Let me be clear, I wish Britain to remain independent at all costs, but let's indulge in a little idle weekend fantasy politics, shall we? Let me ask you to put your cards on the table. If you had to make a choice between Britain joining a fully fledged United States of Europe or becoming a 51st State of the United States of America, which would you choose.
Vote HERE.
And this really is, just a bit of fun!
Just for the record, I have voted for the USA, as we have far more shared values and culture. I also base my decision in part on the fact that whenever I go to the States I feel completely at home - not as if I am visiting a foreign country, whereas when I visit any European country it feels like 'abroad'. I love Europe, but I love America more. Simplistic maybe, but that's how I feel.
62 comments:
America for me every time.
I have voted USA. However I do wonder how much time you have spent in northern Europe, Scandanavia or the Netherlands. Although I am very British I have always felt very much at home in those countries, and with Dutch and Scandanavian people.
The ideal would be to disassemble the EU, and have a Northern European Union, a loose federation of like-minded states.
I've thought this for ages and I am no anti-European. When we joined the Common Market there was no internet, no email, flying was exotic, the linguistic hegemony of English uncertain, we were still terrified by collective and first-hand memories of the second world war, scared by the Soviet threat and hoped we could make friends with our fellow Europeans. Ease of communications, recent history and a nearby threat made the decision for us.
Now, video conferencing to the US is routine, we outsource to the other side of the world, English is the dominant global language, the US is the undisputed and sole economic and military superpower, the 1939-1945 is now an optional part of the national curriculum, and we've been abroad enough to know that the US feels like home and Europe, though great, doesn't. All the Americans I know feel the same way too. Even the Europeans do - just listen to the French talking about the 'Anglo-Saxons'.
This isn't a silly question, since if we could had to make the 1973 decision all over again in current circumstances, who would make the decision for Europe rather than the US? Distance does not matter in the internet age, the Soviet Union is gone but the common culture and language remains. A voting block more powerful than California in the election of the US President or a few seats in the European Parliament? Creeping centralisation or a place in a proven and truly federal system of government? You'd have to be crazy to choose Europe.
Richard, I haven't been to Scandinavia much (only Norway) but I have spent a lot of time in most other European countries. As I say, I love them all (with the possible exception of Portugal), but I still feel 'abroad' when I am there. That's not a bad thing, but I just find I have more in common with Americans.
On balance small countries seem to do slightly better economicaly. I would not be astonished ti see the US break up & not surprised to see it turn in to a much looser federation. Even moreso for the EU.
Wasn't there a C4 documentary about this many years ago? It's been seriously considered before.
Interesting stuff.
it's a no brainer -u.s.a. u.s.a.
My family and I lived in the USA for two years. They were the happiest two years we've ever had. Real freedom, respect for people and property, functioning local councils, world class health care and value for our hard earned money.
In contrast, we've spent twelve years living and working in Europe - Germany, Luxembourg, Denmark. With the possible exception of Denmark, there's no comparison.
USA all the way!!!
USA for me but how long before the Americas are a trading block like the EU?
Oh, Iain, my little flower petal - are you forgetting about the Declaration of Independence and the American Revolutionary War?
Every 4th of July Americans rejoice at the rejection of British rule!
hahaha tough luck! You're stuck with Europe! :)
USA - no question.
No contest - USA
I guess you didn't read (or understand) the question. Did you, Canvas?
@ JuliaM
"If you had to make a choice between Britain joining a fully fledged United States of Europe or becoming a 51st State of the United States of America, which would you choose"
Silly question - America wouldn't have Britain. Remember Paul Revere's midnight ride... "The Britsh are coming".
:)
Either or?
American culture has developed from European culture over the past 4 or 500 years. Certainly there has been Anglo Saxon political dominance just as the French founded our political and legal structures 1000 years ago, but there are cultural influences from across Europe. German immigration in the 19th century was huge and the Spanish were there before us. Go to Minnesota and you will find a massive Swedish influence. And I don't even have to mention the Irish. The 18th century gentlemen who gained independence felt quite at home in Paris as in London.
The fact is, unpalatable as it may be, is that we owe more to 2500 years of European culture than we do to American.
What is attractive about American culture is that they have developed a reasonable working model of democracy where the individual matters. If an American citizen gets taken hostage or gets caught up in a tsunami they will generally move heaven and earth to get them back safely. Our government remains largely indifferent.
