One thing I have learnt over the years is that if you ever write about Israel or Palestine you should be prepared to don a tin helmet. But I never learn, do I? On 5 Live yesterday evening I mentioned that while I supported Israel's actions over the last couple of days I was appalled at the destruction inflicted on Beirut, a city I visited fifteen years ago, shortly after John McCarthy was released. A couple of people emailed me and said I should write about the visit, so I spent a couple of hours this morning sitting in the sun on the Norfolk coast tapping out an article on the current conflict and my visit to the Lebanon. I decided to post it on Comment is Free first and you can read the full version HERE. It's the longest article I've written for some time. Naturally, the comments so far accuse me of being blindly pro-Israeli. I thought I had given a balanced view, but you can't please everyone!
Here's a short extract...
I have no doubt that Israel was right to react to the kidnapping of two of its soldiers. For some time now, the Israelis have acted with great self-restraint in response to huge provocation from various groups allied to the Palestinian cause. In the end, something was bound to give, and the likes of Hezbollah knew that.
Israel has a new prime minister, a man with no military background. There are bound to be suspicions that this week's bombing of Lebanon was, at least in part, an attempt by Ehud Olmert to prove his hardline credentials to the Israeli military - and the wider population. He wouldn't be human if there were not an element of that in his mind, though it might well be buried deep in his subconscious.
But whatever the real reason, he was right to take action. Not least because, if he had not done so, it would have been interpreted by Israel's enemies as a sign of weakness and encouraged Hezbollah to take further hostages.
The key for the Israeli prime minister now is to determine what is a proportionate response and what is not.
Friends of mine, who know far more about Israel than I do, are convinced that the soldier kidnapped a few weeks ago is already dead. For all we know the same fate has befallen the latest two victims. If so, then the Middle East is about to enter a new phase of carnage and retribution at a time when the region already resembles a giant fusebox.
Memories of August 1914 keep coming to me. A world war started by a bizarre killing in Sarajevo. Could Hezbollah have started a massive new conflict by kidnapping two anonymous Israeli soldiers? It hardly bears thinking about.
I have no doubt that the White House will be urging the Israeli government to exercise restraint. Condi Rice will be telling them that they've made their point, and that further destruction and heavy military strikes would be counter-productive.
But her discussions with the Lebanese would be far more interesting. For the newly elected and very shaky Lebanese government is in a real quandary. It contains members of Hezbollah - one in its Cabinet - yet it does not control them. Indeed, you could argue that it is even less able to control Hezbollah than the Palestinian Authority is able to control the radicals and terrorists who operate within its jurisdiction. A further complication is that the Lebanese government is heavily influenced by the Syrians. And it is they who could prove key to this unfortunate situation. This is not a comforting thought for anyone.
My thoughts on this terrible situation are also influenced by a visit I made to Lebanon some 15 years ago, not long after the British hostages had been freed. Indeed, I was told during my visit to Beirut that I was the first Brit to have ventured there following John McCarthy's release, a bit of a coincidence as John McCarthy lived in the next village to me in Essex. Had I know this before my trip, I suspect I might well have chickened out of going.
To read the full article click HERE.
53 comments:
If the destruction of power stations is proportionate to one israeli soldier, then what should Palestine's proportionate response be to the kidnapping of half of their elected government, let alone the hundreds of Palestinians in Israeli jails?
Bless you, Mr Dale.
Sadly, the hierarchy of the Church of England has become blindly anti-Israel in recent years. One years for the truth to permeate the wider media.
Bold of you to write it, but I am yet to see any other international issue that polarises opinion (and has done - for decades) the way matters Israeli / Arab do. Accordingly, some will cheer you, some will jeer you but precious few will finesse matters...
The Anonymous agrees with your positions Iain - Israel is embattled and worthy of defence; surrounded by a sea of liars and villains since it's inception, it has nevertheless fought through to become a genuine democracy, which for long has been almost the only one in the middle-east. The jew-haters in the British left loathe it, their thinly-veiled anti-semitism worthy of Himmler or Goebbels, only too eager to countenance the destruction of this brave people yet again by the worthless psychopathic murderers and wastrels that make up "his-bullah" and "ha-mas", fronts for the mad mullahs in Tehran and Damascus. If only our own limp-wristed governments would support them to the honorable extent that the US did. When the Israeli jets go in to pound the morons who harass them with missiles and kidnappings despite years of restraint, our jets should be alongside them. Instead we are pathetically gridlocked by decades of favoring shite-hawk arab rulers, pampering them in London with captive slave women whilst the desparate poor of their own countries toil and weep.
