Friday, October 23, 2009

Labour Is Responsible for the Rise of the BNP

Rather hilariously, Bob Piper blames the Conservative Party for the rise of the BNP. A neat deflection tactic, as I note he fails to mention anywhere on his blog the fact that the Labour leader of the council on which he serves has been charged with theft today.

I'll tell you what is responsible for the rise of the BNP. It's a Labour government that has failed the communities which is used to regard as its client state. It's a Labour government, which we are told tonight by one of its own advisers, that deliberately encouraged as much immigration as possible in order to make Britain a truly multicultural society. Well that worked well, didn't it?


The huge increases in migrants over the last decade were partly due to a
politically motivated attempt by ministers to radically change the country and
"rub the Right's nose in diversity", according to Andrew Neather, a former
adviser to Tony Blair, Jack Straw and David Blunkett.

He said Labour's relaxation of controls was a deliberate plan to "open up the UK to mass
migration" but that ministers were nervous and reluctant to discuss such a move
publicly for fear it would alienate its "core working class vote". As a result,
the public argument for immigration concentrated instead on the economic
benefits and need for more migrants.

Critics said the revelations showed a "conspiracy" within Government to impose mass immigration for "cynical" political reasons. Mr Neather was a speech writer who worked in Downing Street for Tony Blair and in the Home Office for Jack Straw and David Blunkett,
in the early 2000s.

Writing in the Evening Standard, he revealed the "major shift" in immigration policy came after the publication of a policy paper from the Performance and Innovation Unit, a Downing Street think tank based in the Cabinet Office, in 2001. He wrote a major speech for Barbara Roche, the then immigration minister, in 2000, which was largely based on drafts of the report. He said the final published version of the report promoted the labour market case for immigration but unpublished versions contained additional reasons, he said.

He wrote: "Earlier drafts I saw also included a driving political purpose: that mass immigration was the way that the Government was going to make the UK truly multicultural. "I remember coming away from some discussions with the clear sense that the policy was intended – even if this wasn't its main purpose – to rub the Right's nose in diversity and render their arguments out of date."

The "deliberate policy", from late 2000 until "at least February last year", when the new points based system was introduced, was to open up the UK to mass migration, he said. Some 2.3 million migrants have been added to the population since then, according to Whitehall estimates quietly slipped out last month.

On Question Time on Thursday, Mr Straw was repeatedly quizzed about whether Labour's immigration policies had left the door open for the BNP. In his column, Mr Neather said that as well as bringing in hundreds of thousands more migrants to plug labour market gaps, there was also a "driving political purpose" behind immigration policy. He defended the policy, saying mass immigration has "enriched" Britain, and made London a more attractive and cosmopolitan place.
But he acknowledged that "nervous" ministers made no mention of the policy at the time for fear of alienating Labour voters.

"Part by accident, part by design, the Government had created its longed-for immigration boom.
"But ministers wouldn't talk about it. In part they probably realised the conservatism of their core voters: while ministers might have been passionately in favour of a more diverse society, it wasn't necessarily a debate they wanted to have in working men's clubs in Sheffield or Sunderland."

The chairmen of the cross-party Group for Balanced Migration, MPs Frank Field and Nicholas Soames, said: "We welcome this statement by an ex-adviser, which the whole country knows to be true. "It is the first beam of truth that has officially been shone on the immigration issue in Britain."


The cat is well and truly out of the bag.

Someone in an earlier thread reckoned that most BNP voters are ex Conservatives. Oh how I laughed. Funny, I hadn't realised that Blackburn, Burnley, Rotherham, Dewsbury, Dagenham and Barking had ever been Conservative constituencies. I don't know if any academic work has been done in this area, but as a guess, I'd say that 80% of BNP voters are ex-Labour voters. That may not always have been the case, but I'd bet a Pound to a penny it is now.

Far left Fascist parties like the BNP invariably do well under left wing governments which fail left of centre voters. Le Pen rose to prominence in France under Mitterand. The National Front in this country gained traction under Labour in the late 1970s, and now the BNP is on the rise here again.

I would venture to submit that this is no coincidence.

173 comments:

Iain Dale's newest fanboy said...

Iain Dale - "Far left"

THANK YOU! I HATE HATE HATE it when morons call the BNP a "far right" organisation.

They are even stupid enough to call the Nazi's a "far right" organisation. Hello? "National Socialism" anyone?

One of the biggest tricks the left ever pulled was convincing people that left wing meant "freedom" and "liberties". It NEVER has been.

Thank you Iain :)

Paddy Briggs said...

A late night post that you might regret in the cold light of day. On immigration I suggest that you listen to Michael Portillo who talks rather more sense. Perhaps you need a holiday Iain. This type of smear is unworthy of you...

Jeremy Jacobs said...

Spot on Iain.

JMB said...

"It's a Labour government, which we are told tonight by one of its own advisers, that deliberately encouraged as much immigration as possible in order to make Britain a truly multicultural society. "

Presumably the same Labour "thinkers" who thought that they could solve the drink problem by making alcohol freely available 24 hours a day.

Jo Anglezarke said...

It's the media endlessly spawning racist comments about immigration - racism has become normalised. If it's anyone's fault it's theirs.

Man in a Shed said...

I saw Bob's claim also and have left him a message saying its especially galling when Labour closed down debate in 2005 with two smears on Conservative spending and Immigration policy ( both masterminded by Mr Moral Compass himself ).

His post is being tweeted about by lefties keen to grab at any straw they can these days, even Jack ;-)

Bob must know he's wrong and be suffering some sort of moral crisis trying to square the circle of Labour deceit and failure.

Anonymous said...

SpelthorneGuru writes...

You are correct. The three main parties each have their own 'bogeyman' party.

For Labour it is the BNP
For Tories it is UKIP
For Lib Dems it is the Green Party

The rise of the BNP is because the Labour government failed the working class areas.

Vicarious Phil said...

While as the party of government, Labour must take their share of the responsibility for the rise of the BNP. The Conservatives and for that matter the Liberal Democrats should have been the obvious alternative for voters rejecting Labour. BNP success in Dagenham or Burnley also represents Tory failure.

Not The Blame Game said...

And I'm sure that it has nothing to do with media reporting of immigration figures, impact etc (or should that be misreporting).

Nothing to do with the lies about "eating swans", "Free handouts", "tax avoidance", "free houses".

Nothing to do with Troy politicians comments on immigration - after all we know how the Tories like a good scapegoat (though apparently single mothers aren't to blame for society's ills anymore)

It's all Labour's fault.

Or could it be that, in fact, we should all shoulder some blame because we've let these lies go unchecked, because we haven't challenged our politicians enough and because our politicians care more about cheap point scoring than about improving the country for us all...

Ross said...

The reference to attempts to "rub the Right's nose in diversity" are shocking. In other words poisonous racial aggravation was the purpose of their policy not simply an unfotunate side effect.

Andrew said...

As for rubbing noses, that's not a cynical tactic, it's a playground politics bit of spitefulness. Most of the right don't mind diversity. Alan Clark, yes, and some Monday Clubbers in the early 80s, but most of us now realise that the more diverse a society gets, the less it IS a society. The rich will be less keen to fork over taxes if the beneficiaries of the welfare state reject British values and all look and act differently. Massive immigration helps the taxcutting right, if anything.

I'm surprised nobody pointed out on QT that the Queen would never appoint Griffin as PM whatever his electoral support, since he would then immediately dissolve the monarchy.

Anonymous said...

That would seem a bit... Conspiratorial.. If it didn't make perfect sense and fill in a few blanks.

If this is true, it is the end for New Labour, not just in government, but as a political party.

allnottinghambasearebelongtous said...

Actually Lancashire and Leicestershire are the BNP hotspots.

Well known former commie places eh?

Anonymous said...

I rarely disagree with you, but when I do I can't help linking your musical tastes to your assertions on, er, things I disagree with. That is, I then link your low-grade, as I perceive them, political views to your low-grade, as I perceive them, musical tastes. Does anyone else think an unwillingness to look beyond cliff and Roxette must inevitably limit a societal outlook?

startledcod said...

If Andrew Neather's revelations are accurate (could an FoI query corroborate his claim) it is political dynamite. Forget appearances on Question Time this will recruit Labour voters to the BNP in their hundreds and thousands.

The cynicism leaves me almost breathless. Almost unbelievable - truly.

no longer anonymous said...

I look forward to seeing this scandalous news on the BBC front page...

Anonymous said...

I think it's sad that someone who so clearly thinks he understands politics, seeks to use the 'the BNP are left-wing' arguement which distracts from ALL THREE political parties failing voters.

The BNP are a fascist party, and a read of their manifestos and platforms has them all over the political spectrum, they do not fit left or right, but rather form a triangle on the political compass between left and right and at the very top of the authoritarian scale.

These regular attempts by Lab to blame Con and Con to blame Lab ignore the fact that BOTH parties should be wondering what is going on

Lab - why are these people unhappy with us?
Con - why are these unhappy people not voting for us?

The Tories are as much to blame for Labour. If these people have been let down by Labour it is YOUR JOB to pick them up, not see them wander into fascism.

David Boothroyd said...

Sometimes I wonder, are you all stupid, you Tory bloggers? Then you start claiming that the BNP is in some strange way a left-wing party, and then you try to argue that in some strange way the Labour Party has caused the rise of the BNP. That answers the question entirely: Yes, you are very, very stupid indeed.

Anonymous said...

Labour and Conservative governments must share collective responsibility for a stupendous disregard for the detrimental effects of what was apparent in the 1970s - that the country was full to bursting.

The share of blame may not be equal, but why expend energy on arguing that? None of the efforts being thrown around at this late stage are nearly enough to begin to undo the damage.

The BNP use a hybrid of mostly extreme left and right wing ideologies to appeal to as wide a cross-section of voters as possible. To those that do not find their doctrine abhorrent, the BNP are, like the other minor parties otherwise untainted by corruption and scandal, and will gain ground among all tribes, I think.

Andy JS said...

The problem with the left is very simple: they don't trust their own supporters. The truth must always be suppressed because they actually hold their own core vote in contempt. Now they're facing a massive defeat as the truth comes out.

donpaskini said...

Hi Iain,

"I don't know if any academic work has been done in this area, but as a guess, I'd say that 80% of BNP voters are ex-Labour voters. That may not always have been the case, but I'd bet a Pound to a penny it is now."

