What are Liberal Democrats for? They are the flotsam of 20th-century
politics drifting on into the 21st, coagulated from ancient clubs, cabals,
splits and defections from other parties. Not since the 19th century have
they cohered round any great interest. They represent no mass movement, no
breaking of the political mould. Ask a Liberal Democrat what he or she is
for and you get only a susurration of platitudes. Yet thanks to proportional
representation this party gets to choose the governments of Scotland and
Wales. It is Nero for a day...
UPDATE: Stephen Tall asks: What is Simon Jenkins for? HERE.
53 comments:
Simon Jenkins should get out more - he might realise that half the population have below average IQs.
The LibDems stand for freedom. That means a strong emphasis on civil liberties and the rule of law internationally. We have consistently opposed ID cards, for example, whereas other parties flip and flop on the issue. We support military action in defence of international law (Afghanistan) but not in opposition to it (Iraq).
Even in a set of elections that no-one is talking of as a "great success", we were within 1% of our highest ever level of support.
Why on earth would we want to disband?
That's the danger of PR and of course why the LDs want it so much - they would be perpetually in government under the system. At least until we all got sick of the system and voted for a majority government!
LDs are the "none of the above" party - neither Tory or Labour. They have socialist authoritarians and libertarians among their ranks. Presumably this ideological schizophrenia is the reason they cause such havoc when in administration!
SJ is quite right. The Lib Dems should be banned. Its a refuge for nitwits. And all those women who vote for them because they are nice and fluffy and inoffensive should be prevented for voting for them too. Its a disgrace.
Tim - a valiant effort to try to defend your election results - but frankly they were awful for the Lib Dems in the locals here in England.
At a time when Labour is deeply unpopular, the Lib Dems, who usually benefit from some sort of protest vote lost seats all over the place.
I really wonder if Ming will be given the time to take the Lib Dems into the next General Election.
"If you are a LibDem you know your Party is in trouble when you're turned on by The Guardian."
I had to read that a couple of times to work out exactly what you were getting at...!
Jonathan - The Lib Dems losing that number of councillors suggests their activist base will be damaged.
The former councillors may have more time on their hands now, but I think they are less likely to be bussed into target towns like Northampton to grab a headline win, while only standing in 8.5% of the remaining seats in the county.
This election result has been extremely damaging for them and I can envisage some Lib Dems jumping ship to join the Tories in the south and Labour in the north.
The Lib Dems, oddly enough, may be destroyed by PR. In England they have become the major beneficiaries of tactical voting - its almost their reason d'etre (Winning here anyone ?).
In the South they are the yellow socialists, in the North the yellow Tories. Add to that the weird split between a hippy activist base (albeit with shaved beards these days), ruthless and amoral spin merchants as party officials, and upcoming MP's who really wish they had joined the Conservative party if they'd had the courage to stand out against the soft left Tsunami of the late 90's.
First past the post kept them together, but it has also meant selling their souls.
They are already morally dead - its just limbs keep twitching.
Down here all the Lib Dem "winning here" - which of course they didn't - signs have taken a long time to come down. Initially I thought it was defiance - but now I realise they hardly have anyone to do the job.
LibDems don't have souls or actually any beliefs. They may espouse various positions, but beyond the 1p on income tax to pay for the NHS they don't really have any policies. And that particular electoral suicide note has been shown to be a disaster. My guess is we have had the equivalent of 5p on income tax lavished on the NHS annually to what appears to be a negative effect.
With both of the main parties trying to claim the middle ground,the Lib Dems do have much more of a problem of distinctiveness now than for many years.Their enthusiasm for Europe is no longer such an asset and Ming does not inspire confidence.I think that you could argue that the other two parties have more in common with the old SDP element than the Libs themselves.But we need them as long as they espouse liberty.Nulab is unpleasantly authoritarian and the verdict is still out on Cameron's"hug a hoodie" Tories.
A sussuration of platitudes ? Is that a bit like a murmuration of starlings ? [please don't bother to write in..]