As a pacifist I can offer no real answers. I cannot accept that what Israel is doing is right, any moreso than that what Hezbollah or Hamas has been doing.
I do believe a sovereign state, especially one with the technological, intelligence and financial advantages that Israel has by comparison with its neighbours, and its powerful and sympathetic friends worldwide, does not need to resort to holding a whole country, and a bit of a basket case still at that, hostage.
I share your concerns about where this could be going. There has been talk for months about whether Israel would, for example, become impatient with western faffing about over Iran.
This situation could easily escalate into something that gives them the perfect excuse to intervene there.
I'm disgusted and depressed. But they've been voting for four thousand years on the basis of "Saul has killed his thousands, David his tens of thousands" it seems.
BUt I agree - you brave to put your head over the parapet.
Actually, they were reacting to a lot more than the kidnapping of two soldiers (and one in Gaza). What about those many Kassam rockets (and a few Katyushas)? That's just for starters. The Palestinians have no money for hospitals but, apparently, have no problems in purchasing arms, explosives, rockets.
I just had the misfortune to see uncensored AP photos of the bomb sites. One toddler had been blown to pieces, another pic was of a charred, lifeless baby.
I understand reason Isreal has bombed roads, bridges & airport and has blockaded is to stop captured soldiers being easily moved within or outside of Lebanon Syria or flown to Iran. BBC & media report the actions but with no interpretation or indication of why - it sounds like Israel dis-proportionately attacking Lebanon rather than targetting response.
I support the Palestinians desire for a homeland and think Israeli occupation has harmed not only the Palestinians but the society & people of Israel but could we have better journalism please?
An insightful piece of journalism. I normally avoid anything on CiF that could in anyway be linked to Israel because of the dogma and vitrol that spew forth from both sides; this was a welcome exception to the rule. Unfortunately, there is no doubt that the comments it attracts will serve to restore the status quo of abject nonsense being spoken on the subject.
Mr Dale, you have a regular viewer from Norway these days. This article was very well writen and I agre with you.
Lebanon has for so many years ben brutally oppressed by the Syrian Government of Hafez al Assad and Bashir al Assad. In addition they have to struggle with Hezbollah, which is both a political movement represented in the lebanese parliament and cabinet, but are also a terrorist organisation funded by Iran.
Israel have every right to defend itself against Islamic Jihad, Hamas and Hezbollah who want to destroy them, but I agree with you entirely that it is shame that they have to destroy great parts of a fragile Lebanon.
Lebanon deserve more aid and headlines in the west and democratic countries in the west have to stand up for lebanon, and start putting pressure on Hezbollah and Syria.
Never stop writing, blogosphere need you!
Ian, I happened upon your column in the Guardian, and, well, I hate every idea you've expounded. By your calculations it's rational to take the lives of Lebanese people, innocent people, to make a point, to show that Israel isn't weak. Ian, that is nothing but sad. You seem to be saying that Ehud can be just, you know, be a bit forgiven if he felt a buried need "to prove his hardline credentials to the Israeli military", as if that should play any role at all in life-and-death decisions. We are talking about human life being destroyed here, and you are quite casual and uncaring about it, as if commenting on a football match from a great distance. (That post, by the way, is likewise sad and unnecessary.)
"Take George Bush's advice and exercise restraint"?? Earth to Ian: George Bush isn't advising restraint. Having learned not a thing, he's still the Let's Roll screw-up, mouthing only gentle nothings while, as everyone but you seems to know, he's green-lighting it. (As if he wasn't told it was coming).
I agree with ian's comment -- there is another side to this. Clearly Israel has great media pull to spin this disprportionate response as self-defence. But I see you won't agree.
Great article once again from Britain No 1 blogger
There's a lot I could commment on in your article, however I'll reserve that for later (if I can summon the energy to write!). Instead, I'll concentrate on your last couple of paragraphs.
