Wednesday, June 13, 2007

The Daily Telegraph v David Cameron: Episode 94

The Daily Telegraph has done its best to reignite the grammar school row today with THIS article which reports on a new study, which , its says, proves that grammar schools provide social mobility. David Willetts says it does nothing of the sort and now the report's authors have piled in too and backed up Willetts. One of the authors - Dr Sandra McNally - who was very angry about the coverage gave this quote...

This paper is only directed at one narrow question about Northern Irish
education. The paper does not address or provide evidence on whether
selective or comprehensive education systems do better and provides no support
for reintroducing grammar schools across the UK. The paper does, however,
provide evidence that the grammar school system entrenches social disadvantage.
Gervas Huxley of the University of Bristol University was a bit stronger...
This paper is clearly not a 'setback' for David Cameron – to the very small
degree that it enters into the debate, it supports him

Sam Coates on Conservative Home reckons this is a deliberate attempt by the Telegraph to fire another broadside at David Cameron. That may be the case, but there is a lesson here. David Cameron keep making snide remarks about the Telegraph in public - as he did again at the Conservative Friends of Israel lunch yesterday. It's not clever and it's not funny. He needs to woo the Telegraph. It is much more difficult to win an election if more or less the entirety of the British press is ranged against you. Getting the Telegraph back on side should be the first taskm in Andy Coulson's in tray.

70 comments:

Unknown said...

wooing is not a one-way relationship.

The Telegraph publicly attacks DC every time it gets a chance so I can't blaming him for having a go back.

So long as Heffer has anything to do with it the Telegraph will remain the only UKIP newspaper. It's readership is now in freefall and it's not hard to see why. I still look at the online edition but refuse to pay money for such a miserabilist paper

Anonymous said...

I don't think that it is clever or funny for the likes of Heffer and Daley to week in week out attack and undermine David Cameron in quite a nasty and transparent manner.
I always thought you quite fair Iain, but to attack David Cameron in the same fashion as those two when he would have to go a long way to match the Telegraph's behaviour to him is ironic!
As Steve Albury points out "wooing is not a one-way relationship", and the Leader of the Conservative party is answerable to his members and the voters before he is to a newspaper which has sadly lost its way, and is not worth buying these days. If you appeal to UKIP reader then you will attract UKIP levels of readership.

Anonymous said...

i was told by a Tory friend of mine that there are some real rumblings in the Tory ranks. (and that there is a potential coup in tha making)

He said that he thought that David Davis still thinks that he could do the job.

Anonymous said...

This is the price cameron is paying for not having a serious Press Secretary until recent arrival of Coulson.

You can't negelct Editors, Executives and Opinion formers in this way.

Presumably DC's most senior advisoers did not want an experienced PR throwing in their advice and offering alternative counsel and hence employed a junior press team who acted under direct instruction.

I think that hasn't worked and you are right - coulson now has to form relationships with all the papers.

Press management has been the only area (in my opinion) which has seriously almost chronically deterioated under Cameron.

Geezer said...

I suspect, what Cameron says would have little effect on the DT's Current editorial line.
The Telegraph is turning into a disgrace. It was the only option after The Times became a NuLab apologist rag, but now it seems to be plugging a subtle Brownite line by trying to undermine Cameron. It makes you wonder what the real agenda is at the DT, as with Dacre at the Mail. Have the Barclay brothers done a deal with the devil, they do have many other business interests that Brown could possibly help or hinder? It's circulation will drop like a stone, because the average DT reader will spot a sinister editorial shift in no time. It doesn't have to be the mouthpiece of the Tory Party, but it's role has never been to attack it. It's another nail in the coffin of democracy in this country. Most of the MSM are batting for Brown to a greater or lesser extent.
Never mind Iain, it should increase the traffic to this site!!
Keep up the good work!

Anonymous said...

I agree. Cameron needs to reflect the wishes of Telegraph readers more. An end to the environmental nonsense, some tax cuts and a bit of anti-Europeanism. And make it sharpish Dave...you might even get my vote back, but at the moment it is headed for UKIP.

