does that include the Mormons who keep knocking on my door? They seem like such clean lads and I always thought Salt Lake City was supposed to be a fairly pleasant place, if a little boring.
MEMRI is part of the Israeli Hasbara project, and very one-sided. In the case of HAMAS it is, of course correct. It is a terrorist organization.
What MEMRI fails to mention is that HAMAS (i.e. the Islamic Salvation Front) represents a militarization of the Muslim Brotherhood, pushed by Israel in 1987 as a counterweight to resolutely secularist groups such as Fatah and the PFLP.
It also fails to examine how basically decent people can come to support a terrorist organization. Fifty years of Unionist vote-rigging in Northern Ireland was first opposed by activists in the Catholic community by a peaceful civil rights movement. Bloody Sunday (among other things) radicalised much of the Catholic population into providing support for the IRA and Sinn Fein. Similarly, the first Intifada was largely, if not peaceful, a home grown matter of stone-throwers.
Israel managed to stamp that out, then, when GW Bush decided let Israelis do what they wanted, Ariel Sharon deliberately provoked Palestinian feelings and threw away years of peacemaking.
HAMAS is evil, but the Israelis created it, and then drove it mad.
74 comments:
There have always been ranting demagogues in this world. But why don't the Palestinians laugh them off the stage? Don't they recognise a raving lunatic when they see one?
One should publicly ask the PM:
1. You have just given gaza and hamas £7M. When have you given or will give any financial help whatsoever to the civilians in Sderot, Ashkelon, Ashdod or Beer Sheva?
2. Last week Mr Milliband went very urgently to Paris. When did he or the PM run urgently for any meeting or to do anything to help Sderot , the residents of where 6500 hams rockets fell during the last three years?
by the way, why does the FO seem to so called help gaza? They have no oil and mo minerals of any interest to anybody.
Why does nobody call on Egypt to close and blow up the tunnels in rafa?
Ian, I have not spoken to one person in this country that supports Hamas. You are right, they are terrorist thugs.
The problem I have is that almost 300 (Palestinian) CHILDREN have died in this conflict. And remind us, how many Israelis?
Every death is a travesty, particularly those of children, and as Ming Campbell said today, when did violence ever defeat a terrorist organisation in the past?
"This video is for those who, courtesy of the British media, appear to think Hamas is a full of well meaning, innocent people"
*facepalm*
Why is it that people automatically jump to the conclusion that opposition to totally disproportionate and arguably criminal actions by the Israeli's is defacto support for Hamas, who again we think are defacto Teddy Bears.
Every single person I have had contact with about this is well aware that Hamas are a terrorist organisation, and condems them in the strongest possible terms. Yet also condems the Israeli's for their totally disproportionate response.
Israel has turned the Gaza strip into the world's biggest concentration camp. Their actions make me sick. However, don't for one second automatically assume i'm pro hamas because of that view, i'm definately not.
Ok, that video has convinced me that their children deserve to be blown up.
They seem angry about something. Can't imagine what.
Yes, but despite all the inflammatory blather, which appears chiefly designed to keep Hamas in office (their supporters being even more extreme if that's not too hard to imagine), the Hamas leadership have in the past extended overtures to Israel offering recognition (rejected), negotiations (rejected) and UN-brokered talks (rejected).
Of course, we could also browse videos showing extreme religious groups in Israel declaring that all of Greater Israel belongs inalienably to Israel and that all Arabs should be driven off it. This is a very widespread belief in Israel amongst the religious right.
I propose Iain that you start to read some history about the Israel/Palestine situation. Start in 1947 when Israelis deliberately and cynically drove Palestinians out via terror rumours and pre-planned atrocities.
Of course the Palestinians have huge grudges and are angry to the point of derangement - and I don't condone that or anti-semitism - but none of this helps, including your video and bland (or deliberate) misunderstandings and simplistic statements.
We would do better pressuring BOTH Israel and Hamas to come to talks. Your contribution does not help.
Of the casualties over the last few weeks, how many were members of Hamas?
Is Hamas an army or a political party?
Will the IDF tell us soon?
Maybe it will.
The problem I have is that almost 300 (Palestinian) CHILDREN have died in this conflict. And remind us, how many Israelis?
