Sunday, February 04, 2007
Teacher Sacked for Saying "Most Suicide Bombers are Muslims"
"Most suicide bombers are muslim". Is that a controversial thing to say? I'd have thought it was a statement of fact, yet a secondary school teacher has lost his job for uttering those words to a class of twelve year olds in Slough. He wasn't even given the chance to defend himself and was asked to leave because the "pupils were upset". More details HERE. Make sure you watch the accompaying video and make your own mind up as to whether it is actually the Deputy Head who should be sacked from his position rather than the teacher. If I were a school governor there, I would be less than impressed.
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108 comments:
You can't just "be sacked" surely. Let's hope for a nice long drawn-out employment tribunal to sort things out.
What would your reaction have been if he'd said that most paedophiles are homosexuals?
The teacher was wrong to say most suicide bombers are muslims. ALL suicide bombers are muslims. No one else thinks a killing oneself in the commission of murder is a ticket to that great brothel in the sky. Just the muslims. We mustn't mislead the children.
However, I hope the sacked teacher, a man of unusual courage in these parlous times, gets around £1m from the LEA.
anonymous. Pathetic. Really pathetic. Can you name me any suicide bombers in recent memory who have not been muslims? Then ask yourself the same question about paedophiles and homosexuals. Then you will have your answer.
Depends which part of the world you mean in, and what timeframe you're talking about here.
The most amount of sucide bombers have actually been Sri Lankan, and have killed the most amount of people.
Sri Lankan muslims.
Anonymous 4:24 - Didn't your mother teach you that abusing people's hospitality is crude?
I see £££ before my eyes ,some money to make there
The Black Tiger suicide missions were generally performed by people of a hindu tradition against Buddhists.
Well clearly I hit a nerve. The point is that comments like these, whilst perhaps factual, can lead to unsound conclusions. For example, it is true that the majority of suicide bombers are Muslims, it is not true to say that most Muslims are suicide bombers, though the use of language could suggest this to impressionable minds (ie 12 year olds).
The gay men/paedophile thing is the same as above. Malicious groups try to equate homosexuality with paedophilia. Again, this could lead to prejudices being formed in young minds. It is a classic tactic of hate groups and whilst perhaps not deliberately used by this teacher the fact still stands.
I apologise if my first post offended you Iain but, as I'm sure is clear from my above comments, it is certainly not my own point of view. And it did make you respond to one of my posts personally for the first time ever so it got your attention ;)
'Most suicide bombers are Muslims'
'You are a Muslim'
'Therefore you are a suicide bomber'
That is how school kids think Iain.
He was rightly sacked.
Dhanraj 4.57 left the last comment.
I couldn't log in! So signed in as Anon.
Well the Tamil Tigers are perhaps the more recent non-exclusively Islamic suicide bombers, but then we aren't talking in the context of suicide bombing over the course of history- the teacher's assertion relates to current climes.
One thing that I was quite irked about was that the reporter in the video kept making references to 'racism' (ie, "are you a racist?"). A five-year old could have run circles round questioning like that.
Anonymong, you're banging a fallacious myth- all the gays I know like a bit of length. Children are the least of their considerations...
Putting the rights and wrongs of the statement to one side shouldn't we be asking WTF is a teacher discussing suicide bombers with 12 year olds?
Anoonymous 4:57 - Yes. You hit a nerve because you manufactured a gratuitous insult that was irrelevant to Iain's post.
The teacher was talking about organised suicide bombers in the context of today's geopolitical situation. Suicide bombing by muslims is an international problem. All these outrages worldwide are committed buy one group of coordinated people.
As to your excuse for a climbdown, it was pathetic. The teacher didn't say most muslims are suicide bombers. I hope 12 year olds, even in the British educational system, would not make such a fanciful connection.
Iain 4:29, personally I have always thought that contrary to gay propaganda, the great majority of peadophiles abusing boys are homosexuals. Do you have any case that they are heterosexuals? I think not. From everyday conversation with gay men I have also long concluded that most gay men are strongly pulled to abuse young males under the age of 16, in a much bigger percentage than heterosexual men are pulled towards girls below the age of consent. I think this follows logically from the reason why many gay men are homosexual; abuse directed at them by men during childhood. It's surprisingly common!
Almost all members of the BNP are white.....
This doesn't mean that white people are bad. Unless you write for the Guardian.
All ethnic/racial groups have their own varient of this kind of crap. read up on the Japaenese Zen Buddist masters and their behaviour around WWII.....
I get very upset when Guardian columnsists imply that all English people are instinctively racists. Can I get them fired please? I feel racially abused....
As the poster of the 4.24 and 4.57 posts which started this strand of discussion, I'd like to say that I totally disagree and am disgusted by the anon post at 5.15.
Verity - given the quality of all the posts I've ever read by you, I'm not going to waste my time responding to you. You once said yourself that you're not all that bright, and you seem to go out of your way to provide evidence of this.
I am astonished that a deputy head master of a school can cite "upsetting pupils" as a reason for dismissal. No doubt it would be equally "upsetting" to his Muslim children to be shown where Israel is on a map. One wonders just exactly what is being taught in that school.
Note also that the BBC did not link to that story from any front page, not England or even the Education front page, even though I think any objective journalist would class it as an important story.
I can't locate the school website for this school to make a complaint - does anyone know what it is?
pinko claptrap
Surely the point is that the teacher was correct?
As for 12-year olds being impressionable, that's very much a modern day invention. For example, Nelson was 12yrs old when he became an ordinary seaman and coxswain. The leftists want the population in (state sponsored) 'educayshun' for as long as possible to keep the drip drip drip of Socialisr claptrap going into their heads.
The world-leader in suicide terrorism is the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka and this group has a Marxist/Leninist ideology. (Reference - Robert A. Pape, ‘The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism’, American Political Science Review, Vol. 97:3, August, 2003, p343).