Anonymous said...

I join Simon Heffer in thinking that the Tories have called the game plan wrongly, especially in the light of our Froggy friends.

What Cameron is giving us is Blair Lite. Employing an Alistair Campbell clone does not serve to dispel that fact.

All over Europe people are waking up to the problem of immigration and failed "multiculturalism". They are waking up to the deception of subcultural power struggles disguised as an assertion of "rights" and the hypocracy of championing the rights of women whilst allowing a mysogynistic Islam to flourish. National security is more under threat now than it ever was in the days of the IRA, and yet we are not hearing about that - instead we get all this crap about a nice fluffy green Conservative Party that wants to talk about recycling.

If they carry on like this, Gordon Brown's term as an unelected Prime Minister may get an extension. Alternatively there will be a hung Parliament and you will all have to speak to Liberal Democrats.

Its time to reassess all those difficult "Patrick Mercer" moments to discern whether all of this fake chumminess will really wash.

Telegraph readers will not buy it.

Telegraph readers have not gone away. They never went away.

Chris Paul said...

If he has to kowtow to the Telegraph to get in their good books then he would do well to continue to fight the daft old buggers.

It will play well for him to continue this. It is all play acting of course. He is an empty vessel trying to win at all costs and never mind principle. But it would be a mistake to go after the Telegraph's affections when he is looking to the Mirror and the Sun to come across.

Andrew Ian Dodge said...

The Comoronies have been slagging off the Telegraph and its readers for quite a long time. Iain you are right that is a pretty dumb idea to say anything publically. Knowing their arrogance they probably think DT readers have no were else to go so they can be abused.

Anonymous said...

When Cameron has alienated the Telegraph readers and the vociferous Daily Mail subscribers but gained the Sun and the Mirror -which party will he be leading?

Victor

Iain Dale said...

Chris Paul demonstrates his ignorance once again. The thought of the Mirror "coming across" is laughable.

Anonymous said...

Iain, Well, as the Telegraph's newest and greatest columnist, you would rather say that, wouldn't you? ;)

Hughes Views said...

Maybe DC should join his hero Tony Blair's campaign for better press regulation?!

Anonymous said...

This story is also in my edition of the Daily Mail, page 17: "Exam results boosted by the grammar effect"

Anonymous said...

With the notable exception of Mr Heffer, I don't think the Telegraph is anti-Cameron. They don't have to agree 100% with everything that emerges from CCHQ, to be supportive of the general drift.

Their ongoing serialisation of the Direct Democracy - localist papers on their think local microsite feeds into the localist theme which runs through much of Mr Cameron's agenda for the next Conservative Gov't.

Anonymous said...

The Telegraph is a dire newspaper just like the others, but Heffer is one of the few interesting journos - provocative - but interesting and amusing. There is really only Melanie Phillips, Peter Hitchens, Simon Heffer, Jeff Randall who have any real vim....the rest are soporific.

I frankly don't care what Cameron says. it is clear if you have children you have to pay for fee-paying schools. The taxes are merely a way of separating the lower middle class from the heavy-hitters and keeping the elite in hereditary clover.

Why not simply face up to the fact that class is the basis of British society and always will be. Cameron is another Southern Tory of the old school who wants to tread the boards and pretend he's one of the plebs with their interests at heart.

Politics is about Power and with Power you can make returns for those who invest in you. Blair did. He made lots of investors in PFI rich. Now they need a new front man. Why not Cameron ?

Don't think he'll get elected though - too predictable now Blair has published the script - the only novelty will be with Brown and he's probably got 6 years as PM ahead

Anonymous said...

"The paper does, however,
provide evidence that the grammar school system entrenches social disadvantage."