By the count up method the allies were the moral inferiors of the Nazis , a soldier a moral leper compared to a murderer. By the count up method you should stop droning on about Israel defending itself and start handing out woolly jumpers and hot drinks to old people who will be dying at rate of 281 a day this Winter . What would you expect your government to so if someone was throwing bombs at your children , negotiate or sort it . Hamas placed their missiles under schools even the IRA would not have used their own people as expendable blood sacrifices for a media campaign. Sudan got through a Lebanon worth of deaths every ten days , the Congo is right now matching this conflict death for death
You do not care about these people and you are unable to see that by attacking the Jews you are supporting Hamas .This is the middle east not middle England . Hamas brought us to this , everything they demand has been offered to the PLO who walked out .Israel are right , they are our friends and if friendship means anything it means supporting them when its difficult as well as when its easy.
Another thing , peace is impossible with hamas in power , if the heroes of the IDF can remove the scum then Obamah has a chance of settling the region . Its his luck and perhaps everyone’s that his hands will be clean and Israel and Geeorge Bush will do the dirty work
Trumpeter Lanfried: 'Don't they recognise a raving lunatic when they see one?'
An experiment, quite easy in these days when you can get MP3 files of anything.
Download a speech by Hitler, one by a Hamas figure, one of Martin Luther King's 'I have a dream' speeches, and an election speech by Obama. Get someone to play the recordings at random while you listen from behind a closed door. Can you tell which is which?
It's the skilled use of the crescendo technique that can make a crowd do anything, bad or good.
Newmania: well and strongly said.
I grow tied of UK politicos/journos "on the right" attacking Hamas in Palestine.
Yet none of them stand up and go on the record and say they want to reduce immigration into the UK from countries whose populace share the same belief system as Hamas.
The Economic times they are a changing. I have said many times here that unless mainstream politicos - particularly the Tories - start voicing the concerns of people in the UK, they will find that the BNP will poll very well in the Euro PR elections this May.
"What would you expect your government to so if someone was throwing bombs at your children "
Pretty much what successive British governments did when British children were subjected to terrorist bombs. a calm and measured security response couple with political engagement. Perhaps carpet bombing Dublin might have calmed things down sooner, but frankly I doubt it.
"the IRA would not have used their own people as expendable blood sacrifices for a media campaign"
Google "hunger strike". They weren't quite as nice as you seem to think.
Whereas the BBC would have you believe that Hamas is a registered charity, and so the imbalance of reporting does need addressing, these muzzies are cowardly combatants. At the first sign if any real chutzpah they run away, tearing their military uniforms off and their shit stained underpants. Plus they use women and children as suicide bombers.
Frankly, all the video demonstrates is that they are all fur coat and no knickers.
It's a biag a fallacy as the IDF trying to avoid civilian casualties.
@ Newmania
Do you believe the current action by the IDF will actually 'sort it'?
If so, why and how?
I suppose it might hinge on how you define 'sort it', of course.
And who is 'us'?
"I propose Iain that you start to read some history about the Israel/Palestine situation. Start in 1947" - Despairing Liberal
That, in a nutshell, is the problem. Most of the secular intelligentsia & politicos think this started in 1947. It actually started around 1,500 BC with 2 children born of a man called Abraham. The animosity and hatred has grown ever since.
If you think Islam has only hated Jews since 1947 you are incredibly deluded. The 'outrage' about Gaza by the worlds muslims is not about land, it is about being humiliated by the hated & despised Jews and the kafir. There are far far worse battles & atrocities being perpetrated all over the world every day (by & against muslims) but these go unnoticed & unreported because the real seething anger & hatred is reserved for the Jews.
WAKE UP EVERYONE
this video shows exactly the reason why Israel should not undertake morally and (more importantly) strategically incompetent attacks like this one, which plays right in to the hands of Hamas. Collective punishment - which is what the practical effect of the offensive is - is only undermining Palestinian moderate groups who are essential to any possible solution to the region's problems.
The offensive is also doing nothing to prevent attacks on Israel (about 20 Qassam hit today)
Iain,
I am normally a reasonable person, and I am prepared to accept that you may well have been drinking before you put up this post. I don't recall anybody on this or any other blog supporting Hamas (I am quite prepared to speak out against them).