Bet you £100 at the odds you suggested of 'a pound to a penny' that fewer than 80% of BNP voters are ex-Labour voters. Deal?

David Anthony said...

Could it be that whenever the Conservatives mentioned the word 'immigration' they were slapped down on all sides by the Liberals and Labour as being xenophobic and quasi-racists, thus removing any rational room for debate within mainstream politics and pushing it out to the extremist parties such as the BNP?

Just a thought.

Iain Dale said...

David Boothroyd, that must rate as one of your poorer comments. No attempt to engage in the argument at all. Just insults.

David Anthony said...

...David Milliband take note.

no longer anonymous said...

Let's not allow this subject to be sidetracked into an "are the BNP left or right-wing" debate. It's been done to death and I doubt anybody is going to change their mind.

Key point is that Labour's motivation for encouraging mass immigration was extremely dishonourable.

Anonymous said...

"rub the Right's nose in diversity"?
Stop for a second! Do you really believe that this is an actual quote? Do you really think that the sole purpose of immigration policy over the past 12 years has been to get as many foreigners into this country in order to piss off right wingers? But surely the party most upset by such action would be the BNP, who you claim to be a left wing party. Since last night I have been waiting for your spring to uncoil. I never thought it would do so in such a wingnut fashion.

p.s. if you really want to debate this ridiculous canard that facism is a left wing ideology then let's do so.

Lloyd B

Iain Dale said...

Lloyd, in case you can't read properly, that was a quote from a Labour policy adviser, not from some right wing dingbat.

Fascism is indeed a left wing ideology. It rests on big authoritarian government and state control. Shame you don't seem to see that.

Bill Quango MP said...

Nice work on R5 Mr Dale. Who was your co headline reader who didn't believe the economic statistics in any of the papers?

Richard said...

I think Bob Piper is spot on with his comment. There has been no realistic Tory opposition to most of what has been going on in recent years. Rather more of trying to OutLabour Labour.

A vote for the Conservatives is a vote for more of the same, nothing will really change under Cameron (unless you like to go hunting). Just look at how the Tories behave at local level. Abusing the RIPA laws to spy on ordinary people, penalties for everything, non jobs by the thousand and (well illustrated by Boris) skyrocketing taxes, out of control spending on lunatic projects (London bike hire, Kent TV etc), spy cameras everywhere, bans, disproportionate fines for every petty offence they can dream up. Small Government it is not.

The sight of all three main parties ganging up on Griffin ably assisted by their cohorts at the BBC, while nauseating in itself, served to give us a picture of the spiteful alliance of LibLabCon politicians in action. Anyone who smokes or drinks or does anything else they disapprove of will have recognised only too well the sort of treatment they meted out to Griffin. Add to that the corruption and thieving we have been forced to pay for by these people while they denigrate everything we do and you can start to see why Griffin may be rather more attractive to voters than what is on offer from the established parties.

Alwyn ap Huw said...

This sort of "blame game" is silly and plays into the BNP's hands.

If it is true that 80% of BNP voters are ex-Labour, then the Conservatives, Liberal Democrats, SNP, Plaid, MK, UKIP and the Greens are at fault for not offering a credible alternative to their dissatisfaction with Labour.

I'm sure that it is unintentional, but this post could be seen as an encouragement to peeved Labour voters to support the BNP.

El Sid said...

Iain - you should check out this recent post by Mike Smithson - the YouGov pre-Eurovote poll asked BNP voters how their parents voted. Very roughly it was 2/3 Labour : 1/3 Tory of those who expressed a view. So I suspect you lose your bet. :-)

Frugal Dougal said...

Well said! It seems that the political spectrum is not a line but a circle, where "hard left" and "far right" occupy the same space - witness Oswald Moseley coming out of the Independent Labour Party to found the BNP.

Anonymous said...

p.s. if you really want to debate this ridiculous canard that facism is a left wing ideology then let's do so.

Forgive me for being so stupid , but I'm confused.

National Socialist Party = Nazi = Facism , with me so far ?

Socialism = Left wing ideology ?

So if facism was born out of socialism in pre-war germany then surely facism must be a left wing ideology because it was born out of socialism.

Please tell me where my logic fails ?

Anonymous said...

@el Sid
YouGov pre-Eurovote poll asked BNP voters how their parents voted

How they thought their parents voted, not how they had voted before.

Also, the question is silly.

How you think someone voted is not related to how they did vote unless you can read their mind.

Elliot Kane said...

Labour are certainly the primary culprits, but the Tories and Lib Dems have not helped by ducking the long overdue debate on mass immigration and its effects on society, so they too must accept their share of the blame.

Anyway, who is to blame for the BNP rather pales into insignificance next to that article in the Telegraph. IF it is true - and I honestly hope it is not! - then there has been a conspiracy at the heart of govt to willfully damage, weaken and destabilise Britain. That needs to be investigated as a matter of urgency. IF it is true, something must be done.

Time for Mr Cameron & Mr Clegg to step up to the plate...

Elliot Kane said...

For those genuinely interested, The New Statesman has an excellent article about the BNP here:

http://tinyurl.com/dkeawk

It's well worth reading, IMO.

tapestry said...

The Rise Of The BNP - headlines all over Britain.

Precisely 1.5% of the British voting population intends to vote BNP in the GE.

The only thing that's rising is media coverage of the BNP. That is because Brown is desperate for a narrative.

Here, he is saying. YOu think I'm a twit. Well look at this guy.

Problem is, Gordon, Griffin cannot tell truth from fiction, and has them muddled up together at about 50/50.

You OTOH believe the truth be your enemy, and tell 100% lies on all topics, making Griffin the clear winner.

Anonymous said...

Iain,
Are you or any of your readers old enough to remember Harold Wilson? He had a couple of financial advisors called Balogh and Kaldor, of Hungarian origin I believe. Whenever the Tories criticised Labour's financial policies or the socialist theories of these two they were inevitably accused of... wait for it... racism. The fact that Hungarians are racially indistinguishable from you or I was, of course, irrelevant. The race card was played, critics were silenced. It worked then and almost half a century later, pathetically, it still does.
And whose fault is that?

Anonymous said...

Right `On the Button` Iain.

No one voted for multiculturism.
No one voted on immigration policy.
And when we where promised a vote/referendum-they reneged.

One thing Labour does not offer is transparency

Fenman

Anonymous said...

It is not all Labour's fault Ian. IMO it is the fault of the whole political elite who have alienated ordinary white people. The elite who do not have to live in the mess that they have created.

Single term politicians is the answer, politics should not be a career.

Quietzapple said...

Breakfast says The Dully Tele poll shows 4% would vote BNP "Tomorrow" while 6% did so in the protest vote Euro-Election a few months ago.

An interesting increase to be blamed on HMG.

The slant on this poll is a disgrace, suiting the billionaire propaganda machine, led again by the Barclay Bros from their Jersey tax haven.

As ever the fairly far left and raving right conspire by their unenlightened wishful thinking to misinform us all.

Anonymous said...

Iain, have you been reading the same book as me 'Liberal fascism'; which lays out the history and rise of fascism: assuming as the author did that you are capable of defining what it is?

Pete-s

Anonymous said...

The Pipe should chat to Coun Thomas about how to conduct himself.

simon said...

Hilarious, yep, lyinglabour are mainly responsible for the rise of the BNP- but the other 'establishment' political parties have responsibility too. Face facts, if there was a referendum over allowing 'immigration' there would be a NO vote. That's why there has NEVER been one. Don't lecture people about wanting/having a society that they have never been allowed to vote on. I just love all these 'white' politiciand who support our 'diverse' society. I would bet that 99.9% of them do not live in 'ethnically dominated' areas. Let them practice what they preach. Jack Straw can leave Minster Lovell (ethnic population i would guess at zero) and move to a muslim dominated part of Blackburn. If he loves our 'diverse' society this would not be a problem....

European said...

Conservatives:
"Labour Is Responsible for the Rise of the BNP"

Labour:
"Conservartives are Responsible for the Rise of the BNP"


The old parties in action...

Ed Burke said...

"Far left Fascist parties like the BNP invariably do well under left wing governments which fail left of centre voters. Le Pen rose to prominence in France under Mitterand. The National Front in this country gained traction under Labour in the late 1970s, and now the BNP is on the rise here again"

The fascist parties are far right, rather than far left.

There's always been a conservatism amongst the working class, and indeed that's what Thatcher was elected on.

The reason why far right fascist parties do better during periods of left-wing administration is that they're much more angered by the leftist policies.

During right-wing adminstrations, the far right fascists are more comforted by the right wing polices of the administration.

I hope that wasn't too complicated.

In terms of the theoretical aspects of all this, I'm sure the shrewder elements at central office are having quite a laugh at your naivete.

Johnny Norfolk said...

Labour not the Tories insisted on PR for the Euro voting systen rather than first past the post.
This has allowed the BNP to win seats. Thats why they were on Question Time.

So all those PR fanatics should put their brain into gear before they support it. You cannot have The Greens without the BNP.

Johnny Norfolk said...

The Tories must take their share of the blame as well. If they had been a little more to the right with regard to Europe, Tax,Clear Imigration polcy some years ago and could be seen far more clearly supporting grass roots policy. and not have male discrimination.
It may have gone some way to checking the BNP.
The party leadership is seen as far to soft and wet. They need to be stronger and less wimpish.

tory boys never grow up said...

The reasons for the increase in the BNP vote (and for similar spurts in the far right vote in the past which have also occurred under Conservative governments) are many and varied and only idiots such as Mr Dale and his ilk try and come up with simplistic explanations. Yes immigration is one factor, among many others, and it would be sensible to have a measured debate about it as well as all the other factors. But perhaps it is a little difficult when Conservative Party politicians contribution to the debate is emotive terms like "swamping","rivers of blood", "bogus asylum seekers" which they then embellish with wild claims and unsupported statistics.

"Fascism is indeed a left wing ideology"

If that is the case it is strange that whenever they come to power the first thing they try and do is usually murder and liquidiate thos on the left - while those on the centre right (with many honourable exceptions) largely acquiesce to the new regime.