That is a diliberately misleading statement. My reading of the report is that the relative increase in grammar school places awarded to pupils more or less corresponds with the proportions of free school and non-free school meal pupils; this is an entirely expected result other than for those who expect working class children to equal middle class children in average attainment through some form of educational manipulation and pigs to grow wings and fly.

In short, the report indicates that grammars achieve across the board improvements. It does not prove that streamed comprehensives with strictly academic streams
would not equal grammars but neither does it, and how could it, when the practical implications of providing fully staffed academic streams in poor comprehensives and ensuring that the few bright children are not subject to constant indimidation by the mass are taken into account.
Education needs to be depoliticised for the benefit of the country's future. Education is a local matter and should be handled accordingly.

Anonymous said...

@Steve Albury
" It's readership is now in freefall"

The Telegraph is head and shoulders the best selling daily broadsheet, and its circulation figures are holding up.

Anonymous said...

The Cameron boy (for that is what he is!) is still playing the politics of the Eton school yard. One cannot take on the press...and win. He has shown his crass juvenile thought processes. The Tories must stand up to this wilfull and poor 'leader'? and replace him and his public school followers before Brown takes a massive lead in the opinion polls.

Hopefully Kenneth Clarke will still allow himself to stand for leader. HE is the leader the party needs. Not this man who has not had a proper job.

Anonymous said...

The members of Ukip are.....

The Daily Telegraph is......

The Daily Mail and Mail on Sunday are.....

He is getting some formidable newspapers against him! Methinks he is a Labour mole and is determined to wreck the Tory Party.

It is getting very late for the Tory Party to wake up and ditch him. If they dont I am afraid they are unelectable.

Anonymous said...

Oh heavens, the Ken Clarke brigade are out again.

Yes, the Party really needs a superannuated, elderly, idle, plummy-voiced director of a tobacco company to lead it - to utter oblivion.

Newmania said...

I read it that way and Simon Heffers lead article was pretty weak really.
I have been terribly disappointed by the belligerent and entirely dishonest attitude of the right to the Grammar school debate. The forces of Conservatism absolutely cannot afford to split and I begin to wonder if the U -KIPPERS are people so old that they would rather fulminate like a raddled collection of incontinent bone sacks than concern themselves with the fate of the rest of us under the socialist Brown.
Is it that having had free further education , dental care , low cost housing and low taxes , final salary pensions whilst earning they now feel a little socialism might be a good thing for everyone else to endure .David Cameron is patently doing the right things and deserves more than a lot of livererish myopic nostalgia .

Forth hurst - I seem to be disagreeing with you a lot . Education is not a just a local matter, it is a class matter and you cannot extrapolate from small pockets of Grammars which are not there by coincidence. Think of the concept of control sample for second and all will be clear. Secondary Moderns are not coming back and the desire of the Lower Middleclasses to get the working class to pay for their children to have public school education. smells just as bad no matter how you perfume it . Social mobility is not a negotiable objective . Without it there is absolutely no moral justification for a small state and low safety net, it is actually getting worse , far worse.

1 Remove charitable status from public schools they are not charities they are designed to focus privilege onto the already privileged
2 Introduce the Lottery over a wide catchmemnt , this will provide homogenous intake and transparent performance
3 Exams to be less but standard
4 Setting and other good teaching practice ( which will automatically be reinforced)
5 Operate a voucher option at the edge of the market to spread efficiency throughtout as elsewhere
6In this context remove the tentacles of the NUT and teaching colleges .


All of these ideas are floating around both Parties and for the Conservative Party to continue a discussion appropriate to the late 50s is to make it an laughing stock

Scary Biscuits said...

One the Daily Telegraph, Lord Black looks like winning against his US prosecutors. Perhaps then we can look forward to him returning to the UK paper market and undoing some of the damage the Barclay brothers (owners of the Telegraph) and the Murdoch family (owners of the Times) have done to the dumbing down of UK newspapers and the merging of fact and comment.

Meanwhile, you can't attach the Telegraph for being anti-Cameron as most of its readers are, particularly the older ones. Chatterbox, what do you want it to do - deliberately turn away paying customters so it can 'support' Cameron.

