I don't believe in macho posturing on law and order and terrorism. The row that you have seen in the papers that John has fanned up, that's a matter for him. I don't mind. It's water off a duck's back, frankly. [People should not be stopped and searched] arbitrarily on the street as Home Office briefings seemed to suggest a couple of weeks ago. We've got to strike a very careful balance between being strong on security and protective of civil liberties... We've got to get away from big spin and macho posturing because that doesn't actually make people feel safer... What you've seen in the papers is actually not true. That's all I'm going to say about it.Over to you, Dr Reid...
Sunday, June 10, 2007
Hain to Reid: It's War
Collective Cabinet responsibility was shattered today as Peter Hain effectovely declared war on Home Secretary John Reid over Stop & Search. Speaking on the Welsh edition of the BBC's Politics Show, Hain said...
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36 comments:
As Toby Young might say 'How to lose friends and alienate people'..
Not sure I understand the point of this ? If Reid is genuinely making mischief by quoting inaccurately what Hain said [or making up something he didn't] I could see the point.
But I don't really believe that - it looks more like a case of Hain trying to curry favour with Brown, knowing that Reid has a 'bit of history' with El Gordo.
Mind you, if he is 'tail-end charlie' in the Deputy Leadership stakes, he may figure he has nowt to lose by going on a 'death or glory' bid to make a name for himself..
It does seem like a playground fight which is in danger of getting out of hand..
Dr Reid, do you think that a Ph.D is anything to boast about?
I'm in favour of stop and search. You are less likely to carry a gun or a knife if you stand the chance of getting searched. I don't mind being searched, it happens at airports all the time without any of our civil liberties being broken. With a rising number of people carrying weapons, this policy is just commonsense.
Reid, like Blair, is on his way out. Expect a few more spanners over the next three weeks. Best to just ignore them.
Well done Hain though for putting the record straight
The Northern Ireland Secretary said:
I don't believe in macho posturing on law and order and terrorism
Out of their own mouths...
Stop and search should be applied to politicians.
If the police stopped 6 politicians and searched them all, they might be able to find three brains - tops.
Madasafish:
Succinct and brilliant!
Fantastic scoop Iain. Where are the journos on this one?
Home Secretary and N.I Secretary like ferrets in the proverbial sack.
Hain "setting the record straight"? Yeah, really? Look for Reid to release his letter suggesting these powers to the press.
Er, not sure how it is a scoop when I say in the piece it is what he said on the Politics Show!!
I detest Hain I really do, I can hardly engage my brain at all whe I hear him start to pontificate.....Just thought I`d share that
Hain should be stopped and searched......and sectioned....the man is a menace to himself.
I do wonder though if he really did do that bank robbery back in 1974.....never found anyone else for that one did they ?
Dont disturb the water too much Dr Reid, we are hoping that he gets the job, and then we get him out of our hair here in Wales.
Yesssssssss
I don't mind stop-and-search-if-there's-a-sensible-reason but I can't bear the way that all this is wrapped up in anti-terrorist legislation - as if bombers just mill about in the street with explosives in their rucksack.
The real problems in this country are not terrorism.
Achilles 8.45 PM
Yes!
Hain knows that Reid is gone in a couple of weeks, so he has nothing to lose by giving him a kicking, and something to gain. This way he gets a few more brownie points with the electors of the Labour Party and who cares if a bit more confusion is added to the issue of anti-terrorism legislation. This matter is too important to be spun as part of an internal Labour Party election. All concerned need to think of their country and not their CVs.
what a load of slimy self-serving scumbags they are.
Reid has floated so many idiot ideas while at the home office nobady ever knows if he is serious or not.
Hain saying something isnt actually correct shouldnt be taken as gospel should it
Thats a bit like taking Tony at face value.
Sadly they are probably lying and we have no way of finding out the truth.
Hain must know he's approved of by Brown over this. Are the Blairites declaring war on Brownites from beyond the political grave? First Blair's apology. Now Hain and Reid. The war between Gordon and Tony will run on right through to the bitterbfj end. The fat lady ain't singing yet.
Of course, Peter Hain is the only one of the candidates for Deputy Leadership of the Labour Party to have been convicted of Criminal Conspiracy (nothing to do with the bank robbery).
Sorry Iain, for the benefit of those of us who don't follow the intimate details of Labour in fighting, are they:
1.Both Brown insiders jockeying for position, or
2.One an insider trying to give the outsider a going over, or
3.One of them an outsider trying to discredit an insider, or
4.Both outsiders realising they have no future under Brown and therefore acting on long held grudges?
The real problem with increasing the scope of stop-search powers is that the use of the powers is seriously limited by the comical paperwork which accompanies every stop.
Back in the days of the Marsupial Constable ("always in someone's pocket"), paperwork was limited, searches were frequent and results were apparent. I lived and worked in an area free from racial tension, so never saw any of the racially-targetted stops which seemed to brew up such a storm (unless East Anglian Inbreds count as an effnik moronity).
To stop and search a known burglar, knife carrier and drug dealer now forces me to fill out a form which is the equivalent of around six old-fashioned aprking tickets, both in time and ink. God forbid that I should actually find anything, as that's where the pain really begins.
I'd be quite happy to have the power to stop, search, question or incarcerate anyone, given reasonable grounds to suspect them of an appropriate offence.