Unfortunately we share with Europe too many common attitudes towards individual rights. We witness the passing of laws and charters but in practice governments continue to do as they please and ignore their citizenry. Our present financial predicament - certainly the worst in my lifetime - is, as far as I can tell, being managed (mismanaged) by one man without reference to or consultation with anyone.
My point is that while we continue to blame Europe for everything we will never take it upon ourselves to improve our lot. This country started to make progress after we got out of "Europe" the first time at the Reformation and the eventual consequence was unparalleld industrial and trade development and a unique place in the world for this small.
island.
But that's the past. My view is that we need to look to ourselves and get our own house in order - a monumental task now. Abasing ourselves before successive American Presidents will do us no favours in the long run. Instead we need some vision of what this country can be, internal reform, strategic alliances - leadership, if we haven't forgotten what that is
Europe for me. Too many bad US policies have floated over the Atlantic and helped destroy out society.
I think part of the problem about Europe is that not so many speak a couple of European languages well. In the US of course we don't have that problem. Perhaps if a better choice of languages was given to primary children then their would be better integration.
OK Iain, I know you speak German.
Tschuss.
I'm anti EU and pro-Europe (for free trade, free movement of people, goods and services and against anti-democratic supra-national institutions, social engineering and technocracy) - this position is a little subtle for the many Guardianistas in my sphere - several of whom I am extremely fond of - who get quite vexed and accuse me of being a fascist. I voted for the USA because as a libertarian I couldn't vote for the EU/Europe which has a deeply authoritarian streak. Anyway - the US wouldn't bloody well have us!
America's objection was to English RULE.
There's a clue there, somewhere.. ;)
"I wish Britain to remain independent at all costs"
Then, Iain, you really have to be pushing for the UK to step back to EFTA status at the very least. To remain "in" is to accept that the UK is almost and will very soon become 12 regions in the Superstate. Note that "England" appears to be a prime target for erasure.
What is good about the US States is they each have their own constitution and can take themselves out of the Union. The EU, highlighting its insufferable arrogance and presumption over us all, thinks we have to "ask" and it will consider the terms.
We need a Jeffersonion approach to both the EU and the US as far as I am concerned - peace and trade with all, but binding agreements with none.
But, if we are presented with the false dichotomy, it has to be the US, not the EU, for the EU is slavery and death.
For me, the USA on the basis that despite its faults it's still run by an elected government, unlike the EUSSR which is run by a self-appointed quangocracy.
After a little thought I've plumped for the EU, even though I agree that the USA is more comfortable for day to day life.
The only reason for rejecting the USA is that, at their worst, than can be full of enthusiasms, like eugenics, prohibition, religious fundamentalism, McCarthyism, the war on drugs, the war on terror etc.
Of course some of their enthusiasms have worked. Abolition of slavery (eventually), civil rights (eventually), and landing men on the moon.
There are other examples of each - but so much enthusiasm seems to unsettle our more phlegmatic natures. Maybe a good thing, maybe not, but too rich for my taste.
I had to imagine a gun being pointed at my head, and Iain saying "Chose or Die, Sweinhunt!"
It was America.
Like Richard, I like Scandinavia a lot and have absorbed the culture enough to have Scandinavians at the top of my drinks list, reading list,car list, film director list, composer list, furniture list, pop star list, etc, etc, but then I don't really count Scandinavia as "Europe" any more than Turkey is. And that is the point, "Europe" is an artificial construct. It does not exist as a cultural entity where as America certainly does.
I read an article today that revealed that the Mafia has been bottling cheap fizz and exporting it to Britain as Champagne. So they can now add to the raft of fakes - Extra Virgin with used engine oil, mozzarella with strontium, testicle bolognese, etc. All states are ultimately corrupt, but I would rather be a part of one I can understand, so America it has to be.
I voted USA but maybe we should become the 51st, 52nd, 53rd and 54th States giving the Irish Republic the opportunity to become the 55th state Bear in mind Virgina was split in 1863 so a split Ireland would present no comnstitutional problem.
Iain
Indeed I agree with you about the rest of the continent. I have visited most countries in Europe with my work, and most are wonderful but alien to the British. I even liked Portugal, although I was working and drinking with a Canadian and an American, so that might have helped!
Even Germany, another part of Northern Europe, is very different.
Bryan Dunleavy
It was not the French but the Normans who formed England as we know it. Norman is a contraction of "Norse Man". They were Scandanavians who had been in Northern France for a relatively short time. About the only lasting cultural import from France has been the language, and the rich variety and flexibility of English with words absorbed from various languages has helped to spread its use around the world.
I have voted Europe. I hate everything about the USA and all its exports both human and cultural.