Though although the teacher was wrong I do think it was a grotesque over-reaction by the school to sack the teacher.
@Anonymous 5:20
Hey, can I sign up to that please!
I'd also like to hire a human rights lawyer to fight for damages as someone who is 'upset' by the constant and harrowing accusations of being part of an 'institutionally racist' society.
Think Cherie will take it on?, she's going to need a few bob for the train journeys to Dartmoor - or would he get put in the Tower?
Whatever Iain may or may not be, at least he has the courage to identify himself and his comments.
It is very easy for us at this side to have little digs at him, hiding behind our assumed identities or even more so remaining anonymous.
How many brave comments would there be if we had to identify ourselves properly.
@pjbowles5:
Marxist/Leninism - Another nihilistic mindset...
In terms of numbers the greatest perpetrators of suicide attacks come from the insect kingdom. Namely the western Honeybee.
They are a greater fan of suicide than any modern day Islamic terrorists.
Aside.. Schools should be less worried about causing offense when trying to educate..soon there will be little left on the curriculum if every part of history is censored.
The difference between "anonymous" and "someone called realist or verity" doesn't seem much to me as a casual observer - what's the difference exactly? Everyone on a blog is anon unless they use their real name which to be fair to Iain he does.
I don't totally disagree about the gay abuse of young boys thing - I have a friend who is a serving senior police detective in the North of England who has investigated many peadophile offences. He is convinced that many or even most gay men are secret abusers. Not very PC I know, but if this isn't true, why all the catholic priest scandals for example? Are catholic gays genetically different in some way?
Teachers are bound by the same employment laws as everyone else. 'Upsetting the pupils' is not an offence in Law.
The Governing Body should be holding an enquiry into how this mess has arisen. If the story is as reported it's clear that the Deputy(?) Head has overstepped the mark in a big way - and should be dismissed or at least severely reprimanded. Teachers are employed by the Local Education Authority, not by the school. So the LEA should have been consulted, anyway.
If I was the Chair of Governors (and I have been so for a couple of schools and many years) I would be having an 'intense' discussion with the school management and with the County authorities. This smacks of managerial incompetence at all levels.
It should be noted he was a supply teacher rather than a full-time one.
"What would your reaction have been if he'd said that most paedophiles are homosexuals? "
That he'd just be plain wrong. Most paedophiles are very heterosexual. They are just warped heterosexuals.
Well there's multicuterism for you.
It just don't work, and that's the end of it.
Bloody religion!!!
All of them.
The teracher was just plain wrong. most sduicide bombers THINK they are Muslims. But their actions are directly contrary to Muslim teaching.
Anon 6:12, you are probably right, but that is for sure not the reason the pupils object; we know from polls that most young muslims have strong sympathy with suicide bombers, supported 9/11 and 7/7, hate the British way of life, want Sharia Law and despise this country. They do however want to keep their Nike trainers and get well-paid (British) jobs. Oh and they definately wouldn't want to live in an actual Muslim country.
As a supply teacher on a day to day contract it is unlikely that he has any right to go to an Employment Tribunal.
I was staggered by the Deputy Head's comment about what the pupil's thought and felt. 12 year olds are now the arbitors of what can be said in the classroom.
Certainly the Governors and the Local Authority investigate this matter asap.
I’ll probably be criticised for saying it, but what on earth is happening in our schools today. As far as I am aware, this is a normal state Secondary school in Slough and not a public or private school. In this case why are Muslims calling the tune over a teacher stating the obvious. Upset! ….show me any normal kid of 12 that would be upset by a statement of fact. Maybe “angered” would be a more fitting expression, and we can probably associate that with the crazy indoctrination of their young minds by the mad Imams. Reading the story I see that the majority of pupils are Muslims and I wonder how that can be allowed to happen. This also raises the question about what level of interference Muslims have in the running of a school in what is ostensibly a Christian country. The other thing that springs to mind is the general teaching staff and if they are also a Muslim majority. If the latter is true then I have a great fear that the school could be yet another exclusion zone. So much for integration!
The UK really has to change direction away from the idea of integration and start taking control of its schools and institutions instead of allowing minorities to dictate policies at lower levels. It might not be so very democratic, but it certainly makes sense.
It annoyed me also to see a link on this page regarding a complaint from Muslims about time for prayers during the school day. As the daily school assembly with prayers was abolished 30 years ago in our schools, maybe they should be politely told to forget it!
Reading between the lines on this story, I wonder if the teachers at that school are afraid of the Muslim parents?
From one of the many anonymous posters:
I have a friend who is a serving senior police detective in the North of England who has investigated many peadophile offences. He is convinced that many or even most gay men are secret abusers. Not very PC I know
It wasn't the teacher who ought to be sacked; it's your mate the utterly f*cked up and clueless copper.
Someone is organising some sort of semi-decreed homophobic smearing on Tory blogsites. This is the second one in a week that I've been reading more or less randomly, only in order to come across this sort of nonsensical anti-gay drivel.
Can I put in a word for Shinto suicide bombers? Weren't the kamikaze who crashed their planes into American and British ships committing suicide in this way? Of course their suicide was an act of "legitimate" war, but they were still bombers, still committing suicide, so qualify as non-Muslim suicide bombers I think.
Oh, sorry, now I think about it I also recall German suicide bombers. Nazi bigwigs prepared a list of 15,000 Germans who were prepared to commit suicide in piloted V1s to stop the Allied advance into Germany. The idea was never put into effect, because Hitler (yes, Hitler) found it distasteful. Again, though, it was an act of just-about legitimate war, and a far cry from blowing up innocent civilians on public transport in a time of peace.