There is always the possibility that someone, somewhere will abuse their powers - but then the same person will abuse their power to issue tickets, or any other power you give them. When it's a copper, it's bad news. When it's a politician, it's not even news anymore.
Look on BBC'S Have Your Say forum whenever an issue relating to our civil liberties is discussed and you'll see a clear majority of very angry people saying that our government are about as big a threat as the terrorists are to UK - to our security, our rule of law, our democracy, due process, our national values, our way of life and our freedom.
So Hain's right - yet what a hypocrite he is to now criticise the surveillance state and liberty crushing Big Brother state machine of which he's an architect and an integral part.
Hain is one of those who have been filling their boots with our money by selling off our democracy and our freedom. Igt sickens me to the back teeth that he now has the outrageous nerve to claim to want to protect our freedom.
Daily Referendum said...
I'm in favour of stop and search.
It's easy for you to sit up there in Scotland and be in favour stop & search, DR. You and yours are highly unlikely to experience the public humiliation, appalling sense of powerlessness, invasion of privacy and denial of civil liberties that an innocent person singled out to meet police targets would feel.
I live in the South East of England where this repressive policy will most certainly be applied. I am very much opposed to it, not just for me but for all of the innocent people who's civil liberty will be abused by it.
My father was twice injured during while fighting Hitler's army for our freedom during the last war. My mother was almost killed driving an ambulance during the blitz. They, and millions of others like them, sacrificed years of their youth to fight for our freedom. They did not make such huge sacrifices in order for our own government to introduce quasi-fascist measures like this one.
What next, smokers, obese and elderly people, drinkers and God knows who else to wear yellow stars?
Hain, Reid: both thoroughly unpleasant people. Who cares who wins?
Why hasnt the suth ufrican satsuma ever been prosecuted /sued for criminal damage?
I would like to say a few more thngs about him but Mr Dale wont allow me to.
Achilles 8.45 PM
Gosh Yes. Far from easy.
Anon @ 11:47
I'm English and live in the South East.
I've also served sixteen years in the armed forces. Before going into a rant, try visiting my blog first.
And if I've got something to say, I put my name to it.
Hazel Blears pointed this out to Peter Hain during the Question Time debate a couple of weeks ago.
It's not new news.
Interesting multiple choice, Mark Williams.
Reid is a Blair man and not a Brown man. He is not looking to be in a Brown cabinet, so he will be a potential loose cannon as far as Brown is concerned. That must give Gordon the heeby jeebies.
Hain must be getting maximum brownie points with Brown for attacking Reid, and right now he must be wondering how high a position he will get with Brown.
Is there more to it than that?
The Blair and Brown camps are finally dividing, and the Brown camp want the Blairites dead.
The Brown camp need the Blarites "dead" because of all the dirt they have on Brown. Brown will be seriously worried that if he starts upsetting the Blairites they will "brief" him out of office!
The TB-GB cold war has been going on since 94 and it's about to get yet more interesting!
When Blair became PM,it was very much year zero with everything past being of no account.I wonder whether we are going to have a second one when Brown takes over.Blair's vanity and demand for a "legacy" suggests that he will not take kindly to it.I suspect we will continue to have a low level civil war within Nulab for years.
>My father was twice injured during while fighting Hitler's army for our freedom during the last war. My mother was almost killed driving an ambulance during the blitz. They, and millions of others like them, sacrificed years of their youth to fight for our freedom. They did not make such huge sacrifices in order for our own government to introduce quasi-fascist measures like this one.
You might want to think about why the government in WWII interned enemy aliens for the duration, also the likes of the Mosleys. Where freedom is threatened, you have to do some nasty things to protect it, or you'll lose it. The main thing is to make sure you only do the nasty things to the right people. There were a lot of internees who didn't pose a threat - kinda hard not to make that happen, of course. Still, look at it this way; without internment, the Amadeus Quartet would never have met, so WWII must have been worthwhile. /irony off
Daily Referendum said...
"And if I've got something to say, I put my name to it."
Really?
Did your parents hate you that they called you 'Daily'?
ed. Yes I agree. Hain's tone is one of fear. Blair and Reid know where all the bodies are buried.
Postal vote fraud anyone?
Chris said:
You might want to think about why the government in WWII interned enemy aliens for the duration, also the likes of the Mosleys. Where freedom is threatened, you have to do some nasty things to protect it, or you'll lose it.
Are you suggesting we're fighting WW3, because it sounds like it to me.
Over 10,000 bombs fell on the East End alone during WW2.
And 60 MILLION people were killed during that war.
The current terrorist threat - which is being hugely stoked up and spun by our government for its own ends - comes nowhere near the threat we were subjected during WW2.
Also, if we didn't need 90 days questioning, stop & search, transformation into a surveillance and police state - and the whole raft of liberty and democracy eroding measures established by this government - during the IRA terrorist attacks, or during the cold war, or the Cuban missile crisis, then we do not need these measures now.
Far from increasing our security, I believe these oppressive measures increase the threat to us by encouraging the development and recruitment of disaffected radicals. Didn't our security services warn Blair of this danger?
Daily Referendum said...
Anon @ 11:47
I've also served sixteen years in the armed forces. Before going into a rant, try visiting my blog first.
And if I've got something to say, I put my name to it.
Then why haven't you put your name to this?
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