I can't agree with you on your opinion about the choices that Lebanon faces right now. You make it sound like a simplistic ultimatum, almost like Bush's "with us or against us" statement. It is anything but a simple choice, in my opinion.
Lebanon would appear to be stuck between a rock and a hard place. I don't doubt for a moment the desire of the Lebanese government for continued prosperity and peaceful relations with its neighbours, but I don't believe it's in a position to create those opportunities itself.
They can let their internal enemies (Hezbullah/ Hizbullah/ whatever) maintain an uneasy, but steady relationship with them, by not interfering with them- they'll pay the price when Hezbullah launch incursions, kidnap foreign nationals and otherwise heighten tensions with sovereign neighbours, as we have seen. People will die, infrastructure will be destroyed and an economy will suffer.
OR they can launch a feeble campaign against their internal enemies and watch it descend into a lethal farce fairly quickly. Lebanon doesn't enjoy the best of relations with Hezbollah's sponsor, Syria- a country which already makes its mark beyond the border. Hezbollah certainly won't go without a fight. That's not even mentioning a point made on the BBC News site today about Lebanon's armed forces Shia contingent which could perhaps be sympathetic to Hezbollah. If Lebanon attempt to do something about their unwanted tenants, people will die, infrastructure will be destroyed and an economy will suffer.
So, Lebanon might have choices- it's easy to say that from the sidelines- but in Lebanon's shoes, how do you arrive at a decision?
I know I'll be going out on a limb by saying this on a blog of this kind, but I really think Lebanon deserves a bit more understanding and sympathy. Its hands are tied and this fledgling democracy needs all the support it can get.
This isn't coming from a 'pro-Palestinian/ anti-Israel' perspective. So far as I'm concerned I have no bias towards either.
The Israelis are right to take the action they are taking, and I admire their resolve. Prevail over the enemy. I wish them well in this.
My comment to the BBC Have Your Say on this wasn't published but here it is ...
Breaking News:
IRA terrorists based in the Republic of Ireland have kidnapped a British soldier.
In retaliation, the British Army has blown up Dublin airport and shelled southern suburbs of the city killing 60 civillians.
Would this be acceptable here? No, but substitute "British" with "Israeli", "Irish" with "Lebanese" or "Palestinian" and "IRA" with "Hezbollah" or "Hamas" and suddenly it's an act of self defence and the Americans send you some more weapons to help you along.
proportionate?
Why is it that we didn't behave like this over Lockerbie?
Israel has a hair trigger and over-react to everything. They have invaded Lebanon numerous times - hijackings in Athens, attempted assasinations in London, it really doesn't take much for them to go in and start destroying stuff.
Do you seriously think this a sane way to behave?
Can you imagine what the UK's position would be in the world if we behaved like this every time we had had a diplomatic issue?
And is it any wonder Israel has been condemned by pretty much every nation bar the US and Israel.
> Israel has a new prime minister, a man with no military background.
He served as a mayor of Jerusalem before - it is a kind of a military background I would say. Israel is Right - But I Weep for Nahariya and Beirut - I visited the first one before, but there are plenty of innocent plainfolks who lives in Beirut as well.
Why does everybody keep going on about a 'proportionate response'? If somebody slaps you in the face, you can sensibly do one of two things: you can ignore him (ie turn the other cheek) or you can knock seven bells out of him. (Contrary to what some might think the former requires more courage than the latter.) What only an idiot does is respond proportionately, ie slap him back, because all that happens is you end up in an ever escalating fight. By the US funding Israel and the EU, Iran and Saudi funding Palestine and everybody else, we are like spectators at a cock fight. By ensuring that nobody ever lands a decisive (or disproportionate) blow, we force the contestents to slowly peck each other to death.
Hmmm....'Right'(not in the political sense) is an interesting word to use in the circumstances.
'Right' seems to me to smack of duality. Some might argue that the cement that holds the whole sorry issue of the Israel/Arab conflict together is duality.