Perhaps Mr Dale you should recognise that one strand that is pretty common in fascism is nationalism (and I don't mean patriotism which is something else - anyone who doesn't understand the difference should read the Lion and Unicorn by George Orwell - and the whole essay unlike John Major who only read part of it). And if you don't see that nationalism is now pretty rampant in Tory circles then you really do need to take your blinkers off. While I'm more than conscious that political thought on the left can mutate into unacceptable forms - and that is something where those like Orwell have taught us to be eternally vigilant; perhaps Mr Dale should acknowledge that the same can happen all to quickly in the Tory Party. Doesn't he remember the Monday Club, that Nick Griffin's father was a member for many years or recognise that there are still many individual members who hold racist views and are all to willing to express them when they think no one is looking. Some of them even have their own blogs (not this one I hasten to add)!

prj45 said...

If the BNP is left wing why did it tell it's supporters to use their second preference vote for Boris Johnson in the London Mayoral elections?

Anonymous said...

Neather has admitted to TREASON.
Iain please try to get coverage for this on the BBC.

Neather article:
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23760073-dont-listen-to-the-whingers---london-needs-immigrants.do

Norfolk Blogger said...

Are you feeling okay Iain ? Surely you could shoe horn in some sort of blame that you could attribute to the Lib Dems somewhere ?

North-West Tory said...

The shocking thing was that Labour kept 3 million mostly white working class on sick benefits while they flooded the country with immigrants.

Zanu Labour's central command is just as cynical to its core supporters, as Cameron's high command is to its dwindling band of activists.

Both major political parties in the UK have been taken over by small cliques who dont give a toss about activists cos they know that political obsessives will always come out for the party in its hour of need.

Take the present fury over all women short lists: it's the same anger as with grammar schools (another Cameron kick in the face to loyal activists).

Guess what?

The anger dies and it will with all women short lists - come general election time most people on this blog fuelled by their mistaken sense of self-importance and desire to 'make change' will be out their leafleting and canvassing.

And Cameron, Hilton etc all know the suckers will be there!

Please learn something said...

In both Spain and Germany, where fascist regimes came to power, they were supported by conservatives and murdered leftists.

Same thing happened in South America.

Intelligent and educated people understand that fascism is the ultimate product of right wing ideology. there's no debate amongst them.

Dale's efforts are directed by the ignorant at the even more ignorant.

You wonder did he ever read any book at all when he was flogging them at Politicos.

Unsworth said...

@ Paddy Briggs

"Perhaps you need a holiday Iain. This type of smear is unworthy of you..."

Pots/kettles.

Anonymous said...

Let's get this straight, Iain.

The BNP is the only political party that actually has the bottle to air many people's concerns. The BNP is not 'leading', it's following an under current in society. But it comes back down to mass immigration and the effect that is having on people's lives in all sorts of areas - social, economic, structural.

Whole areas demographics have changed. I went back to an old stamping ground recently and couldn't believe my eyes on the changes there.

Mass immigration MUST be allowed to be discussed openly. The more the sore goes untreated, the worse this problem is going to become. We must stop labelling people 'racists' simply for airing their concerns.

If we don't, I really do fear for the social cohesion in this country. It could blow at any time and failing to discuss it makes the problem more dangerous, not less.

davidc said...

with increasing accusations of 'nazi' and 'fascist' could someone define what differences there are between them?

BrianSJ said...

Iain
The Telegraph piece mentions Barbara Roche. If and when the history of the evils of NuLab is written, that will be a name to track.
A useful heuristic for the shadow cabinet would be to relate legislation to key figures e.g. anything by Blunkett or Prescott - just repeal it. Anything with her name on it; look for deep damage.

Left Libertarian said...

Iain, why are you playing the blame game... I cannot believe how you have descended into such lows.

The BNP is a "fascist" ethno - nationalist party - so get it right Iain... When you start throwing definitions around you need to get it right. Look at Barbara Goodwin's Political Ideas book in which she defines what the BNP is.

It is not 'far left'. To say so is misunderstanding their political ideology.

David Boothroyd said...

It's all it deserves, Iain. You're making a very, very stupid argument. If not, can you point me to a single article in "Patterns of Prejudice", the peer reviewed academic journal looking at nationalist and racist politics, which asserts that the British National Party is a right-wing party? Or is it just a line that idiot tories trot out in a pathetic attempt to mislead?

Anonymous said...

I don't know if any academic work has been done in this area, but as a guess, I'd say that 80% of BNP voters are ex-Labour voters.

There was a study earlier in the year, widely publicised at the time, showing that the historical vote of the BNP (and its precursors) increased in direct proportion to the decrease of Labour's vote.

That means that the overwhelming majority of BNP votes are ex-Labour votes - and, frankly, I think you're naive to put the figure as low as 80%. The BNP has always done well in traditionally Labour-voting areas and, in general, the party has enjoyed its greatest successes when Labour is in electoral trouble.

Racism goes hand-in-hand with Labour and always has done. The marriage of leftism and racism perhaps explains why the BNP themselves pursue hard-left policies.

Political Scrapbook said...

Not so fast, Iain. Yesterday I spoke to an election agent in one of the constituencies you mention your post. He said that it often helps Labour to win/hold a council seat when the BNP enter a local race. This would indicate that, at least in some cases, the BNP take more votes from Labour's opponents.

And as for the utterly pointless arguments (from left and right) about where the BNP lies on the political spectrum, I'm sure a man of your intellectual curiosity has heard of horseshoe theory.

Can't we concentrate on the BNP and what needs to be done rather than trying to score cheap political points?

Diana said...

You're absolutely right, Ian! Labour is totally responsible for the rise of the BNP. They have ridden rough shod over the people of this country. Their attitude has been "we'll do what we like, and if you don't like it -tough!". Well it's all coming home to roost now.
It says on the BBC web page that Peter Hain is "very angry" about the BNP possibly picking up supporters after Question Time. I am so glad about that. He was always in the forefront of calling us all "racist". Such an insult to those good people who felt they had nowhere else to turn.

Paul Halsall said...

Are you becoming a Sarah Palin fan?

Doug said...

Absolutely hit the mark with this one Iain.

Too many Leftists are too lazy to actually read the BNP manifesto because if they did they would recognise it from Labour's '83 manifesto. Too lazy to discover that the founders of the BNP first choice for a party name was The Real Labour Party. Too ignorant to accept what there own activists and activists from other parties say about the BNP canvassing as "the Labour party your parents voted for." Too lazy and ignorant to look at the Yougov megapoll of over 30,000 people before the Euro elections that showed 50% of sampled BNP voters grew up in households that were Labour supporters. Too lazy to read Nick Griffin's description of himself as a "National Socialist." And all that while the BNP make inroads into long held Labour constituencies and they make completely illogical statements that their former Left-wing supporters are voting for a supposedly far-Right party.

For our part the Tories have been cowards because we are too afraid of the standard Liberal/Labour tactics of calling us racists whenever we talk about immigration. Despite the fact that the only progress made on immigration is when Labour steal and implement our supposedly racists policies as their own.

There needs to be a concerted effort to stop the BBC and others using this far-Right label. It is a fact that the BNP are economically Left (clause 4 and all) which is the normal Left-Right distinction. So what do they mean when they say far-Right? That all racists are on the Right. That is patently untrue but plays perfectly into the Leftists standard "we walk with the angels" delusion. Racism is a phenomenon across the entire political spectrum. So this term is simply being used, consciously or not, to smear an entire political philosophy.

DespairingLiberal said...

Correct me please if I'm wrong, but aren't Tory councils deeply opposed to creating more social housing? One of the underlying causes of white working class disenchantment? New Labour share this view sadly.

On the subject of the leaked story, I suspect the real motive was economic. During the phoney boom of 97 - 2002, there was huge demand for casualised workers in all sectors. Those industries were clamouring to get the government to relax immigration controls. Now that there's a recession, the same casuals can be thrown out. It's all much like what happened in Germany during the 80s when it important more than three million Turkish people, causing a spike in far-right activity.

I suppose Labour also did some calculations and realised it couldn't hurt them politically to have all those extra future voters who would be for ever grateful to Labour.

Most of the BNP rise though can be attributed to the Tory press, with it's many faked-up immigrant hysteria stories.

One question I would like to ask you Iain - is one of your motives for being so very keen to give the BNP a platform that you believe they will take Labour votes?

DespairingLiberal said...

Iain Dale's newest fanboy - when did the Left go on about freedom as an abstract exactly? For most of the last 200 years, they have talked about dissolving the class system, redistributing the wealth, allowing the people to take control of the means of production - are you perhaps confusing "left" with "liberal"?

DespairingLiberal said...

Iain, what are you basing your assertion that leftwing means "big authoritarian government and state control" on? Stalinism? Many on the left would argue that Stalinism was actually a betrayal of leftwing politics, that he imposed a RIGHTIST authoritarianism and terror.

Are you arguing that right-wing governments are never authoritarian? Do you then believe that for example Franco, General Galtieri, Pinochet and Mussolini (to name but a few) were of the Left?

Why then did those gentlemen single-mindedly persecute the left in their own countries?

I think the way you glibly repeat this reminds us that you are not quite the nice, middle of the road Tory you sometimes pretend to be on TV, but that you are actually well over on the New Far Right.

Anonymous said...

Most people realised this cynical policy had been introduced years ago.

However, just watching Steven Pound on Sky, apparently BNP support is a response to the three main parties and the fallout from expensegate.

Again it shows that politicans still do not get it.

Large numbers of decent and reasonable people believe immigration is a real issue that has had a detrimental impact on this country. However, these people are afraid of being stigmatised if they express their views. There are a lot of people who agree with Griffin on this one issue. The mainstream parties need to represent what the silent majority want, otherwise the BNP will continue to grow. Wake up and smell the coffee.

Tone Made Me Do It - He's a Bad Influence said...

This is only half right
Its also down to the Conservatives going all soft and cuddly with the media.
I look at Cameroon and see the actor Blair: someone who has no principles whatsoever.

I vote BNP to try and out-flank this media-led "be nice to everyone" bollocks which in the end will lead to civil-war in England.

For the umpteenth time I call upon Iain to shave his head Pym Fontaine style and invest in a couple of Standard Poodles (and a bullet-proof vest)

Remember everybody, the ONLY message of today's media is;

"what you SHOULD think is far more important than what you DO think"

this is blatant bollocks and is the suicide of Western Civilisation.