Could all you anonymouses making pie-eyed remarks about paedophiles please learn to spell paedophile? Personally, I cannot give credence to the opinions of those who cannot spell what their subject - not to say obsession - is about.
The vast majority of paedophiles are of the Gary Glitter variety. Little girls. Not "girls just below the age of consent". Infant girls.
A thought ... if most of the pupils at the school are muslim (which should not have been allowed to happen anyway) can we infer that the Deputy Head who dismissed the teacher for telling the truth is also a muslim?
If not, another poster asks whether the teachers at the school are afraid of the muslim parents. You had to ask?
Anonymous 6:12 The teacher was just plain wrong. most sduicide bombers THINK they are Muslims. But their actions are directly contrary to Muslim teaching.
Incorrect. Read the koran. There is no higher cause than either converting or defeating the infidel. Killing to spread islam is what gets you the swipe card into the brothel and the 72 retread virgins.
Kamikaze pilots weren't suicide bombers. They were in a declared war and they crashed their planes on their targets. (Why did they wear safety helmets, by the way?)
Iain, I do think it has come to the point where you should not accept any more anonymous posts, and I have mixed views on on pseudonyms for that matter. If posters are not willing to put their name to their remarks, then they really aren't worth reading.
Regarding the original point, the teacher is wrong. There were examples of suicide bombings by Christian navies during the crusades, and similarly during the Belgian Rebvolution, by Prussian soldiers in the nineteenth century, in the assassination of Tsar Alexander II, Japanese kamikaze pilots and mini-subriners in WWII, German Luftwaffe pilots on missions against Russian bridges, Vietnamese death volunteers acting against the French, and by the Japanese Red Army (who taught the PFLP, who became Hezbollah), and of course the Tamil Tigers, various militant groups in Lebanon in the 1980s, the Iranian army in the war against Iraq, and the more recent groups in Palestine and the various bombers linked to al-Queda, the latter being muslims (or strictly speaking ex-muslims).
This is hardly a sacking offence, but are we moving into a world of thoughtcrime?
"what is ostensibly a Christian country."
No, GDubbya's writ doesn't QUITE run here. (yet)
Interestingly, arguably the first suicide bombers (with a bit of the national lottery thrown in) were the WW2 UK and US daylight bombers over Germany, who massacred hundreds of thousands of 'innocent' German civilians. Until the supplies for the Ack Ack guns ran out, the attrition right was quite phenomenal.
The head may or not be correct but the teacher is a contractor with probably a hours notice so bye bye
"There is no higher cause than either converting or defeating the infidel."
aAd suicide bombing civilians does none of this. So it's anti-Islamic. There's plenty against killing in Islam. And indeed in Christianity, though that's never stopped Christians from getting into a good massacre when it suited them (especially when it's other Christians being masacred!)
The Koran, just like the Bible, is full of contradictions. Do adult humans really believe any of this stuff? No, that's not an argument for atheist suicide bombers!
7:20 PM
Please remind yourself that this country was bombed by Germany ,I know as I have three civilian relatives honoured on the CWGC rolls
"He was rightly sacked.
4:57 PM
Anonymous said...
Dhanraj 4.57 left the last comment.
I couldn't log in! So signed in as Anon."
As always Dhanjaj, I'm not surprised by your (the muslim community's) hypocrisy, double standards and the whining, self-pitying tone you display when in front of a BBC microphone.
Reverse this situation into a Muslim teacher in Pakistan, Saudi, Iraq or Iran insulting Christians -- then ask yourself whether they would be fired, or promoted.
Don't affect to be surprised or "saddened" when people insult your murderous, morally bankrupt religion, Dhanraj. Bottom line, the Chinese, Sikh, Hindu, Buddhist communities aren't trying to murder their fellow citizens. The Muslim community is.
anonybore 7:20 "Interestingly, arguably the first suicide bombers (with a bit of the national lottery thrown in) were the WW2 UK and US daylight bombers over Germany,".
Neither interesting nor arguable. Stop trying to weaken the argument. The only people committing suicidal acts of terror against innocent civilians are islamics and they do it because their imams and their koran tells them to. WWII was a declared war with professional combatants, you pretentious lightweight.
Indeed Verity. In your own words you are neither interesting nor arguable. Now go and put the peas on dear.
"you pretentious lightweight."
Does that allusion mean Verity is a fat feminist?
I thought that *ALL* suicide bombers were muslims.
No can do, anonybore 8:17. Can't cook. It's so hard to patronise a woman you don't know, isn't it?
anonybore 8:20. Lightweight refers, needless to say, to your thistledown intellect, not avoirdupois. Funny how inadeqate men can't debate with a woman without adopting a patronising, insulting, very personal tone. Even towards women they've never seen. I am sick of all the personal insults directed not at my posts, but at me as a woman, by insecure, vicious men. Two can play at that game and trust me, you cannot win.
anonybore 8:45 - "I thought that *ALL* suicide bombers were muslims." You thought right. Present conditional. Correct. All suicide bombers are muslims.
OK, to be a suicide bomber, you have to take a mission where your death is expected. While most airmen during WWII suffered a high attrition rate, a great value was placed upon their lives and they would make superhuman efforts to get home. I'd also concur that it was a declared war between recognised combatants - not a terrorist, asymmetrical conflict.
In modern terms, the greatest use of suicide bombers has been by the Tamil Tigers - as somebody has pointed out, these base their ideology in Marxist Leninism and draw their members from the Hindu tradition. Many of the Hamas suicide bombers have been Christian - the figures suggest over two thirds, historically.
So, the teacher is factually incorrect. As to his dismissal, he is a supply teacher, so gets no protection from dismissal. As it happens, I think that the school may have overstepped the mark - but I'd like to know more about the case. Perhaps it is a little peculiar that those free-market Tories get all self-righteous about employment rights only when it suits.
things here.
