Isn't it odd how politicians sometimes get amnesia. Ten years ago, Gordon Brown was quite happy to associate with Scottish Nationalists (see pic taken in 1997) in order to gain support for Scottish devolution. Now he slags them off. I think they call it 'joined up government'.
Sunday, January 14, 2007
Gordon Brown's Nationalist Amnesia
Isn't it odd how politicians sometimes get amnesia. Ten years ago, Gordon Brown was quite happy to associate with Scottish Nationalists (see pic taken in 1997) in order to gain support for Scottish devolution. Now he slags them off. I think they call it 'joined up government'.
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And Tories slagged off the Scottish parliament they now desperately seek seats in. I think they call that get stuffed in a referendum.
Yup, fair point!
There is a difference Iain... cheap.
Selective memory indeed, which will do nothing to plug the democratic and constitutional deficit between England and Scotland which Gordo had a direct hand in creating.
Gordon Brown will manage, not lead.
Do we need a PM who can't take or accept any responsibility for their own actions in the present political climate?
I know we have had Tony Blair doing just that for 10 years, but do we have the stomach for another Labour PM who wants to absolve himself of any involvement or blame. Will the voters develop collective anmesia and forget Brown's part in the present leaderships decisions, while he neatly tries to blame it all on the tories again.
It is not just Brown's nationalist amnesia that is the problem, he really seems to think he can wipe the slate clean and start off unelected by the Labour party or the country, as a nice new shiny PM with principles and a high morale standing!
Someone tell him that it is actions not words, myths, ambition or just vanishing when the going gets tough which helps you develop principles or morales.
An Englishman, an Irish man, a Scotsman, and a Welshman all walk into a doctors office. The doctor says, you all have cancer, but the good news is that Gordon Brown gives higher funding to the NHS in Scotland, Wales and NIreland, so you will be given the necessary drugs for free. You three will live. To the Englishman he says, the English NHS does not get enough funding to provide the same life saving drugs as the other countries in the UK get, so you will die. But Gordon Brown wants to let you know that he appreciates your sacrifice and don't forget to let your family know he wants his share of your estate when you die. The Scots are not cheap in the Union, you know.
www.eutruth.org.uk
www.british-irishencounter.org.uk
Tho sites two visit for all English men and women no matter the colour of their skin or religion, that is if you wish to find out about some of the traitors who think they have enflicted a political genocide on the English people.
Are you getting confused between devolution and independence?
Iain, last night I saw The Trial of Tony Blair - broadcast tomorrow night. Gordon Brown is played as a cartoon Scot, brooding, drinking whisky and accompanied by bagpipe music on the sound track. This is broad satire bit it indicates the way he is generally perceived as VERY Scottish - the gag wouldn't work otherwise. The English see him - whether nice or nasty - as an alien.His best bet is to join the Scot Nats. It's his best chance of running a country for any length of time.
Is it any worse than pledges given in a leadership campaign and then ratted on?
Anon. 1.02 I disagree with our mighty host your remark is fatuous . Of course they want seats in it . They have no choice.The terms in which they "slagged off " the Scottish parliament have been proved entirely correct. It has ended the Union.
I read Gordon Browns not unpredictable defence of the Union with my jaw in the fully dropped position . It is rare that such flagrant opportunism has swaggered onto the political stage in the attire of principle. A dose of mendacious quasi-Unionism was inevitable but when it shot up it was like the biggest firework in the show .Ooooo ahhahhh.
The Conservative party is not against the Union the devolution was encouraged the Labour Party in order , it thought , to shore up its position North of the Border. The Scots living in England were not consulted . Gordon brown thought , so he said , that the regionalisation of England , another foul attack on this country , could be set against the creation of an independent parliament but inevitably has taken Scotland in its own direction. The Conservative Party and the English are only reacting to the clear disparity between the value of the English votes and Scottish votes. Additionally the endless poison squeezed out by the two faced Alec Salmon has intentionally sped the process .The Barnett Formula has rubbed salt into the wound. What was once a family squabble between the pictish hoard and the fair Southern “Angels” has deepened into a real political debate which can only go in one direction,.