But if you think that speaking out against Israeli aggression is tantamount to supporting Hamas, or it corollary that showing propaganda criticising Hamas justifies the killing of Palestinian children, then you give ample evidence of why the people of Norfolk decided you weren't up to the job of being their MP.
Unsworth - I suppose by us I mean , the world . Hamas , which is my point , have done everything in their power to bring this bloodshed into being.
By "sort it" I mean remove the capability to attack Israel , remove the Hamas infra structure and effect regime change , the true aim(IMHO). We must all hope they succeed.
Perhaps you would the Jews to send a stiffly worded memo ? That might work as well
Just like the Israeli government then.
Both supply services to their thralls as well.
But if you think that speaking out against Israeli aggression is tantamount to supporting Hamas,
Is there some other Party in this conflict then ? I think I missed the Liberal Democrat candidate.
or it corollary that showing propaganda criticising Hamas justifies the killing of Palestinian children,
Hamas not IDF are killing Palestinian Children by putting their weapons under schools and provoking a reaction so as to polarise opinion and serve their insane Jihad .Israel wants peace and security and while it negotiates with its values (Golda Meir ) It at least has some .
It actually started around 1,500 BC with 2 children born of a man called Abraham. The animosity and hatred has grown ever since.
Bollocks its orignins lie deep in the mists of the 20th century.
"It actually started around 1,500 BC with 2 children born of a man called Abraham. The animosity and hatred has grown ever since."
That is the most pathetic reason I have ever heard for not sitting down and sorting out a dispute. At one level the Palestinians and the Israelis are behaving like spoilt children, except the consequences of their actions are far more deadly. Those on both sides who give any credence to any ancient historic, scriptural or religious claim deserve to be treated with contemt.
The one major problem I have with this clip is that it says that Hamas was "founded" in 1988. That is tosh, it was more renamed in 1988. Before that it was the Muslim brotherhod in Gaza and the West bank, and Shin Bett were happy to let them carry out their politcal work whilst quashing Fatah and the PLO at best or were actively supporting them and providing assistance at worst.
But them Memri is as biased a source as you can get. (Not that there are many useful unbiased sources in this conflict).
Trumpeter Lanfried "Don't they recognise a raving lunatic when they see one?"
No, but then there are many who do not either.
I am surprised that Memri think it is worth quoting Hamas as saying God is greater than America. (Allah is Arabic for God as Abba is Aramaic for God, the same God as entered into the covenant with Abraham).
It seems to me all folks who believe in God would believe that God is greater than any one country and indeed greater than them all. However by selectively translating all of the Arabic into English bar the word for God it makes a point where a considered and accurate translation would not. (The same mistake is made on the other side for precisely the same reasons, ignorance and the desire to spread division)
I'm kinda getting used to accepting that this will never be sorted - it isn't NI and to draw similarities is erroneous.
A two state solution is just a plan to divert, but even if that ever occurs, it'll just be a different platform for the aggression.
For all the people whinging now with their faux outrage, best buckle up as when we nuke Iran, you may lose your voice.
"Google "hunger strike". They weren't quite as nice as you seem to think."
Hmm, I seem to recall the IRA hunger strikers being grown men and women of sound (well, you see what I mean...) mind.
Not children or the mentally confused.
"I'm kinda getting used to accepting that this will never be sorted - it isn't NI and to draw similarities is erroneous."
It's understandable, though - it's the nearest we can get to a similat situation here in the UK.
Although the comparison rather falls down when you consider the IRA didn't state a desire to drive every English man, woman and child into the sea...
"Hamas not IDF are killing Palestinian Children by putting their weapons under schools and provoking a reaction.."
Which actually makes Hamas the 'war criminals'. Except to the perpetually hard-of-thinking, of course..
Hamas are the inevitable product of 60 years of expulsions, occupation, repression and a kill rate that has continued throughout at well over 100:1, courtesy of weapons and technology supplied by the self-righteous US and Europe. Like Al Qaeda, their genesis was supported and encouraged by both the US and Israel as a counter to the rise of Fatah in the days when it was considered the terrorist threat du jour - another example of 'Blow-Back ' in other words. Since you appear not to have noticed, they also won the Palestinian elections in 2006. A bit like the Irish NO vote to the EU constitution, it was the WRONG result and they have suffered an ever more draconian blockade ever since.