First, Anon 4:57 came up with this piece of absolute tripe...
"'Most suicide bombers are Muslims'
'You are a Muslim'
'Therefore you are a suicide bomber'
That is how school kids think Iain.
He was rightly sacked"
Personally I think 12 year olds should be aware of the complete breakdown of Aristolean logic in this piece of drivel. Anon seems to think that muslim schoolchildren should be protected from having to think logically. Most odd.
Secondly, I gather from the BBC clip Mr McLuskey is a former NUT officer, and for that reason alone deserves to be sacked.
Anonymous said...
"you pretentious lightweight."
Does that allusion mean Verity is a fat feminist?
8:20 PM
Is there any evidence that Verity is female? Many of 'her' posts seem like a male is writing.
towcestarian has missed the point, it's not Muslim kids who need to be protected from thinking that THEY'RE suicide bombers. It's the other kids who might make the faulty conclusion that "someone who's a Muslim is a suicide bomber".
anonymous 10:05 "It's the other kids who might make the faulty conclusion that "someone who's a Muslim is a suicide bomber"."
The teacher made a statement of fact. He presumably opened the floor to discussion. Or they were already in the middle of a discussion when this statement came up. Indigenous children having the misfortune to live in an immigrant muslim catchment will be aware that not all muslims are suicide bombers.
I think the deputy head is either a muslim or he is frightened of muslim parents. Perhaps he thinks some of the big brothers are putative suicide bombers and he wanted to send a message that the thought had never crossed his mind.
So you can now not tell the truth in Blairs Btitain.
You could not make it up.
Verity - we've actually already established that what the teacher said was untrue. I wonder how many times you have to be told this before it sinks in?
Iain, isn't it about time you put a stop to Anonymous posts?
anonybore 10:37. Failed reading comprehension at school, did we?
"Verity - we've actually already established that what the teacher said was untrue." Incorrect. The teacher was speaking in the present tense. The present tense means the world of the here and now. Not WWII kamikaze pilots or impulsive zen monks, or other people given to committing surprising actions. Not even the Tamil Tigers.
Self-detonators as we refer to them today, not back when you were a duffer in school, are people who people who explode themselves in order to kill as many "infidels" (aka sane people) as possible because they have determined that that is what their crackpot diety thinks is a good idea. Suicide bombers get fast-tracked into the celestial brothel. (Did you know the virgins are retreads, byw? With allah, all things are possible.)
The intention of suicide bombers, in other words, is to kill as many infidels as they can. That is what we understand by suicide bombers.
Given the tone of a lot of the anonymous posts, why do I think that Tim "Interesting" Ireland has gone into stealth mode?
I wonder, was this the notorious school where the day after 9/11 the pupils arrived cheering and punching the air in triumph?
I'm quite certain that the little 12 year old stool pigeons who shopped the teacher have a well-developed sense of victimhood, which has been nurtured from birth. This would have been honed and polished by that slimy-looking creep of a deputy head.
The problem with the statement Iain is that most suicide bombers are Tamil Tigers who are not now nor have ever been muslim. It is incorrect.
And that is without getting into the semantics of whether or not such an act is Islamic or not.
I do note Verity's lack of education on isurgency tactics used by non muslims. ho mum.
So Iain, would you want to have your kids or any one elses taught by someone who did not have the first clue about suicide bombing, but felt in a position to make such a statement?
Iain, No I can't name any non muslim suicide bombers because killing people in Sri Lanka is not news worthy here. The Tamil Tigers have been using this tactic for over 20 years and still are.
Veruty, No Sri Lanka is either Bhudist or Hindu, though Tamil Tigers are I think communist aethists.
Nice to know you think they are Muslims though. Your education is realy showing through there.
I truly believe there is nothing wrong with using a pseudonym is posts providing it is consistent. I do not, however, believe that the "Anonymous" tag should be allowed for the simple reason that anyone who whacks the send-button without entering their name is posted as "Anonymous" and there are too many of the buggers to know exactly who, or what, you are answering to. It many cases it is probably sheer bloody idleness, but I suspect that most believe it makes them untraceable....like someone working at Number 10 ???
Hmm..if he said 'most moslems are suicide bombers' this would be understandable, but this does seem a harsh infringement of freedom of speech. However, I would expect him to have put it into context with the background.
Mark Williams,, the PFLP who became Hezboulah? Are you serious? The Popular Front for the Liberation fo Palestine have nothing at all to do with Hezboulah. Amal members may well have split away to form Hezboulah, but not any of Gorge habash's mob.
Some posters have said it was right for this man to have been sacked.
My concern is, what if he had used the phrase 'Many suicide bombers are Muslims'. Would that have been okay?
Well the difficulty is that if one is not okay, and the other is, how does one know whether one would lose their job or not for using the phrase,
'A majority of suicide bombers are muslims'. This is synonymous with the first phrase, but possibly less 'loaded'. But one shouldn't have to guess what someone else might read into a statement to know if one is going to be hauled over the coals.
Whilst I think it is important that we respect each other, the idea of one person taking offence being allowed to determine whether a hate crime has occurred seems irrational.
Have any of the posters on here actually watched the video of the interview with the teacher as Iain suggested? It makes clear that the topic arose during a discussion about the advantages and disadvantages of religion where one of the pupils had suggested suicide bombing as one of the disadvantages. Hopefully that answers Graham E's point at 5:12 p.m.
It is not clear exactly what he did say in response but I suspect that he may have been trying to make the point that suicide bombing doesn't feature in most religions at all.
Finally, the video raises the point that the pupils may have reported him in revenge for being told off for something else.
verity "The only people committing suicidal acts of terror against innocent civilians are islamics and they do it because their imams and their koran tells them to."
Your ignorance knows no bounds. It is like a bottomless pit.
