I think Downing Street is in complete confusion and I think the Prime
Minister has got to make absolutely clear when he knew about this whole issue.
But, to me, what matters for the Defence Secretary is he has to pass two tests.
First, he has to show he still has the confidence of members of our Armed
Services, who are working so hard for our country. And secondly he has to give a
full account of himself to the House of Commons on Monday. And I think it is
very important he does that.
This is what proper Opposition is all about - hold the government to account, show you're on the side of the people affected, and then gently stick the knife in without anyone realising you've done it.
I'm not sure I would like to be Des Browne on Monday. But just as important as Browne's performance will be that of Liam Fox. He must not go over the top in his language, yet he needs to make clear the seriousness of Browne's crass decision. It should be an interesting afternoon.
32 comments:
Blair being asked to speak/tell the truth Iain. You are having a laugh.
Foxy is being kept away from the mic. The fact it needs three of them to keep nagging on about a mistake which has been admitted is clear enough. Cameron doesn't trust his Shadow Mimicsters with even shooting fish in a barrel. He's another control freak egotist. The extent of the mistake is being exaggerated also. The Tory fuss is more embarrassing than the ludicrous bank holiday errors of letting the hapless tars do it. The Tory press have naturally been at the forefront. Where are they saying: "No" and "We don't want to damage British interests". The damage is minimal. Probably hardly reported elsewhere. But getting caught, being arsey about Iran (as cameron, Fox and all are, as well as Blair etc) well these are the real problems. Coo, you're hitting the buttons today. They are not being statesmanlike. They are being sharkey bastards.
It seems to me that Labour have been doing a lot of 'governing by hindsight' lately.
First John Reid regretted the management of the Home Office by his predecessors.
Then Patricia Hewitt regretted the problems created by her mismanagement of the junior doctors crisis.
Now Des Browne regrets his decision to allow the Navy 15 to sell their stories.
It seems only Gordon Brown refuses to express regret for his pension decisions in 1997 despite being warned against them and despite their evident failings.
Wouldn't life be so much simpler if we could all get by in life by 'hindsight'...
I disagree and will not go along with this whole “Reasonable " and "temperate" conspiracy. I can recall the Conservative Party being vituperatively blamed for the Bulger killing by Tony Blair and to great effect , as emblematic of the moral bankruptcy soi disant of the Conservatives. It isn’t so much the story, in this case the Jeux sans Frontiere its a cop out team , it’s the iconography.
We have a government that has disregarded the loyalties that held people together and replaced them with state incompetence at huge expense. All the elements are here. Cowardice , shallow media driven shenanigans and the suspicion that it was a jobs worth scramble in the MOD which lead to the further national humiliation. It is the very signature of this government and a proper opposition ,which we do not have, would have said so loudly and venomously.
What we have is something else . We have a group of selfish amoral professional politicos keeping quite and appearing “Temperate” in the hope the Government will lose for them and they will be the superstars they feel they deserve to be. In general the performance of the shadow cabinet has been pitiful and for these reasons hence the great weariness of the Party and the voters with Cameron despite his flattering poll leads. As the Neew Statesman pointed out today The Conservatives are still dead in the |North and as long as that persists they are unlikely to form a government .
Speaking of the New Statesman it is instructive how often writers like Cathcart appear to “Reasonable ness “ and “ Temperate Language”. In the past when the left were morally in the ascendant they would have said the reverse . Now they are a squalid collection of establishment apologists they want everyone to take the heat out of the argument and discuss pragmatism. What a siren call that is for the aspiring A-list invertebrate !
No . All out attack is the right thing to do now and the excuses found for those politicians to careful; of their futures will not wash . Cameron I can forgive but not the rest of them.
Did you even hear Hague on the wireless this morning, Iain?
At one point he implied the PM was a liar and had to backtrack sharpish. He then proceeded to wrangle with the impossible task of building an argument where the government were wholly responsible (as opposed to the Navy taking responsibility for their contribution to the debacle). And then he conceded that the boats have to continue to patrol the area (with the possibility of further run-ins with the Revolutionary Guard’s navy). What is Hague’s point exactly?