Dr Gonz said...

Most people who subscribe to the cock-up thery of government (far more reasonable in general than believing in conspiracy theories) will be surprised at the idea that this could be true. That the current situation in the UK has arisen through stupidity, negligence, ignorance, a failure of vision is very easy to believe. It is equally easy to believe that the the left, with its fascist roots ("everything within the state, nothing outside of the state"), an obsession with power, a generalised need to control and manipulate might WANT to do something like this, but the fact that they actually did it, is quite breathtaking.

Furious with Labour said...

Reading your item Iain makes me feel very angry. I am not a supporter of the BNP, but reading the item makes me realise just how despicable New Labour has been.

They've now saddled us with a problem that will not go away, as it was as politically motivated as Cromwell's plantations in Northern Ireland. And we all know how that has evolved over history.

VotR said...

Labour are to blame for all of the messes that Britain is in, and they are accumulating, Iain. This weeks Question Time is but an example of Labour's appalling lack of common sense and judgement. If the BNP membership shoots up, not because of the televised event, but because of Labour's smearing, vilification and demonising of the BNP then Labour are accountable for the publicity generated to the BNPs cause. The sympathy vote cometh.

Yes, we the people are to blame for voting Labour in, but what happened after has entirely been dished out by Labour, regardless of whether we wanted what was served or not.

Labour are to blame, they must be held responsible for their mess and the piper must be paid.

jojoko said...

In the area in which I live, the majority of BNP supporters are ex-Labour; however, there are a few disgruntled ex-Conservatives from the blazer brigade that are extremely sympathetic to the BNP. One of them is my neighbour. The percentage is probably about 80% ex-Labour, 20% ex-Conservative here. The ex-Conservative switch to the BNP is mainly due to anti-EU feeling. Most of them would be expected to join UKIP but the BNP has been highly persuasive in telling them what they want to hear, and saying their extremist views have been painted blacker than they really are.

Anonymous said...

Are you censoring your comments page? The other blogs are alive with comments on this subject.

DespairingLiberal said...

I've been trying to find out if Andrew Neather was even in Number 10 during the period in question, eg, after 2000, at least according to the quote Iain reprints here from the article in today's Telegraph.

It's strange, because Neather seems to have been working as a journalist for various right-wing newspapers going back to at least 1999, judging from Google searches.

This whole "cat out of the bag" story appears to be a planned job between Neather and Tory newspapers and bloggers. Is there even a shred of truth in his allegations? How can we tell?

Chris Paul said...

What a load of ill-considered and unhelpful bull this is Iain.

Anthony Neather is NOT "one of its (the Lab Govt's) own advisers". He is an ex- adviser (I'm guessing CS rather than SpAd?) now enjoying a second career as an axe grinder.

But even there we find he DID NOT say what the Standard, the Telegraph, and now the great IDD say he said. Whereas the piece you quote fingers "a politically motivated attempt" etc early doors, when you read on you find that this is Neather's speculation based on elements of early drafts of a a document which (a) didn't get adopted and (b) were presumably written by civil servants and (c) didn't suggest any noses getting rubbed in anything.

That, dear Iain, is Neather editorialising and projecting his own thoughts onto a draft document that said no such thing. It's very sloppy indeed. From the Standard and the Telegraph. There's no need for you to follow this dim "thinking".

Research on the supposed voting behaviour of the parents of possible BNP voters now does suggest a sizeable minority of these parent-identify as Tory. And we all know that in 1979 at least some core Labour voters backed the Thatch.

In all honesty many families who "ought" to be Labour dabble and vote Con - which fact Cam is trying to benefit from by "me-tooing" on Lab approaches - and LD and Respect and, yes, in extremis BNP.

But election results are clear facts under which is a black box, literally and philosophically. We've been here before.

After the Sevenoaks BNP win you of course projected your theory onto that. But on closer inspection we find that the LD and the Greens failed to even stand. And that there were protests going on against local Con councils (borough and county) as well as the Govt.

And that there is every likelihood that rather than winning over core voters from either Con or Lab the BNP simply activated the local NVs.

There have subsequently been cases where the Tory vote has dipped as the BNP gain. Unlike some of my Lab co-religionists I will not claim this as Tories voting for the BNP, though some may have. Those Tories may well even have voted for Lab to try to keep the fascists out!

I've discussed Tottington in Bury North here before I think. This is a Tory ward returning three do nothing Con cllrs ... and also the epicentre of the BNP in that constituency. They got about 2500 votes in 05 IIRC and halved poor D Chaytor's majority.

And the thing about Tottington - largely right-to-buy ex Council estates and infill - was that there was NO discernible political activity from either the incumbent council Tories or the incumbent MP Labour or from the Lib Dems.

This is the vacuum the BNP exploit. Complacent incumbents, and inactive main parties insurgents writing areas on on the basic of Mosaic categories or limited voter iD or even the last ward resuults.

Not by turning normally committed voters. But by energising and rallying the many many NVs. It's what the LDs do in such places as well to be fair. Point at the cracks, ignore the plus side, build votes on miserableness.

As for your statistical wilderness friend Nadine Dorries? She's riding for a fall on exes and propriety, and she shouldn't be allowed near complex issues like this.

There may be blogging anon. Meanwhile Liam Murray is right. This sort of analysis is lazy and unhelpful.

jojoko said...

As to whether or not the BNP are left or right, I have never seen any difference in the extreme positions of left and right. They do not travel in a straight line, but bend until they meet and join. Or two sides of the same coin, if that's a better analogy. Right wing dictators are just as big government as left wing dictators. They just don't appropriate businesses in a collective, but hand them over to relatives, friends and members of the ruling clique. I have lived in a left-wing dictatorship. It was surreal. Having compared notes with people who lived in right wing dictatorships, it is obvious you couldn't get a cigarette paper between them.

Left Libertarian said...

The BNP is not a 'far left' organization. I should know because unlike you I have a BA (Hons) in Politics.

The BNP according to Prof. Barbara Goodwin's definition is an ethno-nationalist 'fascist' party and cannot be positioned on the traditional left - right axis.

Anonymous said...

For heaven's sake, however bad the Government are, this is the most pitiful, badly timed and inappropriate item I've ever read on this blog. As disinegenuous as Jan Moir. Very sad.

The trouble with blaming Labour for the rise of the BNP would be that it's not actually the Labour vote that has collapsed in these places.

Actually in safe Labour areas it's the anti-Labour vote that has gathered round the BNP. That's Tories, non voters, independents, some Labour switchers but not many.

Labour are a few points down but have been overtaken by anti- labour coalitions. Example. Was Alf Garnett ever a Labour voter? Never.

So really the question is at least as much - why have the Conservatives, UKIP, Liberals got nothing to offer these people right now?

I'd bet back that 80% of BNP supporters have never supported Labour in their lives.
Labour cannot be the establishment and hold up the Anti Fascist movment at the same time.

For mainstream parties to try and score silly points off each other like you have done today is desperate while fascism is prospering in our communities.

SG

Greenpeace said...

Fascism is indeed a left wing ideology. It rests on big authoritarian government and state control. Shame you don't seem to see that.

Iain - where do you get this from... Fascism is NOT A LEFT WING IDEOLOGY.
Only an idiot can see that.

Extreme Far - Right also believe in authoritarian government and state control.

Or do you think the extreme right are cuddly libertarians.

You don't understand politics at all do you Iain.

This has got to be one of your poorest posts on here. This blog has gone down in value.

jailhouselawyer said...

My reading of the story from the BBC states that the Labour councillor has been arrested. As you will recall Damian Green was arrested but not actually charged. There is a difference.

Anonymous said...

Race crime statistics.

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/5066/racistcrimestats2005.jpg

jailhouselawyer said...

Your link does actually say that the Labour councillor has been charged.

Let's hope it galvanizes the authorities into charging some of those MPs who have fiddled their expenses.

JBM said...

I would suggest that many people feel that it doesn't matter a toss who you vote for.

So now that the BNP is legit, and after the expenses scandal, what better way to kick the system than vote BNP.

All with the advantage of upsetting every pundit who pontificates on why we shouldn't vote for them.

Good game - good game!

Quietzapple said...

2084 has arrived a little early when a party which got 6% in the Euro elections last June is proclaimed a Great Triumph when it has 4% in a poll paid for by a "newspaper" which favours it immediately after loadsa publicity all over the media . . .

Repeat after the Barclay Bros: "Less is more . . "

Anonymous said...

In the past the NF & BNP have had some support.
They have not had great success because the British ARE fair,
tolerant and are perfectly willing to live in peace alongside people of different colour & faith.The majority were 'not hindered' by their presence.The political parties loped along as they always do.
Today we are in a TOTALLY diferent place.
Now we have many scenes of muslims etc calling for 'death to infidels',the 'infidels' being the white British.Banners screaming 'TO HELL WITH FREEDOM',
aimed squarely at white British freedoms.We have a government who have appeased the immigrants & the British believe 'THEY' get everything ahead of 'US'.The report today,gives that opinion some credence.We have had racial hatred shouted on our city streets aimed at white British,yet at the same time the white British have been 'shut down' if they respond 'in kind'.
Today the MSM and the political parties still think the BNP will get the same amount of support as they did in the past.
In the past not many felt as
'threatened'or'affected'by immigration.Nor did they feel
'ignored' or were called 'racists'
by their political representatives as they are today.
Add to that the sheer arrogance by the Labour government and the fear of reproach by the other two main opposition to tackle immigration,THEN the expenses scandal,fraud,greed,corruptness,theEU and today we have the perfect storm.
Be it right or wrong the mood out here is WE WANT OUR COUNTRY BACK.We also BELIEVE none of the three main parties have the balls or will to do anything different.
When you get a MAJORITY of the population 'percieving' they are being put second to immigrants in their OWN country,the politicians & MSM poo poo OUR opinions at their peril.
I am a life long Conservative,have ALWAYS voted Conservative yet to my families astonishment I AM and WILL vote BNP at the next election.
It is now up to David Cameron,the LEADER of the Conservatives to GIVE ME A REASON TO VOTE FOR HIM.
If DC wants my vote HE has to EARN it.
Yes, today in Britain, it is a whole new ball game. The white British are calling the shots and the Politicians had better catch up quick, or they will ALL lose at the GE.THEY have to ask themselves,are the British willing to give Griffin one term in office?
Going by todays poll(BNP 22%)MAYBE WE WILL.