So many people here have pointed out that over half of all the words suicide bombers are Tamil Tigers who are Hindu by tradition but atheist Marxists and yet you continue to pedal your absolute ignorance. And yes they are still at it in Sri Lanka!
Just wher were you hiding when God gave out the brains? Or can you only selectivly read?
Verity, If we ar talking of the last month, then yes Tamil tiger suicide bomber are out numbered by "Muslim ones". If we are talking the last 10 or 20 years then no they are not.
I note your absolute ignorance.It is impressive. And you acuse others of being lightweight? Wow!
As always with these affairs there is a sub-text.
In this case it is: young black liberal deputy head against old fart Christian (with no legal leg to stand on, tyrannised by vengeful 12 year-olds who couldn't manage to get him on a molesting charge.
Since there is no clarity on what was actually said, and in what context, that part is irrelevant.
What is relevant is that this kind of victimisation, of older white Christian men is now apparently ok.
No doubt, had he been gay, or black, or a muslim, a similar comment would have been applauded.
In this era, the BBC can be "hideously white". The Gay Police Association can openly promote religious hatred and Men can be incarcerated on the word of any woman who cries rape (under a cloak of anonymity). Muslims can openly call for the overthrow of our laws and cry "victim" every time one of them is arrested.
Strange, that, since all suicide bombers ARE Muslims, and now, Muslims ARE the ones killing each other in Palestine, Baghdad, Lebanon, Afghanistan......
I agree with Vienna Woods. Those of us who use a real nomme de guerre (yes, yes, I know) establish a coherent identity and we are easy for other commentators to respond to.
Anonybore 11:15 - You say it is important "that we respect one another". Well, yes and no. You cannot legislate respect any more than you can legislate love. Thus, I would say it is important that we behave in a manner that allows other people to assume that we're worth respecting. This is wired into the human race. We do it automatically, except for people who are somehow disconnected from the mains.
However, the notion that a "hate crime" has been committed if one person takes offence has been written into British law. I don't know how you missed it. It was much discussed by the commentariat, but hammered through anyway.
(I think Levy is getting ready to hand Tone over to Scotland Yard. He has announced he's not "going to swing" for anyone."
This gives me such a warm glow.
The problem with just using a name is that it's easy to copy. Doesn't seem a great deal different to just going anon.
Benedict White: Sorry that should be PFLP-GC (recognised as a terrorist organisation by the US and the EU) not the political organisation PFLP.
I agree, verity, anyone can copy our names, maybe we should stop pretending that our opinions are more valid than the anons?
Nobody, "Strange, that, since all suicide bombers ARE Muslims, and now, Muslims ARE the ones killing each other in Palestine, Baghdad, Lebanon, Afghanistan."
Are you trying to be more ignorant than Verity?
Most suicide bombers are inb fact Tamil Tigers, which has already been stated many times by many people.
Furthermore, the Lebanon has a lrge number of Christians in it, and whilst it has not actualy flared into civil war, if it did it would be much more complicated than your ignorance suggests.
Mark, the PFLP-GC is Gorge habash's mob (Christian by birth atheist by politics) and regardless of whether the carried out suicide bombings (I had not heard that) or missions with such a low survivability rate they were suicidal, they having nothing to do with Hezboulah who are not atheist marxists of Palestinian extarction but Shia Muslims of Lebonease extraction.
Benedict White, of the First Order of The Anorak, says: "Verity, If we ar talking of the last month, then yes Tamil tiger suicide bomber are out numbered by "Muslim ones". If we are talking the last 10 or 20 years then no they are not."
The clue is in the word "are".
This refers to the present tense in the English language. Currently speaking, meaning NOW, suicide bombers - i.e., islamic young men with fevered brains that have been pumped up since they were two years of age - who are bombing their way into the great brothel in the sky (they can drink wine there, too! Hey! What's not to die for?)are muslims. We are talking of NOW. Not 20 or 30 years ago. Not WWII. NOW.
Verity, I know you struggle with thoughts, but by now do you mean say between midnight and now, in which case there are no suicide bombers, or do you mean in the last 5 days, in which case I have not checked the Sri Lankan news services so would accept that the majority were "Muslim" but not all, or the last month, in which case I have heard os suicide bombings in Sri Lanka.
Certainly in the last 5 years "Muslim" ones have been trying to catch up, but the Tamil Tigers have a 20 year head start and are still at it. Today. In the HERE AND NOW.
verity dijo...
The problem with just using a name is that it's easy to copy. Doesn't seem a great deal different to just going anon.
12:18 AM
The above wasn't me, Iain. Trolls are going to spoil civilised and interested debate for everyone. Why is your site suddenly flooded with trolls? It's not possible to engage with other people in this malign atmosphere.
Getting back to the topic, I wondered if anyone had read this BBC News report? I found the two sentences just above the subtitle "Extreme views" particularly illuminating. It raises the question, just who is she so afraid of? If you think about it, by saying this, the woman has in fact said far more than anything else she declined to say!
i really dont get this. in regards to the news going nowadays, what the teacher is saying is factually correct - and indeed, it is a good stepping off point for a discussion on matters of religion - the incident occured during a religious education lesson.
would Irish pupils have been upset 20 years ago by a teacher saying that "most IRA are Irish Catholics" or "most UDA members are Protestant?" i dont think so - because that was the reality. it is a statement of fact.
for Muslim pupils to be upset at the teachers statement shows a collective hand in the sand attitude, no doubt instilled by their parents, wherein in their worldwide, none of the Iraq suicide bombs are being done by Jihadists - they are all staged Zionist attacks aided by the Americans. Its a collective act of denial that really does remind me of what the average German thought during the holocaust - the "Hitler doesnt know about this" excuse..
and sadly, i dont think that denial is being challenged - and when it is, by this teacher, he gets sacked.
what lesson does that send out?
mister scruff, If you had said most members of the IRA were Catholic that is correct, but had it been said that most terrorists were Catholic that would be wrong, Very wrong. (Same true, with UDA/Protestants)
Most suicide bombers are not Muslim. Most, in fact I suspect all in Iraq, Israel/Palestine, Afghanistan are, but not worldwide.