I love European art and films and buildings and history and literature and lakes and mountains and coast and people.
The USA started off well but the minority community we're not allowed to mention has ruined it.
Absolutely USA! No question!
Ian has a great idea. It would also allow Iceland to shore up its economy without Europe if they joined the US (after all geologically Reykjavik is more North American than European!). Perhaps the rest of Scandanavia would then like to further its distance from the European Project.
Roger Thornhill
I agree with your ideals but I would doubt that US States can remove themselves from the Union as you suggest. They fought a civil war last time states tries to do so, on that very issue (slavery was at most a trigger to the secessionists, although that is what most people talk about; the war was over the desire of the states to leave the Union, and the Federal Government not allowing them to). That is one of the greatest worries of the European Union, whether we would be allowed to leave.
The is very similar to a post and vote that I carried out last November.
The British government invariably jump when the American government of the day tells them to. It’s precisely why Charles de Gaulle said “Non” to Britain joining the Common Market for so long.
(De Gaulle had perforce spent some time in London.)
Depressingly, De Gaulle was right, the British government does indeed jump when the Americans tell them to.
[I'm a European and always have been. I lived in Maryland as a teenager and found American culture completely alien. I still do - despite finding US politics more interesting than British politics and despite enjoying Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert. (Well it is more interesting, of course.)]
And in any case, look at the bloody geography. Britain IS a European country. Duh.
Richard said... “That is one of the greatest worries of the European Union, whether we would be allowed to leave.”
It has always been a very silly non worry. It’s always been implicit in the Treaties and I seem to recall made explicit in the latest (someone can confirm/deny?) - unlike the USA where you would (and have) get stamped on from a very great height for daring to try.
I voted USA as America is a genuine democracy. However having lived in Germany and the US I did prefer Germany to be honest. Most Americans are very nice people but it is pretty brutal society when things get rough, and I think to be honest the quality of life was considerably lower than in Germany.
Europe is a wonderful place but as an Anglo-Saxon culture, we are permanently unhappy there - a square peg in a round hole. Ive never been anti the EU on principle - I can see why it would make sense for continental Europe - just anti our involvement in it.
That said I wouldn't want closer political ties with America much either. The whole 'special relationship' nonsense is deeply embarassing as it is. Just a pathetic attempt by our political class to convince themselves they are bigger than they really are. The flipside of our involvement with the EU in fact.
I'd much prefer to be the Hong Kong of Europe, with our politicians having a small footprint on the world but free floating and dealing with however we, the people, and not the political class, chose.
Of course, that option is not on the table because our scum politicans know it would mean a vast diminution of their career possibilities and self-importance.
"Europe for me. Too many bad US policies have floated over the Atlantic and helped destroy out society."
Almost exactly how I feel, except with the bad policies coming across the Channel from the EU.
"I think part of the problem about Europe is that not so many speak a couple of European languages well. In the US of course we don't have that problem. Perhaps if a better choice of languages was given to primary children then their would be better integration."
Why? Half a century ago, the physical distance was the biggest barrier - modern technology has reversed that situation. From here, factoring in checkin times etc, I can fly to New York in little more time than much of Europe - but the latter feels totally foreign to me, while New York is no more foreign to me than Newcastle or Birmingham.
Why should we try to expend resources to reverse this situation? Our resources would be better spent building global ties: reach out to our natural friends such as Canada and Australia, not foreign cultures which happen to be nearby.
Iain, You wish this Country to be Independent, yet you support the EU! That is just not logical.
We HAVE to come out of the EU and perhaps this NATO disgrace is the opportunity for us to become part of the USA. I am sure that Ireland would foolow suit, which would, at long last unite the British Isles once again.
We have far more in common with the USofA than any of the European Countries and we would still be able to trade with them and them with us.
Our defence relies on the USA and so it should continue.
Frankly Islington can declare UDI as far as I am concerned. The Polly Toynbee wanabee's have had their say in running this country and look at the bloody mess.
Come on letus get into bed with the North Americans.
Perhaps, this is what Brown will suggest and get swept back into power! Stranger things have happenned.
And all the rampant religious lunacy in much of the USA is enough to rule it out anyway. That’s a major reason why it’s so very alien (plus all the guns and attendant shootings).
There’s religion (and guns) in some other parts of Europe but nothing like the US.
[Of course people’s experience of the US can be so varied as the local culture state to state does differ a great deal.]
But, if nothing else, the rampant religious lunacy does it for me.
que?
I lived in a America for 20 years, and fervently voted for a United States of Europe.