I agree that having seen what is now going on in Wales and Scotland, any chance of PR being implemented in the Westminster parliament [or St Stephen as we call it in Wales] has hopefully now disappeared..
I assure you that we ordinary Lib Dems are generally as in possesion of souls and beliefs as anyone else. I find it a bit odd that people complain there is some diversity of opinion within our party... especially when your own party's strength relies upon people believing that as an 'institution' it can happily accomodate eco-hippies, crypto-fascists and anarcho-capitalists. Oh well!
He wrote almost exactly the same article about 18 months ago. I am not even slightly worried when Jenkins rips in the to LDs.
The Lib Dems lost any sense of "reasonableness" when they described the loss of several hundred Councillors as a "mixed bag".
An honest party would just say that it was a bad result for them, acknowledge it and then move on.
The Lib Dem Leadership are in denial.
Man in a shed:
"In the South they are the yellow socialists, in the North the yellow Tories."
I think you'll find it's the other way round.
And of course their results were a mixed bag.
A mixed bag of dogshit, "morning-after" kebab and lager puke, menustration blood, a couple of white chocolate mice, and fingernail clippings.
Some of the contents of the bag are less offensive than others, but, it's still something you wouldn't hold up and be proud of.
The LibDems always seem to me to be a blank surface on which voters project their own desired image.
After 20 yrs of political activity, I know of LibDem voters who are ardently anti-EU, and are shocked when it is pointed out that their Party is consistently (to be fair) pro-EU.
I know of voters who are always LibDem at local elections but Conservative at generals - because the LDs are seen as 'nice', but they want the toughies in charge of the country.
And then there are those who instincts are Old Labour, but who can't quite get themselves to tick the relevant box, so comfort themselves by voting for a Leftist Party by a different name (a creeping form of snobbery, it comes across as).
So different then from the Tories who believe in er well environmentalism & er maybe slightly less business taxes but not enough to do anything & er the EU, but "reformed" some day & now support devolution. Actually when you come down to it all LD ideas rather than Tory ones. Pots kettles & black come to mind.
And then Tim spoils it by saying that the LDs believe in freedom (except for smokers) & the rule of international law (except when totaly destroying it in the cause of promoting illegal war & genocide by their KLA terrorist friends in Kosovo). In fact they are in favour of nanny-statism, blackouts, poverty & the European & indeed world superstate to dictate to us all.
Man in shed: Quite agree about LibDems being the "yellow tories" in the north. This is particularly the case in Liverpool. Although the Conservatives were unable to obtain seats on the council this time, we are already planning our strategy for 2008. We were advised that it may take a few years to re-establish the Conservative Party here, and judging by the overall percentage of votes we received, "The tides of change are flowing up the Mersey". My firm philosophy is that, "Before every great battle the success will ensue from the strategy".
Over the years Liverpool has taken an undeserved and sneering battering from the London and Manchester based media. This has always been unfair and biased, so it is refreshing to read a positive and balanced article such as this : http://www.thestar.com/travel/article/196937
Clearly Liverpool's stock is much higher abroad than at home. Read and have your eyes opened.
I assure you that we ordinary Lib Dems are generally as in possession of souls and beliefs as anyone else.
No damp squib you are not .You are , typically , posing little student opining so as to appear clever and in pursuit of some vile parasitical media career. You have no principles whatsoever, no cause and no beliefs. In this you are typical of the whining pick and mix dip of parasites that is the Liberal Franchise.
It is not a Party. A Party has a purpose , it has beliefs . This is simply a structure for power that any local discontent can use . That is a dirty secret and that is why the professionals who run its campaign openly advocate dishonesty .