Most suicide bombers who are "Muslim" kill mostly Muslims.
"ALL suicide bombers are muslims" IS what the teacher said, verity 4:27. Or at least among the things that he is alleged to have said. And he may well have used other forms of words that were worse. I don't suppose there is a tape of the lesson. There is certainly not enough in the BBC text or accompanying VT to know what happened.
But this supply teacher did assert that being a Christian he couldn't possibly be racist OWTTE.
There is a category error here however as racism is - legally speaking - the wrong box to put this in. Cf the trail of Griffin and Collett.
An important point to make that Iain and this teacher chappie have missed is that most of the time suicide bombers are completely and utterly disowned and abominated by true Islam.
They are not muslims. They affect to be muslims. But they are by their actions ex-muslims. There have been suicide bombers (etc) and war criminals of all sorts of religious allegiance.
As other have pointed out there are the Tamil Tigers. There were the Kamikazes of Japan. Biblical hero Samson whose godliness is celebrated.
But there is simply not enough in the text or tape to determine what has occured in this incident.
But reading between the lines and given this man's blatant Christian self-righteousness on tape I am prepared to countenance the possibility that he did upset a group of muslim 12 year olds, that he was unable to properly control the class (he claims the complainers were trying to get even), and that he was highly dispensible.
If he'd gone into the reporter's school in Ireland and tried "all terrorists are Catholics" etc etc how would he have got on.
More accurate perhaps:
"All suicide bombers are desparate people, some are nihilists, some are mentally ill, some are looking for a place in history, some are aligned with but not close practitioners of their various religions, some are godless communists, some are godless fascists, most are muddled."
Much more accurate (and controversial):
"All American Presidents who have sent high altitude bombers and invading armies to kill in the name of their Imperial Writ claim to be Christians"
dumbass reporting at its finest - have a look at the video. first question asked to the teacher by the beeboid:
"are you racist?"
(i wonder if the teacher was critical of Catholicism would that question have been asked?)
second dumbass is the deputy head - he stated that he responded to the complaints of pupils. so who's running the school?
the pupils it seems.
(Mr Scruff makes a mental note to avoid state schooling in Slough)
"but had it been said that most terrorists were Catholic that would be wrong, Very wrong"
most terrorists on the UK mainland in the 1970s (not northern ireland) were indeed Catholic - as in , the ones bombing England.
in any case, the discussion in question wasnt a lecture - the pupils (according the video) were asked to write an essay on the pros and cons of "religion".
suicide bombing by Muslims was raised by the teacher as a possible "con". the Muslim pupils got into a hissy fit and complained about this.
maybe they were all upset cos they figured that it was a pro. Shaheed, martyrdom and all that...
maybe *thats* the real underlying message of the upset.
Bernard White is wrong, but at least he gives himself a handle and responds to debate with real points.
The anonybores are making scrambled eggs out of this site.
Benedict White: This jihad has been going on for almost forty years. Whatever other inky-dinky suicide nitwits do, the ones who are focussed on destroying our advanced western civilisation (while using the tools we invented; they don't invent too much in the sands of Saudi Arabia) are islamofascists. Killing for a bloodthirsty diety with a paedophile "prophet". Mo' spotted Aisha when she was six and had her hurried to his home. She was taken off the swing she was swinging on and hurried by her mother into mohammad's presence. She was out of breath from running alongside her mother - aged six.
Some readers will have little girls aged six or seven, or nieces, or children who were once six or seven and are now teenagers or adults. Would they have turned this little thing over to a 54 year old man who fancied her? And who had feverish thoughts that he had a hotline to a desert diety?
"They are not muslims. They affect to be muslims. But they are by their actions ex-muslims. There have been suicide bombers (etc) and war criminals of all sorts of religious allegiance."
utter bollocks.
Explain to me all the Hezbollah martyrdom posters in southern Lebanon?
Or the martyrdom brigades that Iran used during the Iran-Iraq war?
Or what about the martyrdom hero worship that Hamas engages in?
Or is Robert Baer, a former CIA operative in the Middle East lying through his teeth during his "Cult of the Suicide Bomber" documentary series?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Baer
mister scruff, Most terrorists in the 1970's were not acting in the UK mainland.
Besides which history so modern is not discussed in schools at all because it is too controversial, so what was the teacher expecting?
As for asking for the pro's and cons of religion in an RE class, again, I am sorry, that has no place in that setting.
RE is suposed to be about teaching about religions, in fact several of them.
Verity, ae you saying that Muslims have been suicide bombing for 40 years, if so you are talking bollocks, the first one was in 1980 in the Iran Iraq war.
Or that people like the Muslim Brotherhood, and Wahbism have been an issue for western civilisation for 40 years, in which case you are also talking bollocks because Wahabism has been around since the 18th Century, and the Muslim brotherhood have been a very active issue since the beginning of the 20th century.
Bythe way, have you withdrawn your ignorant remark that ALL suicide bombers are Muslim?
benedict - in fact , the whole issue could be resolved by having NO religion in state funded schools. i tend to agree with the American and French way of doing this - by keeping state and church separate.
a muddle , like the one we have in Britain, does nobody any favours and is actually counterproductive in the long run.
Absolutely unbelievable that a teacher is sacked for TELLING THE TRUTH. The longer peole deny the truth about MUSLIM suicide bombers due to plitical correctness, the deeper we descend into a country that has been hijacked by the spineless left.