You would stop feeling at home, Iain, if you lived in a place as long as I had, and still the first thing most new people say to you is "say something in that neat accent" followed by questions such as "how near London is Amsterdam"?
But if we left the EU they might stop exports to the UK. Where would we get our food from?
And what about all the cheap labour?
We'd better think this through carefully before answering.
"is it any more outrageous than the thought of Britain being subsumed into a European Federal State?"
Not really. It'd be cool though if we integrated with both the US and the EU at the same time. Then we'd be the lynchpin in a new World Mega-Hyperpower and could lord it over all the other countries that are in either one or the other.
I voted for Europe. The food's better...
A USE might be tolerable if in fact it was truly democratic and accountable to its electorate. As it stands, it's neither and unlikely to change, at least for the better.
I voted Europe after watching a bit of the American News Channels recently.
They really made my blood boil. Just have a look at some of the crap being spouted over there:
Apparently Europe are just a bunch of Socialist countries who should be thankful to America for protecting us and generally helping us all out over the years. Going further, Europe wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for the Americans. Also, America is responsible for all the technology and all the advancements that we use.
So without America, who have basically been a parent figure to our infant, we are nothing.
What a disgraceful attitude, and what a disgraceful and uneducated set of "facts" to spew out.
So screw America. They can get stuffed.
the rampant religious lunacy does it for me.
Rubbish.
You shouldn't read the Guardian so much.
Think of the benefits.
* No more moaning from Tories about the Single Market. US/Nafta is largest single market in the world.
* Huge federal state.
* Up to 40 shootings a week per 100,000 of the population.
John said... “I voted Europe after watching a bit of the American News Channels recently... ...What a disgraceful attitude, and what a disgraceful and uneducated set of "facts" to spew out.”
I fear you watched Faux News which is really very far-right and odd indeed. If you try CNN-US (available sound-only on the net) or MSNBC (not available here except a couple of shows via podcast) you might not be quite so appalled.
Anyone who tries to understand the US via Faux News is going to get an extremely distorted view. You need to watch it for the comedy. I recommend Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them: A Fair and Balanced Look at the Righ by the now junior Senator for Minnesota Al Franken.
Having said that, the amount of “foreign news” Americans get from their main 3 networks is ridiculous.
Yak40 said... “"the rampant religious lunacy does it for me." Rubbish.”
You forget I’ve both lived there and worked there and it’s got worse.
@YAK40. As a university lecturer in the US, I would *every semester* get major protests for teaching that teh world was older than 6000 years.
Europe with out question.
Americans are more stupid. They put up with depriving millions of the right to vote and did nothing about Bush and his war against terror and Guantanamo Bay and torture flights.
America of course. (I would vote for a nuclear strike on Brussels.)
You forget I’ve both lived there and worked there
Me too. You're still talking rubbish.
There's plenty of ignorant nutters both in the UK and in the US, one example being someone who'd quote Al Franken as a reliable news source (and he is not a US senator).
I have been touting the 51st state solution since all the Republicanism over the death of Diana. It seemed the ideal solution - we get a truly democratic constitution (I was always with Tony Benn over the iniquities of the Royal Prerogative) and it would solve the problem of getting rid of the House of Windsor (only on the death of the current incumbent of course). Its win win because we also get rid of the established church and we keep our ancient liberties like jury trial. The alternative is the autocratic European superstate - and we all know what there constitution is like. Its a no brainer.
Yak40 said... “There's plenty of ignorant nutters both in the UK and in the US, one example being someone who'd quote Al Franken as a reliable news source (and he is not a US senator).”
I was quoting Franken’s book as a fun read (which it is) on the ghastly Faux News and he is a Senator. How you translated that to “news source” is your own little problem.
The whole of American culture is suffused with the nuttiest sort of god-bothery as pointed out by Paul Halsall above - like huge numbers of these supposed bipeds going around claiming (no really) the earth is from 6,000 to less than 10,000 years old.
You may be able to tell the difference between many nutty Americans and many nutty Islamists but I can’t.
In the UK you don’t have to be a god-botherer to be elected to high office. Ditto a lot of Europe. It’s virtually impossible in the States.
Give me Europe every time.
Treachery exists also
U.S.A. for me too! and then I would have had the right to shoot that oxygen thief who pulled a knife on me!
Fire Force sums it up for me.
If I get a gun out to someone who trespasses on my land in the UK it will be me that gets arrested. If I shoot or injure and intruder I will go to jail (unless I am a high profile Muslim)
In the US they have a healthy regard for protecting personal property and it is now the only place in the world where you have a right to defend your property and the right to bear arms.