The good People of Kirkaldy and Cowdenbeath know that Gordon Brown has ;little to do with them .At the heart of it this is the elephant in the Living room.It isn`t that Scottish votes are counted on English legislation it is that Scottish votes ,may well decide the outcome of the general election They will set the agenda of legislation for Scottish votes to be counted on.
Conservatives are not anti Union they recognise that this Pandoras box cannot be shut and the only way to retain the union sustainably is to evolve into a loose federation with all countries meeting independently and equally . There is no difficult in continuing to act as one nation in Foreign policy and you could even keep the BBC if you must. Conservatives have been astonishingly loyal to the Union and if Gordon brown thinks he can stir dissent by appealing to right wing nostalgia he entirely misjudges the direction and pace of change .
He gives the impression of a man holding a telescope to his blind eye , refusing to acknowledge the entirely clear self interest that has provoked his Damascene conversion to "Great Britain"
Get you tickets and all aboard the Lying Scotsman is building up a head of steam and we can expect plenty more. Many charlatans have draped themselves in the flag but I cannot think of one it fitted so poorly
Iain, try out your German on this fascinating article in Welt am Sonntag
Roman Herzog
This pro-Britishness is a major U-turn for this New Labour government. Labour were the ones who worked so hard to destroy the institutions that held Britain together, it's under Labour that a Union Jack is considered racist in the workplace, it was Labour that took the crown off of the Treasury letterhead, it was Labour who introduced devolution.
And they want immigrants to swear alliegance to the UK?
He might think he's being clever now but Brown's flagrant and all too obvious hypocrisy is going down badly with the voters methinks.
VOYAGER-Mein gott aber du bist ein show off
This is all about Gordon life consuming ambition to get to No10
He would never argue against Irish independence...given it success (for us all) he would loo an utter fool.
If Scots follow their good neighbouring examples in Norway Iceland and Ireland all riche4r per capita than UK and with no deficit this year...
Gordon is oot of a job
Gordon needs Scotland so he can boss England
ps despite his self hype the finance ministers of Norway Iceland and Ireland are all better than Gordon
What was once a family squabble between the pictish hoard and the fair Southern “Angels” has deepened into a real political debate which can only go in one direction,. (newmania)
Can you not phrase your support for independence and criticism of the current undemocratic situation in a more reasonable manner - without resorting to irrational and bigoted stereotypes such as those above, newmania?
I fully support independence for England and Scotland and view Mr Broon as a reasonable satirical target as the man's a walking stereotype and begs for it. However, stereotyping a whole nation in such crude terms for a cheap laugh is plain stupid.
Are you daft enough to imagine that England and Scotland will not need to co-operate once our respective nations have independence? If not, then show a little more respect,even if only for reasons of self interest and common sense.
Brown is totally unaware of how disliked he is by people across the political spectrum. Whereas many see Blair as a harmless limelight addicted buffoon they see Brown as a dangerous socialist Scot who has no concept of their day-to-day existence and political needs.
English Tories are old hands at using someones non-English origins against them , Kinnock was always being derided for being Welsh, Howard was of course forgiven for being Welsh, and Heseltine, it was never mentioned he came from Swansea. Now Cameron, what sort of name is that?
Iain Dale said...
"Yup, fair point!"
Iain you give the point too easily, in fact wrongly.
The Tories "slagged" off the Scottish Parliament on the basis that a Scottish Parliament would add to the slide to independence - and if it didn't it was just a talking shop and they objected to the cost. Once the Scottish Parliament was established then the principle of separation was established and the slide has followed.
To criticise the Tories for this is stupid. It's like saying when a person objects to Hitler invading European countries on the basis that it represents a slide to war - then the person and then cannot then go to war because they didn't want it.