I am delighted to see what I have been saying about this disgraceful cancer of the polity is becoming accepted widely . I hope and believe that as the regional quarantine of the West closes up , the realisation that far from being regarded as nice they are regarded as show boating traitors and state apologists will rot support away from thescaffolding . The signs are good
TIM- The Liberals are consistently in favour of illiberality , raising taxes , hounding drivers and business( not that know anything about the latter). They are the are opponents of individual freedom . The lack of victims to puff up their bourgeois self esteem domestically has lead to the strange fact of a " Franchise" only able to cohere about foreign issue on which they have traitorously supported a murdering fascist dictator in a campaign to "Free The Genocidal One" . There is no such thing as International Law and your appeal to it is woefully thin. The Liberals opposed the Iraq war so as to oppose America and the our own interests. It makes them feel important , they support multiculturalism because it makes the feel progressive ( Even when that means supporting ( racism and homophobia). The problem is that adopting mutually contradictory stances across the country is becoming increasingly difficult to maintain. The loathsome wish to hand our democracy over to the courtiers and deal makers that would be PR is the entirely cynical and uniquely consistent domestic policy I can think of . Having no philosophical relation to the state their politics is gesture at best . Propaganda more usually.
Above all it is the assumption of superiority that is hard to stomach. By supporting a Party you commit yourself to supporting the policy you like least. That is the compromise we all make and attempt to influence within. The Liberal has decided he would rather posture and preen than decide. That is the defining fact of the whole tawdry dressing up in yellow imposture .
Thanks for this Iain I have sometimes thought you disapproved of my particular dislike of the dirty yellows .Not entirely it appears
Newmania, you seem to be a very angry man, and your tone is hysterical. I'm not a student, and I have career. That you don't understand liberalism is not my concern.
Thanks for your interest.
We Lib Dems have a refulgent heritage, going back, in modern times, to Jeremy Thorpe. Today we have Simon Hughes, Mark Oaten and Charles Kennedy.
In a world of moral torpor, we need the above shining examples to take a firm stance on principles and temperance - and it is our responsibility as voters to make a straight choice.
After 20 yrs of political activity, I know of LibDem voters who are ardently anti-EU, and are shocked when it is pointed out that their Party is consistently (to be fair) pro-EU.
After 20 yrs of political activity, I know of Tory voters who are ardently anti-EU, and are shocked when it is pointed out that their Party is consistently (to be fair) pro-EU.
In a world where liberals are dragging into a new Sodom, we Conservatives need to stand up and go back to basics. Those of us left who haven't hung ourselves while wanking or been sent to prison for perjury, that is.
Try asking a few Conservatives down at the coal face the same question.
Glass houses and stones!etc,etc.
DAMP SQUIB-Glad to hear of your gainful employment sulky . I `ll have the Big Mac no cheese thanks ......
And the difference- The clash between the Eurosceptic wing of the Conservatives and the misguided but sincere Pro Europe faction was a highly public electoral disaster . Such things are unavoidable when matter of principle must be resolved within a ‘Party’ . Such things do not disturb the Liberal Franchise. That is the difference
Harvey P- The Liberal Party stands for sexual probity does it . You may have a point Simon Hughes’ Bermondsey " Straight Choice" Campaign against the excellent Peter Tatchell has long been admired for its clear message in “ Support of the traditional family” .I cannot say how much I admire that man.
Newmania, the British Conservative Party has always been a coalition of forces which have relatively little in common, and in fact don’t like each other a great deal, but for electoral purposes acknowledge the value of standing under a common banner. Europe is a very superficial example, the battles between the forces of liberty and authority run rather deeper. I don’t say this is wrong, merely ask that you consider it when condemning other parties for having internal differences. But enough of your shrieking - I shall allow you to return to propping up the bar in your soiled tracksuit. Ta-ta.
newmania,
Surely the Tories offer the worst of both worlds in terms of the euro elections. Either they remain in the pro United States of Europe EPP grouping or they leave and become members of their MER which is only a third the size of UKIP's Independence Democracy group, and whose members' total GDP is less than 10% of UKIP's partners.
Clearly, in the Euro elections, a eurosceptic vote for the Tories, whichever path they take, is a wasted vote as it will mean either more members of a pro-eu group or a tiny group that will have no influence whatsoever.
When will Cameron manage a 9 country grouping like UKIP? It's taken him a year to get 2 from tiny new member states, and there is no sign of any partners from large eu countries taking an interest.