Anonymous said...

@ Not The Blame Game 12.48

Lies such as this one you mean?

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/tm_headline=man-tried-to-eat-swan-during-ramadan&method=full&objectid=18140732&siteid=50082-name_page.html#

Anonymous said...

@Iain Dale's newest fanboy

You took the words right out of my freaking mouth. Labour are ALWAYS using that phrase, "far right", ALWAYS trying to distance themselves from their own creation. Whether they like it or not they are indeed Dr Victor Frankenstein.

Nationalism = Socialism = Left Wing
Left Wing = Labour, BNP

Right Wing = Conservative.

They're manipulative creatures never taking responsibility and STILL going on about the last Tory government which left this country in a damn better state than what it is now and has been out of power for … Hmm, Oh…13 years nearly. They ought to be ashamed but they have no sense of morality, so fat chance.

Can I ask everyone reading this to start referring to the BNP as far Left from now on and correcting those who say otherwise, please.

-Simon

Anonymous said...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/6418456/Labour-wanted-mass-immigration-to-make-UK-more-multicultural-says-former-adviser.html

Have a read of this Iain!!

ukipwebmaster said...

It's time that Labour claimed the BNP as one of its' own. Far left is what the leftys don't want to hear but it's absolutely correct.

trevorsden said...

Paddy Briggs surfaces yet again to talk total cr@p.

Iain you are totally spot on. Well done for further publicising this admission.You can add places like Wigan where the BNP have done well.

The notion that its the Tories fault that the BNP rack up votes in Burnley is risible. Bonkers.

The BNP are far extreme working class racist left. lets face it the likes of the BNP (like Hitler) can only hope to stay in power by total state control. They are the next logical step on from socialism.

The news about the secret plan for mass immigration designed to change the nature of Britain to suit labours view is absolute dynamite --- but it only confirms I think what most on the Right have suspected all along.

It has led of course to a disastrous social breakdown and now even the left see (forced to admit) that the concept multiculturalism has totally failed.

And to the likes of Alwyn - In 2005 the tories ran on an anti immigration platform. So do not say this is all their fault. The immigration tsunami has come from Labour. LABOUR. Can't you spell? The whole labour movement must be sick to the stomach to see all this revealed now. Leaving aside all Labours bigoted motives the policy was loony from the start and has failed.

I is me said...

"Fascism
Normally described as "extreme right", but writers on the subject have often found placing fascism on a conventional left-right political spectrum difficult. There is a scholarly consensus that fascism was influenced by both the left and the right. A number of historians have regarded fascism either as a revolutionary centrist doctrine, as a doctrine which mixes philosophies of the left and the right, or as both of those things”

Unsworth said...

@ Despairing Liberal

"This whole "cat out of the bag" story appears to be a planned job between Neather and Tory newspapers and bloggers. Is there even a shred of truth in his allegations? How can we tell?"

Any real evidence of this 'planning'? Is there even a shred of truth in your allegation? How can we tell?

Unsworth said...

@ Chris Paul

"unhelpful"?

To whom?


Clown

Me said...

Talking to some Guardian readers in my office this week reminded me how far removed from reality they are: firstly, they say Britain has ALWAYS been multicultural and multiracial (which is disingenous to say the least), secondly they say that immigration 'has not caused problems' (what?!!), and thirdly they say there is nothing to fear from whites becoming a minority in Britain (a quick gaze abroad might show the inanity of that viewpoint).
This is what we're dealing with! These deluded lunatics, with no experience of real life or with any sort of wisdom beyond their newspaper's politics, are the ones running the country! No wonder we're doomed.

Anonymous said...

Iain you are absolutely right, the cat is now out of the bag.

If any good came out of Griffin's appearance on QT, it is that Labour immigration policies have now been rumbled for all to see. I cannot see Labour ever being forgiveen for putting cynical politics above democracy. Roll on the election.

Duncan Stott said...

UK Polling Report did a post on who votes BNP.

"asked if they’d rather have Cameron or Brown as PM, BNP voters opt for Cameron by 59% to 17%. Asked to place themselves on the political spectrum they put themselves right of centre, in roughly the same place as they do the Tories. 22% of them think the Tories care about people like themselves, only 6% say the same about Labour. In short, the people the BNP seem to appeal to are actually “working class Tories” – the sort of traditional working class voters who under other circumstances might shift over to the Conservatives."

That's the evidence, Iain. BNP ovters are would-be Tory voters.

repossessed house investor said...

Iain, of course Labour are responsible for rise of the BNP

Which political party has been warning us for years about Labour's policies of socially engineering Britain away from a homogenous society, the so-called "enrichment" of mass 3rd world immigration into the UK, and enforcing the new Utopian paradise of multiculturalism?

Why is a very ethnically diverse, divided country more desirable than a homogenous one? Is it easier to control? Divided we fall?

Who voted for this policy? Have the people ever been consulted about it? Is there a party we can vote for to register our anger?

After Question Time I went to the BNP website and it was refreshingly without spin, unlike all spin soaked labour sites.

Quietzapple said...

The multi cultural community hereabouts is doing fine.

As per '20s & '30s Germany an avowedly working class party gets most of its real financial support from the hyper rich, like the Billionaires who own much of our media.

Means to label political parties will have moved on since Eynsenck but his principal 2 dimensional analysis put the Nazis like the BNP on the right, quite close to the Communists on the extreme left.

If racism is left or right it is decidedly right wing, look at the Cons & UKIP opposition to race relations laws, a badge of honour among many such people, and the butt of silly, often prejudiced jokes.

Consider the calls for freedom of "speech" when nazi fancying is in the air - the Tory EU Polish Leader for example, or Wilders whom many on the left would exclude because of fears he would incite racial violence. Those who wanted him in didn't call for reverses on the bans on various Islamo-fascists, did they?

But then "Less is more " & etc, according to the tax exile Barclays' organ, and it is always the Labour Government's fault . . .

sarge said...

Let's start with a basic premise:

'You will never understand bureaucracies until you understand that for bureaucrats procedure is everything and outcomes are nothing.”

This describes government in this country. The lack of outcomes is the vacuum within which the likes of the BNP prosper. Their presence where mainstream parties do not tread is enough. Policies don't matter to the disenfranchised to whom they appeal.They appear to be listening,which is all it takes.

I note many on this site making excuses for the BNP's successes but unless this vacuum is filled they will continue. Having an ostrich mentality will serve the BNP well.

The antics on QT just give them more publicity. How many extra column inches has this generated for Griffin ?

Wake up

Peter said...

Iain,

Why not actually give an *argument* against multiculturalism? That'd be nice.

Anonymous said...

i dont believe in the BNP is a Tory failure it is within the labour heartlands that they are gaining support.

But more than that the london based political and intellectual elite have closed down any debate about immigration by branding and intimidating anyone, however measured who dares to mention it. look at the pressure group migration watch, even william hague.

Its not only the effect on traditional culture, its demand on public services

Anonymous said...

"they probably realised the conservatism of their core voters"

The core Labour vote are patriotic.

That is why the NuLab traitors lied, and lied, and lied again to destroy the nation they hate.

Quietzapple said...

An "increase" from 6% in the Euro Elections to 4% in this latest poll, is only an increase in the minds of those who want it to be, for various tendentious reasons . .

. . . or are you all hypnotised by the Barclays' Dully Tele propaganda machine?

Dave H said...

If you are worried about a rising BNP now, just remember that the new Equalities Bill will legalise racial discrimination –provided it is against Whites.

People will then, in a ghastly inversion of MLK’s dream, be awarded jobs or promotions purely and openly on the basis of the colour of their skin. This bears all the hallmarks of a Labour attempt to head off BNP support.

If Labour were to (nightmare) win next year, I wonder if it would eventually lead to the country kicking off in a manner way beyond the recent EDL/Muslim clashes.

These dangerous lunatics must be booted out of power as quickly as possible, and efforts made to undo the damage they have inflicted.

BTW surprisingly few politicians/professional commenters mention twelve years of mass immigration as a key driver behind BNP support. Not bleedin’ obvious at all.

Anonymous said...

The UK polling report shows the BNP are 59% Tory to 17% Labour. Furthermore in the London Mayoral election the BNP support overwhelmingly went to Boris on second preference.

The BNP are the Alf Garnett brigade- they've never been Labour voters.

It's a brazen falsehood to claim they are. This nod-nod wink-wink game the right is playing over immigration is very dangerous.

Anonymous said...

McLabour wants to deport immigrants for votes, the BNP wants to import immigrants for votes.

At least the BNP are honest about that.

McLabour OUT! we have had our fill of an extremist Government.

Norton Folgate said...

Of course Labour are responsible for the rise of the BNP.

Labour are the f@cking idiots that have been in charge for the last 12 years when the rise has occurred.

Jack Straw proved that on QT when he said he saw no problem in with open doors immigration and the population hitting 70 million.

Labour are locked into tunnel visioned,unpopular, unwanted delusional dogma.

Hurf Durf said...

Labour's been in power since 1997 and the Conservative's vote has risen progressively since then and it's the Tories fault for the BNP? Where do you jokers get this rubbish?

Anonymous said...

Unsworth..12.18.
Q1)'Is there a shred of truth in his allegations?
Q2)How can we tell?
A1)Sadly that is irrelevant,as the second part of your post can and will be obvious to everyone.
Q2)Just look at the number of immigrants allowed into Britain over the last decade.That is how we can tell.
So the mass immigration HAS happened whether 'his' allegations are true or false makes no odds. The immigration figures backs up 'HIS'case/story/opinion,call it what you will.

The King of Wrong said...

Geez! How are there so many people who claim to understand politics and have no idea what the terms "right-wing" or "fascist" mean?

Take a look at the "far right" Nazi 25-point-programme from the '20s and '30s: land reform, big state, increased welfare, pro-workers, opposition to wealth and unearned income. All, you might notice, left-wing policies.

The word "fascist", on the other paw, was devalued even as far back as 1944 when Orwell noted that it was - for most Englishmen - a synonym for "bully". Big-F Fascism was an authoritarian centre-left system: Corporatism is big on unions.