Found the link
http://www.bbc.co.uk/politics97/news/09/0907/devolution1.shtml
As know now Gordon didn't raise tax in Scotland, but simply gave the Scots the English taxes.
'There's a joke in the Scottish Party about our 1918 manifesto. Then we promised Home Rule, proportional representation and the prohibition of alcohol. And in more than seventy years we have managed to secure none of them.'
Gordon Brown in the Daily Record 8th April 1993.
If anybody has any time they might like to trawl through the Scottish papers between 1992-1997 to look for articles and speeches by Gordon Brown.
The Sunday Mail featured a weekly column by Gordon Brown on the run up to the Scottish Referendum.
Any journos with access to lexisnexis can do the search of the Sunday Mail from 1st Jan 1994.
tyke - it is called natural selection - the fittest celts will survive, the numbers of english will fall, thus leaving enough room for the influx of people from the eu accession states.
Simple, innit ?
newmania - ' two faced Alec Salmon..'
What a picture that conjures up ! One for our friends at Beau Beau O'Dor or eclectech.co.uk perhaps ???
newmania - ' two faced Alec Salmon..'
What a picture that conjures up ! One for our friends at Beau Beau O'Dor or eclectech.co.uk perhaps ???
Iain, I can't understand your anti-SnP stance here ? Surely all the SNP are trying to do are take more control of their own country locally, in exactly the same way the Tories are trying to do in wresting control away from the EU bureaucracy which is stifling the power of the 'Mother Of Parliaments'.
Eh, what's that you say ? The Tories are NOT trying to maintain the power of Westminster against the invading hordes of EU legislators ? Hmmm...Perhaps you aren't being as inconsistent as I thought..
p.s. any bets on El Gordo ending up as EU president [or Iraqi leader] in five years time ?
Well it does appear to be backfiring - "The Scottish nationalists have recorded their highest level of support for a decade " - Sunday Times
And this "Tom Devine, widely regarded as Scotland’s pre-eminent historian and a favourite of Jack McConnell’s, added his voice to the debate, saying he believed Scotland could thrive as an independent country."
Plus the former head of Scottish Enterprise, and number 3 at Sun Microsystems, has also come out for the SNP.
Yes and I seem to remember Tony Benn and Enoch Powell sharing a platform when campaigning against the then EEC. So what?
Surely Iain the constitution, including devolution, is something that transcends party politics? It determines the rules by which the game is played so to speak. So I see nothing out of the ordinary about all shades of opinion in Scotland, sans the Conservatives, of course, campaigning for a yes vote in the devolution referenda.
You guys are wrong on devolution and most of the posts on this thread and the other one about Gordon Brown's pro-union stance just show how you have not come to terms with it. Instead of engaging constructively with the issues most are happy to regress to some form of toe curling infantile English nationalism.
Classic quote from Brown on Javelin's link:
"...they will be wanting to save money, cut waste, cut bureaucracy and red tape..."
LOL
I welcome "the slide" because, as an Englishman en route to minority status in my own country, I am convinced that the destruction of Britain will be productive of the greater popular understanding of our own natural rights and interests.
That Brown must reify an argument for "Britishness and Britain itself" based on denying our rights and interests and placing upon us only the obligation to immerse ourselves in the seas of the Third World intellectually demonstrates how poverty-stricken and generally Marxised political discourse has become. Let him make his case. Let the Scots - and the English - reject it.
I would feel a lot more confident of salvation if Ian's party had not been dragged these last one hundred and seventy years behind the leftward-migrating zeitgeist. Cameron is no less a liberal than Brown, and will not raise a finger in our cause.
devolution and indepence are two different things!
What a bizarre criticism. Devolution and independence are entirely different. I think you are losing it a bit, Iain.
Brown & the SNP were then campaigning for devolution Brown still is..
The question of whether devolution has eased the path to independence or been an alternative destination is, like whether the the French Revolution was a success, one that it is to early to answer. My opinion is that if Labour, like the Tories had turned their face against it they might have forced us to choose independence as the only alternative.