Should the Minister of Defence really resign over a trivial, internal decision at a time of war? How very noble of Her Majesties opposition.
Des Brown made a balls-up of not vetoing the Navy’s intentions to allow the sale of stories on Friday, indeed it is quite possible that Blair wanted the stories out, but the Tories are constructing a straw man. And a piss-poor job they’re doing too.
The Tories are quite clearly making political capital out of a very embarrassing situation for HM forces. I thought Cameron was going to put an end to ‘Punch and Judy’ politics?
Shame on you Iain.
Chris Paul, I think you need to lie down in a dark room with a towel over your head. Your posts on this blog are becoming increasingly insane.
Aaron, shame on me? what on earth have I done? I have given you my view, you've expressed yours. Shame doesn't come into it. Grow up.
Iain,
Come on dear boy. Stop being so precious.
I merely implied that you should hang your head in shame for calling this straw man arguement "An Example of Good Opposition."
Now then, shall we play nice now?
I heard Crick on Newsnight last night say that No 10 had told him the prime minister had read about the sailors selling their stories in the paper on Sunday morning "like the rest of us". But I'm fairly sure the news was announced on the BBC radio news the previous evening (Saturday) because someone rang me up having heard it, fairly incandescent.
Iain, I agree with you. Cameron and Fox are doing good jobs. I did not hear Hague on the radio this morning so can't comment there.
This is however not a minor incident that will be forgotten quickly. It is being reported in other countries and makes our armed forces and the country by extension look very bad indeed.
At some point people will start calling for heads, (I already have on my blog) but it is right that Cameron should allow Des to have his day in the commons.
Iain I am sorry to say that Liam Fox was pathetic on Sky News last night. He was so weak about it all, not what i expected from the opposition He was making excuses FOR Browne.
It was just so wet.
Very dissapointed of Norfolk
We have a group of selfish amoral professional politicos keeping quite and appearing “Temperate” in the hope the Government will lose for them and they will be the superstars they feel they deserve to be. In general the performance of the shadow cabinet has been pitiful and for these reasons hence the great weariness of the Party and the voters with Cameron despite his flattering poll leads.
Spot on NM. The debate on ConHome about tax cuts is indicative of this as well.
The fact it needs three of them to keep nagging on about a mistake which has been admitted is clear enough.
Chris Paul is spot on here. For some reason, Dr Fox is not being allowed to lead the attack on his opposite number as, say, David Davis did in the case of Charles Clarke and the foreign prisoners debacle last year. I hesitate to speculate on why that might be, especially on the blog of someone who knows far more than I do about inner Tory machinations, but I can't help but think it might be linked to that flurry of speculation a while back that Fox's days in the shadow cabinet were numbered and that the people around Cameron were out to steadily undermine him. He certainly must have felt pretty undermined standing like a nodding donkey behind Cameron last night as the Tory leader ratcheted up the attack.
I spoke to a young soldier (about 18 yrs old) who is off to Afghanistan soon.
He said to me." We are not an Army any more we are a defence force. He said the pay is crap, the accomodation is terrible, all our equipment is second hand...." I won't bother to tell you the rest ....you can guess.
That's what happens IMHO when defence spending is reduced to 2pc of GDP
Chris Paul: You call it "a mistake which has been admitted". Well, sort of. "I take full responsibility for this mistake which I was only told about afterwards and had nothing to do with." Liars and crooks.
Aaron you smug oaf thats the way Government and responsibility works. If the BBC forgets that when the Blair is in the dock it would be nothing new.
I am relieved that the shadow cabinet are picking up the political capital that the Blair has left for them . How funny the hypocritical praters of the left are. Gordon Brown goes to fantastic lengths to hide the true extent of the national debt by hiding a change to international accounting deep in the budget ( to avoid counting PFI debt). He taxed Pensions in such an opaque way that it took years for the Public to notice. In this and many other way we are constantly at war with the dark arts of government deceit and obfuscation. Gordon Brown for example has laughably taken credit for prolonged growth when we are in fact the slowest growing nation in the Anglosphere Along comes a nice simple example of incompetence and cowardice right in the public eye and they are surprised that political capital is made . It stands for all the other cowardice and lies the public dimly perceive.