The stupid ones here are Cameron's CCHQ flunkies. They think that all they need to do to win the next election is to be nasty to traditional Conservatives. They think this because of what Blair did to Old Labour. What they don't seem to realise is that unlike Old Labour, most old conservatives are pretty popular and its the trendy stuff like John Major's drive to put women on warships that everybody hates.

Newmania said...

Scary B
most old conservatives are pretty popular.

Not in marginal seats or inany useful way. I find old Conservatives fine in real life ( I`m 43 myself ). I think , however , in isolation , they become like a pack of irresponsible vandals virtually hanging around on street corners shouting " Grammars and NO gays "offensively at passers by.
These silver surfers need some discipline in their hedonistic lives of Dionysian sensuality

Scary Biscuits said...

Newmania,

Perhaps you are disagreeing with everybody else because you're not really a Conservative?

I thought the argument in favour of Grammar schools was precisely that they DO encourage socialy mobility? I have yet to see anybody disprove this.

Whatever your opinion on Grammars, one thing is clear the status quo doesn't work and Blair/Cameron tinkering at the edges is unlikely to work. To me they seem especially unlikely to work if they select on race or social class as Brown/Cameron seem to be in favour of (an echo of positive discrimination lists for consitituencies).

Blair/Brown/Cameron and Newmania are competing against each other in coming up with central prescription for schools. All are equally likely to fail because none address the union grip on local schools (which will, for example, stymie any attempt at streaming within schools).

By contrast the genuinely Conservative policy is to let schools make up their own minds. Set them free from central control. Give power to local communities to choose their own governor and let their own councillors manage them. If Liverpool want to have comprehensives, who are the people of Buckinghamshire to tell them otherwise. Equally if the people of Notting Hill want Academies, why must they force this on Bucks? Then perhaps, we can get away from black-and-white crude distinctions between secondary-modern and grammer and go back to the status quo pro ante of schools called Kind Edwards or St Mary's with local people knowing the difference and being able to choose freely.

Geezer said...

"Conservative Party to continue a discussion appropriate to the late 50s is to make it an laughing stock"

Excellent point. The old duffers that make up the traditional "right" in this country/Tory Party, still think they can engage the parts of the electorate that need to be engaged, by belting out a load of 1950's style rhetoric. FFS! have they learnt nothing from the last 3 elections!!! The last two Conservative campaigns were waged on a load of grassroots right-wing rhetoric, and how well did the Conservatives do, less than 33% of the electorate voted for them! It looks to many people, at best, out-dated and irrelevant, and worst, just plain nasty. Remember the "Back to Basics" nonsense of Major, how that came back to bite them on the arse!

Cameron knows he has to make the Tory Party stop looking like the party that your parents voted for, it has to be relevant to the under '40s. The Conservatives vote would probably top-out at about 35-36% at most, in a GE, if they go in with the same old fashioned hot-air, even with a very unpopular Labour government. To win back the middle ground and the younger voters (WHICH EVERY PARTY NEEDS TO WIN!) the tone has to change. For the most part, it is merely changing the rhetoric, rather than ideological or policy direction. Grammar schools were replaced by comprehensives in vast numbers by the previous 2 Tory governments, they would never be re-introduced, whatever the official Party line was, Cameron knows this. The population will not embrace "traditional" values, because they say they should. The social/moral clock cannot be turned-back 50 years, no matter how much the blue-rinsers want it to, as the last Conservative government proved. Cameron knows this.
Not to mention, the delight the BBC and Nulab's other media friends would take, in kicking the crap out of the "nasty" Tory party again and I don't want to see the un-elected "opinion-makers" in the media, decide which party runs this country.

Anonymous said...

