Ugh – just had the worst experience on the tube – some dumb liberal heard me speaking with a friend and deliberately started talking in a loud voice about the American Gov’t staging 9/11. I asked her to take her offensive views out of my earshot. Of course the whole carriage started making anti-american remarks and then some Asian girl challenged me to a fight – said I didn’t know anything about the sufferings of her people. It escalated and she spat in my face at Charing Cross. The staff called police – they were really nice and said that since her DNA was all over me they would gladly take her in but I told them I didn’t want to tie them up for 7 hours with paperwork but just to escort her out.
It is really getting to the point that the minute I open my mouth these days I get some asshole on my case and then they think it is a-ok to make anti-American remarks but God forbid I should hit back! I am just soooo sick of it!
Stephen Pollard has had a similar experience when wearing Stars & Stripes cufflinks!
Monday, May 19, 2008
A Very UnSpecial Relationship
This is from a good friend of mine who happens to be American - and female. Her experience brings shame on not just those who insulted her, but those who stood by.
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Why did your friend use such an imprecise term as "Asian"? Her experience is disgusting and I don't blame her for just wanting to get away, but why use a politically correct term to describe your assailant? If the spitting slag was a Muslim, I think that is key. I absolutely cannot imagine a Hindu or a Sikh behaving so; nor a Chinese nor a Japanese, nor a Thai, etc.
This question doesn't diminish my sympathy with her for a ghastly and hostile experience, but why was your friend complicit in the Big Deceit?
Sounds like a bit sensationalist. Cannot imagine a carriage turning on her - most people would ignore the situation and look the other way! Don't believe her. Yes there is anti-Americanism but I cannot see this scenario being played out. And I am an American. And liberal.
She should move to Wales. The worst that could happen to her here is getting cast to appear in Torchwood.
If the world is a conspiracy, then it is a remarkably unsuccessful conspiracy.
And in the case of 11th September 2001, the truth is far worse than a mere inside job. That day was indeed the happiest day in the life of George Bush (at last, something that could be used to bring about his otherwise inconceivable second term as President), and also in the lives of the neocons whose unwitting (because witless) puppet he was and is (at last, an excuse to take out Iraq, Iran, Syria...). But that was not because of any sort of conspiracy.
Rather, it was because, in their own terms, they had suddenly found themselves lucky beyond their wildest dreams.
Yes, it really was, and it really is, as bad as that.
Was Blair happy on 7/7? At the very least, I doubt that he minded too much. Of course, such things are nothing new here. And they are always an excuse to dust down the file containing ID cards, prolonged detention without charge (not trial, charge), yet further erosions of trial by jury, and all the rest.
Even when the IRA nearly blew up Margaret Thatcher or nearly mortar bombed John Major, there was continuous, though publicly denied, contact, leading to the present arrangement whereby Sinn Fein is formally guaranteed a permanent place in the government of Northern Ireland, and effectively allowed to run its designated areas however it likes. Inhabitants of areas with large Muslim populations, ponder these things.
Yes, it really was, and it really is, as bad as that.
That will all change once Obama becomes President. Obama will restore the good name of America across the world.
America will be cool again once Obama is President! The world will rejoice when Bush leaves the White House.
I'm an American living in the UK too. I can totally understand the bad feeling towards George Bush and the US government - but it's a great shame that this anger is misdirected at decent people (who probably despise George Bush and the Republicans as well).
Go Obama! We need you!
How awful, and after they saved our asses in two world wars too.
New McLabour
New McBritain
New "Brits"
Can't expect to be allowed to walk all over the world and make the UK look stupid and not have people in their own country make comments.
Sort of sums up the American attitude at the moment, telling someone in a different country that they aren't allowed to air their own deranged views.
Relationships only work with compromise, and that's not a word in the current hegemon's vocab.
From what she said, it sounds like no one 'stood by' - but everyone started to slag her off. It is shameful - and I have to tell you Iain, that if anyone had have gobbed in my face they'd be picking up their shattered teeth with broken arms.... IMHO, she should get out of the basket case that is London and relocate to a provincial city..... (mind you, I advise everyone living in London to do that).
that is disgusting and shameful, especially the threat of personal violence and - most especially - spitting in someone's face. I feel for your friend.
But "I asked them to take their offensive views our of my earshot"?
No. Had they responded, politely and calmly, "I can express any views I choose in a public place, and will continue to do so." I'm afraid I would be on their side.
Perhaps it was slightly unwise for your friend to ask someone to 'take their offensive views out of her earshot'. After all, if she found those views so repellent she presumably could have moved to a position where she was not so troubled. If that had been said to me I think I might just have told the person saying it to piss off.
Your friend has also made the assumption that this was a deliberate act. Maybe so. But that does not constitute a God Given Right to expect others to move out of her hearing range. And, incidentally, what sort of distance might that be - five or ten or fifty yards or a couple of miles?
As to 'it escalated', yes, well in my limited experience it does take two to make an argument. Is this another example of the Victim Culture we seem to have acquired from across the Atlantic?
Your friend would have been better off treating the 9/11 comment with the contempt it deserved... ie complete disregard. What did she gain? Nothing. What did her tormentors gain? Some idea that she had something to defend.
Just in case any of you think this woman is a bit over-enthusaistic, can I just point out the following?
I was born in the US of A, but turned up here here c 1987 and went on to complete first a BA and then a PhD at one of the larger Oxbridge colleges.
Fast-forward. It is now 2008. I am well into my 40s, married to an Englishman, with a 3-year old son. Do I tell this son that he is, in some sense, half American? (As I now carry a UK passport, and did so before he was born, this 'half' is debatable.)
I can more or less 'pass', as my red-neck southern neighbours might have put it, as British much of the time. Does my son need to know he stems from what is surely one of the most hated nations on earth? I am, at many levels, proud of the men in my family who died in the course of American wars, as well as the men who fought bravely and survived. But is there any point at which it becomes appealing to introduce to my little boy the legacy of hatred and mistrust which is, in this country, his birthright? Or is he better off shutting up about it all, and pretending that he's all British (as he more or less is, if one takes the 300-year view)?
Either way, though, this is a real problem. There are few groups of people in the world who can expect a rougher ride than US citizens in the UK at present. I remember, at university, being reduced to tears at the idea that the US had 'lost' the Vietnam War (a debatable notion, no easier to debate given that my childhood playmates' siblings had died in that war) and that the US was 'a theocracy. Well, maybe that's true. Oh, I'm still proud of the good and decent men in my family who gave their last drop of blood for silly little things like getting rid of slavery in the US. But do I want my son to put up will all the hatred, bigotry and nonsense that a semi-American accent will generate? 'Hell no', as my North American relatives might have put it. He's down for an independent school here and, God help us, they'll sort out his accent and simplify his life.
I am seeing an old female American friend soon (we both live in London). I am worried now that I might have to fight my way off public transport.
@ordovicius - the worst that could happen in Wales is if she spoke with an English accent.
Iain, hope your friend is ok.
Bloody disgusting - this is not our way. This is not the British way.
Whatever the hell happened to our sense of reserve?
This story simply doesn't ring true.
Funny how it is okay for people to spout offensive views in a public place as long as they are anti-American. What if I were to spout offensive views about another ethnic group - I would be pilloried. Free speech does not mean you can yell 'fire' in a crowded cinema. It must always be tempered and it should not cause offence.
Verity - I called her Asian because that is what she was - she may well have been a Muslim but I didn't know for absolute sure.
And Jack - you don't believe me? It should happen to you. With bells on.
"Special Relationship"
We see the limits to which this so-called relationship extends when individual Americans are picked on because of the policies of their government.
I'd prefer to see the kind of "Honest Relationship" most other European countries manage to have with the USA, but I guess any future Tory Government would revert to type.
As for your friend, she was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time.
"but it's a great shame that this anger is misdirected at decent people (who probably despise George Bush and the Republicans as well)."
Canvas - re your latest witless drooling, does your nomme de guerre indicate that you canvassed everyone in the carriage and determined that all the Americans therein despise Mr Bush? Your arguments belong in the Sixth Form not a blog for adults.
I agree, though. "Go, Obama!" Please! A long way away! Change that no sane person would believe in.
Does anyone have the faintest idea what Will 4:46 p.m. is trying to say? And Anon 4:49?
Gosh, that's almost as bad as invading someone else's country.
GS, so you are accusing my friend of lying. How very typical. I can assure you that she is not lying. I know her very well and if she tells me something it will be the God's honest truth.
P.S. It's an arsehole, not an asshole.
Thought you didn't allow swearing on this blog?
Verity: the American term "Asian" is approximately the same as the British term "Oriental".
I'm disappointed but not surprised. It's been the case for years (even before Bush) that the one group it's considered OK to be racist about is the Americans. Score one for the liberal elite who think that America is the worst country in the world and Britain is the second worst.
This sounds very unpleasent, and I do sympathise, but to say of free speech :“It must always be tempered and it should not cause offence,” does not chime with my view of either the British or American sense of the concept.
GS, you are wrong. This is what people with North American accents deal with in the UK, right now, every day. I promise you, it really is exactly that bad.
GS,
Like I said to Jack Simons - it should happen to you. In spades.
Anonymous 4:58 - my son is now 18 and he too has both passports and he too has been subjected to anti-American crap from his classmates and even a teacher. I reported her to the Head. Still, it's not nice but it is something I have encountered for years - Iraq only made it worse.