The BNP's policies are pro-worker, big state, economically interventionist and, incidentally, racist. They are far left. Which doesn't surprise anyone who does the reading, rather than just parroting "far right!", as the policies - and supporters - are hardcore Old Labour.

repossessed house investor said...

When the Islamic community gain more and more concessions, here and elsewhere in Europe as their numbers increase rapidly due to immigration and new births Griffin will be pleased that gentlemen will most certainly not be kissing in public.

Doubt me? Just go across to Amsterdam: under pressure nearly all the 'gay' clubs have disappeared from view (some are still there but not obvious)

We are getting in to a similar situation to Russia who turned to communism because the Tsar was completely out of touch with the people
If our present bunch of leaders do not respond extremely quickly I shudder to think what will happen to my beloved country Things do not look hopeful because the MPs and bankers have not learned their lesson and both are underestimating the response of the working classes

Quietzapple said...

If the BNP 'rises' much further they will become extinct.

Rosco said...

So how do you spot a real fascist?

1.They start a war to frighten and galvanise people behind them.

2.They collude in the torture and disappearance of their enemies.

3.They gain political control of the police and prosecuting authorities.

4.They order the arrest of political opponents while at the same time emezzling thousands of pounds from the public purse.

5.They install their supporters in highly paid government jobs and set up systems to eliminate any internal opposition by using aggressive propaganda.

6.They set up surveillance systems and ID cards.

7.They control education so you only learn what they want you to know.

8.They allow all sorts of petty officials to have power over the public including spying on you walking the dog or following your children to see if they really live where you say.

9.They set up secret inquests to cover up deaths at the states hands or even to cover up their incompetence at not providing basic kit.

The list is not exhaustive but it may give you a clue as to where to look.

Anonymous said...

Iain,

That the quote came an ex-labour advisor is not the point. It is your insinuation that the labour government sat in their offices stroking white cats, twirling moustaches and laughing maniacally as they execute their devilish plan to flood the country with foreigners (no Mr. Dale, I expect you to whinge!)

As for your left wing fascist point, the origins of the left wing/ right wing axis originate from the seating arrangements of the post-revolutionary French parliament, with monarchists on the right and the more ideologically revolutionary on the left. Clearly this isn’t a perfect fit for modern politics.

So uses of left wing/ right wing in modern day politics are necessarily subjective and to a large degree all definitions of these terms will fall short. Often people will select the definition that suits their viewpoint best. This is what you have done with your big government authoritarian/ small government libertarian axis. This axis only makes sense to you and you ideological fellow travellers (I think Glen Beck has used it before). It means all anarchists are on the far right and where does it leave Marxists? Marx’s utopia is one where there is no government. The authoritarian use of the levers of state is supposed to be a means to this end.

The definition of left wing/ right wing that I find best is one that is centred around the importance of equality. The centre ground of British politics is one roughly agreeable to equality of opportunity. We think everyone should have a ‘fair go’, agree with universal suffrage, equality before the law and no discrimination on grounds of race, sex or sexual orientation. The centre ground is both market and state agnostic.

To the left you have those who believe in redistribution of wealth to iron out societies innate inequalities. Further left you have people who believe in equality of outcome and on the extreme wing communists who believe we should all be treated the same to the extent that our humanity is lost and we are essentially slaves.

To the right of the centre you have those that believe we should discriminate in a non-pejorative sense, that good behaviour should be rewarded and bad behaviour punished and that yes, some people are better than others. Further right you have those that believe that elites make for better government, and you also have those that believe in national exceptionalism. On the extreme right, you have people who believe that we are so unequal that those who are deemed ‘inferior’ can be considered sub-human, and that normal moral codes of behaviour need not apply to their treatment.

As for the whole ‘National Socialist’ thing – well Hitler didn’t earn his special place in history because he built the effing autobahns, now did he!

Lloyd B

Jimmy said...

"I don't know if any academic work has been done in this area, but as a guess, I'd say that 80% of BNP voters are ex-Labour voters."

Well if you count polls as "academic wor" then yes. By and large BNP voters are ex-tory voters who will vote tory in the absence of a BNP candidate. All anyone needs to do is to read your post to see which party's views are closer to theirs. Not one of your better efforts I'm afraid.

Quietzapple said...

As people age they have tended to move to the right, failing to understand new circumstances in Britain & etc.

It is easy to imagine that Alf Garnett was Labour in 1945/50 (but v respectful of Sir Winston, and lying about his voting intention) and moved to BNP (Nat Front) or Tory subsequently.

Nazis have always made a pitch to the dispossessed, and those who imagine they are.

Conservatives have never liked their political neighbours, not enough forelock tugging, and they Love a Nob - no not Griffin, - but Chameleon, 'second' cousin to HM Queen.

Philipa said...

No it isn't. It's ALL mainstream parties, including the Conservative party.

Democracy is dead.

killemallletgodsortemout said...

So, the cat is out of the bag.

Now that the media/ZNL car crash that was QT has been aired, people seem to be rather more relaxed about talking in support of the BNP.

ZNL have managed to ruin the country with their social engineering, the Tories are powerless and speechless at this stage to do anything about anything and the LimpDems and Greens just don't count.

Now that the BNP have been given a public platform (Peter Hain must be as sick as a Skegness donkey!), and Griffin has said he has "changed his mind" on some of their policies all they have to do is a re-brand, a la Labour to New Labour.

People will flock to support the BNP in droves, I reckon, and should that be the case the Tories only have themselves to blame.

Vote Tory, get more of the same. Vote BNP, and your point of view may be heard.

Worth a risk? I think so.

Andrew Ian Dodge said...

To call the BNP "right" of any kind is just ludicrous. Read their manifesto, they are "national" socialist.

Elby the Beserk said...

Boothroyd, you blinkered fool. Have you not read this

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/6418456/Labour-wanted-mass-immigration-to-make-UK-more-multicultural-says-former-adviser.html

Wyrdtimes said...

Can we please stop calling immigration a British issue - it's England that's been deliberately swamped. It's England that has cities where whites are shortly to be the minority.

9 out of 10 immigrants prefer England

http://tinyurl.com/yhlg7o2
http://tinyurl.com/yfwd29g
http://tinyurl.com/yhplx7h

Tim said...

Jimmy 2:53pm,
Well that will explain why the BNP is getting councillors elected in Rotherham then, after all its been a die-hard hot bed of conservatism these 80 odd years.
I've been reading the other comments on here and am amazed to find so many do not understand where and why the BNP is getting its support. You should have seen the look on peoples faces when they opened there payslips when the 10% tax was actually removed. No one speaks for, or to them anymore, they feel abandoned, betrayed, even that they are being replaced by more 'acceptable' groups and BNP just latch on to this. Most are former labour supporters who cannot bring themselves to vote tory as they dont see anything for them in that party either.
If you need an example of how they really are ignored go look at the Newsnight report/debate on the alienation of the 'white workimg class' last Wednesday. The only goup not represented was the 'white working class', it is a perfect picture of the ignorance of the professional political elite and the media not understanding what they are talking about. Surreal to watch.

Anonymous said...

Iain!
Weird how many Tory blogs are keeping quiet about this story! I have a feeling many people out here are starting to draw their own conclusions & they aren’t good conclusions!!
Why do you think they’re not reporting it?

Quietzapple said...

The right do tend to get alll sensitive about the other "r" word we find . . .

Norton Folgate said...

You know you've hit a nerve when the Labour types are spamming and trolling with half arsed attempts at blaming everyone else for what they did over the last 12 years.

Simon Lewis said...

Why do we not mention the press who spread lies about immigrants getting free houses etc which are lies. Thw worst advocate of this is the Mail which has just about lost all credibility within the last week. Nothing wrong with getting people into plug the labour gap. Perhaps those in these areas who figure they have been failed by the Labour govt should stop expecting something for nothing and go and do some bloody work. That is what the new deal is for.

Quietzapple said...

Norton Folgate, who suggests "half arsed" as a metaphor, may not be fully aware of the important repetitive feeding habits of the rabbit he has chosen for his avatar . . .

In view of the current tendency for the Tory Leadership and prop Lord Ashcroft to keep the faithful in the dark, mushrooms come to mind . . .

Tony Sharp said...

Spot on Iain. You would have thought by now that Bob Piper would be honest about the Labour-BNP dynamic...

And absolutely spot on Doug @ 10:13am! The BNP is an extreme socialist party. It is more authoritarian than Labour (not an easy thing to be) and it defines its policies on racial grounds.

Other than those distinctions, Labour and the BNP are brothers - which is why the fight between them is so vicious.

Some people ask why the Tories do not pick up the votes of many Labour supporters who switch to the BNP. The explanation above should address that. After all, how many socialists want to vote for a conservative political party?

Voters who switch from Labour to the BNP are those people who, while blaming all their problems on blacks and Asians, still want big intrusive government, nationalised industry, powerful trade unions, increased taxes for wealth creators etc. It is nonsense to suggest the Tories are failing because they don't appeal to such people.

Unsworth said...

@ Anon 2:16 PM

Please read my comment again. My question was whether the story was, as alleged, a 'planned' job between 'Neather and Tory newspapers and blogs'. In other words, where is/was the evidence of such collusion?

Patrick said...

Why do you think they’re not reporting it?

October 24, 2009 4:59 PM

Because it shows nasty Nick might be right.

Anonymous said...

Broon and McLabour will see it as 'job done' now, becuase as they see it they have fulfilled their sole mission, certainly by the time they get kicked out of power next year they believe they will have flooded the country (that would be ENGLAND) with fresh Labour voting immigrants for in a term or so, and we will be signed over to McLabours EU employers.

....'Vote us out but its too late you gullible English fools...we've won'....

Thats the way Broon an co will be viewing it i assure you.

We WANT A REFERENDUM on the COnstitreaty!, if not then we want one on EU MEMBERSHIP!!!!

Because we can never fix this country while being in the EU!.

Pugwash said...

From what I understand, committing High Treason is perpetrating an act which constitutes a serious threat to the stability of the state. Surely a deliberate policy
of radically changing the cultural balance of the U.K. is such an act.
If any qualified person or persons want to bring a private prosecution against the individual or individuals responsible for such treachery I would willingly make a small contribution.

Irene said...

Hitler was elected as a Socialist.

Norton Folgate said...

Half arsed isn't a mataphore it's an idiom, and its meaning or usage bears no relation to rabbits and their digestive processes, of which i am aware thanks, nice try though.