Newmania should read the LSE report - it has nothing to do with small pockets of grammars, on the contrary, NI never abolished any; what it did was increase the numbers of grammar schools, achieving a further increase in performance for all pupils, ie the quantity of GCEs and As achieved overall. Poor children already had access to academic teaching originally and their position was improved per rata by the increase in grammar schools. Leave Kent out of it, its a complete red herring as far as this report is concerned.

simonh said...

"The press is like the weather; there's no point in complaining about it".

Politicians are obsessed with the desire to have themselves reported favourably in the media and consumed by a sense of grievance if they come under attack. See Blair's speech yesterday and Cameron's behaviour passim.

Cameron is, if anything, worse perhaps because as an ex-PR man he feels he should have the media eating out of his hand (and, for a while, did).

Some people seem to believe that the Telegraph should, as a matter of duty, support the Tory party in all it says and does. Why? (The answer "because it's a Tory paper" doesn't cut the mustard).

Anonymous said...

@Scary Biscuits [super alias :-) ]
"All are equally likely to fail because none address the union grip on local schools"

As I understand it the voucher system Messrs Cameron and Willetts are suggesting includes encouraging new schools, which would presumably be free of a PC 'no competition' ethos.

Anonymous said...

I am a Telegraph reader and former conservative and I think that paper is reflecting what a lot of the electorate thinks.

David Cameron seems to be on a course of self destruction. The Tories will hang on to him like they did John Major - to the bitter end.

This is what happens when you choose your leader in haste on the basis of one speech at a party conference.

Newmania said...

Fothhurst- If you wished to find the most atypical part of the UK you could not do much better than NI .As it would only be selection by wealth by other means I really doubt it would make much difference. Hard to be worse I grant you


Mr . S Biscuit - I am a cetainly a Conservative and the whole rationale of my argumnent is that equal opportunity justifies a small state and allows teachers to be monitored transparently .
I must say that as I spend most of my life being told I am a reactionary pig ,I am enjoying this new "left" position. New positions are always fun. You think localism will solve everything

Liberal

Must beaver

Anonymous said...

Why would Eton Dave want to woo the Telegraph? It is not Socialist or Liberal.He should treat the Telegraph like the Conservative Party membership and IGNORE IT!

Anonymous said...

Anon 2.39 Sadly you are right,painfully right.His mate "Flip" Osborne is no better.

Anonymous said...

Simon-I Have no doubt that the Telegraph does support the Conservative Party-it's the CUCKOO IN THE NEST that they don't support.

Geezer said...

"David Cameron seems to be on a course of self destruction. The Tories will hang on to him like they did John Major - to the bitter end".

What planet are idiots like you on?

Cameron has maintained a very healthy lead in the poles (despite a Brownite MSM), and faces a very corrupt, incompetent and generally hopeless government, who is replacing a very unpopular leader with an even more unpopular leader, who will continue in their downward spiral for the next few years, no doubt.

This is 2007 not 1957! Get over it FFS!

Anonymous said...

The problem with the whole Cameroon modernising experiment is that the views and interests of its leaders are not those of the party bedrock. The sooner the latter realise that and get rid of Cameron the better. Does anyone really think Cameron and his Etonian mates have anything in common with the average DT reader who might aspire to send his /her kids to a grammar if there is one or a private school if they can afford one. Of course not. Do you reckon they even read the DT as a matter of choice? I very much doubt it. The sooner Tory Party members and voters realise the inherent contradiction between the modernisers agenda and those of real conservatives, the better for the Tory Party and the country.

Anonymous said...

Blair blew it yes.But Dave aint won it!Perhaps people are backing the massive array of glittering new policies?

Anonymous said...

When are people going to realise that there are now 2 completely separate parties calling themselves Conservative. The Sub-urban and rural part of the party have entirely different beliefs and aspirations from the townie elements of the party. It is not just a "old-fogey, Telegraph readers" v the rest as Newmania and co are trying to suggest.

There is only one sensible solution to the problem and that is to split the party in two.

Anonymous said...

Born 1964 at the start of the Wilson,Brown,Stonehouse,Kegan era.
That would explain it.