I have the same experience, my girlfriend is American and when we visit Britain to see family we have the same problems.
It's usually the bl00dy liberal Guardian reading do-gooders, those who have no idea of what an individual's views or political bias is (my gf is liberal and is working on Obama's campaign). They hear an American accent and presume everyone implicitly voted for Bush.
It's why I won't live in Britain anymore. Full of ignorant @rseholes who are tacitly allowed (by the refusal of their peers) to get away with behaving like this.
I can't condone the event but why didn't she say she was appalled at Bush's actions.
She would have got a round of applause.
Blame George Bush. It's that simple.
So what's new? Americans are constantly landing uninvited in other people's countries - telling them what they can and can't say, ordering them about from one place to the next.
Oh I see...
" The Woman in the Tube said...
Funny how it is okay for people to spout offensive views in a public place as long as they are anti-American. What if I were to spout offensive views about another ethnic group - I would be pilloried. "
Yes, you would. But I'd still speak out in defence of your right to do it.
In a shop the other day An American lady was talking to the cashier when the person behind them said very loudly, something like, " we don't like Americans here, you should piss off ."
This was in rural Eastbourne! Not Bradford Bowl, or Birmingham New Street.
What had the USA resident done? Spoken in another accent. Nothing to do with the person behind them. Not saying anything political or controversial, just something about where to get a phonecard.
The person who called out looked so smug. A big smirky grin, like they had made a big scoring point on Question Time. The girl who had called out was clearly expecting a round of applause or something
All they had really said was, "Yanks, go home".
How original.
Don't be too harsh on "GS" Iain.
Since yesterday's "tale from the Premier Inn", your credibility (regarding stories from friends) has taken a bit of a knock.
1. To your informant: please accept my apologies on behalf of those who abused you and who really are British. As for the illegals, we are as helpless as you.
2. To your informant: please understand why this happens. The war in Iraq is illegal = Muslims pissed off; they blame Bush Jnr. closely followed by Bliar [strike that] Blair.
3. To your informant: always judge people by the paper they are reading. It saves a lot of time.
It's tribal. This woman spat at your friend not because of any well-thought-out views on Iraq or Bush or Neocons or anything else, but simply because she had identified someone who was not a member of the liberal tribe.
They used to spit on Jews and Blacks for the same reason; different tribe.
Walk tall, and be proud of the USA. We Brits owe you a debt which we can never repay.
Inner London is a cesspool of maleducated middle-class liberal turds who don't know they're born or understand the spectacular benefits they receive from the existence and excellence of the United States.
Your friend's experience is disgusting and good Londoners in all of their city's spirit of equality and diversity should hit back at this racism and xenophobia directed towards the Americans that propel London today. These Hampstead liberals need to be told.
Lovely. I'm bringing three friends over to London at the end of June to show them what a great place Britain is. Two of us (incl. me) have just naturalized as US Citizens. Looks like we're going to have a wonderful experience (er)!
This is hate crime pure and simple. If the victim had been from a different identifiable group such as one based on skin colour rather than accent, it would be regarded as "racist". The other passengers would have taken more positive action, no doubt. But it seems in Ignorant Britain that it is socially acceptable to hate the Americans. It is classic bigotry and would not be tolerated if the variables were slightly different.
What a laugh all the sad deluded liberals are that have poured out their invective thanks to this thread.
Yeah, the US is hated and its all down to George Bush.
You would never think that the Iranians rewarded Jimmy Carter for selling the Shah of Iran down the river by taking over the US Embassy in Tehran - would you. Good old appeasing Jimmy Carter - remember him do you?
Obama won't get elected, but I almost wish he would - it will be in instructive to see how the left will react when Obama's appeasement is met with further atrocity. And it will.
By the way a good friend of mine is a 'liberal' he dislikes America even though he has never been ther never really met an American but as far as he is concerned ALL Americans are well, evil, even you Democrat ones. He is deluded, we regularly have enjoyable arguments (at least I enjoy them) and is upset when I point that his attitudes are racist.
I feel very sorry for what happened to your friend, Iain. It is totally unacceptable and it makes me ashamed that we have such people living in this country. My girlfriend is American, and a registered Democrat at that! If anyone had been so insulting towards her, I would probably have beaten seven shades of shit out of them and thrown them on the track.
The assailant obviously wasn't wearing a niqab or face veil as she was able to spit. Is this the first good reason for them being worn?
Good old verity - recognise a muslim? They don't wear little crescents you know - you can't recognise one on sight. The only religions you might hazard a guess at are those where the dress is so obvious as to be unmistakeable - perhaps Sikhs and orthodox Jews - or they are a priest in the relevant religion. Most of us would not make as assessment without some good evidence.
The whole experience does sound hideous and I am very sorry for the person involved.
Obviously the fellow travellers' behaviour was unacceptable.
But your friend's use of the words "some dumb liberal" make me wonder what she had been saying which led the "dumb liberal" to spout the nonsense which she did.
The average liberal in the UK does not think, let alone say, that the US government staged 9/11.
Very sorry this horrible experience has happened to anyone, but when she asked the man to move like that, did she shout it? Certainly, the whole carriage seems to have heard her. It may have kicked things off. If that man really thinks 9/11 was an inside job he's rather worse than a liberal or idiot, yet even a deluded shit has the same right right to a seat as she did.
I'm afraid some people will focus their anti-W and anti-Iraq war anger on the only Americans they can get hold of. Anti-American sentiment is nothing new but has become more virulent of late. Pro-Americans are abundant but are being a bit quieter. It'll get better when the current über-hawks leave the Whitehouse.
It's not really relevant, but does this lady know 'Asian' means something completely different over here?
It does sound a little unlikely, could you imagine a carriage full of people reacting in such a manner?
Anonymous 5:17 - "Americans are constantly landing uninvited in other people's countries" ... you are confusing them with the French I think.
http://www.cfr.org/publication/12578/
http://www.marxist.com/Africa/ivory_coast_intervention.htm
http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/1/7/8/6/2/p178629_index.html
"Between 1960 and 2005, France launched 46 military operations in its former colonies in Africa"
You can always tell a liberal by his lack of education.
Sounds very partisan Iain. Your friend - who is presumably really male and Canadian pretending - makes it sound like she/he did nothing apart from asking someone (she/he doesn't say politely, so we must assume not) to shut up or fuck off. Which even politely is quite provocative.
"Some dumb liberal"? "Some Asian girl"? "Some asshole"?
Unpleasant to be spat upon, yes. Unpleasant also to be told to shut up by some reactionary American with attitude. Perhaps by-standers in general support free speech and don't like bullies?
When the situation escalated out of hand - through no fault of your diplomatic friend of course - she got appropriate help and would have been supported to press charges if she had wished.
In court though the whole thing would have been forensically examined with both sides getting a say. Unlike on this blog where reactionary trouble maker who cannot tolerate strange views expressed nearby gets a clear run without fear of contradiction.
Ridiculously thin.
Without being there it is not a good idea to pass judgement. All I will say is that, for some reason, the North American voice generally carries a long way in public places and sounds hectoring and crass to the Western European ear.
I have just returned from Switzerland - from a town with a large American enclave. The only voices you overheard in cafes were American voices, not French, not German, not Italian or English. None of them within my earshot even attempted to greet the waiter in French and all of them were loud and intrusive.
As I took the cog railway down the mountain one morning at 7 a.m, when most people are half awake, one lone American was talking loudly into her phone. It's arrogance, pure arrogance.
Your friend should learn to shut up and remember she is polluting the environment by being overheard at all. It's just not done in this country and she should understand that.
I think if your friend would have kept quite and respect others right to express their views on America, is called freedom of speech and protected by their cherished First Amendment, she wouldn't have got into the whole trouble. Some Americans are like fundamentalists when it comes to talking about 9/11. Not sure if you would have raised an eyebrow Iain if this would have been one of the thousands of incidents happening to non-white Brits in London everyday. Nevermind verity's comment that simply states the argumentative simplicity of the racist.
J - Not necessarily. Had the woman been a Chinese, Japanese, Thai, Korean, etc., she would not have behaved so. Iain's friend used the term "Asian" in the full understanding of what that conveys in Britain - she has responded to my question - because although she thought she might be Muslim, she wasn't sure. Meaning, the slag wasn't wearing pantomime headgear.
In addition, still per your post, you refer to it being OK to be "racist" about Americans. You seem to have a very Gramscian definition of "racism" give that American citizens come in all races.
Canvas said: "Blame George Bush. It's that simple." So are you, sweet thang.
If this news was reported in America, British or specifically "English" people would get the blame for the attack, when in fact, the attacker by her OWN account probably wouldnt even count herself as "British" and certainly not "English" even if she is 2nd, 3rdrd or 4th Generation.
She probably takes the identity of her Grandparents whatever that may be.
I am guessing your correspondent likes making comments on public transport "sotto voce" that can be heard by people nearby. She got her comeuppance.
I note the reference to "some dumb liberal", as though Conservatives are immune from anti-American sentiment.
Classy bird.
Iain - think about this from the opposite perspective. Maybe your friend was wrong, or over-sensitive, in assuming that this nutcase had heard her voice and was speaking like this because of her.