El Sid said...

Duncan Stott (12:33) and Anonymous (1:25pm) are misinterpreting the YouGov megapoll. Saying that in the absence of any other choices they would "prefer to see" a Tory government led by Cameron to a Labour government led by Brown is not the same as "being Tory" or "being Labour". Hell, even 9% of those planning to vote Labour in the Euros (a hard core indeed) weren't sure about a Labour government led by Brown! And more recently there's been polling evidence that 37% of those who voted Labour in 2005 think Cameron would be a better leader than Brown. So I'm not sure that the question cast in terms of an either/or choice of Brown versus Cameron tells you that much.

I invite people to read this paper by Ford & Goodwin of Manchester University, particularly pp18-19, 28-30 and 38, for some good background on where BNP support is coming from (and some interesting comparisons with the old NF).

"Yet while other voters divide their attention between about half a dozen issues, BNP supporters focus on immigration almost to the exclusion of all else."

So if you ask BNP voters a question cast solely in terms of two parties that they don't plan on voting for, then they will make their decision solely on the parties' approach to immigration. And let's face it, the Brown/Labour approach ain't going to appeal to them, is it?

Anonymous (5.13am) is right to point out that the parents' voting question isn't perfect - but it's probably the least bad approach to investigating the tribal affinities of voters. I think most people have a pretty good idea of where their parents stood, and the 2:1 Labour:Tory ratio is pretty clearcut among those who were confident enough to say one way or the other.

Like I say, read that Ford & Goodwin paper. A telling example they bring up is a BNP campaign slogan :

"We are the Labour Party your grandfathers voted for"

Peter Thomas said...

"I'll tell you what is responsible for the rise of the BNP. It's a Labour government that has failed the communities which is used to regard as its client state."

Yes, Iain... but all three main political parties can take a big slice of the responsibility because they've all ignored the legitimate concerns of the electorate of this Nation, the two main ones being unfettered immigration and its consequences, and membership of the EU. And it isn't just the "white working class" as you political types like to say, who are switching to the BNP and other parties like UKIP, but a whole enormous section of the electorate from all walks of life. So a plague on all three main parties; they've sown the wind, and now we shall see where we go from here.

Jimmy said...

"I think most people have a pretty good idea of where their parents stood, and the 2:1 Labour:Tory ratio is pretty clearcut among those who were confident enough to say one way or the other."

This just getting silly now. Is fascism genetic?

Jimmy said...

"We are the Labour Party your grandfathers voted for"

Well if it's a slogan then it must be true.

trevorsden said...

'Tim said ...' correct. the white working class have been taken for granted and systematically sliced into useless bits by the left.

They have been left bereft because their jobs have been taken away by the destruction of our industries.
All parties are culpable to a degree but the unavoidable fact is that labour have been in power for nearly 13 years as the education system that might have prepared people for a new form of employment and then the traditional industries which might have employed them have been trashed under labour.

And the final horrible betrayal is labour encouraging immigration to cover up its own failings to deliver a serious economy and allow that economy to surf on a wave of debt - until it smashed on a rocky shore.

(My services are available as a speechwriter)

Tone Made Me Do It- he's a Traitor said...

This policy by Nu-Labour was TREASON, pure and simple.

Quietzapple said...

half arsed is a metaphor

noun
the profusion of metaphors in her everyday speech has gotten pretty tiresome figure of speech, image, trope, analogy, comparison, symbol, word painting/picture.

I shall draw no further analogy as to Folgate's half incorrect continuation.

repossessed house investor said...

Jack Straw in his opening address on QT in support of Asian troops fighting and dying for this country mentioned that at the Military Grave site at Peronne (I think he meant Peronne Road) in France, out of 577 graves 257 had Muslim names proving therefore that they fought and died. I can’t find any, am I wrong?

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gsr&GScid=2098568

I can’t believe he would lie about a thing like that, sorry, yes I can.

Steve Horgan said...

A great deal of discussion on whether the BNP is a right or left-wing party. However this can be detrmined empirically. Here in Basildon the BNP stood for every Council seat at the last elections. They came nowhere in traditionally Conservative seats, but had much higher votes in traditionally Labour seats. So, the reality is that the BNP fare better with a Labour-inclined electorate.

The best description I have heard of them is 'old Labour with racism'.

Anonymous said...

Although the BNP may have left wing tendencies - the collectivisation of the means of production is not one of them, it is wrong to associate that with 'socialism'. A 'socialist' party could never be nationalist (perhaps Stalinism in a way, but even Stalinism cannot be a racist ideology if it characterised as a communist system of control).

Although I can see some truth in the whole 'left wing' BNP arguement, it is a bit silly. Nazi Germany was characterised by racist corporatism, and - thus - could easily engage in extensive trade with Capitalism (unlike the Soviet Union).

By all means draw on the parallels between working class movements (such as the BNP and, to some extent, the Independent Labour movement), but a 'socialist' cannot credibly distinguish between two nationalities (they are both the exploited working class). The BNP clearly can. It is an important point if we wish to understand the BNP better. Go to 'redwatch', the BNP hate the left wing the most due to their complete devotion to ending working class exploitation, the BNP do not (it could be argued they seek to end British working class exploitation). These are very important distinctions. In my view, the right-left analogy has had its day.

Anonymous said...

Will the BNP stand in NI? On the leaked list there are only 49 members from NI, does any one know?

Neil A said...

I think it is reasonable to blame the rise in BNP support on poor quality immigration control, and to blame that (mostly) on the current government. I don't think it is fair to blame Labour directly for the rise of the BNP though. The vast majority of Labour politicians and activists have a visceral hatred of the BNP's racist agenda.

On the "is Fascism right or left?" argument I think there is evidence pointing both ways, so the answer is probably "neither". Both Hitler and (especially) Mussolini came to Fascism from the Left. But Franco's fascist movement was definitely linked to conservative-religious elements that were on the Right.

I don't think the fact that Fascism and Communism have locked horns so often is proof that they are from different ends of the spectrum though. I rather think of them as two ferrets in a sack, fighting over the same piece of meat (the votes of the working class). The middle and upper classes have flirted with the extremes, but generally the battle for their votes is fought between centre-Left and centre-Right politicians competing to be "liberal voices of reason".

Jo Anglezarke said...

I think people should try and dig themselves out of the pit of blaming the working class for the rise of the BNP (which I saw hinted at in Neil A's comment). Whilst this is in part explained by the working class not owning or earning much and therefore being more protective of it it doesn't always follow that BNP support comes from the working class.

Nick Griffin went to Cambridge himself - I find the only difference between m/c and w/c fascists to be language. W/c fascists can't be bothered to hide it while m/c BNP supporters hide it behind other issues so they can faintly attack immigration without appearing racist.

Much like the Tories actually. This is why the Tories will lose w/c support to the BNP.

MixTogether said...

Well said Mr Dale.

Not only have Labour pushed immigration to rub the right's nose in it, but they have proved unwilling to help solve the inevitablecultural problems that have accompanied immigration.

Donut Hinge Party said...

Can't remember the figures, but I'm pretty sure that in the areas that the BNP won in on the European Election, BNP support had actually gone DOWN in real terms, but not as much as Labour had.

So basically, the ex-Labour voters couldn't bring themselves to vote for ANYONE, let alone the Tories in the area, and the intractable bigots carried on as they always did.

So the very thing that you're criticising Labour for is not sticking to the left wing policies that you and the Tory party are against, which has driven them to abandon all engagement with politics.

The answer, then, to eliminate the BNP, assuming that individuals can't have their political views significantly altered, is to support and encourage the legitimisation of left wing values in the labour party, though it may stick in your craw.

Anonymous said...

Unsworth.6.27.
Your question is irrelevant,like I said.
Let me explain.(Be patient)
Have you ever been to one of those 'brainstorming'sessions? You know the ones...where management are totaly clueless at what they are doing so they 'pretend' to be clever and get us real thicko's to give them the answers & us being the thicko's we are...give them everything they need to go back to their bosses and take all the credit.
Well that is what will happen here.
People will'brainstorm'with themselves.
They will look at Labour's track record.Labour's actions,lies, smears and come to the conclusion they wouldn't put it past them. Then they will look at the immigration figures & give the guy the benefit of the doubt.Why should he be the 'liar' when everyone knows that it is Labour who are ALWAYS lying.So in Joe public's mind they will have the following thoughts;

Labour are liars(proven many times)
Labour Hate the English.
Labour HATE the Tories.
Point scoring is what Labour do.

Immigration- unfetted,
encouraged,muslim extremists unchallenged,sham court appearances Labour KNEW would fail because of the human rights crap.

Average Joe will believe Labour would do this and that says MORE about Labour's standing in this country, than it does about the people who are willing to believe Labour would do something like this.
So you see it makes no difference whether it was a 'conspiracy' or not.Joe public will view it more as whistleblowing.
The proof is out there.
Everything will now appear to 'calm down' the Bnp will be off the radar for a while,then a poll will emerge that 'jolts' them back into view, because Labour and their nasty,vile,spiteful actions have some how managed to con the media to hide the truth.
The British ARE great,but push them until they turn and they WILL NOT turn back until they GET WHAT THEY WANT.A lesson a lot of people are not going to like.

Wavid said...

I am sorry but if you believe that the BNP are a far left fascist party then I have absolutely no respect for your politics. It shows a rather niaive view of politics, a lack of historical knowledge and an inability to contectualise events, political movements and ideologies. It is those sort of comments, along with a list that is forever growing, that convinces me never to vote Tory ever in my life!

Anonymous said...

Simon Lewis said...

"Nothing wrong with getting people into plug the labour gap."

Labour gaps??? Would that be anything to do with the doctors who can't find jobs because they get given to foreign medical staff? Or the British IT staff who have not been able to work in IT this century as the market has been rigged so that foreign staff can be used???

There's a lot of money to be made from pretending there is a shortage of British staff.


"That is what the new deal is for."

The New Deal is crap. The Flexible New Deal is exactly the same rubbish with a slave labour option. You think the working class are a bit miffed with the NuLab traitors? Wait til they fully realise that New Labour means New Slavery. Should be nicely in time for the general election.

Quietzapple said...

The Donut has it pretty much:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/table/2009/jun/09/european-elections-elections-2009

UKIP did extraordinarily well because xenophobia is more a la mode than racism, though the two tend to go together.

