Yesterday I was invited by someone on Facebook to join the group "RIP Jerry Falwell". Here's why I gently declined. Among Falwell's more memorable quotes are these..."AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment
for the society that tolerates homosexuals"
"If you're not a born-again Christian, you're a failure as a human being."
"[Homosexuals are] brute beasts...part of a vile and satanic system [that] will be utterly annihilated, and there will be a celebration in heaven."
A really Christian gent, eh?
47 comments:
Never forget that Falwell got his butt kicked in the Supreme Court by Larry Flynt...exquisite!
Some of these so-called Christians wouldn't want Jesus Christ living next door to them. And He certainly wouldn't be welcome in their clubs. Not that He would want to join.
Falwell wasn't really a Christian though, as it was originally meant to be. And from what he said, he sounded like a psychopath - a born-again psychopath.
That's true, but hoping he rots in hell is a bit much, isn't it? That sort of comment is no different to what you accuse Jerry Falwell of saying.
Anyway, thank goodness the decision whether or not anyone rots in hell is not up to human beings.
Iain, I'm curious.
Are you "100%" gay, or a little bit "bi" as well?
Ie. have you ever had a girlfriend?
There's a school of thought that says no-one is 100% gay or straight, but somewhere inbetween. It's not black & white basically - even if the balance is 98%/2% or something.
(please don't delete - tell me to f*ck off if you like, just curious!)
Didn't he used to be in the Spice Girls, or am I thinking of someone else?
Do you believe in hell, then? Seem to recall you being an agnostic/atheist. Why not just say "I am glad he is dead".
Would you be saying the same sort of thing if you were heterosexual?
Hmmm these Christian Conservatives don't you just love 'em
A really Christian gent, eh?
Er . . . yes actually! Falwell’s worldview is a perfectly accurate reflection of the Bible, and places him on much firmer intellectual and theological ground than so-called “moderate” Christians. The problem is not Falwell. The problem is religion.
This is quite funny.
Iain, Don't like your politics (in fact they pooh), but love your blog. A gold badge for letting the comment by 'personal question'. Whaaat a tosser.
Hoping that a person goes to Hell and rots there does You no credit at all Sir.
He must have had a lot of African Anglican blood in him, so please don't be too harsh.
Myself I was impressed to hear that Ian Paisley always prayed for Jerry Adams in his daily prayers. Surely this approach is far far better than wishing a person to go to Hell
Unless you do not believe in Hell and if you don't then why wish someone to an imaginary place?
the decision whether or not anyone rots in hell is not up to human beings.
Yes it is, Not Now, Hell is earned, just like Heaven. Don't want to go there? Don't be evil. It's not arbitrary.
As a person who tries his best to follow Christianity (and often fails), may I apologise in proxy and disassociate myself from Mr Falwell's comments. I don't even know who he is (was) actually, the name doesn't ring any bells.
The comments you quote in your post are a stupid, ignorant and hurtful oversimplification of Christian teaching. Yes, it is true of course to say that Christianity does have issues with homosexuality (and it also has issues with heterosexual adultery/promiscuity and all kinds of other behaviour; homosexuals are not "singled out" in this regard). However, Mr Falwell's comments should not be held as indicative of Christian attitudes towards one's fellow human being. At least, I hope not.
Actually that's an interesting question: Iain, have you found that in general, Christians whom you have met or dealt with in your everyday life, and who have known you to be homosexual, have (when the issue has arisen at all) left the same bad taste in your mouth?
Anyway, this is one of those polarising debates and I'm not sure if the media of blogging/commenting on blogs is the best way to effectively communicate, on this one. People get very agitated, and think that all Christians are hateful gay-bashers, but the reality is more complicated. In a detailed conversation about the issue, I would probably start by saying some things which you would not find easy to agree with, yet placed in the overall context of the Christian "message" you would realise that I was being no more condemnatory towards yourself than towards my own self, and that the totality of the "message" was ultimately one of love, not hate.
But as I say, I'm not sure that this can be fully explained in a blog comment.
Iain. I like your blog but don't like this post.
I know nothing about Jerry Falwell but from your quotes he doesn't sound a very nice man.
Nonetheless I am disturbed that a blogger of your stature and maturity starts wishing people to rot in hell.
Did Falwell actually hurt anyone or did he just say a lot of hurtful things ? Wouldn't Voltaire have defended Falwell's right to speak ?
What if Falwell turns out to have been right?
Your getting your politically correct knickers in a twist again Iain for at least the second time this week.