Anonymous said...

towcestarian-and the Labour Party are in the same boat thanks to Tone.

Anonymous said...

sage: all the press secretaries in the world (including News of the Screws) will fail if the basis is all spin,media and no policy.He's toast-they just haven't yet worked it out.

Anonymous said...

What are we supposed to make of a posh twat from Eton and Oxford who says he is against selection?

Madasafish said...

okziI find many of the comments here very interesting : the interest being how out of touch with the real world. I am a long time Cons voter and DT reader ...and take grave exception to many of the remarks here.

1. "The problem with the whole Cameroon modernising experiment is that the views and interests of its leaders are not those of the party bedrock."

Well there are omnly about 300,000 party members - and they are of an average age >60 and voted for IDS and Michael H..

If you appeal to them alone, you are NOT going to win many seats.. which is needed in Manchester , and Liverpool and Scotland and Wales IF the Cons are to be elected.
So absolute muppetry.. sorry.
2. The suggestion that David Davis will be a better leader than DC... which planet are you on? What has he done in the past 2 years to broaden the party's votability?
The man is practically invisible - maybe a good thing after his party election speech.

Most of you appear to make Simon Heffer look uptodate .. whilst in reality he's a boring old f##t.
(aplogies to SH... he can't he;lp it but as a messenger he is not very effective.

As far as DC is concerned, he may be ineffectual in some eyes.. but he's the only Conservative MP I've seen and heard who lives and appeald to the 21st century electorate.. or would you have the Vulcan as leader and commit suicide properly.

Newmania said...

There is only one sensible solution to the problem and that is to split the party in two.

The last time the forces of Conservatism did that was after the Corn Laws making Conservatives irrelevant until Disraeli saved them by inventing "One Nation Conservatism"
I am not an urban Liberal , I am quite right wing actually in many ways . Realism compromise and discipline are required not a weimarish debating rabble.
I disagree that there is anything about David Cameron that is not Conservative .He may be currently less wedded to Libertarian policies than Margaret Thatcher ( her rhetoric anyway) but that is not what a Conservative essentially is although markets are important.
Personally I have never met a Conservative I did not like and poretty much agbree with and I suspect the differences are somewhat exaggerated for the fun of it.

Anonymous said...

chips...posh is offensive and has Beckonian connotations.

Anonymous said...

"towcestarian-and the Labour Party are in the same boat thanks to Tone."

I hadn't thought of it that way, but I guess you are right. TB has completely urbanised politics, leaving the right-of-centre non-urbans with no natural political home.

DC is banking on them not defecting to fringe parties in large numbers (probably a safe bet). However, what he hasn't fully realised is that the "old Conservative Party" is quite prepared to rock the boat for all its worth on the basis that many they are just as alarmed at the thought of an urban DC led government as an urban GB led government.

Splitting the party up along regional lines seems a good a way to stop the increasing level of Conservative in-fighting. In fact I can't see any other way of doing it.

Sir-C4' said...

Cameron needs a punch in the face.

Newmania said...

It is of vital importance that everyone sticks together in a spirit of realistic pragmatism if needs be.

This ideological rumplestiltskin shtick reminds me of Old labour and I do hope it will not translate into votes.

Look take tax , Cameron cannot offer tax cuts because if he does then the Public Sector vote he needs will read Job cuts . He is focussed on the 800,000 that will swing the marginals and rightly so.
He has however said " tax simplification"....well you know what that means don`t you. make it visible , get support and then nudge rightwards. In every area you will find he is saying , stick with me , I am dealing with the possible and I have many audiences...but I am a Conservative .

He is doing a brilliant job and does not need a punch in the face.

Anonymous said...

Are we saying he's lying to all those people and will change policy if elected?

Sir-C4' said...

Sod the public sector, the private sector is the wealth-creating engine that is the key to creating a better Britain.

Tapestry said...

David Cameron started the inflammatory language such as 'delusional' 'loonies' 'fruitcakes' etc. The Telegraph's responding in kind.