The end of Punch and Judy Politics is a not especially desirable Liberal Party mouthing and while the Labour Party remains in power.......
THATS THE WAY TO DO IT !!!!!
Liam Fox should just shut up he is a waste of time
Let an ex soldier have a go at Browne Patrick mercer would have had the moral authority (shame potato head sacked him)
David Davis has the moral authority
Nicholas Soames has the moral authority Andrew robathan, all would be more than a match for this bumbling scottish talent vortex Des Browne or the pancaked tosser that he works for.
I fear that we have been without an effective opposition for too long. Moral leadership from politicians generally (is that oxymoronic?)has been totally absent and this is now appearing in the significant issues that we face as a country (or three).
The decision taken by Royal Navy/Defence Secretary/Blair would not even have been a tabled option 10 years ago. That is how far judgement has deteriorated.
I believe the opposition to be just as guilty, and with absolutely no sign of improvement. What chance we can move the kids over and let some grown-ups run the country?
'Newmania' - let's not get personal, ok?
I'm sorry but where did I defend the government's handling of the incident? You wouldn't be building a straw man would you?
My criticisms were of Iain's framing of the Tory response.
And, also, it wasn't me who claimed that Slippery Dave would put an end to ‘Punch and Judy’ politics but Cameron himself!
So, you are either:
1. trying - yet again - to build a straw man (seems to the fallacy of choice nowadays)
2. commenting when you haven’t read my post (tut tut)
3. a bit simple (if so, I apologise)
So please, before you wade into someone else’s discussion, try and clarify the facts before make yourself look a bit foolish.
Dear the Hitch: Whats a pancaked Tosser? If it's good can I have another for me mum.
Browne admits:
Allowing publication for cash was a wrong decision
He bears the responsibilty for it
What he doesn’t admit is that it was media and political pressure that made him change his mind. Otherwise he would not have countermanded his original acquiesence in the decision of the Second Sea Lord,since it was seen by the Government, Blair included probably, as useful propaganda even though it might have led to multiple distortions of the truth.
What happened to ministerial responsibilty? What happened to the principle of tendering your resignation if you admit a disastrous wrong decision?
Aaron
You obviously consider elegant witty in fact you sound like the raddled old queeny Ballroom Dancer from Hi de Hi ? Merely this and clarify that…. painful .
Yes yes I get your little point and if that’s all you mean it was hardly worth the trouble .
Aaron, wonderful stuff (of sorts)
''Newmania' - let's not get personal, ok?'
Then...
'So, you are either:
3. a bit simple (if so, I apologise)'
Hilariously bad mate.
On my blog, I have started an occasional series entitled "Thus Speaks The Blair Generation".
Fitst up, 20-year-old Arthur Batchelor, to whom the defence of this Realm has been entrusted, feels that he was humiliated by the Iranians because they made him wear FAKE Hugo Boss, darling.
Any more? davidaslindsay@hotmail.com
Saw Fox on the box earlier and he made a reasonable fist of it.
Now listen all NuLab apologists - the game is up - no one believes a word any Government Minister says any more. You can't fool all the people all the time, and now you can't fool any of the people any of the time.
Read any of the comments on the Forces' websites lately? To give a memorable quote which was also featured on ITV News last night "Government? Cowards and Liars all of them".
To suggest that control freak Tony Blair didn't know about the stories being sold until he "read it in the Sunday papers" insults our intelligence. I saw this on teletext the night before, and would think the Prime Minister tends to hear news before I do. Suggesting that Des Browne (aka totally useless Minister unable to make a coherent statement) "decided" such a thing himself without reference to the boss insults it twice.
"With hindsight" it wasn't a good idea? It was never a good idea because it went against the rules of common decency and dignity. Does no one in NuLab have ANY idea what those words mean?
I think the whole thing was intended to take the heat off the MOD and Tony Blair for allowing the sailors and marines to be taken hostage in the first place, and to try and spin the release as a triumph for Blair.