So, from the perspective of "the Asian" maybe there were a couple of people having an innocent stupid chat about 911 conspiracies, and then some loud American woman marches over and tells them to shut up. You can see why that would cause hostility.
In my experience, people rarely believe they are behaving unreasonably. The assumption should always be confusion and cock-up.
Iain,
just because someone is your friend doesnt make what they do or say in public okay. Does it? Ask her what she actually said and why this would provoke a verbal attack. We live in a great country where people cannot make racist or sexist or homophobic accounts in public.
For me personally having been on the tube with my arm around my boyfriend's shoulder (discreetly) and watching some people further up the carriage making "shove up the arse" hand motions I wish I had the bravery to challenge them and trust me I am not a shy retiring flower by any means.
People who are black, Asian or gay in this city are standing up for themselves. We are not second class citizens and you cannot sit there on public transport and ridicule us. Expect to get a reaction if you do or shut up.
Iain - think about this from the opposite perspective. Maybe your friend was wrong, or over-sensitive, in assuming that this nutcase had heard her voice and was speaking like this because of her.
So, from the perspective of "the Asian" maybe there were a couple of people having an innocent stupid chat about 911 conspiracies, and then some loud American woman marches over and tells them to shut up. You can see why that would cause hostility.
In my experience, people rarely believe they are behaving unreasonably. The assumption should always be confusion and cock-up.
Verity. 'Asian' is a quite acceptable description. The question should be why is that particular Asian woman (who SPITS!!!) in this country? She obviously has no loyalty to us!
I do certainly agree with ordovicus
I have found the Welsh very very friendly and helpful. More that can be said for Devonians! and not at all as 'Stuart Says' suggets.
I do not speak Welsh and live a stone throw from the birth place of Owen!!
I have to quibble with her labeling the 9/11 'truther' a liberal, no liberal would behave like that, but as she's American and the term has become so corrupted over there its understandable.
For Americans 'asian' tends to mean Indian subcontinent and that area rather than the far east as we tend to mean.
As for anti-americanism - just checked with my wife - she doesn't get it directly except when she has a go at someone for doing something rude, although she does find people forget she's American and start discussing how awful Americans are (except her of course).
To the apologists, Wrinkled Weasel et al, for racism who assume that because I am an American I have a loud voice - tell me do you think all black people can dance? What a bunch! No, it was the idiot liberal who had the loud voice which is why I heard her disgusting comment. No one, and I mean no one is going to get away with saying that crap in front of me and not get challenged. And for the smart aleck who thinks they know about something about the First Amendment - freedom of speech does not mean shouting fire in a crowded cinema or saying hurtful or insulting things to others. It is merely common courtesy, something which you and the spitting slag know nothing about. Really, what a crew!
Oh and I see Chris Paul is operating at his usual(sub) level. Some things never change.
@ The Woman in the Tube
"Funny how it is okay for people to spout offensive views in a public place as long as they are anti-American"
Nonsense. What's your view of anti-Welsh, anti-Scots, anti-Irish, anti-Jewish, anti-English etc etc etc comment in a public place? You seriously believe Americans are solely the 'victims' of adverse (and bigoted) comment? Come off it.
Would you care to offer your definition of 'Asian'? Chinese? Malaysian? Japanese? Singaporean? Thai? Laotian? Korean? etc etc etc. Or do you (wrongly) regard those from the Indian continent as being 'Asian'?
Would you care to examine your sentiments when dealing with this woman - who may actually have been British?
You don't like hearing such things being said? There's a very simple solution.
Don't get me wrong. I have many very dear American friends, both here and in the USA. But I have never, ever, made the mistake of believing that common language (and that's debatable!) equates to common culture or common cause or even common values. Yes, there are similarities, but that is all.
If this board is anything to go by, the anti-americanism is completely out of control in Britain. When did we turn into a nation of blatant racists?
This needs to be confronted head-on; someone in the Tory party needs to draw attention to this - if someone criticizes the Asian community, then they are rightly reprimanded. But it appears to be fashionable to bash Americans. This is unforgivable and unacceptable. Racism is racism - no exceptions!
This has been bubbling under the surface too long; it needs to be brought into the light. How can attitudes change if we do not confront the problem?
I sympathise with your friend but isn't the challenge to fight and the spitting, a personification of the 'survival of the fittest' society to which Nulabour have brought us?
As far as America and Americans are concerned, I love the country and am constantly reminded of how crass we are by the inherent politeness of the people in everyday life.
Their main fault, in my opinion, is that they think Blair is wonderful!
Note to Chris Paul: FOAD.
Blackacre opines, if that is not too strong a word: "Good old verity - recognise a muslim? They don't wear little crescents you know." Thank you for this little lesson in anthropology!
Let me tell you my reasoning, and please follow the words on the screen carefully with your forefinger: Aggressive "Asian" women are usually of the Islamic persuasion. Rude, self-righteous, hostile, uppity firebrands are usually of the Islamic persuasion. They are proud to aggressively brand themselves Muslim by donning fright headgear, and I assumed she was all geared up. Iain's friend has now indicated that, although she suspected the slag was a Muslim, there were no identifying clothes.
Good old Blackacre - never been outside Britain except on economy holiday flights.
Gallimaufry - Good point!
Anonymous 5:17 - "Americans are constantly landing uninvited in other people's countries" ...
I would add, Muslims are constantly landing uninvited other other people's countries ...
Anonymous 2:53 - Sweetie, sweetie, sweetie - Islam is a volunarily entered belief system. It is not a genetic code. People who find aggressive Islam tiresome thus cannot be racists. Don't be so ignorant. It's really irritating.
The curdled jealousy of America-hating Brits is appalling. We are not top nation any more. Americans don't need your guidance and your considered opinions and your sneering belief in your own superiority. They don't need you at all.
And to WW, how many times have I heard a loud-mouthed Brit- usually upper middle class - opining on something at top volume oblivious to the fact that other people are talking quietly amongst themselves. How many loud-mouthed British men have I heard braying with laughter at the top of their lungs in quiet restaurants?
There were no tube bombings on 7/7.
It was all a hoax by Blair and the Labour party to make people support the invasion of a peaceful arab country.
Blair himself planted 'noisemaker' on the tubes and then MI5, the police, the emergancy services,the hospitals, TFL, the rail unions, MI6, all conspired together to blame poor innocent muslim brothers for a crime that never happened.
Provocative in any way anyone?
Talking about 9/11 like that idiot did, is like saying..
that Madeleine Mcann girl. She deserved it for having rich parents.
Its ridiculous to tak out your frustrations about a country on one unconnected person, but if I was abroad and someone abused me because I was English I could definitely see where they were coming from.
Its a shame that all Americans get tarred with the same brush and have to apologise for their leaders wherever they go (if the lady voted for Bush then I have no sympathy), especially as bothering to get a passport implies you're less likely to be on the side of the nutjobs
I'm ashamed and deeply disappointed by the behaviour described. There's a big gap between 'free speech' and being provocative. This was clearly a case of the latter. I absolutely hate this aspect of the left - where they cry racism or sexism or any other kind of 'ism' until it comes to their own behaviour - which is crude and biased and as far as I'm concerned just as bad (or equivalent) to racism. No-one thinks it's alright to talk in a loud voice in front of a woman wearing a hijab about Muslims being suicide bombers. Why is this OK? It isn't.
@ Anonymous 6:57 PM
"the anti-americanism is completely out of control in Britain."
Really? So, just who is supposed to 'control' 'anti-americanism', then?
People are expressing their views - as is their right. Or are you advocating some sort of government agency having the powers to determine what people think and say? Come to think of it, isn't that pretty much the case right now?
There's far too much of this 'control' bollox being bandied about - notably by those who fancy they have a right to 'control' others.
And, as a matter of interest, why has this got anything at all to do with the Conservative Party in particular?
Sorry but I don't believe a word of it.
The whole carriage was slagging her off? THE WHOLE CARRIAGE??? Isn't it far more likely for a British train that the rest of the carriage was shrinking into their seats and pretending that nothing was happening?
Don't believe that she got spat in the face either. And, if she did, the obvious response is to belt the chavvy slapper good and hard where it hurts.
The whole piece smacks of a vivid imagination. I bet the author got into an argument about something, came off worse and has been compensating for since by telling everyone this exaggerated story in a search for sympathy.
Reminds me of the stuff you sometimes read where someone claims to have been refused service in a Scottish pub because they're English or how they walked into a Welsh pub and everyone ignored them and started speaking Welsh.
Pile of balls, to my mind. Firstly, the average Brit, even if they did hate a person, would be far too crippled by good manners, social insecurity and a horror of causing a scene to be openly rude to someone's face. Secondly, even if it really did happen, I'd be willing to bet that the victim waltzed into the pub, braying in an arrogant Home Counties accent for a round of G&Ts and spent several hours getting up the noses of the locals with a complete lack of self-awareness.
Pete - I agree with every word. Americans are the politest people in the West. Their courtesy is as formal as that of the Japanese.
Iain's friend got coarsely assaulted on the tube, and you all blame her.
The Ozzies don't act like this. Only Britain, a culture dying in pain.
Obama will be the next President and the mood WILL change.
People with views like Verity are part of the problem. Blinkered.
George Bush and the Republican Party have destroyed the reputation of the USA - they have destroyed all the good will.
Come November they are toast.