However I am sure that the resentment we used to feel against the English, who appeared to be, indeed were, running Scotland from Westminster with a considerable degree of arrogance, is considerably reduced. Whether or not we part I am sure it will be on more friendly terms than it would have been without devolution.
Anon 10.34 is one of those Scotchmen into whose understanding a joke cannot be inserted without a surgical operation.
"Brown is in a very morally compromised position at the moment. He's trying to distance himself from Iraq without actually saying anything like: 'I was wrong.'
"It's a shabby position and, I think, worse than Blair's because however repugnant you may find Blair's stance, at least he sticks to it. I think Peter has captured the moral ambiguity of Brown. That is, someone who is a bit sanctimonious and preaches ethics, but in the end doesn't deliver."
Alistair Beaton writer of The Trial of Tony Blair
http://living.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=68642007
Now Cameron, what sort of name is that?
It is obviously the name of yet another Haggis-Basher
10.34 Anon- "resorting to irrational and bigoted stereotypes such as those above, newmania?"
Aren`t the Scots a thin lipped humourless mean lot of dour baby eating savages then ?
Black Bart- English Nationalism is always described in derogatory terms while Welsh and Scottish nationalism which is like burning bile is always forgiven . We seem to be inflicted with a sort of Barnett formula for political maturity. The issues are not complicated they are simple and that s why this will be a hugely important electoral question. When we are independent the extent to which we , the English cooperate or not will be something the Scots have no say in. They have no right to an opinion on it now. We had no say in , your devolution and nor did Scots living in England .The Scots are like a child who starts a fight and then suddenly realises they don’t like it .
There are other problems tied up with this regionalisation of voting patterns is threatening democracy even within England . David Cameron and now the “Lying Scotsman” usually sound like people from another country because their remarks are addressed to the 800,000 people who decide the election. Differential economic progress is another problem which is currently creating a North South divide that may itself become unsustainable in the fullness of time
As a sideline to this debate, although I believe the observation might be related. I offer the following.
There is much talk at the moment regarding the future of the Royal Dockyards, (this is a subject close to my heart, having served for 22 years in the Royal Navy). I do not wish to see any of the dockyards sold off, however, if any go, why should it not be Rosyth, rather than Portsmouth, after all the cold war is over and Portsmouth offers easier access to the Atlantic. What, therefore is the point of retaining Rosyth?
Oh! silly me, it's in Gordon's backyard, that would be tricky for him to sell to his new friends in Scotland.
Regionalisation/devolution whatever it's called, the voting process, where it exists, is proportional, not dear old first- past- the -post where we all know who won.
If the UK breaks up because of Gordon Brown's spiteful, mendacious ambition , the ensuing onslaught of the anoraks would be high in the top ten of reasons for anyone-but-Brown.
When we are independent the extent to which we , the English cooperate or not will be something the Scots have no say in. (newmania)
Not heard of our water shortages then? What a twit you can be, newmania. Of course we shall have to co-operate.
xzliAnon. 7.57
'... Of course we shall have to co-operate.'
What an oxy - moron.
And then there's Cameroon on Black Wednesday and 20 months ago righto a gung-ho old school hang em and flog em manifesto. The Hollywooder was supporting Brown's policy. Logically this doesn not mean Brown was supporting the Hollywooder's absentee nationalism.
The rottenest bits of these islands of ours
We've left in the hands of three unfriendly powers;
Examine the Irishman, Welshman or Scot,
You'll find he's a stinker as likely as not!
The English, the English, the English are best!
I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest.
FLANDERS AND SWANN
Anonymous said...
When we are independent the extent to which we , the English cooperate or not will be something the Scots have no say in. (newmania)
Not heard of our water shortages then? What a twit you can be, newmania. Of course we shall have to co-operate.
*Water shortages? You mean the nasty jocks won't pee for a week? Now that's tight.
I dare say if they start all that shite they'll get a more than adequate response. I.e. we'll @#$#% their salmon up.
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