Are you a militant gay, Guardian-reading lefty/liberal "activist" or a wannabe Tory MP. It's beginning to seem like the former though perhaps lefty militant gays is what Cameron wants in his big tent. Not sure that the voters do though.
On a more serious point, Gordon "Big Baby" Brown gets the coronation he wanted and planned for. Banana Republic here we come.
The thought is almost enough in itself to start believing.
Christopher Hitchens does a superb takedown of Falwell here
http://www.slate.com/id/2166337/
Iain, have you found that in general, Christians whom you have met or dealt with in your everyday life, and who have known you to be homosexual, have (when the issue has arisen at all) left the same bad taste in your mouth?
That comment's just begging to be abused ;)
now now said...
That's true, but hoping he rots in hell is a bit much, isn't it?
What does it matter? It's not like the place actually exists...
Your heading is entirely reasonable. He was a hateful man who wanted gay people to suffer in the most horrible ways imaginable. And that was was he said in public - can only imagine what he thought in private.
Speak to the devil Falwell, he will understand.
Iain, you are hopeful at some stage I believe of becoming a Tory MP. If you ever achieve this gaol, if indeed that is still your desire I hope you show better judgment than you did when you posted this topic. If you believe in Hell it follows you probably believe in God. It would have been better if you had expressed a wish that when he went to his judgment he had repented any wrongdoings; even those ones perceived by people like your good self.
laurence boyce: Falwell's view is not an accurate reflection of the Bible at all. Although the Bible is against homosexual relations, it does not say that they are any worse than any other sin. As for AIDS being the punishment from God for homosexuals, where in the Bible does it say this is the case? It may talk of the consequences of sin and our fallen world, but where does it say that it is punishment from God?
I'd guess that Facebook's RIP JF would be calling him **** and **** wouldn't they? irony?? Anyway El Tom at Newer Labour got your headline many hours earlier than you did ...
Anyway the **** will rot in the ground as there is no heaven and there is no hell. Hell is other people. One less piece of hell on this earth.
Life is hard, then you die, and that's it. Meaning you don't have to poke your nose into other people's bedrooms and judge them against your bigoted standard for your heaven.
jailhouselawyer said...
Didn't he used to be in the Spice Girls, or am I thinking of someone else?
May 16, 2007 8:05 PM
Nah! jailhouse, they axed him for asking for a bucket of coal.
Go on then Iain you might as well press delete now. I know that you don't like your pal jailhouse being ribbed about axes.
There again, you two are well suited. You wish Falwell to Hell and jailhouse previously wished an early death on me in another posting.
Nice people.
Birds of a feather eh!.
That’s right Noël – Falwell’s view is not an accurate reflection of the Bible, because the Bible calls for homosexuals to be put to death, whereas I don’t think that even Jerry went that far in public. No worse than any other sin? Oh, well that’s all right then.
Laurence Boyce.
You ignorance of the Bible does you no credit.
When you write "The Bible" what do you mean? Where did you read that "homosexuals should be put to death"? You didn't.
Did Jesus say that? No he did not. The Bible says that Jesus Christ came into the world to save it, not to condemn it.
Try not to use every single mention of God or Christianity on this blog as a basis to vent your phobia of it. It does not serve the debate and makes you look like a tosser.
Read carefully what Tom Tyler has to say and learn.
As for Falwell, here is a man who had extreme views about a children's character made from velcro and fake fur. Put him in the bin marked "bonkers" and move on.
I remember one TV comedian saying something along the lines of "I have no need to become a born again Christian because I got it right the first time around".
But joking aside. Jerry Falwell? For someone who was supposedly a man of God he displayed nasty intolerance and utter hypocrisy. That does not square with my idea of Christianity.
Weasel, I’m very familiar with the Bible I’m afraid. I read that homosexuals should be put to death in Leviticus 20:13. And Jesus said that not one “jot or tittle” of the law shall pass away. The bottom line is that you do not have to work at all hard to justify the worldview of Jerry Falwell from a biblical perspective. By the way, I don’t mind if anyone thinks I’m a tosser. Just as long as nobody mistakes me for a religious man.
Well, I can say for sure, LB that we shall both have the pleasure of putting our beliefs, and our understanding of Biblical truth, to the test.
No, Laurence has a right to interpret the Bible as he sees it, and to question it. He has every right to call it into question, and Christians must do their best to respond to that.