Sure, the whole world is run by shysters, but I prefer American Shysters, that's all.
I voted USA. I love Europe (I was born in Holland and lived in the UK for ages) but having spent almost half my life in America I do think Britain has more kinship with its old enemy than its new friends over in Brussels. I love the idea of an alliance between Northern European states--it's just the idea of a central European government that jars.
And Simon Gardner: I know it gets very frustrating with many Americans appearing to be religious to the point of extremism, but there is NO way you can compare their attitudes (except perhaos those of some sects in Utah and Texas) to those of extreme Islamists. And just as a Muslim praying on a rug to Allah does not constitute terrorism, a Texan saying "one nation under God" does not constitute fundamentalism. Please remember that whatever one head of state or another says about who wanted him to be President, it was America that first legislatively separated Church and State, while in Germany there remains a publicly paid tithe to church as part of the tax system.
That said, of course it's great that many opinions--including atheism--are welcome in Europe, and it is a shame that they are frowned on and often excluded in the US. But times are always changing, and no matter how much you may dislike the America of the past eight years, it still remains one of the freest nations in the world.
QED.
R. Blake said... “I know it gets very frustrating with many Americans appearing to be religious to the point of extremism, but there is NO way you can compare their attitudes (except perhaos those of some sects in Utah and Texas) to those of extreme Islamists.”
I don’t think I said “extreme Islamists”; in fact I’m sure I didn’t. The joke is that the Islamists and very large numbers of Americans are indistinguishable in their nuttiness. I can never quite understand why they don’t realise how similar they are to each other.
The thing is, we have a common language, but our cultures are vastly different and this [the lunatic god-bothery] is just one major example. We have much more in common with Northern Europeans (including the French) than ever we do with the Mid West. It’s just the language thing.
If you’re going to pick a sub-set of British society which might identify more with Americans, then clearly it would be bright-eyed Tories (and Gordon Brown) but for everyone else, they are alien. This despite the saturation of our culture with things like American TV.
The one thing I admire and would want to emulate is American freedom of speech principles which we would do well to adopt.
Point conceded that demagogues are demagogues wherever you are. However, first of all an Islamist (as opposed to just a very cultural Muslim) is generally extreme--for an example, even a traditionalist American Christian would not, aside from the radical sects, dream of creating a complete theocracy here with the Bible the word-for-word law of the land. There is a difference between an evangelical who thinks Christians go to Heaven and everyone else to Hell and an Islamist who wants Islam to conquer the world, and there are far more of the latter than the former. Also, I've found, living in America, that while faith pervades many areas of life--some that it doesn't need to--the nation and its people is not defined by the loudest religion present. I sincerely hope the UK will not be defined by it's loudest!
I still think that while the UK might feel geographically more at home in a Northern European coalition, a United States of Europe created at this time would no doubt bear the less desirable hallmarks of the EU: well intentioned, undemocratic procedures and a certain lack of appreciation for the rights of the individual. Although I also have a hard time envisioning Britain as a US state (and I am sure many people in the UK would balk at some of the laws here, and vice versa), it is a fact that Britain gave a great deal to American culture and philosophy--I don't even need to mention the likes of the great Thomas Paine here--and still has many things in common with the US.
As for the bright-eyed Tories comment (I will kindly overlook the Gordon Brown addition), I can say that there are plenty of conservatives over here (America) who could learn a little about true conservatism from the Cameroons. In turn, perhaps the UK might think about a written Bill of Rights, as you referred to with regards to free speech (something I agree with entirely).
Always good to debate.
Well seeing as I'm already American thre's no real benefit for me voting USA. But for you?
1) Britain will get US Immigration & Border patrol, thus keeping the terrorists out.
2) The federal income tax band for people earning $100K is 28% not 40%.
3) No national ID cards or register.
4) Freedom of speech, of association, of the press.
5) A properly elected upper house.
6) Elected mayors, sherrifs, distrcict attorneys, judges. ie the police and prosectors directly answerable to the people.
and on and on and on ....
of course, we may not let you join!
Thank you, Dual Citizen--I couldn't have put it better myself!
Except that the US would get excellent soccer and Boris Johnson could run for president.
@R Blake
Except that the US would get excellent soccer and Boris Johnson could run for president.
Yes but Gordon Brown couldn't have become Governor of Britain without facing an election.
"Yes but Gordon Brown couldn't have become Governor of Britain without facing an election."
Surely you mean "insurrection"!?
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