It's a sign of the times, I guess. A strong leader doesn't need to insult supporters' views. If Cameron offers the politeness he's obviously well capable of even to those he doesn't agree with, he would probably do better. It's better to make those attacking you look unreasonable. As Blair always did. No cheap shots from him. They don't work, and invite return of fire.

The more open debate of issues that Cameron tolerates is most refreshing. He should play to his strengths.

Anonymous said...

Anon 4.07,

Agreed but somehow I think you have more chance of success with an ex editor of the NoTW than with an ex Strawberry Farmer.

Cameron saw the problem and dealt with it!

Anonymous said...

madasafish

when I say Cameroon leaders' interests not being the same as party bedrock: I mean your average tory voter probably reads the DT, mail, times; he/she will not have gone to Eton, St Pauls, Oxbridge, been a member of the Bullingdon, worked as a tory researcher, live in poor man's K&C, and hang out with a similarly unrepresentative bunch of metropolitan luvvies; they won't care that much about chocolate oranges or global warming (but will have the sense to see windmills on urban homes are a meaningless pose) and they wont want to hug a hoodie; I could go on but won't.

antifrank said...

Iain, so to recap your article, the Telegraph wilfully misrepresents a report in an effort to undermine David Cameron in a manner that the report's authors disown, and you conclude that it is David Cameron who needs to alter his behaviour. Do run that one past me again.

Anonymous said...

newmania you dont know what you are talking about, I can actually remember when grammar schools were universal in the UK, and they had plenty of children of poorer parents, but middle class children were certainly there in disproportionate numbers, and the reason for that was and is that there is a substantial component of iq which is heritable, and if you dont believe that, I suggest you start reading the grauniad and join the Labour party.

Anonymous said...

auntyfrank-whatever the answer is dave aint it.

Madasafish said...

Name me another Conservative politician who can lead better than DC and is electable by voters outside SE England.

Note the latter qualification... which is essential to win a General Election seeing how the CP ain't going to win it in Scotland or Wales.

Anonymous said...

Eton/Bullingdon will always be poular in the North.

Anonymous said...

The Telegraph isn't a UKIP paper. Fortunately it realises, like even Norman Tebbitt does, that a Tory vote for UKIP (on 2% in the recent YouGov poll and zero MPs) helps pro-Euro Labour and LibDems hold onto marginal seats.

Newmania said...

Forthhurst
there is a substantial component of which is heritable, and if you don’t believe that, I suggest you start reading the grauniad and join the Labour party.


Well if you seriously believe that half digested eugenic twaddle I suggests you join the last people to agree with you which might well have been the Socialists of the end of the century who like d that sort of thing . HG Wells and DH Lawrence were eugenicists as , of course , were the Nazis ( Ithenku). In fact the astonishing thing about humans compared to other animals is the homogeneity of their gene pool. There is more variation in a close familial group of chimps than there is between the entire human race. Moreover you misunderstand the cross related ness of all of us . We would not have to go back far ,a few generations , to find a mutual ancestor and that would, go for you and the entire “native “ population”. Genes flow freely in a stream not in a hierarchical pattern , a family tree only shows ione set of connection the real tree is endlessly criss-crossing As we have seen even were this not true the actual variations possible is very slight Evolution or the actual alteration by acquired characteristics has an upper speed limit of the rate of mutation which is on a scale vastly greater than human history and the passing perturbations of this or than supposed uber mench set. What you are talking about is really the Lamarkian error which supposed Blacksmiths passed on big hairy arms and often this will tend to be the case , it has nothing to do with inherited characteristics. Identical twins show signs of fairly close correlation but here you must bear in mind that genes do not work one was . They “Combine” and some express and some do not . The recipe works through the embryonic process and interacts in ways not fully understood . What we do know is that men and women give birth to either men or women not a mid way point. So when the identical twins breed the expressed genes are randomised .
That is not to say there is not the possibility of “Tall” family traits , l . There are not however tall; classes of people for the reasons I have outlined above. If this sort of breeding really took place imagine what would happen if you separated people for say 10,000 years and cut them off from all technology. That would be black people who are not , as race different intellectually , measured by IQ, from any other race. Minute differences between the races exist and the cleverest are the Eskimos . Seriously , they are , but this is such an infinitesimally small difference that it is irrelevant in individuals .