In choosing to present both sides of the frightening events of the past 36 hours, BBC’s voice from Beirut happens to be that of Kim Ghattas (pictured), a born-in-Lebanon Lebanese who speaks English smoothly and is never identified as partisan or even (in our experience) Lebanese. The BBC’s choice of academic expert is a Lebanese man based in Washington DC with a very Lebanese viewpoint. And the message from both (paraphrased by us) is: it’s those belligerent Israelis all over again, and until civilized and cultured forces from outside step in, the bloodshed will continue. We’re now into the second half-hour of this hour-long bulletin, and while there’s not a single word - not one word, not one image - so far about what’s being done to Israeli towns all over the Galilee, there is a diplomatic analysis, courtesy of Syria’s ambassador to the UN. (Yes, Syria.)
From http://thisongoingwar.blogspot.com/2006/07/14-jul-06-word-about-bbc.html
Dodonline,
The implication of your 'sensible' response is collective punishment.
Your analogy only concerns one individual pitted against another. Perfectly fine response, in my book. However it was the wrong analogy for this instance.
Why should civilians carry the can for the acts of others?
Proportionate doesn't mean 'weak', it means getting it right by targetting appropriately. That can include all of Hezbollah, for all I care. It doesn't include an international airport.
If you still believe civilians should carry the can, then by another implication, you legitimise the actions of the July 7th bombers.
Israel made territorial concessions to the Palestinians recently. It hasn't lessened muslim hostility and it won't.
If we get out of Iraq and Afghanistan tomorrow, we can still look forward to more terrorist acts.
Appeasment never works.
Unbelievable.
I will not read this blog any more.
Iain, although I disagree with alomost all of your views, I can not stand by this article.
Sorry. Goodbye. Sniff.
War is war. People die. It is Lebanon's choice.
If we had responded in the same way when the plane crashed in Lockerbie, we might be living in a more peaceful world today. What the Arabs understand is a strong, unforgiving hand.
Dodonline:
"Why does everybody keep going on about a 'proportionate response'? If somebody slaps you in the face, you can sensibly do one of two things: you can ignore him (ie turn the other cheek) or you can knock seven bells out of him."
But we're not talking about a slap on the cheek, we're talking about a country using military force against a sovereign nation in retaliation for the actions of terrorists operating out of that country - not even the actions of the government of that country.
Under international law, the response to an attack must be proportionate to the threat. Three soldiers have been kidnapped in total, that is not proportionate to blowing up airporrts, power stations, roads and killing 60 civillians. Israel, once again, is breaking international law. The Americans have sold and/or donated some serious military hardware to the Israeli's.
Iain, I can't say i have like you visited Beirut, because from 2 months old I grew up there.
When you haev lived that side of the border you get a very different perspective.
On polliticalbetting.com I made it clear that I did not consider hezboulah extreame. I don't think what they did was right either, but I know how they came to be.
When I was 3 years old, the UN asked my family to visit Southern Lebanon, because you would not believe what was going on there. The western press reported every single incedent involving Palestinian Terrosists, but would never report what heppaned before or after.
If you had seen what I had seen you would take a different view.
However, if we move forward to today, and from emotions to reality.
The fact is this. When I was 3 the Shia were shat upon by everybody, and they had an education to match. They got fed up with being shelled for what the armed prats in the PLO were doing, and so formed first Amal, them Hexboulah, got educated and disciplined.
They read. They watch. The understand.
When they started this incusion they did so for a number of reasons. Firstly because it gains them standing. Secondly they may have been motivated to relieve the presure on Gaza.
What they have done however, is to read the real hostage they have which is Ehud Olmert. They know that he needs to prove his strength, and they also know just exactly how he is goingto do it. Having seen it first hand from a very young age it is very predictable.
They were ready. They have now hit an Israeli warship which has had to limp back to port. I saw an Israeli jet downed, but this is some movement,
So what does Israel do? Kill civilians, just like the suicide bombers, whilst playing exactly to the script that Hezboulah knew they were going to play to. No chance for the Saudi's to express their displeasure or any one else to twist arms. Hexboulah understand Ehud, and they are playing him like a fiddle.
Meanwhile, Lebonease, Palestinians and Isreali civilians are dying.
BTW, Hezboulah will move their hostages where they feel like, regardless of what the Israelis do to the roads.