Laurence, as you say, the Old Testament part of the Bible (in particular the book of Leviticus) contains some very harsh and (to our modern minds) intolerant laws and rulings. As far as I am aware, these rulings relate to the state of Israel alone, and were meant only for the time they were written in, not as a "catch-all" law for us now.
According to the "New Testament" part of the Bible, when Christ came, he effectively overruled many of the old laws of Leviticus. It's not so much that he said that those old laws were wrong, but rather that he said that they were "pro-tem" rulings meant for one certain nation at a certain point in time, and that now, he would give a better way, to be followed by every nation. A full and detailed reading of the Bible is necessary, in order to fully understand the implications here.
Just as the Muslims' Koran contains earlier and later rulings, and the latter overrule the former, so it is with the Christian Bible. The "Old Testament" generally contains rulings which were appropriate for the Jews at that time in history, and the "New Testament" contains a fuller, more spiritual way of worshipping God, that is relevant to today, and which was pointed to and apprehended, in the older writings. Therefore the old Biblical laws which called for the death of various "sinners" has been upgraded by the "New Covenant" of Christ, which offers a new forgiveness and salvation to all humanity, not just Israel.
Complex stuff, huh! Of course, feel free to call it all a load of bull if you like, but on the other hand, it's an interesting text to study!
I'm just looking for the part of the Bible preaching racial segregation and the apartheid system. Haven't found that part of Falwell's sermon yet...
Ah, so the Old Testament doesn’t apply anymore. I wonder then why the Church of England is tearing itself apart over the issue of homosexuality? Somebody should really tell them that Jesus amended the old law 2,000 years ago. But then again, Jesus predicted the end of the world within the lifetime of his followers, so I wouldn’t listen to anything he said if I were you. By the way, today is Ascension Thursday which, as I’m sure you know, is the day Jesus blasted off into space like he had a rocket up his arse. A load of bull? You decide.
Jerry Falwell was a 'Christian Zionist' and according to Abe Foxman of the Jewish Defence League, "a dear friend of Israel"; so not all bad then.
And by the way, as the Old Testament is the Jews' version of their History and Sacred Law, by what right do Johnny Come Lately Christians dispute or even endorse it?
What a creep.
Auntie Flo'
Iain, despise your politics with everything I've got, but 100% with you when it comes to bigot bashing.
Some of Falwell's comments are no worse than some of the comments you've allowed to be posted on this blog about Scottish or Welsh people, Iain.
Well then, thank God no-one thought something like clause 28 was a bad thing then, eh?
Oh... I see. Ho Hum...
I loved this letter in the Scotsman:
Your report on the death of the US evangelist Jerry Falwell (15 May) omitted to include his deliberate "outing", in a 1999 article, of the Teletubbies' Tinky Winky as gay.
One is inclined to believe that Tinky Winky's sexual orientation was a private matter, and if Tinky Winky wished to remain in the closet with the naughty Nu-Nu, then he/she/it should have been allowed to do so.
You also fail to point out that millions of Christians in the United States distanced themselves from Falwell, seeing him very much the pinnacle of the Christian "wrong" rather than the Christian Right. Even the devout Jimmy Carter once said of him: "In a very Christian way, as far as I'm concerned, he can go to hell."
ALISTAIR McBAY
National Secular Society
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkAPaEMwyKU
Christopher Hitchens on Falwell. Well worth a watch.
"If you're not a born-again Christian, you're a failure as a human being."
I see nothing wrong with that remark. Please explain Mr. Dale?
BTW: Laurence Boyce is one of the most ignorant pieces of shit I have come across on the blogsphere, and is saying something considering the competition from morons like Jo Salmon, Antonia Bance, Don Paksini, Bob Piper, Helen Watters and Terry Kelly.
Actually, I just hope that Jerry Falwell is neither burning in hell or sitting on a celestial cloud somewhere, but just dead and buried ...
Laurence Boyce is one of the most ignorant pieces of shit I have come across on the blogsphere . . .
Very Christian C4, I’m sure. The Bible is simply stuffed full with all manner of obscenity and barbarism. It’s no wonder that some people are complaining about it. But you list the “Holy Bible” among your favourite books, as well as the utterly risible “The Bible Code.” Ah well, I guess I’m just too ignorant to understand . . .
laurence boyce- I think you have quite a complex on this subject ! I suspect you are closer to belief than many others who have contributed here.
Jesus loves you even if Jerry Falwell doesn't !
You to Iain !
I was raised a Catholic and have plenty of first hand experience of the damage religion can do. If that is a “complex” then so be it.
Jesus doesn’t love me. Jesus is just a dead bloke.
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