My mother had a similar experience on a train in France in the 1950s- the issue I think being Britain's supposed desertion of France in 1940. I am afraid that some people's emotions boil over when it comes to issues of this nature. It is unpleasant but it does happen.
The fact is that if the US hadnt invaded Iraq they would not have lost people's sympathy to anything like the extent they have with respect to 9/11. I suspect that both the "Liberal" and the Asian would always have been a lost cause but without Iraq the carriage would not have stood by and watched- thereby making their behaviour acceptable.
I rely on tube for my travel in London. In my experience it is a risk and I cross myself before boarding every time. I am Indian-looking and was often mistaken as a muslim and invited for a fight in the name of Koran! The other day, in the high street of my borough a muslim-looking woman with two kids in the pram was blocking my way and I requested her to give way as I was hurrying to keep an appointment. She surprised me with a well-aimed kick at my leg and while I was hurrying away after ignoring it I felt some one belting me on the head and there behind me was the woman in pram and the two kids! All this happened in the crowded street and many watching. I had a witness and could have brought an assault charge. But the thought of her kids restrained me.
All I can say is that we have become an intolerant bunch. Londoners are diverse and that should be our strength. My sympathies to the lady. I can understand how she feels.
to (apparently) the woman involved who has now replied. You seem to be very angry. Maybe fair enough. I wonder how the other people who had to overhear you felt? London is an amazing place - you dont have a right to make "racist" comments about other people on the tube. Its not about you being an American, these people have exactly the same right to be here as you. It took me along time to realise this. And then go out and discover the real London. Use your anger and move on mate.
"And for the smart aleck who thinks they know about something about the First Amendment - freedom of speech does not mean shouting fire in a crowded cinema or saying hurtful or insulting things to others. It is merely common courtesy, something which you and the spitting slag know nothing about."
To the woman who thinks that because she once overheard an Oliver Wendell Holmes misquotation she knows something about freedom of speech, this is nothing to do with shouting 'fire' in a crowded cinema, it is about someone exercising their right to express an opnion that you didn't like. And the First Amendment, which is not law here, doesn't come into it either.
It was disgusting that someone spat at you. No matter what someone said to me on the tube, I would never stoop so low. But should someone try to tell me what views I can and cannot express, I am likely to respond with the kind of language tha Iain doesn't allow. Whatever their political persuasion or nationality.
David Lindsay, you're spouting the usual crap, no one, repeat no one was pleased that 9/11 took place except the nastiest kind of lefty and of course the arab "street".
As for another poster's America will be cool again once Obama is President!
Yeah, right. How old are you ?
Anti-americanism long predates GWB.
Oh dear. To be frank I hadn't realised that anti-americanism was so widespread in the UK, but from your correspondent's experience and those of others that are related on here it would seem so.
Just a year or so ago I dismissed tales of the French spitting on Americans in the streets and the Dutch putting 'No Americans' signs in their shop windows as just isolated puffery. But it seems as though our cousins have engendered a deep and lasting visceral hatred across Europe - and in the UK, too, which I thought immune from such continental nonsense. This is indeed a matter of some concern.
Well, such things happen. The South African natives are burning their Zim liberation brothers as I type. No American has been 'necklaced' on the streets of Bayswater so far, and I'm sure the abuse here will be confined to the verbal sort with a soupcon of saliva.
But I for one am happy to offer any abused American my protection and my spare room until they recover.
I've never heard of an entire carriage turning against someone. I guess people must really hate Americans these days.
Verity,
"why use a politically correct term to describe your assailant?"
'Asian' isn't a politically correct term. Further, it is frequently impossible to detect someone's religion from appearance, or their motivation...
Your theory of the incident is confected entirely from your own prejudice, which is at least as unpleasant as the sort of reaction to Americans described in Iain's friend's account.
" I asked her to take her offensive views out of my earshot. "
Much as I sympathise with her, in this world as soon as you fall for the trap which has been baited for you, much of the other consequences are the inevitable dominoes toppling.
As that old philosopher Sting sang about a transatlantic scenario, 'It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile'.
The fact that describes someone as a 'dumb liberal' does also make me think that we are only getting one side of the story here, and that she may be one of these 'inyerface' New York show-ponies who thinks the world revolves around them and then cannot understand why everyone does not share their view of the world.
Re: Wrinkled Weasel
'Your friend should learn to shut up and remember she is polluting the environment by being overheard at all. It's just not done in this country and she should understand that'.
Have you ever been on public transport in this country? EVERYONE is talking loudly on their mobiles - constantly!!! What you really mean is that if their accent reveals them to be from a place you despise (ie the USA) THEN they should shut up.
Re: Bill Quango MP:
In a shop the other day An American lady was talking to the cashier when the person behind them said very loudly, something like, " we don't like Americans here, you should piss off ."
All they had really said was, "Yanks, go home".
How original.
Well put Bill...
What if the person behind had said "we don't like blacks here". Sums up the ignorant prejudice of these people.
Iain, Sorry your friend was treated so badly. It's noticeable how many people (particularly in London)like to trot out the phrase 'We should celebrate our diversity'. Except if you're an American, in which case, why don't you go back where you came from. Crass, impolite and just plain rude. Typical of modern Britain, though. We've become increasingly devoid of manners, especially when in public places, and very arrogant with it.
Isn't that the very stereotype that we label many Americans with -
'Rude, arrogant, crass, with no manners'.
I expect there will be many who will do the usual and blame the USA for this change aswell - 'Exporting their culture' etc.
The thuggish, aggressive, unpleasant behaviour of many English people is our creation, not anyone else's. Unfortunatley, I see no signs of the tide turning in the other direction. Your friend's experience is a perfect example of the nastiness of a section of modern Britain.
Some people just have no class - in the American sense of the word.
the woman in the tube - is this really you, the person to whom this incident happened, posting on this blog ??
If so I am very sorry for the incident, but I would have more sympathy if you hadn't posted..
"No one, and I mean no one is going to get away with saying that crap in front of me and not get challenged. "
You sound like an obnoxious ball breaking American who simply does not understand that in this country people can say things you disagree with and find offensive. By hyping up the argument [the tone of your posting shows that you are a very aggressive person] has escalated the situation through your own stupidity, I am afraid.
Of course, that in no way excuses the awful behaviour of spitting, but your attitude reminds of some people who won't get proper anti virus software or a firewall for their computer, and then bitch away when their PC catches a cold.
Honey, when you are out and about, just switch that firewall on, and realise that some bad people are out there who are best ignored, and their 'viruses' will stay outside your earshot, and your karma and face will stay intact.
Or maybe next week's story will be how you got beaten up as you tried to tell a carriage full of arabs what the real history of the middle east was, from an american outlook.
I think you have used up your sympathy reserve with this comment.
"No, it was the idiot liberal who had the loud voice which is why I heard her disgusting comment."
When will you yanks realise that the word 'liberal' is not some perojative insult in this country, and displays a breath-taking level of ignorance on your part.
Okay, I don't think the US was responsible for 9/11, and that it was all pre-arranged.
But I suspect you would be just as 'outraged' by the comments by Rev Wright about AIDS. Fair enough, he doesn't have evidence to support it and he shouldn't make allegations.
But it is a fact that US foreign policy allowed covert operations in Latin America which ALLOWED DRUGS TO BE EXPORTED TO MAINLAND USA with the tacit approval of the CIA. So when it comes to US Foreign Policy I have some sympathy with those who think 'Anything's Possible'.
Rather than getting ratty and just shouting people down, you need to come up with cogent arguments about why the Yanks are right and those opposing them are wrong, rather than just hoping to win arguments by a 'who shouts the loudest' type approach.
All that does is re-inforce bias and prejudice that America wants to impose its hegemony on the world through 'brute force and ignorance' - though as your unfortunate day out has shown, that is certainly not something the Americans have any sort of monopoly over...
The word "racist" has become a swear word on this blog; a catch all to apply to people who dare to attribute different cultural values to the inhabitants of other countries. I suppose "woman on the tube" feels I am somehow being unfair to Americans and yet I have merely cited everyday experience, and I am sure I am not alone.
We tend to keep our opinions to ourselves in public places, as a culture, a British Culture. You would be wise to do as we do.
As for this egregious "Asian" woman, she too should understand that her actions were unacceptable. You should have prosecuted her and watched her play the race card when it suited her.
So "woman on the tube", you have failed to convince me that you are anything other than another loud American bigot who feels everyone should learn the benefit of your opinions and whose defense consists of casting aspersions (rendered utterly meaningless by over use and universal use)with such a farrago of twisted logic and such a crass lack of understanding of British Culture that I doubt you will ever be happy in this country.
If she wants to experience real abuse and hatred she should try being a Scot living in the South East of England.
Iain, are all Septics whingers, or is just the ones you know?
Boohoo, you hate Bush. I hate Mugabe, does that give me a free pass to slag off everyone from Zimbabwe? I wouldn't dream of being so racist and rude to a fellow human being.
Yet "liberals" feel absolutely free to make nationalistic remarks about Americans that they'd never dream of making about Nigerians, Pakistanis etc.
Sorry, there is no American exception to the Race Relations Act 1976 (which includes nationalistic comments).
http://thisisstokenewington.wordpress.com/2007/09/10/i-remember/
How awful, and after they saved our asses in two world wars too.