Hasn't worked too well, has it?
Newmania: -
You obviously consider elegant witty in fact you sound like the raddled old queeny Ballroom Dancer from Hi de Hi ? Merely this and clarify that…. painful .
(Having deciphered what I think you meant to type)
Ah! I'm on the right blog then, no?
Yes yes I get your little point and if that’s all you mean it was hardly worth the trouble .
So you were wrong then? Strange, it somehow does feel worth it.
Anonymous @ 5.16,
Hmmm. I think I offered Newmania 3-choices. It is down to him, and him alone, as to whether or not he is simple. I make no such commentary myself. ;o)
Thanks for your corroboration, Jafo, I was starting to think I had imagined hearing the news item about selling the story on the Saturday evening - it's just laughable that Blair can claim the first he heard of it was when he read about it in the Sunday newspapers.
BTW, I've heard Faye Turney being compared to Jade and I think that's unfair - Jade would have put up much more of a fight.
Yes - it's 'Carry On-Hello Sailor':
Kenneth Williams is Tony Blair
Charles Hawtree is Des Browne
Sid James is Sir Ivor Smallcock, First Lord of the Admiralty.
How our enemies in the 'Axis of Evil' countries must be shaking in their sandals as the 'War on Terror' is conducted by our tough, kick-ass politicians backed up by the dedication of the brave sailors of Shatt al Arab. 'They gave us blankets which were prickly' said one of them. Sounds a bit like the fate of the inmates of Guantanamo Bay, where I am sure similar atrocities happen.
In order to try to salvage something positive from the fiasco, perhaps the money from the stories sold could be put towards better equipment for our armed forces. Some decent compasses or up to date charts of Iraqi/Iranian territorial waters would be a start.
Still grinding out the Lady Bracknell shtick are you Aaron ?. You said that the Conservatives made political capital out of the government’s disgraceful misjudgement . I took you to mean that you disapproved. If you are only squeaking “they are “,then so what . Incidentally it is not at all strange that you should find the long sigh of your own flatulent drivel so satisfying.
Glad you liked it .
Cheerio
Anyone seen the story in the Daily Mail today from a "senior source in Whitehall" that the MOD were planning how the hostages' stories could be sold before they were even released?
Suggests both Des Browne and Tony Blair were telling porkies, doesn't it? Dear me, who'd have thought such a thing........
Lets face it.
It's not really Browne who has made the biggest mess but the MOD via the Royal Navy.
And it would appear the Navy want to fight a PR battle by proxy against Iran using sailors' mutterings in the media.
Frankly, the First Sea Lord should go BEFORE Browne does... cos it's the FSL's prime responsibility for getting into the mess (capture) and compounding it (Press).
As neither Government or Quangos or Civil Service "do" accountability, then FSL is safe. So is Browne imo.
Do we have an Opposition? Oh yes: the LibDems..
The Conservtaives are as usual asleep dreaming of what benefits they'll get under Buggins Turn.
Or so it appears to me as a cynical voter.
Bloody useless..
I hope that the Opposition will keep up the questioning on Monday when Des Browne needs to make good on his acceptance of responsibility.
Two key questions:
1. Will there be a Board of Inquiry to investigate the incident? It would be astounding if there was not. For the uninitiated, this is a board of officers that investigates an issue, normally serious.
2. What was the precise involvement of the Ministry of Defence and Cabinet Office/Downing Street ministers, officials and advisors in the decision to allow the sailors and marines to sell their stories, and in any negociations with media organisations?
a. Service personnel are barred from unauthorised contact with the media under Queens' Regulations.
b. The Ministry of Defence centralised all media operations a few years ago. The Navy, Army and Royal Air Force Chiefs and their subordinate commanders have no staff under their command with media responsibilities. All media operations are the responsibility of MoD, so the Navy could not have unilaterally decided to permit this.
c. It is inconceivable that journalists would not have used their MoD/Downing Street contacts to try and get an exclusive. Likewise, it is inconceivable that MoD/Downing Street would have not tried to find a sympathetic outlet for the stories.
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