Terrorists thugs eh? YOU should take off your rose-tinted Zionist specs. It is the entire 1.5 million population of Gaza that is being terrorised to its very core right now with over 800 dead and counting - by IDF terrorist thugs. Now what do you suppose the 'Blow-Back' from that is likely to be? Peace and goodwill to all Israelis? - I seriously doubt it.
Israel one again confirms that it is a racist apartheid State living on borrowed time and stolen land.
To those who write about disproportionate responses I ask one question,
“If you came home and found your wife being raped by an unarmed man, what would you do?”
For example you could do nothing and hope that the rapist doesn’t hurt you or your wife. You could tackle the man and pull him off, but if you do that you might cause him to fight back, and hurt you and your wife. You could hit him on the back of the head with a broom handle, but if you don’t hit him hard enough he might turn on you, take the broom handle from you, and batter you and your wife. You could grab a kitchen knife and stab the man between the shoulder blades killing him outright, but is that disproportionate?
You could hope for the rapist not to hurt you and your wife but his actions don’t give much hope of that, or you can take the initiative, take control of the situation and guarantee the safety of you and your wife. What will it be?
I keep hearing politicians (and others) saying that you cannot beat terrorists with violence.
So why are we in Iraq and Afghanistan?
Look up the Hamas charter. Unless the web copies of this are forgeries (should anyone really treat the web as a primary source?) Hamas is essentially a psychopathic organisation.
The charter gives historical quotes indicating that, for a good Muslim, killing Jews is a religious duty.
Try this:
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him."
However, the Israelis are not above being murderous thugs either.
Iain.
Memri.org has nothing about the Zionist agenda, the Israeli crimes committed since 1948, nor the beliefs of people like Sharon, Lipi, and Netanyahu. And it has nothing about the influence of AIPAC or of the CFOI.
Could you please explain why you take the side of Zionism, since you claim knowledge and expertise on the subject and have visited Israel at their expense.
There's plenty of information available about the evils of Zionism. Why do you ignore it?
Tony
@ Newmania
Well, speak for yourself. You say 'The World' but isn't it the case that 'The World' in the shape of the UN has deplored the continuance of this bloodshed and demanded that the parties desist? You say 'we must hope' etc - well include me out.
I asked 'How' this 'sort it' process was to be achieved - and you don't seem to have an answer apart from reiterating what you believe or say is the IDF objective. Well, we might agree in some measure as to that, but do you believe that what the IDF is doing right now will achieve it? Seems to me that actually they are engendering huge international support for those who object to their continued and largely indiscriminate warfare against the Palestinians.
As to 'regime change' - well we continue to see the consequences of that elsewhere, do we not? And what right does Israel have to remove a democratically elected government?
Interesting that you refer to 'the Jews'. Are all Isrealis Jews and are all Jews Israelis? But your comment emphasises the precise problem - that in some people's minds this is a war between religions. I venture that it is not. This is a territorial dispute - which currently also happens to coincide with an Israeli election.
I'm not condoning the actions of the extremists in Hamas, but I am questioning whether the Israelis can actually achieve what they say they want by this action. After all, haven't they done this before? What was the outcome of that? Lasting Peace? How many enemies does Israel want?
How many enemies does Israel want? Well in this particular scrap Israel has the support of Hamas opponents such as Fatah and the Palestinian Authority. Common causes makes for strange bed fellows.
A very important war aim for Israel is to remove Hamas ability to launch missiles that could at some future stage hit the Israeli nuclear facilities in the Demona Desert. Surely a war aim we can all support?
"You say 'The World' but isn't it the case that 'The World' in the shape of the UN has deplored the continuance of this bloodshed and demanded that the parties desist?"
The UN doesn't represent 'The World'. Much as it would like to think so.
And I don't see them doing anything but talk. When they want to send peacekeepers in to Gaza to stop Hamas firing rockets, get back to me...
"A very important war aim for Israel is to remove Hamas ability to launch missiles that could at some future stage hit the Israeli nuclear facilities in the Demona Desert. Surely a war aim we can all support?"
You'd think so. Wouldn't you...?
@ RonB
Any worries about such capabilities elsewhere in the world? North Korea, South America, Iran, etc?
Or is it the fact that Hamas actually seem to be firing rockets whereas the others only 'could at some future stage' do so? If we're going to institute wars on the basis of potential dangers where do we start - and where does this finish?