This is not Conservative or not , it is just wrong . Furthermore such thinking leads to vicious and repulsive conclusions that have nothing to do with Conservatism , Grammar schools or anything else in the respectable sphere of discussion. That includes the Telegraph which I have read my whole life ,, other reading I have on the go at the moment is “ Can we trust the BBC” Robin Aitken”, “ Disappearing Britain “Lindsay Jenkins and “The Retreat of Reason” Anthony Browne. My credentials are secure on that point. I will leave you to contemplate the great disservice your parents did you by being so stupid .

Shame.

Anonymous said...

is electable by voters outside SE England.

You mean he's popular in Cheltenham ? Noone in the North even mentions him because he is simply irrelevant.

The Conservatives are an alien grouping in Northern England and are now more than ever the Henley Regatta Pimms Party

Anonymous said...

Why do some of you seem to think the Tories should go back to where they were before DC became leader (ie. unelectable)?! DC is the most successful Tory leader since the 1992 election.

Anonymous said...

With all the high tax policies to prove it.

Anonymous said...

Does The telegraph really have to be wooed before it can support Cameron in removing this discredited government?
Cameron is far more popular than the party he leads. If The Telegraph genuinely wants a Conservative government, they have no choice but to back him, even if he feels as I do that the paper is not worth reading anymore.
The time to press Cameron on favourite issues is after an election.
For all it's worth, I've sacked the Mail and the Telegraph and I feel much calmer and happier now.

Anonymous said...

DC is the most successful Tory leader since the 1992 election.

June 13, 2007 9:09 PM


That is so absurd you must be being ironic. Cameron has never won an election, John Major did, and he has not lost one simply because he has not faced one.

Anonymous said...

bebopper-Bless!

Anonymous said...

Of course there's been no general election yet, observer - it's only 2 years since the previous one.
Just compare Cameron's ratings and local election results with those of any Tory leader since 1993 and you'll see what I mean.

Scipio said...

Why? Are the Telegraph going to say "Vote Brown" at the next election?

The DT represents, in the guise of Heffalump and Janet Daily, brands of Conservatism which DC wishes to distance himself from (social conservatism in the case of Heffers and economic low-tax, low intervention in the case of Janet Daley).

But, they are not going to come out against him are they.

That's why he is more interested in the Guardian - whom might, just might, not come out against him to strongly.

Anonymous said...

Whether intelligence characteristics can be passed on or not (I too understand genetics and Eskimos, and fail to see how they cannot to some extent) it's clear that Cameron has not inherited much in that department. I've sadly come to conclude that the man is an intellectual lightweight in the extreme, with apparently no political convictions beyond expressing softly-softly sentiments in a lovey-dovey voice.

Sorry but even if it means another term of Labour (and I have come to hate them) I will not be voting Blue at the next election if Cameron is still at the helm - it wold be as much a betrayal of my country as voting Labour.

Anonymous said...

Absolutely right TroyMalloy. When are people going to get it through their heads? There is no point electing a Conservative party,if they are no longer a Conservative party.
As Peter Hitchens rightly says "Office gained by too much compromise is not worth having, as it leaves no room for manoeuvre".
It doesn't matter whether Cameron courts the Mail, the Mirror, or the New Statesman, what matters is what his guiding principles are, and what he believes in, which tells voters what to expect from his Government.
And Cameron has no clear principles that differ from Labour's-so why bother electing him?
It is a waste of time.
Cameron must be defeated at the election, otherwise the Conservative Party and Labour Party will have merged, to the extent that democratic elections will be pointless from now on.