And before you jump on me in a 'partisan' way, I think it is very good that conservatives control most local councils, as generally, these people are real conservatives who act on their own conservative low tax etc principles free from the crap from CCHQ. .
"When will Cameron manage a 9 country grouping like UKIP? It's taken him a year to get 2 from tiny new member states, and there is no sign of any partners from large eu countries taking an interest."
'Ello my luuverr!!
Sorry to disagree with you big boy, but once Cammy has formed a moderate eurosceptic grouping in the EP, euroscepticism will soon become a credible and respected position. It will attract many more mainstream parties to its ranks from across the EU on the view that "if the Tories have the balls to do it, so can we".
The inertia is against it forming in the 1st place - no-one wants to make the first move.
They know they'll get tarred with the "fascists, anti-gays and loons" labels to start with.
Anyway, enough of that.
What time you coming round my place tonight?
"Sorry to disagree with you big boy, but once Cammy has formed a moderate eurosceptic grouping in the EP.."
LoL. He formed it on 13th July 2006. Take a look at the official website at europeanreform.eu
It's all gone a bit quiet there, hasn't it?
Keep up! Perhaps you should spend a little less time on the jokes and a little more time actually finding out what your party is up to!
;-)
newmania - having been on the end of some your racist hate speech in the past, can I make it abundantly clear that your deranged ranting ramblings are not required here. Please take them and your Daily Mail down to the local pub, where your skinhead cut and pit bull terrier may feel rather more at home..
Chad interesting stuff sadly I am obliged to indulge in vile and sordid commerce.
"LoL. He formed it on 13th July 2006. Take a look at the official website at europeanreform.eu
It's all gone a bit quiet there, hasn't it?"
It's not up and running yet Chaddy - wait till it actually takes effect. Then we'll see how the cookie crumbles..
"Keep up! Perhaps you should spend a little less time on the jokes and a little more time actually finding out what your party is up to!
;-) "
Oh, you tease. I love it when you talk dirty!
(shall I bring the chocolate moose tonight?)
Simon Jenkins is an elegant writer - if I am "fine wine" then he is vintage port - but he is a dyed-in-the-wool Thatcherite, and everything he writes about politics needs to be seen in that light.
And then you have those horrid orange/egg yolk coloured banners.
They variably say "Winning Here" when they have no chance of success.
Their election literature usually depict a graph that says the Lib Dems are the best placed to win against the incumbent party; yet it is based on some spurious poll or previous elections.
Surely all this smacks of a lack of maturity and self confidence.
"It's not up and running yet Chaddy - wait till it actually takes effect. Then we'll see how the cookie crumbles..
ROTFL. Is that the best you can come up with. Of course it is up and running, move past the front page and actually read Cameron's speech.
"..Today, I am fulfilling the pledge I made in the election.. I can announce the creation of a new parliamentary group for Europe." etc etc
It is up and running, but much like the Norwegian Blue in the Parrot sketch. Two countries formed it, and since they have managed to convince just one (ie any less and it would be zero) more country to join.
Although I do agree with your unintentional underlying point, that for all intents and purposes it has slipped off the perch.
Embarrassing.
Simon Jenkins is an elegant writer - if I am " a fine wine" then he is vintage port -
.....and if I am a can of Tango he is Lucozade sport.
Adieu
* sweeps elegantly from the room *
Harvey Proctor..I am not sure if ID allows dating but fancy a bit of S & M later? Bring a latex chicken.
love Norman
"It is up and running, but much like the Norwegian Blue in the Parrot sketch. Two countries formed it, and since they have managed to convince just one (ie any less and it would be zero) more country to join.
Although I do agree with your unintentional underlying point, that for all intents and purposes it has slipped off the perch."
Chaddy - now your getting nasty!
*spanks own bottom whilst thinking of S&M*
You know the Tory MEP's haven't switched yet. That'll happen in 2009.
Wait & see what happens then ;-)
(can you bring some videos this time?)