@ JuliaM
So who does represent 'The World'?
The UN, that monstrous self-perpetuating gravy train, is the nearest thing we currently have, I think.
I don't understand the 'disproportionate' argument.
The IDF is entitled to use such force as is necessary to end the rocket attacks. So long as those attacks continue the continued use of force is justified.
@Unsworth
For Israel Hamas is a real enemy, not a potential one. That is the difference. If Hamas stopped their actions against Israel that would be the end of it from Israel’s military point of view.
Let us not forget that Hamas was once funded by Israel as a way to split the opposition, and to counter the power of Fatah. I would suggest that it is still in Israel best interest to have an active Hamas for the reasons above, but without the missiles.
How many enemies does HAMAS want? Instead of accepting the teachings of the Qu'ran, the nobility of peaceful co-existence, the requirement for compromise - they use spurious invocations of the teachings of Allah to denounce the Catholics from battles 700 years ago.
If Britain were to follow that methodology we would literally be at war with the entire world.. err.. maybe not some South American countries and Norway but everyone else. Knobheads.
Leadership defn: the ability to utterly screw your people.
Could it be that the lack of a hieracrchial structure in Islam is the problem in that Iman X and Iman Y carry the same authority? I dunno, but seriously, to state you want to demolish Rome isn't, you know, sane.
"So who does represent 'The World'?
The UN, that monstrous self-perpetuating gravy train, is the nearest thing we currently have, I think."
No-one currently does.
And I don't think under these circumstances, we'd want to settle for 'Oh, close enough..', would we?
Iain,
Hamas were trying to negotiate with the Israelis over the vast amount of natural gas off the coast of Gaza.
They couldn't reach a deal. Hence Hamas must die. All of them. Including their children
HERE and HERE
Stick to opening fetes, mate. Bet they didn't menion that when they paid for you to visit Israel, did they?
@ RonB
"I would suggest that it is still in Israel best interest to have an active Hamas for the reasons above, but without the missiles."
That may be so, but it's certainly not achievable by military action. It would require a complete change of approach on both sides. As to being 'without' missiles - well you can get them in almost every supermarket these days. So what's needed herte is for Hamas to reliquish its weapory and to completely change its philosophy, and for the Israelis to find other ways of dealing effectively with their neigbours.
Each rant ends with or containts the usual 'Allah willling' stuff. I suspect Allah is not willing, but I don't know how He thinks. People who wish to impose their own religion on the rest of the species are either profoundly stupid or were brought up in nasty, feudal toilet-like parts of the world that most inhabitants are busy trying to leave.
@ JuliaM
"No-one currently does.
And I don't think under these circumstances, we'd want to settle for 'Oh, close enough..', would we?"
In those circumstances it's clear that there is no forum for world opinion or action - thus the Israelis and Hamas will continue to fight each other until they are, simply, tired of killing each other. In the meantime everyone else must view this warfare as an arcane spectator (or, blood) sport. Well, so be it. That's almost certainly what is happening on the ground anyway.
It's all very sad, but once a bunch of thugs gets into power it will eventually go pear-shaped. Plently of examples in the last century and a few more are still in the latter stages of their demise. The Hamas thugs have learned nothing at all from recent history...
Why am I not surprised?
What's the opposite of misogenist or chauvanist? But i'm starting to think that it may be a better idea if fillies ran the world - I really am.
There's a dude who does a blog called the International Forecaster - now half of it I don't understand and I blagged an Economics degree (and he wibbles on about the illuminati and stuff) but, on the whole, it's bloody grim reading.
But if we are walking head first into a bloody and cataclismic event with the demonization of muslims slowly taking hold, then frankly, I'm just gonna get wasted and have no part of it.
This isn't a resession, no way, look around, this could be the 1930's. We've got our enemy, we've got our extremists - all we need now is unemployment to exceed current projections (and my, haven't they been accurate) for the shit to hit the fan.
And perhaps you will continue ignoring the fact that Hamas is a murderous terror organisation which is committed to killing all Jews and destroying the state of Israel. But you won't take your anti Israel blinkers off will you?
As for your allegation that I am paid by Israel, you should be very careful throwing around disgraceful allegations like that. I was going to delete your comment as it is libellous, but then I thought, no, if he's really that desperate, it says more about him than me. Twat.