As an amusing foot note Israel demands the enforcement of a UN resolution. 194 or 242 anyone?
A coalition member of the Lebanonese government murdered and abducted soldiers of a country it was supposed to be at peace with, it really is as clear cut a causus belli as can be imagined. The situation in Gaza is slightly more nuanced but Lebanon has essentially declared war on Israel and any consequences they suffer as a result of that are entirely their own responsibility.
Israel is right, Mr. Dale ?
Look at the pics, dude. Charred children, elderly people with limbs blown off. Ah, but lest we forget; these are Palestinian and Lebanese toddlers and children, and Palestinian and Lebanese housewives, and Palestinian and Lebanese elderly ... they are not members of the chosen race !
FACT. INDISPUTABLE FACT. Israel is attacking PRIVATE CITIZENS of a sovereign nation, not Hezbollah. If any other country did this, there would be world outcry; the bombadiers would be tried for war crimes, for violating the most basic of Geneva Conventions.
FACT. This is exactly the type of demonstration which we in America, which England, which the world does not need to occur. This is precisely what we should not be teaching young potential extremists : that the end justifies the means.
Isn't that exactly what Israel is doing , what it is saying ??? That if you have a beef with a government over its military ventures, then you have the right to obliterate a city with bombs and hurt millions of innocents ?
Isn't that the rationale and logic which the subway bombers of London had ? Isn't that the logic which triggered 911 ?
I am not Anti Jewish. But I can no longer support ... morally or politcally ... a government like Israel which teaches evil ways.
For all u hatred-imbued hard-core Zionists, drop the "Chosen Nation " garbage. It's blasphemous.
True chosen children of God do not teach other children of God to kill innocent citizens in order to prove their political point.
Hitler was evil.
Stalin was evil.
Israel is evil.
James - Israel is responding to violent aggression against its territory. Hezbullah started it. Civilians have died. Their responsibility; not Israel's.
Immigrants following an alien, aggressive religion, or cult, committing mass murder on our soil against our people is not the same thing.
Equivalency is another word for lack of a spine. The only response to aggression is a much stronger response. I've never been to Lebanon and I'm sorry innocent people are dying, but that is the fault of their government.
The infrastructure can be rebuilt, a few bridges, an airport and powerstations are really not such a huge deal to replace.
If this gets rid of Hezbollah for good, then it is a small price to pay for the liberation of Lebanon and it's people.
Shame on you Iain, you are finding reasons to fight a war, and there's no need, it's happening already. At a time like this, we should all be finding reasons to bring about peace.
Death and destruction against innocent people is a very immature and stupid way to deal with problems.
Some of us are incapable of such atrocities, some of us are spiteful as toddlers but we grow up. The others were probably school bullies and grow up to be thugs. A thug with a fist is dangerous. A thug with missiles is a disaster waiting to happen.
Did we bomb houses, bridges and power stations in Northern Ireland to root out the terrorists? Of course not. That would have caused more suffering and would have esculated the situation.
So why do so many defend Israel's actions?
Tom
I see I made the same point as Wokotsane.
It seems to some life is cheap as long as it isn't a British, American or Israeli life.
And it is that attitude where our problem lays, because we are no better than anyone else and Palestinans, Lebanese or MUSLIMS are not a disposable sub-species we can destroy like vermin because we have more bombs than them.
It is time we built bridges instead of bombing them. If we act like terrorists, we become terrorists. We become no better than those who kill indescriminately. We should be ashamed of all those who support terrorism, including our political masters.
Tom
I am bemused by your simile that the region "...resembles a giant fusebox..."
Are you saying it's neat, orderly and colour coded, with safety cut-outs if things get dangerous?
Shurely shome mistake?
Verity Said "What the Arabs understand is a strong, unforgiving hand. "
It may have escaped your notice but that has been the Israli policy since 1948,
It appears not to have worked so far, and repeating it does not make it any more correct.
Iain, I think your view is extremely balanced in that it attempts to show the situation from both sides.
However, for some people there is only one side and it is anti-Israel, and those people don't want to hear anything else.
Verity said:
James - Israel is responding to violent aggression against its territory. Hezbullah started it. Civilians have died. Their responsibility; not Israel's.