Surely you mean arses?
There is a lot of anti American feeling about - and some justified.
But this is not. An individual should not be judged for the actions of their Government. How did this stupid 'Asian' not know that the women in question was actually someone who agreed with her analysis? She simply assumed - because she works on the mindset that all Americans are evil!
Claptrap in my opinion. Some are, some are not! Good and bad in all! Don't judge a book by the cover and all that!
However, a word to Americans living in the UK who are subject to this kind of abuse. A friend told me that, after his accent was overheard on a bus in London, he got a mouthful of abuse from a complete stranger - how evil America was and all Americans should be ashamed of themselves...yada yada yada. My friend - a rather hard to intimidate rugby player listened, nodded politely and said - very calmly - "an interesting observation - but I'm Canadian, so why are you telling me this?"
That shut the idiot up - and made other people on the bus laugh!
I suggest that, as a get out clause in an emergency, this is a good line for Americans to use.
As for your friend - my sympathy to her - a horrible expereince. But why didn't your friend simply punch the 'Asian' girl who spat at her. If the police then wanted to get shirty, she could claim that she was defending herself because she had just been assaulted (spitting is assault), and feared she was about to get punched herself (a reasonable assumption to make)! I am afraid the 'Asian' lost all her rights when she spat. I've never hit a women, but I would have been tempted to do so in this case!
Also, slapping the gobber would send a message to the rest of the carriage ...."you want some too?"!
And, when she says 'Asian' what does she mean - Indian? Thai? Muslim?
Hey - the women in the tube: On behalf of the rest of normal people (of all classes, races and political persuasion) of this great country, can I offer you my apologies.
This is not how we British like to be seen.
Sometimes I am ashamed of what is becoming of my country and my fellow Brits.
And next time, slap the bitch! Maybe then she won;t go around thinking she can treat other human beings in such a disgusting way and get away with it.
Oh, and the reason wny you can;t say about other races what she said about Americans is because it is acceptable in current political dialogue to do so, where as saying things similarly objectionable about other races is not acceptable. These are the rules I am afraid!
If you ever find out who makes these rules, please tell me, as I would like to discuss the rules with them!
Zeddy writes, inexplicably: "Pile of balls, to my mind. Firstly, the average Brit, even if they did hate a person, would be far too crippled by good manners, social insecurity and a horror of causing a scene to be openly rude to someone's face.
Did you understand, Zeddy, that the "Asian" who spat in the woman on the tube's face was not "the average Brit"?
Re Obama, shrieking fan Canvas pops up with: "People with views like Verity are part of the problem." What problem is that, sweets? I don't have a vote in the United states. But do talk to my American friends on the phone and we all have a good laugh reporting snippets we've seen about St Barack and Mrs Ticked-Off in the media that day. He keeps us entertained for whole ... minutes.
Norman writes: "Londoners are diverse and that should be our strength." No, Norman. You've been conned. That is your weakness.
Anon 9:04 - Admittedly it is difficult to follow threads and comments when Iain puts them up at such wide intervals, but to be clear, you write: "'Asian' isn't a politically correct term. Further, it is frequently impossible to detect someone's religion from appearance, or their motivation..."
Wrong. It is a non-negotiable politically correct word in Britain. It has been manufactured as a portmanteau description for those don't use the M word for fear of the British Thought SS. The Lady on The Tube did not describe her assailant as Muslim because the spitter wasn't rigged up as a Muslim. Some are. And some aren't.
"Your theory of the incident is confected entirely from your own prejudice,"
What prejudice would that be? A "prejudice" through personal knowledge that, in the main, Indians, Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Koreans, Thais, Indonesians", etc., do not spit in people's faces? Personal knowledge is now a prejudice? I must try harder to keep up!
Anon 4.56: Buy your son a couple of Steve Earle LPs and let him make his own mind up!
Will 4.46: You can dislike America's hegemony (and I do), but express that dislike in ways which don't involve assaulting people, and spitting at them. Freedom of speech allows the right to be 'generally offensive' in my view, but not offensive to an individual. It certainly does not extend to assaulting someone.
Canvas: It isn't just GW Bush - although he has made it ten times worse. It is because America is perceived as a nation which has taken upon itself the mantle of the arbiter of 'global moral values' - i.e. its own values. Many people resent having American values imposed upon them either by force, economic power or cultural imperialism. The rot started after WW2 - Korea, Vietnam....
America could be one of the most incredible and positive influences for peace and security, but sadly, it so often comes across (as a generalism) as a country of gun-crazed red-necks intent on telling the rest of world how to live their lives, then bombing them into American style culture.
I like America and I like Americans, but I dislike the national culture of arrogance which is exudes!
Chris Paul: Yawn YAWN!!!
Winkled Weasel: Your observation is generally sound I think. Some Americans do tend to be loud and brash and annoying, usually when they are not used to travelling lots, or when they are in large groups and insensitive to others around them.
But I disagree with your last paragraph, which is unfair to the informant.
Anon 5.13: Since when did the 1st amendment allow someone to spit at another?
Adrian Yelland writes- in a segment refreshingly free of trademark exclamation points -"Canvas: It isn't just GW Bush - although he has made it ten times worse. It is because America is perceived as a nation which has taken upon itself the mantle of the arbiter of 'global moral values' - i.e. its own values."
As we, the British did for 300 years.
The world improved thereby (we outlawed slavery, for example and our Royal Navy policed this vile trade off the Atlantic Ocean trade routes) and the world has progressed under American hegemony. For example, Japan has been forced to become a democracy.
It might have been instructive for you to have read the previous 85 comments before you raced in to gift us your big opinion.
"Some Americans do tend to be loud and brash and annoying, usually when they are not used to travelling lots ...".
Yelland, your comment chills the blood.
It's over! Do you understand? We don't have an empire any more!!!! Most Brits don't travel "lots".
Worse! The Americans don't want an empire! They didn't even want to take our empire away from us! How infuriating! Those bovine non-"lots" travellers are the first non-imperial super-power in the history of the world! Doesn't that just make you sick?
Americans travel "lots" in their own vast country. They also "travel lots" around France, where they speak bloody better French than you do, I guarantee.
We did well with our Empire. And we passed on a common language and a fair legal system to those who could integrate it. E.g. the Indians, who have taken the ball and run with it. And, within 20 years, will be outrunning us. They already apply for more technological patents than any other country after the United States and Germany.
The Commonwealth is pretend.
Bring on the Anglosphere!
I hate all this harking back to "when we ...."
Those days are over. Three hundred years was a good run for our money.
I suspect that part of the problem is that your friend doesn't understand the important difference between hatred of a race of people and a disagreement with a policy/policies.
To suggest that Americans are rude, loud-mouthed and ignorant would suggest hatrad of Americans as a race. To suggest that the American government staged 9/11 is a comment about the American government, not an attack on all Americans. Therefore, to suggest that someone is being offensive, and should remove themselves from your presence, for merely expressing a view about the American government is itself extremely rude.
Believing that Americans are fed on crap from Fox News perhaps this person on the tube considered that your friend needed to be educated about views that are widely held in the Muslim world.
If your friend had instead said "I didn't vote for George Bush and I opposed the illegal invasion of Iraq" that would have got a very different reception on the tube. This is because most people are not anti-American, they are anti-the American government of George Bush and those Americans that continue to support Bush and his policies. I strongly oppose the policies of Pol Pot, but that does not make me anti-Cambodian.
Having said that, spitting in someone face is an assault and your friend should have pressed the matter.
Of course there is anti-American feeling, and so there should be. Voting for a goofball as the leader of the free world and then letting him invade two countries. I'm ashamed that we joined in.
It's some years since I spent any time on the tube but that kind of confrontation and escalation would then have been highly unlikely unless woman #2 was out to provoke such a conflict and chose her mark well judging from the reaction of your friend ( woman #1 ) who would have done better to have ignored such foolishness.
For the "whole carriage" to turn on your friend her reaction must indeed have been loud and crass.
Spitting woman #3 appears to have been a random bystander giving vent to her unpleasant nature.
This analysis has plausibility
Anonymous May 19, 2008 6:33 PM
"So, from the perspective of "the Asian" maybe there were a couple of people having an innocent stupid chat about 911 conspiracies, and then some loud American woman marches over and tells them to shut up. You can see why that would cause hostility."
Having run away from London as it sank into the mire I can only suggest that those few sensible people remaining do likewise and leave the place to fester.
In these provincial parts, politeness and tolerance still linger.
This just supports what I have always thought.
The idea the UK is a Pro American country is a myth. Oh yeah, it has strong support in the Tory party and Labour in their 'New' Brand have decied to be just as pro-american, but most people dont want to blindly follow America like so many Pro-Americans in Britain want.
I also think pure hate of America is increasing too.
Verity said re Asian ....
"It is a non-negotiable politically correct word in Britain. It has been manufactured as a portmanteau description for those don't use the M word for fear of the British Thought SS. The Lady on The Tube did not describe her assailant as Muslim because the spitter wasn't rigged up as a Muslim. Some are. And some aren't."
Verity, you have been out of this country too long and are hopelessly out of touch with present-day Britain.
The term Asian is not a PC term but is used by almost everyone to describe Hindus, Sikhs, etc. as well as Muslims of Pakistani extraction, in situations where it is not necessary to be more specific.