Steady on Iain - bad language isn't your bag. Thought you had fun on Sky last night and as for the tie - err...well.
Anywho - I didn't realize they wanna take out the Catholics also. I utterly disagreed with you about the Bishop of Rome's message before new year, (but that's old hat (big hat)), but for an organisation to wander round libeling religious groups who have the temerity to follow a different faith is not only proposterous, it absolutely defiles any acceptance of the one true God.
I've been brought up to believe that all those not baptized are heretics, are going to hell and, well, it's a pity and all. I know Pope Urban II forged diversive movements to unite after Charlemagne upon the Crusades but that was never a war of dominance, of elimination - it was a crusade to get back the Holy land. But these guys want Rome - they want to wipe out Rome. How dare they?
It's a town in the the bottom of Italy that has bugger all to do with scripture, with history, with praise or spirit to them - and to engage in argument that allows any thing other than acceptance that their mission is conversion with force is nieve, bordering on the psychotic.
Why not wipe out Halifax or Tunbridge Wells - oh, that's in there too. Give us a break for crying out loud. There's a difference between being an apologist - whatever the hell that is, and to genuinely observe a faction that utterly disrespect humanity. Just a thought - let's play darts!
"It's a tragedy that the Israelis - a people who must understand better than almost anybody the horrors of oppression - are now acting as oppressors. As the great Jewish writer Primo Levi once remarked "Everybody has their Jews, and for the Israelis it's the Palestinians". By creating a middle Eastern version of the Warsaw ghetto they are recapitulating their own history as though they've forgotten it. And by trying to paint an equivalence between the Palestinians - with their homemade rockets and stone-throwing teenagers - and themselves - with one of the most sophisticated military machines in the world - they sacrifice all credibility.
The Israelis are a gifted and resourceful people who fully deserve the right to live in peace, but who seem intent on squandering every chance to allow that to happen. It's difficult to avoid the conclusion that this conflict serves the political and economic purposes of Israel so well that they have every interest in maintaining it. While there is fighting they can continue to build illegal settlements. While there is fighting they continue to receive huge quantities of military aid from the United States. And while there is fighting they can avoid looking candidly at themselves and the ruthlessness into which they are descending.
Gaza is now an experiment in provocation. Stuff one and a half million people into a tiny space, stifle their access to water, electricity, food and medical treatment, destroy their livelihoods, and humiliate them regularly...and, surprise, surprise - they turn hostile. Now why would you want to make that experiment?
Because the hostility you provoke is the whole point. Now 'under attack' you can cast yourself as the victim, and call out the helicopter gunships and the F16 attack fighters and the heavy tanks and the guided missiles, and destroy yet more of the pathetic remains of infrastructure that the Palestinian state still has left. And then you can point to it as a hopeless case, unfit to govern itself, a terrorist state, a state with which you couldn't possibly reach an accommodation.
And then you can carry on with business as usual, quietly stealing their homeland."
Brian Eno is a musician and music producer. Artists+ Musicians speak up against Israel's war crimes
JOIN BRIAN ENO IN CONDEMNING ISRAEL'S DESTRUCTION OF CIVIL LIFE IN GAZA on Facebook.
Iain,
I cannot believe that you have posted this propaganda without explaining what MEMRI is.
I had never heard of it before, but everything about the clip showed it not to be 'kosher' or rather 'too kosher'.
A couple of seconds on Google led me here;
http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache:0IubuXewPYsJ:rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1511.html+"memri.org"&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=23&gl=uk
This not only shows the extreme partisan nature of MEMRI but quotes several mainstream sources (including the Guardian) critical of selective and inaccurate translations etc.
If you knew the provenance and background of this clip and failed to disclose it then you should be ashamed of yourself.
I really fear that you have completely lost your head over this Gaza crisis.
"committed to killing all Jews"
Really?
Of course it's a partisan organisation. So what?
Canvas - I applaud your consistency and you always make me think. You're often right but it takes me ages to get to where you are.
The problem is Jerusalem - how many times has that been said? Each of the major faiths places great emphasis upon it. The Palestinians (whoever they be - T.E.Lawrence over-ruled by your Woodrow Wislon springs to mind) claim it - they serve a useful purpose for all of us.