Hold on, Mr Scruff! ""but had it been said that most terrorists were Catholic that would be wrong, Very wrong
"most terrorists on the UK mainland in the 1970s (not northern ireland) were indeed Catholic - as in , the ones bombing England."
Y A W N
Why can't you stick to the topic? Not 'terrorists'. Suicide bombers! Alien suicide bombers in our advanced Western civilisation. All of them using science invented in the West, which must be so deflating to the islamic ego.
White: No. All suicide bombers today are islamics.
I accept that you have some strange emotional connection with islam, and you have more knowledge than most people posting here, but you overscream your case. Islam is the universal problem on planet earth. It has to be wiped out or reformed.
There are people wanting to reform it, but I think it is a hopeless case, unless we are talking about around 50 years. Reformation will come from the superb,intelligent, engaging islamic women - men too, of course, but it is the women who are in the spotlight just now - who are advancing. (When Irshad Manji was asked at a speech in Toronto, "Did the Israelis pay you to write your book?", she shot back, "No, a shekel doesn't buy what it used to.") This is the intelligent, witty engagement that will eventually get islam accepted into the West as a religion, rather than a cult. But it is going to be a long haul. If the islamics want to keep their "religion" viable (in other words, not reclassified as a cult), they will have to engage with the Irshan Manjis and Wafa Sultans. And Ayaan Hirsi Alis.
Benedict White:
From the Wikipedia entry on the PFLP
In the 1970s and 1980s, the group carried out a number of attacks on Israeli soldiers and civilians, and gained notoriety for using spectacular means, such as a hangglider shooting attack across the border with Lebanon. The PFLP-GC has not been involved in major attacks on Israeli targets since the early 1990s, but it has reportedly cooperated with the Hizbullah guerrilla in South Lebanon, in fighting Israel.
verity - "The anonybores are making scrambled eggs out of this site."
And how exactly are you any different? Anyone can use your name, it's not a proper account like others here use.
I think it would have been better to say
"Most suicide bombers are Islamists".
That woudl make a clear distinciton to people born to Muslim parents who end up Muslim from the Fascists.
On the other hand Lord Bonomy the UK judge (well ok then Scottish judge) said in the Milosevic "trial" that fundamentalist Islan did not present a security problem. This despite the "court" having heard evidence that our then friend bin Laden had been welcomed to the Bosnian predident's office.
Roger Thornhill - "I think it would have been better to say
"Most suicide bombers are Islamists".
That woudl make a clear distinciton to people born to Muslim parents who end up Muslim from the Fascists.
This statement tells me you know nothing about islam. Until it undergoes a reformation, and I think it will, eventually, drag itself into the 21st Century, islam is identical to this new made-up, politically correct word, "islamist". You have to stop regarding islam from an advanced Western, ethnocentric point of view.
They believe every single word in the koran was dictated by their god. Therefore, it cannot be changed or modified. It cannot be interpreted by man. It is the truth for all time - despite having been "dictated" 1200 years ago in the Dark Ages. It has served to preserve a primitive, superstitious mindset among its adherents. They still kill apostates, you know.
What many uninformed apologists for islam seem incapable of understanding is, it is all of their duty to make the whole word Dar-es-Salaam. Islamic. They are supposed to accomplish this by persuasion, or at the point of a sword (or suicide bomb). Sometimes, adherents of other religions, or no religion, might be spared provided they pay the jizzya (a tax levied on non-muslims),be subject to certain restrictions on their freedom and acknowledge their status as inferiors. This situation is known as dhimmitude.
How can they be apostates if they were never islamic in the first place? Ah, but they were! You see, everyone is born is muslim. That's the natural state of the world. But you stopped believing. That makes you an apostate, which attracts the death penalty.
See? They've got it all sewn up.
Apologist Bernard White may race in here. He is either a muslim himself or ex-Camel Corps is my guess. (Just a guess.) Either way, at least he knows what he's talking about.
Sorry - a bit off topic. I've never posted before, here or anywhere. I have, however, been reading this and several other blogs regularly, everyday for many months. I read a very wide range of blogs, some Conservative, some not, some political, some not. Of course I agree with a lot of the comments I read, and I disagree with a huge amount too. I have no problem listening to both sides of every argument, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
However, there is just one person who ALWAYS makes my heart sink. I'm not an overly sensitive soul by any means (even the "Hitch" doesn't offend my sensibilities), nor do I care that, more often than not, she has completely opposing views to myself. Never mind that practically everything she spouts is complete rubbish - plenty of others do too.
No, it is the WAY that her comments are written that I find deeply offensive - every word and phrase is laced with hate and spite. There is no respect for any other commentator, just a stream of self-righteous bile. A seemingly never-ending need and desire to ridicule and demean everyone else. I am afraid she gives the impression that she is a complete bitch who doesn't have a good word to say for anyone. Of whom am I talking? Yes, you all guessed already, Verity.
There is a way, you know, of disagreeing with someone, or putting over another point of view, without trying to be just plain nasty. Everyone else seems to manage it, so why not you?
OK, I've said my piece - it's been eating at me for months. Back to you now Verity, do your worst - I am sure you will take great pleasure in ridiculing me as only you know how.
Everything that Verity posts is factually incorrect or irrelevant to the subject in hand.
1) Various rants about the aims of Muslims around the world, the taking over the world shit and various comments about Mohammed being a paedophile, are all completely irrelevant when it comes to quantifying who has committed the most suicide bomb attacks in history. Plus Verity regularly chats about the invalidity of what is written in/or interpreted from the Quaran and then spouts off accusation of paedophilia based on unconfirmed translations about the age of one of his wives “Aisha” and guess from where ..,.yes the dreaded Quaran. Which has been translated to be anything from "6 to 19” by many different and Islamic scholars and non-Islamic historians. But who cares. WHAT HAS THAT GOT TO DO with HOW MANY Muslims in total have carried out SUICIDE BOMB ATTACKS? Tres bizarre.