Neil A said...

@Jo Anglezarke,

I absolutely accept that not all BNP support comes from the working class, and quite a number of their leadership are educated, middle class people. There are some "middle class" areas where they are strong (Epping in Essex for example). But I don't think there's really any doubt that the electoral fortunes of both Fascists and Communists depend on motivating working class voters to support them. I think it comes down to the tight grip that the wealthier classes have on society's gravy train. There are two ways to look at it from the working class; a) Be aspirational and try to "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" and leave the working class or b) become part of a movement that is going to "smash the old order" and give you what you deserve. B) is pretty much the rhetoric of both Fascism and Communism. Most comfortablely-off individuals are not especially attracted to the idea of smashing an order that has served them well.

And I slightly resent the idea that "faintly attacking immigration" means that people (including the Tories) are racist. Let me be quite clear- if immigration into the UK were to continue at the rate of 20,000 people per year, and as a consequence in 200 years time white europeans were a minority, I wouldn't have the slightest problem with it. Not because I'd obviously be long dead, but because at that rate of immigration the new arrivals would be absorbed and assimilated, they would adopt UK cultural attitudes and habits (albeit bringing some additional flavour and changing those attitudes/habits over time), they would learn and use the English language, and feel a proper sense of identifying with and being loyal to the UK (or at least to England/Ireland/Scotland/Wales). They wouldn't be Celt, Anglo-Saxon or Norman-French, but they would without question be "British".

However if we carry on accepting immigration at the current rate (over 200,000 per year at least, not that the government really knows) then it is likely we will end up with a fragmented, balkanised Britain where English is the language of mutual understanding for everyone but the first language only of a minority. "Britishness" (or Englishness/Scottishness etc) will cease to mean anything other than the physical location in which you live. That is the pervasive fear that rapid immigration creates in the population. And it doesn't just concern the white population. Many people in existing immigrant communities are worried about "their" Britain changing and losing what makes it special to them. Go and speak to young, Westernised women of Bangladeshi or Pakistani origin who have "gone British" and drink, dance, live independently. See what they think about the area where they live receiving an annual injection of thousands of new arrivals from the old country, with their traditionalist thinking and religious values.

I'm sorry but if what you are saying is "Opposing immigration is racist and no mainstream party should countenance it" then what you are doing is leaving the field clear for the BNP to hoover up the votes not of a few percent but of the majority of the population.

Anonymous said...

The BNP win in Labour areas because the anti- Labour vote there congregates around them.

It's the 50% of the constituency who would never vote Labour. Alf Garnett has been mentioned here as the classic example.

Labour supporters aren't racist. That's one of the reasons why they're Labour supporters. The racists stopped voting Labour forty years ago.

You have to be pretty ignorant not to grasp this but then opposition to immigration and opposition to the EU requires a level of silliness that people here revel in.

Neil A said...

@anonymous 9:51 am

Nice resort to the old "if you don't agree with me you must be silly/stupid/racist" chestnut.

I agree that to some extent the "anti-Labour vote" coalesces around the BNP (although you must mean the Tory/UKIP vote as I doubt LibDems and Greens would do any coalescing) but what you are ignoring is the question "Why are the people of this council estate in Lancashire anti-Labour?". These are often areas where Labour would in the past get over 2/3rds of the vote, whoever they put up as a candidate. I don't think the Tory/UKIP vote in those areas could ever be enough to give victory to a BNP candidate, however much they coalesced. Besides which I am sure there are many anti-Labour voters on the right who would never dream of voting BNP.

Neil A said...

Ah, the old "if you don't agree with me you must be silly/stupid/racist" chestnut.

Anonymous said...

Saying people are silly/ stupid for disagreeing with you seems to be the done thing on this site. On this thread it starts in the very first contribution.

Calling people silly here however is only ever complained about as an "old chestnut" when anti- racists say it back about racists and their unknowing helpers though.

Jo Anglezarke said...

I don't understand why people oppose immigration so much - I wouldn't be here and a lot of others wouldn't either if we didn't accept immigrants.

Also there is no real concept of 'Britishness' - there were no nations or borders until the onset of capitalism/industrialisation - fundamentally what it comes down to is the assumed power people think they have over their country. The British Empire certainly favoured immigration when it suited them economically.

We actually need more immigrants into the country from where I'm standing. Polish workers in Somerset drive a large percentage of our buses which has enabled a lot of bus services to continue. There is still a shortage of British people who want to drive a bus for little above the minimum wage. What is your answer? I suppose cut services...

Anonymous said...

Thank God for Anglezarke.

Of course the country needs more immigrants. We aren't even going to be sustainable financially without probably 10million more coming.

There's masses of space here, from Lancaster to Glasgow it could be Newfoundland the population is so sparse. There's also plenty of room in North Kent, South essex and East London.

Immigration has been improving this country since the Romans came in 44BC and brought civilisation to the blue painted inhabitants.

I think these BNP people should have to prove their DNA before they claim they're indigenous British.

Neil A said...

@Jo,

Paragraph 1 - I too wouldn't be here if we didn't accept migrants either. My father was born abroad, and I have a non-English surname.

Paragraph 2 - Nations and borders have existed for thousands of years. I assume you're referring to "the Nation State" which is more recent, but much older than you suggest. And if there's no such thing as Britishness, is there no such thing as Englishness, Welshness, Scottishness, Irishness, Frenchness? You are entitled to your view, but I don't think many people in the world share it.

Paragraph 3 - We have almost 3m unemployed in this country, plus millions more on incapacity benefit many of whom are capable of some kind of work. Short answer to your question: "Welfare Reform".

Unsworth said...

@ Anon 1:09 AM

Irrelevant? In your view.

And no, I really do not have the patience to read through all of that guff. Why not start a blog for yourself and then those who may be interested in your extended views can indulge themselves.

iain said...

Hey, Iain, leave Braindead Bob 'Comments 0' Piper alone. He is comedy gold. Check his spoof piece on the glorious Thatcher years below.

It is a spoof, isn't it? :-(


'A nationally controlled police force, undercover hit squads of thugs terrorising Northern towns, using MI5 for illegal phonetaps of whole communities, closing the roads around whole counties, stopping legitimate protesters from leaving Kent, controlling the BBC to reverse film footage to show their thugs being attacked by the police instead of the other way round, preventing elected politicians voices being broadcast... that's authoritarianism'

Anonymous said...

Unsworth..2.14.
Nice to see you are a gallant loser.

Pete from Sheffield said...

Iain, please use your influence within the Conservative Party to persuade David Cameron and the other big guns that they must address this shocking revelation about the Labour governments secret plan to impose massive multi-culturalism on the UK.

If the Conservative Party fail to tackle this scandal head on then I fear that the BNP will gain huge impetus amongst alienated and angry voters.

Anonymous said...

Clearly the BNP gain more support from ex-Labour voters. It is no wonder. Wearing my Union hat I have had the 'pleasure' of meeting some of the Labour placemen (sorry placepeople) in areas like the rotten Borough of County Durham. I would vote for almost anyone except them. I really can't sum-up their absolute corruption in words - and I pride myself in being able to turn a phrase!

LM said...

I love the comment that Howard lost by a landslide in 2005. Since when has an overall majority of 66 been a landslide?

Luke Akehurst said...

Iain, you say "I hadn't realised that Blackburn, Burnley, Rotherham, Dewsbury, Dagenham and Barking had ever been Conservative constituencies".

Just for the record, Dewsbury was a Conservative seat from 1983 to 1987. Barking and Dagenham were both marginals that the Tories narrowly failed to take at the same time. So was Blackburn. There is a clear linkage in Barking and Dagenham between the collapse of the local Tory and Lib Dem organisations and the rise of the BNP. Neither the Tories nor the LDs ran full slates of candidates in B&D in 2006 (almost uniquely in London) so anyone wishing to vote against the Labour Council was driven into the arms of the BNP.

There is very little point getting into a blame game about who caused the rise of the BNP. The point is to stop it. And the evidence so far is they fade away when the three main parties go back into an area and start grassroots campaigning there. People vote BNP when they think the main parties don't care because they never see them, so those of us who are activists in all three major parties have a responsibility to build our party structures in areas where the BNP are strong.

David Lindsay said...

Fascist movements are never, ever working-class. They are lower-middle-class, with a few upper-class cranks hanging about and paying the bills. The BNP is exactly like that. A ward-by-ward or box-by-box breakdown of its vote fully confirms this.

There is no reaching the BNP constituency. It is a ghetto of people obsessed with race, which most of us simply are not and never will be. They used to vote NF if they could get it, Tory if they couldn’t. But now, because so many other people no longer vote, they are sufficiently numerous among those who still do to be able to maintain the BNP. But it’s vote didn’t go up this year. Other people’s went down, by means of abstention. The key is to get those people back out to vote.

That certainly does involve addressing national sovereignty (including, but very far from restricted to, the EU) and immigration, among many, many, many other things. It involves making a stand against polygamy, face-covering (not head-covering, but face-covering), Muslim schools, animal sacrifice, genital mutilation of both sexes, and domes and minarets on British skylines. (Halal meat is a serviceable weapon in the armoury against the hunting ban.) And that’s just Islam. There are other things, too. Mass immigration is at least as much an economic project of the neoliberal Right as a cultural project of the liberal Left. Indeed, rather more so.

Getting people back out to vote also involves tackling white working-class concerns about jobs, working conditions, housing, and public services. New Labour is of course the perfectly logical union of the economically neoliberal Right and the culturally liberal Left, now accepted by all three parties. So let’s give ourselves proper alternatives. To bring people out against the BNP. But mostly just because it’s the right thing to do. What are you doing?

However, none of this is about reaching BNP voters. They are a lost cause. It is about bringing out those whose abstentions aid the BNP by default. But more than that, it just happens to be right anyway. I’m doing my bit. How about you?

Anonymous said...

Iain

If the past 12 years have taught us anything then you should realise that Labour are never, ever to blame for anything.

End of story, nothing to see here, let's move on.

Magical_Mist said...

"A late night post that you might regret in the cold light of day. On immigration I suggest that you listen to Michael Portillo who talks rather more sense. Perhaps you need a holiday Iain. This type of smear is unworthy of you..."
What the hell are you talking about? You clearly can't see sense.