Well done dynamite, that's the loudest bang I can remember the Liberals making in the last 10 years.
The Libs had those huge orangey yellow diamonds claiming winning here -but they weren't and they didn't. Isn't that dishonesty??
Simon Jenkins Rips into the LibDems - your description sounds like another review of "The Living Dead"
So what if Simon Jenkins hates us. Look who loves us!!!
Apparently, there's this THIRD political philosophy, aside from socialism and conservatism. It begins with an "l" and ends with "iberalism", yet Mr Jenkins clearly hasn't encountered it before.
I will admit that the merger with the SDP did dmamge to the party ideologically, but i think that it has principles which it stands by. Mr Jenkins' article is a triumph of invective and unsubstantiated claims over actual substance or facts.
Perhaps that's why he doesn't like the Lib Dems.
Chad doesn't understand the difference between a European political party (which is what MER presumably aspires to be in due course) and a political group in the European Parliament.
If MER tried to constitute itself as a political group today, it ould have over 30 MEPs, rather more than UKIP's Independence adn Democracy group, which is clinging to its group status by a thread.
(Just as well the UKIP MEPs so dissatisfied with the present delegation leadership haven't resigned the whip, eh Chad?)
In Scotland they've been part of a coalition with Nulab for the last 4 years,but in the by-election for the Westminster constituency in Gordon Brown's backyard they won by attacking the Scottish Executive's policies!
In the recent Scottish elections they campaigned for "more powers for the Scottish Parliament", but having lost seats and votes and ended up 4th (behind the Tories for God's sake) they refuse to enter into a Coalition with the SNP, ostensibly because the SNP want a referendum on Independence in 3 year's time, but thus giving up the chance to have multi-choice referendum which might give them the additional powers they want!!
I think they've totally lost the plot and the conspiracy theory about not co-operating with the SNP so that Ming can cosy up to GB at the next General Election gathers pace.
" you know your Party is in trouble when you're turned on by The Guardian."
It would appear, Iain, that you are VERY turned-on by the guardian, authoritarian Blairite Tory mouthpiece that it is.
This poor 'Newmania' chappie (no woman could be so dumb or ugly in expression) has presumably repaired to his dungeon to seek out Simon Jenkin's brain in a bag of soggy popcorn?
The Lib/Dems evolved from a combination of Liberals and the SDP party, a group whicjh broke off from Labour in the late 1970s.
The Labour party gradually lost its backbone after that culminating in the disastrous Kinnock years in the early 90s.
Blairs' vision for New Labour is very similar to Roy Jenkins' vision for the SDP.
New Labour and the Lib/Dems are a bit like siblings.
so dumb or ugly in expression
Irony ?
Bed Time Liberals , just time for a story
At the dawn of time ,oh best beloved, two mighty beasts fought over the forest They were called Labour and Conservative . The very trees quaked to their mighty philosophical battles raging first this way and that . They did not even notice the small rat like creature that scurried about picking up the bones and garbage they had spurned . In time however the little cowardly rat grew big enough to be noticed and occasionally the great beasts had to set aside their quarrel to swat it away. The only difficulty was that the cowardly rat never stood still. Just as they swatted here, it would scurry there. This pleased the cowardly rat no end and from that day hence it decided to change its position so quickly that it often often stood in two places at once.
The rat oh best beloved is called The Liberal Party
Surely this 'newmania' creature should be banned? Boring and hysterical is too much.
Javelin said, "Simon Jenkins should get out more - he might realise that half the population have below average IQs." You don't need rto go out to work that one out, Javelin...
I've never sat an IQ test, largely because of the material published by Mensa, which includes such gems as "more people than you might think have above average IQs" (I'm guessing about half of them - am I warm?), and "one person in 20 is in the top five per cent" (you don't say!).
Even if IQ really exists (which I doubt), it makes no claim to be the same as actually knowing anything (which strikes me as mattering rather more), although it does claim to be innate, and therefore no cause for congratulation even from other people, never mind from oneself.
...and there is the cowardly rat..
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