In the 1930's the German Socialist Nazi's incited the German people to hate Jews (and love Arians).
In the 2000's the British Socialists are inciting the British people to hate Americans (and love Muslims).
Where is the difference? Everyone of you on here who makes excuses for the 'Asian's' behavior has surcummbed to this racism. There was NO excuse for it, and I suggest you look very carefully at your own values and beliefs. You are on a very dangerous path.
Britain, after ten years of Blair has become a lunatic asylum, from which any sane person should depart as soon as funds or arrangements permit..
apart from iain Dale, of course, who is needed to send blog reports to the millions of Brits like me who have already escaped.
As for Americans, why go there? There are 199 other countries in the world where people still have some idea how to behave.
Verity 3.34am - I agree with you. That is something I thought I would never type.
"Inner London is a cesspool of maleducated middle-class liberal turds who don't know they're born or understand the spectacular benefits they receive from the existence and excellence of the United States."
Agreed. Though they aren't all middle class...
"It does sound a little unlikely, could you imagine a carriage full of people reacting in such a manner?"
Given that Tube carriages of people have been known (recently too) to stand by while women are attacked by thugs, yes...
"As I took the cog railway down the mountain one morning at 7 a.m, when most people are half awake, one lone American was talking loudly into her phone. It's arrogance, pure arrogance."
Who do they think they are, using their telephones at any hour of the day they please? Shocking..!
You might need to take a reality check, there, weasel...
Some of the comments on this thread make me feel sick to the stomach at what this country has become.
While I have been heartened by the supportive comments I am not surprised by the anti-American vitriol. When I first came to live here over 25 years ago I was stunned when my (ex) husband's friends spent the entire evening making disparaging remarks about Americans and they thought I WAS RUDE to take them up on it. Countless other incidents come to mind and this was way before Iraq-such as the time a middle aged woman who screeched at me to go back to America when I asked her to stop her dog from jumping on my son (who was distressed and crying) in his push chair.
All the snivelling apologists are missing the point. Public transport is not and has never been the place for playing loud rap music, talking in gynacological detail about your latest date, loudly voicing political opinions etc. I am sick and tired of school kids on the bus telling me it is their 'yuman rite' to play Fifty Cent out loud at 7:45am or ignorant idiots citing free speech as the reason to loudly spout their opinions no matter how upsetting or offensive they may be. Society is in a state of anomie - anything goes and there is not the moral restriction to temper it.
As to those doubt my experience and say the polite British people would just look away you do realise that we here in Britain are thought of as the yob capital of the world. And yobbery is not restricted to the underclass. Some of the worst offenders are middle class Guardianistas who think it is their right to slag off Americans, the working classes, men, meat eaters, smokers et al, loudly where ever and whenever they like.
To the people who think it is a-ok to slag off America in front of Americans and BLAME them for their Government think on this:
On a crowded train or bus would you:
Publicly and loudly denounce Muslims as being suicide bombers?
Accuse the Irish of being IRA sympathisers in fron
Denounce the French as party to the Vichy government?
Denounce Belgians as collaborators?
Refer to Germans as Nazis?
Italians as fascists?
West Indians as lazy weed smokers?
Polish as anti-Semitic?
Need I say more?
"The term Asian is not a PC term but is used by almost everyone to describe Hindus, Sikhs, etc. as well as Muslims of Pakistani extraction, in situations where it is not necessary to be more specific."
Trouble is, it's becoming more and more neccesary to be specific...
anonymous (10:11): "If she wants to experience real abuse and hatred she should try being a Scot living in the South East of England."
Aww, don't worry, Gordon. You'll be home again in Kirkaldy very soon...
Shameful business and I am truly sorry.
Some years ago I had to either keep my mouth shut or pretend I was from elsewhere in Europe during a guided tour of Boston. The 'facts' portrayed were at variance with those you could glean from the museum displays but fed the prejudices of the rest of the party. I didn't feel comfortable as one of the 'goddam British' and that was an official tour.
It pays to know your audience.
It's very odd, all this anti-americanism.
I mean, this is a country that has produced some of the greatest defenders of human freedom and free speech ever, the country to which Thomas Paine chose to emigrate, the nation of Lincoln, Jefferson, more recently H. L. Mencken, and H. S. Thompson more recently still; you just know that the vast majority of americans must be decent, intelligent, sensitive and open people...
but I only ever seem to meet boorish cro-magnon isolationist republicans who think the word 'liberal' is an insult, Darwin is in hell, and try and shut people up who disagree with them.
As I said, odd.
"...you just know that the vast majority of americans must be decent, intelligent, sensitive and open people...
but I only ever seem to meet boorish cro-magnon isolationist republicans who think the word 'liberal' is an insult, Darwin is in hell, and try and shut people up who disagree with them."
Ah, I see. Your definition of a 'decent, intelligent, sensitive and open' American is one who agrees with your own viewpoint. All the others who have different viewpoints are the 'wrong sort of American'.
I wonder what Thomas Paine, Abraham Lincoln, Thomas Jefferson, H. L. Mencken, and H. S. Thompson would have thought of such naked partisanship..?
I'm sorry woman on the tube. But i had sympathy for your experience until you made those daft analogies.
They were criticising the American Government. They made no mention of your race. For you to equate racist analogies of carribeans to abusing the US government shows how stupid you are.
I do not support the assault that was made on your person. I also do not support your decision to tell the passenger to get her views out of your ears.
'The woman in the tube' said:
"To the people who think it is a-ok to slag off America in front of Americans and BLAME them for their Government think on this"
Dear Woman in the tube - You don't mention how you voted in the last US general election? Did you vote for George Bush? If you did vote for Bush then I have little sympathy for your situation...
Just wondering.
Yes, this abuse was thoroughly obnoxious and unacceptable. A little more unpleasant than passing through US passport control at Washington Dulles and feeling like some combination of unwanted immigrant and terrorist suspect, despite being on UK/US military business (although they were courteous when they saw my travel order!).
Sadly, this vulgarity is standard in "respekt" Britain and she should consider herself lucky she wasn't knifed or shot (by the police in the latter case?!?)
Verity says: " "People with views like Verity are part of the problem." "What problem is that, sweets? " "
Errrmmm, 'Sweets'? How strange. What a cheap phrase to use.
The problem with you Verity is your fear mongering and your war mongering ways. You have an unhealthy fear of anything 'different'.
You have the same flaws as George Bush, his policies and also the Republican Party.
You are scary but predictable.
It's time for change - it's time for Obama.
roll on November...
What is it about the Tory party that they believe we need to be glove puppets to the American imperialists?
Being accosted by gits and oafs on the Tube is not acceptable for anyone, but I assume the Tories and their media supporters will be happy for the UK to continue receiving orders from across the pond.
I am very right wing in my political beliefs but doing what these ghastly americans tell us is simply wrong
11:31 - Odd,that. And, despite having lived in the US for a number of years, I never encountered any of the negative characteristics you mention.
But then, despite the feverish imaginings of so many Brits who have never been across the Atlantic, "Christian fundamentalists" are also very thin on the ground. There was one in an office I worked in, but even she was very mild and unaggressive. And that was the sum total of my experience with the primitive, drooling, snarling fundamentalist primitives that so populate over-active British imaginations.
Except for occasional freeway rage - and even that isn't that prevalent in gun-owning states as you never know who's packing - Americans are brought up to be mannerly. Most are kindly and generous - an inheritance from the pioneer days when everyone shared and supported each other.
I am baffled about where you people find fuel for your crazy notions.
I believe that the people that dont want to know what happened during 9/11 are the real anti americans. People that try to silence them for questioning the corruption inside the government, are the real anti patriots. But, you know ill probably get a backlash, just for speaking my mind. Im sure the girl that snapped at the one talking about 9/11 was the real anti american, because she didnt care about what America's government did.
This is appauling, when stats show the Americans are thoe most generous at giving aid privately.
The US government is also generous in Burma and elsewhere.
Yet the only aid muslim countries seem to give is to fund madrassas and terrorism.
http://nominister.blogspot.com/2008/05/lets-hear-it-for-america.html
"Verity says: " "People with views like Verity are part of the problem." "What problem is that, sweets? " "
Errrmmm, 'Sweets'? How strange. What a cheap phrase to use."
someone called her 'my dear' once. You should have seen the feathers fly. ("I'm not your dear, or anyone else's...")
"It's time for change - it's time for Obama. Roll on November..."
And what, apart from 'change', does Obama stand for, exactly..?
Juliam says: "And what, apart from 'change', does Obama stand for, exactly..?"
Juliam, If you are genuinely interested in what Obama stands for - it is all there on his website for you to read. Unless, of course, you're just being flippant?
http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/ObamaBlueprintForChange.pdf
Ah, I see. Your definition of a 'decent, intelligent, sensitive and open' American is one who agrees with your own viewpoint. All the others who have different viewpoints are the 'wrong sort of American'.
No, what anonymous 11:34 said was:
"but I only ever seem to meet boorish cro-magnon isolationist republicans who ... try and shut people up who disagree with them.
I don't object that Woman On The Tube disagreed with the other person on the tube, but I do object to the fact that, rather than putting her own view, she tried to shut that person up.