So the July 7th bombers were correct in their 'response' also? After all, we started the Iraq war, so the bombers were merely responding to it. That civilians were caught up is our own fault.
I've never been to Lebanon and I'm sorry innocent people are dying, but that is the fault of their government.
Oh come off it... Why don't you just come out unashamedly proud of your racism?
You aren't sorry that innocent people are dying- if we're frank about it, you couldn't care less in this instance because they're Arabs or Muslims (even attacking Arab Christians doesn't seem to bother you). We've seen your response to Israelis being attacked and int his very thread we've seen your paternalist thoughts on how Arabs should be treated.
macskuli - do keep up! The Israeli beach party "that killed a whole Palestinian family" was faked by the BBC and they have now admitted it was supposed to be "illustrative" or some similar weasel word. The clue that bloggers - and especially the doughty Biased-BBC - picked up on was, at the end, one of the actors with paint on his face, not aware that they were still filming, got up and walked away.
I cannot believe there is anyone in Britain who hasn't read about this.
friendly fire: No US politician said "democracies don't go to war". The saying, conventional wisdom for some 40 years or so, is, "Democracies do not go to war WITH EACH OTHER."
One wonders why the British Government didn't employ such heroic tactics when the Irgun captured two British Army sergeants in response to Irgun members being found guilty of murder and sentenced to death. Obviously the RAF are a bunch of girls compared to the brave IDF.
Anyway, they subsequently hung the sergeants from olive trees. To top it off they put mines around the trees and booby trapped one of the bodies to explode when it was cut down - badly wounding the soldier doing it.
They sent one of the sergeants back to my wife's great aunt in pieces. Thank god none of his murderers ever achieved high state office....one does yearn for the balanced truth you know.
Good article Iain, a pity that so many people either don't understand that there are two sides this debate or simply don't want to hear it.
James calls me a racist - the left's answer to everything and the key to closing down the discussion when a lefty gets just too angry.
I'm not Jewish and I'm defending Israel. This makes me a racist? You need to calm down and try some rational thought.
Benedict White says: "It may have escaped your notice but that has been the Israli policy since 1948," adding that it doesn't seem to have worked. That is because whenever Israel takes decisive action, the entire planet starts hysterical shrieking. They don't get support. (Yes, they get monetary support mainly from the US, but others always condemn their daring action.)
Remember Entebbe. If you'd been on that airport, you would have died of relief to see the Israelis thundering in.
The reason why the Israeli government and its people do not now seem to give a dam about western political opinion, is this. They have known for a while now, that as far as the left/BBC/MSM is concerned they can not do anything right,ever. So they might as well do it the only way they know that works.
Israel has had several periods in its short history of peace. This unfortuately has only happened after they have won victories on the battle field. Israel is run by people that use common sense and experience, not maxist anti-semitic rantings to form their policies. They dont have the luxuary of getting it wrong even once.
It is very good to see that amounst the British public in general their is a greater than ever understanding of what Israel has to deal with everyday, post 7/7 and 9/11. However this is hardly supprising. The British people are mostly quite capable of understanding the evidence of their own eyes, all on their own. Thanks in no way at all to the BBC, and all but a very few socialist politicians. Which in main only encourage the enemies of democracy to believe they can win a war that they simply will never be allowed to by ANY leader of the USA or Britain.
i thought i'd add some actual facts to this - the number of palestinians killed by the IDF between january and july this year seeing as though people keep bringing up the palestinians provoking with rockets as if the israelis are perfect. these are from the international red cross and red crescent and refers to occupied palestine only, this doesnt include the lebanon.
jan - 18
feb - 29
mar - 20
apr - 31
may - 42
june - 55
july (to the 12th) - 84
i see two groups both acting like terrorists. my british sense of fairplay makes me condemn the israelis more because they have such a huge advantage in their tanks and planes and preach morally about being victims as if they have some unilateral right to human suffering. israel does have the right to stop attacks on its border but imagine if we had done in ireland what they are doing...
gwwcst posting above is me. Clearly I copied down the test letters and put them in the wrong box.
What do you do?
The vast majority of the countries surounding you openly state that they would wish to see your nation destroyed, they are willing to sacrifice their children whom they brainwash intoblowing themselves up in cafe's and shopping centers.