The leadership of the Paelstinians has, and on this tiny little point of order - has been fucking woeful. That said - the Israelis have chosen an opportune time to consolidate. I got the impression that the meeting of the 4 Presidents & Prseident elect Obama had bugger all to do with economics - he was checking what the lads had been up to. Carter looked like a bit of an outsider but if he can be brought back in - he's better than an exorcet missile.
It's tough being British sometimes - the slaughter at Ypres, at Tadcaster, at Bosworth and in Jerusalem make us war weary. Bear with us, I'm reet slow tha knows.
I genuinely didn't completely acknowledge that a HAMAS leader had called for the elimination of Catholics. I'm sure it'd solve it quick if we weighed in.............tossers, coz our record in peaceful settlements is second to none - err... because we've killed the all.
Do you think both the Jews & the Muslims wanna shot at the title in some afternoon soap opera? Get the Chinese and the Russians involved and we'll talk, until that time - sod off.
Kipling realized his error. My government has committed sociocide. The argument that the Tories supported it is bollox because we weren't given the information. I'm currently a bum but in former stuff I was both an auditor and an intelligence analyst. I have significant reservations about about DFC but I'm hoping this is strategy - don't let the guys know who you are - a PM is governed by his conscience and to advertize is folly.
I cannot believe a Tory would have been bribed so easy, yeah money? territory? power? Yeah buddy, we want those things we already have.
But yeah, let's concentrate our minds on a fight that will never be sorted - makes good telly eh? And bloody good hotels! All the Zimbabwe muppets in South Africa - heaven forfend a pair of balls.
You seem to have accidentally overlooked the charges that such partisanship extended to misrepresentation etc.
You would not behave with such complete disregard for analysis and contextualisation for some story re the Conservative party.
And if the Labour party put together a similarly bogus montage re the Tories, you'd rightly shout and sneer.
Partisan I don't mind, but without intellectual integrity, all debate becomes futile.
I remain disappointed, as I expect do many of your regular readers.
Give me a break. How can a murderous terror organisation possibly be misrepresented when they condemn themselves with their own words? And your likening this to a party political video is particularly risible.
All you have to do is look at Hamas's articles of association to know that these video clips represent very accurately what they really believe.
Take a look at what happened outside Milan Cathedral on a pro-Hamas demonstration. See the DT here.
@oszpir - actually Gaza has some offshore gas fields which I think British Gas has been exploring. Impossible to develop without peace though.
Iain, I'm afraid that your neo-con approach to this situation isn't going to get much support. January 20th is approaching.
Hamas are dreadful but they are the legitimately elected leadership of the Palestinian National Authority. Many people will ask > why does the West only promote democracy when it suits them?
You sound just like Polly Toynbee or Mad Dog Maguire.
On this issue, you've become a cheerleader rather than a commentator and your blog is the worse for it.
who is 'you'? Iain? unclear
Over a hundred years ago Jackie Fisher said ' the essence of war is violence, and moderation in war is imbecility'.
I accept that some past Israeli policies were insupportable, but what else do you expect the country to do but invade Gaza when its citizens are being blown up by rockets incessantly? I don't think their response is disproportionate and it's quite obvious that at least some of the civilian casualties are the result of Hamas putting women and children in harm's way.
This might protect Israeli citizens for a while at least - and i don't think it'll make their position worse in the long run as Hamas already hate them and won't suddenly start to love them or decide they're decent chaps after all.
Iain,
I just don't get your point here - nowhere in the British press since the conflict kicked off have I read anything that treated Hamas with sympathy.
The Palestinian people themselves, yes. Hamas, no.
Surely you can be strongly critical of Israel's tactics without being a 'terrorist-lover'?
Disappointed to see you take such a partisan stance on this.
Like a number of thoughtful commentators here, I too am deeply disappointed by iain's blind cheer leading on this issue. Hamas' ideology is offensive to comfortable self-righteous liberal Western opinion. So what? Like other 'terrorist' groups before them, they are the product of intolerable circumstances. My father escaped death by a hairs breadth in Jerusalem in 1946. A terrorist group called Irgun were responsible for that atrocity which killed 91 people and their leader later became Israel Prime Minister. In 1978, my daughter walked within a couple of feet of a parked car and into a shop in Brookborough, Northern Ireland about 10 seconds before it exploded. The leaders of the group responsible are now NI ministers. Simplistic cheer leading is a convenient way of ignoring the underlying issue which in this case is the prolonged ruthless repression of a despised 'inferior' semitic but non-Jewish minority together with relentless ongoing evictions and land theft from them by a racist apartheid State.