I don't endorse the views of the other person about 9/11 conspiracies, but the views being expressed are shared by many people in the world, particularly in the Middle East. If Woman On The Tube hasn't been exposed to these views before perhaps she should broaden her world view by watching less Fox and more CNN.
@juliam
its funny that you mentioned
Thomas Paine, Abraham Lincoln, Thomas Jefferson, H. L. Mencken, and H. S. Thompson because all but thomas jefferson are diests. Im guessing you assumed they were christian, for convienence's sake, some people do that, to make themselves look good.
@verity
I used to live in Texas, you want to see vicious barbaric fundamentalist christians, try the Bible belt, i.e. Florida, Alabama, and Texas. Theres a youtube video about brits driving into alabama with thier trucks touched up with liberal slogans like vote for hillary and Im gay, they were hounded to get out of 'bama. Ill send you the url if i can find it agian.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rq-kK7GEb7M
Canvas writes: "Errrmmm, 'Sweets'? How strange. What a cheap phrase to use."
Water seeks its own level. Sweets.
"You have the same flaws as George Bush, his policies and also the Republican Party."
Thank you. I shall wear that badge with pride.
1:33 - It worked, didn't it? You remembered it.
Juliam asks a profound question - what does Obama stand for, actually? - but answer will there come none. On a website devoted to raising money for this empty, conceited individual, it didn't ask for donations just for "Change you can believe in", but "transformative" change! Whoah!
I don't think anyone has ever run for the White House on such an alarmingly paper-thin resumé.
Martin - If you read posts other than your own, you would have seen that the Woman on The Tube has lived in Britain for years. I'm sure she has been exposed to the toxicity of enraged, free-floating anti-Americanism many times before.
"If you are genuinely interested in what Obama stands for - it is all there on his website for you to read. Unless, of course, you're just being flippant?"
Well, of course, canvas - I was being flippant! It appears that Obama stands for being poor, cold and hungry in the fight against 'global warming'...
Oh, and for having 57 states too, I seem to recall.
"...the views being expressed are shared by many people in the world, particularly in the Middle East."
Perhaps we'd all be better off if more people stood up and pointed out these views for the utter barking insanity that they are, instead of politely simpering 'Well, that's your view and you are entitled to it...'
"If Woman On The Tube hasn't been exposed to these views before perhaps she should broaden her world view by watching less Fox and more CNN."
Oh, the 'dumb American' jibe. Gosh, hadn't heard that one before...
What an original thinker you are, martin!
MuttMutt - As noted, I used to live in Tesas and didn't encounter these people. Perhaps you draw the wrong crowd. Your British friends driving around a foreign country with hostile bumper stickers sound crude and infantile.
Juliam - Yes, indeed, Barack Hussein Obama did claim to have visited 57 states with "one more to go", but this contrasts strangely with an earlier comment from him that he intended to visit "All 48 states and Hawaii and Alaska." Perhaps geography isn't his strong point - although didn't he go to school in Hawaii? Didn't he realise he was in the United States?
OTOH, when Hawaii and Alaska were admitted to statehood decades ago, perhaps this was "change Obama couldn't believe in".
Theres a youtube video about brits driving into alabama with thier trucks touched up with liberal slogans like vote for hillary and Im gay, they were hounded to get out of 'bama.
It was the Top Gear boys. The slogans were not offensive or 'hostile', one simply said "Vote Hillary" the other two were something about 'man love' and not liking Country and Western. The reactions were a stoning and actual death threats.
Now, in fairness, if you drove round bits of the Gorbals with a 'vote cameron' sticker you'd probably get the same reaction. In fact, drive round the wrong part of Glesca and make your Rangers / Celtic choice incorrectly and you're probably in a lot of trouble.
just goes to show, that stupid bigoted s***s are stupid bigoted s***s wherever you are. Including America.
Another term of McCain/Bush equals four more years of hell for 'the woman in the tube'. It also means four more years of hell for the rest of the world.
it will NEVER happen - Bush and McCAIN represent the past. The days of fear mongering and war mongering are over. Bush/McCain can take their Saudi lobbyists and start walking.
Barack Obama is going to win the next general election. The writing is on the wall. I can't wait for November.
By the way, when is Gordon Brown going to make way for David Milliband? 2008 or 2009?
Oh, good grief, muttmutt, that 'YouTube' video about the 'brits driving into alabama with thier trucks touched up' is a 'Top Gear' staged stunt from the BBC2 programme.
It's not real...!
Good lord, perhaps it's not just the conspiraloons who are enclined to believe anything they see on the gogglebox or internet.
Y'know, about 19 years ago, while travelling around the US by Amtrak and Greyhound, I received lots of kind words wherever I went.
However, there were a few occasions where I had to endure the "fucking limey, coming over here - we're well rid of you imperial scum"
So I'd usually smile sweetly and heartily agree with the sentiments, knowing all the while that the speaker was an ignorant turd.
Your mate should learn the same response... it makes life a lot easier and there's worse stuff to get het up about.
I was a republican at one time but now I am a floating voter. This anti Americanism is nothing new to me as I am retired military. What makes me angry is that the people who show this trait are more than likely to show disrespect to their own country (The United Kingdom). Isn't it about time people of all persuasions show some respect. J.B.
This is why I no longer travel to the UK. They're going down the toilet and enjoying the ride.
just goes to show how ungrateful the world is, piss off to all of you. you'll be screaming for our help when the chinese gang up on you....not to mention the iranians
Dear old Auntie Verity asks if I "canvassed everyone in the carriage and determined that all the Americans therein despise Mr Bush? "
Well, George W. Bush’s approval rating has now sunk to a dismal 28 percent. Therefore, it is a fair to say that 3 out of 4 people on that carriage will probably think that George Bush is a complete loser and a complete arsehole. I know I certainly think he is...
If you really want George Bush to have a third term, then vote for John McCain (as if I ever would!).
Barack Obama will be the next President of the USA.
Obama to WIN in 2008!
Chunga1 - How dare you! We certainly will not be screaming for your help when the Iranians aggress against us, as long as they bring little party gift bags with them. And maybe some treats to eat.
Didn't you see how we behaved when they captured a ship belonging to the Royal Navy in the Straits of Hormuz? Total submissive puppy and glowing gratitude for the joke suits the Iranians had run up for our sailors. I felt a bit sorry for Fat Faye as she didn't get one, but they may not have had enough material left. And I felt a bit sorry for that boy whose favourite CD they stole and who burst into tears, but still, he did get a suit and a goody bag.
None of your Goddamned business how I voted, Canvas. You really are puerile aren't you? So I should I spit at every idiot who voted for Blair?
As it happens I have always voted Democrat but I don't share your views that all of the world's problems will be solved if Obama becomes president. Far from it and it is incredibly naive to think so.
No doubt you will say I'm a racist but I'll tell you something for nothing - you can judge a person by the company they keep - his judgement on his preacher friend is deeply flawed. And it is going to bite him in the ass.
Dear old shrieky maiden auntie Canvas with a mad crush on Obama writes in response to my question about whether s/he canvassed everyone in the carriage to determine if they all hate Bush, replies, with more than a touch of hysteria:
Well, George W. Bush’s approval rating has now sunk to a dismal 28 percent. Therefore, it is a fair to say that 3 out of 4 people on that carriage will probably think that George Bush is a complete loser and a complete arsehole. Don't understand your hysterical extrapolation. Americans give Mr Bush a 28% approval. How do you translate that into British people on a London tube?" ]
I know I certainly think he is...
Yes, we know you have a feverish crush on Obama, love socialism and hate free enterprise, the free market and the Republicans. We know that. You have shrieked it in our ears at the top of your lungs for the past six months.
May I suggest you go and put your case over at the Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler? Your "thinking" is the perfect dog's dinner. Also, it's an American site so at least you would be mauled by your fellow voters.
"The woman in the tube's" last post on this blog explains very clearly why the general public reacted so negatively towards her...
She appears to be quite bitter and twisted - and although she claims to have voted Democrat it's pretty obvious she voted for George Bush but she is too ashamed to admit it? LoL
I think Iain's 'tube friend' probably spouted off this kind of ugly and hostile language on the tube carriage (loudly) and that's why she got punked.
Agree? Disagree?
You know - maybe being 'American' didn't have anything to do with it? Maybe 'the woman in the tube' is just plain rude and abnoxious?
Food for thought!
:)
Just for Canvas, here's a YouTube video of the Obamassiah's latest speech...
:D
How old are you Canvas? 14?
Have you considered professional help to try to figure out why you have such an obsession with Bush/Obama? It's really creepy.
st bob said...
"We live in a great country"
Not any more.
"...where people cannot make racist or sexist or homophobic accounts in public."
White English people cannot do those things, unless they are Guardianista scum slagging off Americans.
Foreign scum who should not be here can do as they please. Especially in the multi-culti cesspit of London.
Good news is, the time for getting rid of all these anti-British and anti-American low-lifes is coming. They can all sod off. No matter who they are, or where they came from, or how long they have been here. That especially includes English white leftoid turds.
canvas said...
"Barack Obama is going to win the next general election. The writing is on the wall. I can't wait for November."
In the obviously entirely unlikely event that Obi did lose, is there any chance your sorrow might lead to suicide?
Anon 12:00 writes, to the very excitable Canvas, "is there any chance your sorrow might lead to suicide?"
One can only hope. Or Canvas might be driven to go home to grieve and vacate the British Isles, which would also be an acceptable result.