You have rockets launched at you every day, tunnels dug to let tour enemies attack you and smuggle arms.
Do you turn the other cheek? show restraint?
How long would we as the Brithsh public stand for this from an enemy?
I know that there are bleeding heart do-gooders out ther that believe talking is the answer, but how do you sort things out with a terrorist organisaton that can't even gaurantee all it's memebers would follow it leadership.
There is no nice answer to this problem I wish that there was.
I may be selfish but I hold the belief that we should take care of our own, and only get involved should this conflict spread to include us.
Iain Dale spake thusly: "Memories of August 1914 keep coming to me. A world war started by a bizarre killing in Sarajevo."
Anyone who commences from a revisionist version of history such as this, which expressly omits to include any mention of the Berlin-Baghdad railway that would have resulted in a very different version of the Middle East, is in no position to pass judgement on anything.
gwwcst said...
James calls me a racist - the left's answer to everything and the key to closing down the discussion when a lefty gets just too angry.
Let's not get ahead of ourselves, eh? I haven't called anybody a racist- let alone you, who I haven't got a clue about.
But, seeing as you're eager to take this on a loony tangent, I'll afford you the luxury of doing so.
Just how is it reasonable that the moment someone disagrees with someone else's position, they suddenly become 'the left'?
Somehow, I don't think some of the peeps HERE would recognise your attempted slur as being particularly relevant.
Anon
Saying that you have a sense of British fair play is a losers way of making an excuse for their compleat lack of balls and therefore being a ....loser. Israel cant risk defeat ever.
Israel stopped having such a stupid egocentric attitude probely when the first load of their children got blown to bits on the way to school. Your comparison with NI is crazy, and may I say quite ignorent. NI is part of Britain and is a British problem. You also have no better idear than I do what would have happend since 1974 in Ulster. If the British government had just rooted out all the IRA leadership that they were very well aware of, 32 years ago. The IRA was set up to win an Irish independance state. However having got one instead of disbanding used it to kill and intimidate its protestant and catholic British neighbours. You dont have a crystal ball to see a future that never happened, do you? I think the figure of deaths since 1974 is something like 3,500 innocent human beings and still counting. I also dont remember any suicide bombers or the IRA launching 150 rockets a week at British towns. Neither did I know that the IRA had commited itself to the distruction of the British state and all its people. The IRA may have got a bob or two from a few individual Americans, but I was also unaware that the yanks or any other state was sponsoring the IRA directly. A comparison between the boy scout movement and the IRA would be a better comparison than with Hamas. Try comparing Hamas and their mates and sponsors with 1940s stile European National Socialism, and I think even you might think again. Because this is how most Israelis see THEIR situation.
I concider rather than relieing on a sense of British "fair play" for an idear. It would be more enlightened of you to compare what WE the British did 67 years ago when a country called Poland was invaded, before a bomb had even landed on British soil, dont you?
buster george - agreed; and how long should civilised,intelligent, contributing people who are, and have been in the past,writers and artists of worldwide note for hundreds of years, politicians, scientists, musicians, philanthropists, businessmen, philosphers, bother to put up with being styled 'pigs and monkeys' by pig-ignorant, toxic imams and preachers of hate who have themselves and in their families down throughout history, failed to accomplish a bloody thing to the furtherance of mankind?
I support Israel.
Shouldn't let terrorists enter government they cannot resist being terrorists still..............a point Ian Paisley has endeavoured to impress upon Dublin and London.
Lebanon does it first with The Palestinians, and then with Hezbollah.............you cannot cede part of your territory to a terrorist group without getting burned.
In July 1946 Jewish terrorists killed British troops in a bomb outrage at the King David Hotel, and in July 1947 two British Army NCOs were brutally murdered, also by Jewish terrorists.
Lest we forget.
Iain, l would refrain from making such value judgements like "Israel is right..." in sensitive cases as these.As l understand there is such a word as 'perspective'. l would as a Historian present my facts and let my readers judge.
This is such a complex issue, I don't see either side keen to come up with a quick solution. I have asked Robert Halfon to write about this on my site, I am hoping to publish this shortly.
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