2) Verity makes many claims about the superiority of western civilizations and technology..ie explosive technology. She has regularly stated that the west hold ownership to the creation of explosives. WRONG again. Gunpowder was the first known chemical explosive and propellant. An early record of gunpowder comes from a Chinese Han era (146 AD). Gunpowder spread to the Arabs in the 13th century. In Europe, the first written mention of the composition of gunpowder in express terms was in Roger Bacon's "De nullitate magiæ" at Oxford in 1216. All this chat about OUR TECHNOLOGY is just plain rubbish. As when she mentions the technology as being ours is she trying to imply that she had something to do with the development and discovery of explosive technology. And btw suicide bombing technology (if you can call it technology..shoving plastic explosives in a belt was invented by Sri Lankens in the 80s idiot). The ARROGANCE is beyond believe. She sits ther at her computer ranting on with such ferocity as if somehow she is an expert on every part of history, science and politics know to mankind.
3) I have also heard the laughable statement that Muslims suicide bombing is the GREATEST THREAT TO PLANET EART. My arse. Terrorist acts perpetrated by Muslims at present account for approximately a few thousand human deaths every year. AIDS alone kills approximately 2-4 millions human lives each year. Heart disease and obesity kills about 200,000 people and this is just in the UK each year compared to the 52 people killed in the London bombing in 2005 and approximately 25 or so British solders in Iraq and Afghanistan by Muslim terrorists in the same year. Natural disaster, the prospect of nuclear war and of course in the Climate Change. The climate is changing. Fact (whether or not you believe it to be caused by mankind or sunspots or some other natural reason) temperature changes will kill millions in the near future. SO get over it and stop this scaremonger’s crap. You give Muslim way too must credit. They pop off a few thousand fellow Muslims a year and couple of hundred non-Muslims…but somehow you have concluded that they greatest threat to planet earth please….by praying, veiling wearing and halal meat and a sectarian violence in the middle east. SO WHAT, that equates to a blip in the global human death rate and threat.
4) AND FINALLY to get to the actual point. Teachers are supposed to teach children the facts in hand not made up history, that teacher is clearly as ignorant as Verity and was attempted to pass on his ignorance to 12 year olds who proved to be smarter than him. Plus he was mean to be teaching RE not history ..which he obvious has little knowledge of. I would sack an illiterate PE teacher if they tried to teach children English grammar incorrectly.
These are the facts
a) Of all time most Suicide bombers have been Tamil Tigers.
b) This Century most Suicide bombers are Tamil Tigers.
c) This decade most suicide bombers have been Tamil Tigers.
d) This year most suicide bombers have been Muslims.
e) This month most suicide bomber shave been Muslim.
f) In the UK ALL suicide bombers have been Muslim.
So to conclude if one was top ask are MOST SUICIDE BOMBERS MUSLIM?…. The correct answer to that question would be No. Tamil tiger out number Muslim suicide bombers.. …but at present some Muslims are having a good go at beating them.
John - I really don't care who hates me, but I'd like to be hated for myself, not for someone's misinterpretation of what I write.
It would never occur to me to claim the West had invented gunpowder, for example. Every skuleboy no it was invented by the Chinese in early AD. (Like the concept of zero, which was more or less simultaneously discovered by the Indians, the Chinese and the Mayans, the discovery predates much of Western civilisation.)
AIDS, natural disasters, road accidents which you cite as killers are not intentional purveyors of death. Suicide bombers are.
The earth is warming by an infinitesimal amount per year. It has warmed and cooled since the beginning of time. It will not warm up enough to "kill millions". Is there any faddish theory you haven't bought into?
Re self-detonating nitwits, we are talking in the here and now. We are talking about the threat of islamic nut jobs all over the world, blowing themselves up to intimidate others - whether in the Philippines, Thailand, Russia, Britain, Western Europe, the United States or Argentina. Self-detonation today is practised solely by islamics. Far from only killing a few thousand people (as though that were not "a few thousand" murders and maimings) but had they not been arrested, they intended to blow up 10 airliners over 10 major American cities. This would have resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths and maimings. It's not for want of trying.
Re Mo's "marriage" to Aisha when she was six and he was 54, is in the koran. He "consumated" the marriage when she was nine. This is why nine is age of consent for marriage to little girls in places like Iran.
You respond to points I never made. At the same time, you appear to be in denial about the current cycle of jihad. (Although you may well be a mohammadan yourself; I don't know.) Read your Daniel Pipes. Read your Irshad Manji and Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Watch Wafa Sultan being interviewed on Al-Jazeera. Hirsi Ali is an apostate. Irshad Manji is a Suni Muslim who wants to see islam have its Reformation moment.
Long streams of irrelevant facts and responding to charges I didn't make do not make rivetting reading.
Where is Benedict White, who argues from a much stronger position?
Do we know the context of the teacher's statement about "most suicide bombers, etc"? What lesson was he taking?
And can I give a shout out to Samson?
He was the first suicide "bomber" that I ever heard of. He pulled the pillars of the temple down and killed himself and the worshippers.
Verily - I don't think anyone is going to mistake you for me.
Why have trolls suddenly infested this site?
Hear, hear.
It seems to me that most of the current hoard of anonymongs are slitherly little NuLabour creeps of the Sion Simon mould, who just can't face the fact that their slimy little sleaze-ridden party is being exposed for what it is, and have no other option left but to vent their childish fury by launching into hilarious tinfoil-hat accusations against Mr Dale. Aaaww, poor little socialist milksops.
May I just add a note of appreciation for Verity's postings: always compelling and succinct, & as far as I am concerned, RIGHT. So her name is appropriate.
Some people have Tamil Tigers on the brain.
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