"We think: Mr Obama is the most exciting candidate America has had in a generation. His charisma, charm and unifying message have won him the support of great swathes of first-time voters and independents."
Agreed.
Woman in the tube - creepy is an American Moaning Minnie who can't understand why people in the UK react badly to rudeness and hostility.
:)
Verity,
I would be delighted to buy Master (because he really is an adolescent) Canvas a one way first class ticket home! Shall we start a collection?
Woman in The Tube - I don't think his Mummy and Daddy would let him go. Although, I dunno, though ...
This is hardly limited to the UK. The US itself has it's own self-loathing breed and it is politically correct to be anti-American in America itself.
It's called a "Culture of Treason," and yes, it is widespread after decades of cultural Marxism indoctrination and reaches all the way up to the congress and even a Presidential election candidate.
I noticed Obama was spotted carrying a copy of "The Post-American World." How charming. And how telling that there hasn't been a massive outcry for him to immediately withdraw from the race.
If it gets any attention whatsoever it will be because a literal handfull of conservative pundits will scream about it for weeks.
Thanks for the warning. Here's one American that won't be visiting Britain anytime soon, if ever again. I'll spend my dollars elsewhere.
However, when you Brits come to America, expect to be met with the same friendly hospitality we've always shown you. We'll be glad to take your money.
I do have to wonder though - if America is such a bad place, and Americans are such horrible people, why do you Brits continue to come here in large numbers to visit, work and immigrate?
Had George Bush been a Democrat who instituted all the failed socialist policies that most of Europe is being crushed under, the extreme-left slanted media in Europe would love him and the sheep that demonize President Bush now would have nothing to bad say. His liberation of Iraq and Afghanistan would be all the rage.
Canvas--
While you beat the Obama drum in a foreign land, just remember, "Hope is not a plan of action."
To everyone else... I always found it interesting, the # of Brits I run into in California. Y'all are welcome, any time.
I spent 2 weeks in London about a decade ago (makes me a real expert, right).
I was not subjected to ANY anti-Americanism. In fact, just the opposite. Whenever I was out somewhere and spoke, strangers would just come up to me and start conversations. They were all polite and asked me questions about the USA. It was wierd I almost felt like a celebrity.
I had a wonderful visit. I don't know if Bush and the war have made things different or what.
Why do Britons criticize the US so harshly for the Iraq war when the UK was in on it too?
Anonymous 10:35 - Quite right. Your dollars wouldn't go far anyway. They probably wouldn't buy an avocado in EU fantasy land.
"if America is such a bad place, and Americans are such horrible people, why do you Brits continue to come here in large numbers to visit, work and immigrate?"
Because those particular Brits are free marketeers and not of the dead hand of communist/state/socialist control mindset and wanted to escape to a country that has checks and balances? Unlike Britain?
Hmmmm.
Speaking as a conservative Republican I dearly hope for the day when the USA tells Europe, along with the UK, to go f**k itself.
The fact is that the EU nations depend entirely on the USA to defend it. And I for one am sick of it.
I am proud to be American and I wear it proudly wherever I go. The world doesn't hate America, the left hates America and since the world sees America through the eyes of the left they only get the bad side. My country has done more good in its short 200+ year existence than most civilizations have done in thousands.
I don't think America needs to apologize for anything and it surely doesn't need to explain itself to former Imperial nations like the UK, France and Germany. You can call this arrogance or whatever else you like. I call it being proud of who I am and where I come from and if it's ok to feel this way about every other country on the planet it's sure as hell ok to feel this way about my America.
Don't like? Too bad. Deal with it.
Why are English people such assholes? I see them flooding our streets wearing their mis-matched clothes. Their fishbelly-white skin stands out and they wear tight shorts that were hip in the NBA circa 1977. They are loud, rude, and all they do is complain. Maybe they are bored and want a good soccer riot.
Fortunately, Americans are too polite to berate asshole English tourists.
Anonymous said...
"It's called a "Culture of Treason," "
Great name. The proper penalty for treason is death.
Anonymous said...
"I do have to wonder though - if America is such a bad place, and Americans are such horrible people, why do you Brits continue to come here in large numbers to visit, work and immigrate?"
Because most Brits, even these days, love America. It's the self-loathing chattering leftoid classes who do all the anti-American propaganda.
Anonymous said...
"I spent 2 weeks in London about a decade ago (makes me a real expert, right).
I was not subjected to ANY anti-Americanism."
Ten years ago London was still an English city. Since then we have had a government intent on the mass immigration into the UK of people who hate the West and especially America. Britain has a government that hates English people.
"Why do Britons criticize the US so harshly for the Iraq war when the UK was in on it too?"
Because they would then run straight into opposition from English people. An unending stream of propaganda from left-wing journalists has turned America into an easy target. But only up to a point. It only works so long as most Brits are, in effect, excluded from the debate.
Richard said...
"My country has done more good in its short 200+ year existence than most civilizations have done in thousands."
True.
Just for the record, the most insufferably boorish tourist I ever saw was an Italian, at a cremation in Bali. The stupid git showed up in a pink jumpsuit, and was pushing his camera in the faces of all the mourners.
I do not extrapolate from this that all Italians lack a sense of decorum when attending Indonesian funerals. This was a reprehensible individual, as are all people who seek to lump the people of the world into groups.
The fact is that the EU nations depend entirely on the USA to defend it.
They only do so because the United States Government insists on it. There are many beneficiaries of the US defense industry who spend far more on bribing politicians than the rank-and-file taxpayers do.
If American politicians ever start to care about the general welfare of the country and cut back the military budget to what it would actually cost to effectively defend the United States, not only would Europe take care of its own defense, we'd also see a worldwide economic boom of unprecedented proportions.
If you can't say "muslim", why not just say "rag head"? It pinpoints the subset of Muslims whose desire is to turn Britain into a wahabbi colony.
Anonymous 10:17 notes, re the sainted Obama: "And how telling that there hasn't been a massive outcry for him to immediately withdraw from the race."
Well, he's alread withdrawn from the white race. That's 50% of his genetic make-up gone.
10:08 - Europe will never allocate a defence budge to defend itself as it needs the money for the Neil and Gwenyth (or whatever her name is) Kinnock, the Peter Mandelsons, the Chris Pattens, all all the rest of the creepy traitors in Britain and their disgusting counterparts in France, Germany, Spain, etc. The unelected and unelectable nomenklatura can't afford to give up their expense allowances to buy ships, planes, tanks and all those things. America already has them, so why bother. "Waiter! I'll have the ortalans to start with, there's a good fellow."
Richard
Well said!
As a lot of the other bloggers said this anti-American attitude is rooted in the left's politics of envy. They hate and despise anybody who does well - I am thinking of the Crewe by-election where Labour's campaign consisted solely of accusing the Conservative candidate of being a 'toff'.
The chattering classes are virulently anti-semetic so America's alliance with Israel is another 'reason' for their hatred. This has seeped down to the less well off lefties which results in situations such as the one I encountered last week.
Ever since seeing the Beatles at Shea Stadium in 1965 I always wanted to live here. I later became enamoured of the culture - art, literature, music and its history. Through the years my love affair with this country has waned considerably - not only because of the anti-American abuse but because I find it so hard to fathom the self-loathing that the lefties have and which has spread to so many others. Pride in your country is sneered at, multi-culturalism has been elevated to the point where nobody even knows what it means to British and all sense of national identity has been lost. I never thought I'd say this but after almost 30 years here I am starting to think that one day I will return home because this doesn't feel like home anymore.
Woman in the tube : 'I am starting to think that one day I will return home because this doesn't feel like home anymore.'
Actually, a lot of English people are starting to feel the same way. Like their country has been hi-jacked by a left-wing mentality that despises and just won't accept that there is such a thing as a 'host culture' in England. The only culture acceptable or worthy of praise is multi-culture, so that we become a nation that belongs to the world, not to England and it's residents. Yet these same people love to 'celebrate' the traditional cultures of other countries around the world, but when they come home to England they deny that there is such a thing as a traditional culture in their own country, and accuse anyone who asserts that there is of being a racist / xenophobe / Little Englander etc, etc...
The same old tactics of the left really - throw around all manner of unpleasant labels at people who express any thoughts of national pride or ideas of nationhood to make those views seem socially unnacceptable. There is something almost totalitarian about the constant, slavish PC mantras of the 'multi-culturalism and diversity' set.
To "The Woman in the Tube",
The situation that the PC crowd have created is this. If you're patriotic than you believe every other nation is inferior. It's the all or nothing mentality. I'm proud to be American but I love the culture and history of the UK, Ireland, France, Germany and other nations around the world that I've been to. There's nothing I like more than to sit and have a pint with a proud Englishman, Irishman and even a proud Frenchman. We all have our different stories to tell and history to pass along to our children. It would be a shame if in the future the only difference between us is our postal codes. How boring would that be?
The day they start issuing World Citizen ID cards is a day I'll call out sick.
Reed said...
"Actually, a lot of English people are starting to feel the same way."
Exactly.
"There is something almost totalitarian about the constant, slavish PC mantras of the 'multi-culturalism and diversity' set."
Nothing almost about it. Unless you imply that a left-wing mentality is a form of mental illness and therefore we must show some forbearance. Personally, I say kill them, legally of course.
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