Hamas is the inevitable product of that treatment. Pompous, self-righteous breast-beating by the Iain Dales of this world may assuage a certain simple-minded discomfort at the REAL terrorism being inflicted on 1.5 million people in Gaza right now; but it destroys any claim they may have had as fair-minded commentators on world affairs.
As for Alfred T Mahan above; some facts. In the seven years prior to the breakdown of the ceasefire in November, Hamas rocket fire killed 3 Israelis. Leaving aside the 800 (and counting) in the past 15 days, have a guess how many Palestinians were killed by Israeli 'security activities' in the same period. Go on - do it!. Do some bloody homework before spouting rubbish.
I recognised that screaming lunatic Obama the minute I saw him.
JD.
"I just don't get your point here - nowhere in the British press since the conflict kicked off have I read anything that treated Hamas with sympathy."
Then you must have missed Julian ( "ooh, those wicked Jews") Manion's biased broadcasts on ITN. What's he want? A job on the BBC, for goodness sake?
Oftentimes, when confronted with racism I revert to Mel Brooks in Blazing Saddles: 'Do you want me to shoot that nigger dead?' - I ain't about to apologize for my forefathers religious or territorial, but neither shall I forget their sins.
Get over yourselves and spare the stone & chisel eh?
Every missile fired by Hamas into Israel was designed and intended to kill someone, the fact that they didn’t was some ones lucky day. If Hamas had achieved their aim there would be thousands of dead Israelis.
It is in Israel’s best interest to have a peaceful and profitable relationship with its neighbours. However Hamas stated aim is to destroy Israel and that is the stumbling block to peace.
The West is pouring money into Gaza and the Palestinian Authority, so I don’t see how commentators can claim that democracy is not being supported.
"Start in 1947 when Israelis deliberately and cynically drove Palestinians out via terror rumours and pre-planned atrocities."
This is historically incorrect.
In 1947 the Jews of Palestine offered the Arabs living in the then-Palestine the opportunity to stay in their homes and build a new state together. Many stayed and they are the Israeli Arabs who take full part in Israeli society.
Those that left have been deliberately kept in refugee camps by the other Muslim countries who refuse to take them in.
The Jews that had been living unitl 1948 in Muslim lands for many generations were cruelly thrown out and not allowed to take any of their possessions or assets to their new country.
Tachybaptus,
A point I made when attending a course in "communication"If you close your eyes and listen to King's I have a dream speech, the rythmn, style and build up to the money shot were all pure Hitler.
Sadly I was once again marked out as a "bad boy" for mentioning this fact and hence besmirching the sainted name of MLK.
Manty says:
People who wish to impose their own religion on the rest of the species are either profoundly stupid or were brought up in nasty, feudal toilet-like parts of the world that most inhabitants are busy trying to leave.
Does that include the Mormons who keep knocking on my door? They seem like such clean lads and I always thought Salt Lake City was supposed to be a fairly pleasant place, if a little boring.
MEMRI is part of the Israeli Hasbara project, and very one-sided. In the case of HAMAS it is, of course correct. It is a terrorist organization.
What MEMRI fails to mention is that HAMAS (i.e. the Islamic Salvation Front) represents a militarization of the Muslim Brotherhood, pushed by Israel in 1987 as a counterweight to resolutely secularist groups such as Fatah and the PFLP.
It also fails to examine how basically decent people can come to support a terrorist organization. Fifty years of Unionist vote-rigging in Northern Ireland was first opposed by activists in the Catholic community by a peaceful civil rights movement. Bloody Sunday (among other things) radicalised much of the Catholic population into providing support for the IRA and Sinn Fein. Similarly, the first Intifada was largely, if not peaceful, a home grown matter of stone-throwers.
Israel managed to stamp that out, then, when GW Bush decided let Israelis do what they wanted, Ariel Sharon deliberately provoked Palestinian feelings and threw away years of peacemaking.
HAMAS is evil, but the Israelis created it, and then drove it mad.
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