Around this time of the year, my mum, Jena, a devout Shia Muslim, who died last year, would ask to be taken to see the Christmas lights in town, and when dropped off back home would entreat in Kutchi, our home language: "Say something nice in your newspaper article, time for that. It's their Christmas. Don't make people upset. This is a good country for us, you know." I can hear her mellow voice today, and do as she bid. For in many ways, she is right. This is a good country for us and we Muslims don't say that often enough. Mea culpa.
Monday, December 10, 2007
Yasmin: Muslims Have Much to Thank Britain For
I know that to many of you the very mention of Yasmin Alibhai-Brown's name brings on a fit of the vapours. Well, read her COLUMN in today's Independent and you might, just this once, find a redeeming factor in her writing. It's headlined "Muslims have much to thank Britain for". Here's how it starts...
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
84 comments:
Yeah, but, is Yasmin Alibhai-Brown good for this country, or indeed other Muslims? Hmmmmmmm...
ENGLAND is indeed a great country (or was until McLabour came to power), "Britain" is the state, a null and void "Union" as of 1998.
i thought that Muslims celebrated Christmas anyway -albeit it in a different way to our Germanic version. For isnt Jesus recognised by Muslims as Prophet? As is the Virgin Mary?
it just that they see Mohammed as being the final prophet from Allah.
John Trenchard - Not really. That's what they tell the infidels.
I frankly don't give a monkey's what Jasmin A-B thinks or whether the muslims approve of Britain or not. The day we are grateful to Stone Agers for approving of our advanced, enlightened society is a sad one indeed.
How about all those muslim somali rapists, muggers, robbers and murderers, with the large, slack, stupid faces and bovine eyes? Do they approve of us, too.
I wouldn't normally read the Independent, but enjoyed the article. I wonder which audience she is aiming at?
Profoundly meaningful at least.
Wasn't Gordon truly magnificent flying into Basra and Afghanistan. Did you see the adulation on the faces of the troops?
It takes a man a real man of courage to fly into major trouble spots and he wasn't even wearing a flak jacket!
We are so lucky to have him as our leader. An inspiration to everyone.
Gosh isn't he just courageous?
I read it as far as the bit that said:-
" Robert Fisk, the most highly regarded journalist in, and on, the Middle East"
Maybe her heart's in the right place - but she's still totally brain dead.
This has to be a Labour Spin story, surely.
How can any citizen - or relative - from a Bush-Blair targeted country 'Thank' anyone for the 500lb bombs.
I was fascinated to see another new catch-phrase gaining currency in the media today: 'Teddy Hating Fundamentalists'.
Well, it could be quite funny. Except that the racism of the Labour Party - and let's not forget its stance on Lebanon - is an unhealthy force.
Iain, I suspect I udnerstand the reasons you allowed Verity's comment. I presume it's because you regard your readers as intelligent people and will see the post for what it is. But please consider this paragraph again.
"How about all those muslim somali rapists, muggers, robbers and murderers, with the large, slack, stupid faces and bovine eyes? Do they approve of us, too."
I, for one, do not want to read comments that are clearly not only racist but also seem to take an almost eugenic view of personal appearance. There is a limit and I think this post crossed it.
What does she want a medal?
I enjoyed this article - but consider, the worrying isolation in some islamic communities in the UK.
We need these people to become integrated into our society - if not, how could they ever appreciate it?
The sad fact is, we have some (yes a minority) of muslims that are behaving as if they are living in a country that tolerates sharia law - fact is we don't.
Verity
Although I agree with your sentiments, I try not to use such "robust"language. I keep holding on to a mad idea that there can be an honest dialogue on a forum such as this, and through it may become a deeper understaning and tolerance of other people's beliefs. If some people cannot do tis, perhaps they should move to a country more in accordance with their thinking.
Mr BV,
Presumably, if you do not wish to read such comments, you are under no compulsion to do so. Mr Dale may not agree with such expressions; indeed, he may find them extremely distasteful, but an accusation of 'racism' is frequently the first refuge of those who are either incpapable or unwilling to engage with the sensitive ethno-religious issues being raised. Verity does, after all, refer to 'Muslim Somali rapists', and in that context the language may indeed become hyperbolic. Since Muslims are not a race, you must be referring to Somalis. If reference to distinguishing racial features (if they be) is 'racism', then the Chinese cannot have 'slitty eyes', white people cannot by pale, and black people cannot be black - rapists or not.
Iain, "we Muslims"? I didn't know that you are Muslim. As much as her mother seemed to understand the difficulties of being of a different religion in a christian country, Yasmin A-B doesn't appear to want to "fit in" "appease" or similarly integrate with this country which (by and large, in various forms) is Christian. The mea culpa should apply to all those people who subjugate Christianity to make those loudmouths from other faiths feel that they can over-rule and over-run us by your lack of back-bone in standing up for Christianity. I am Catholic; I know that there is a lot wrong with my faith, but I also know that there is more that is right.
Balls I have noticed a few of her things in the Standard which are grovelling to righty whitey she is just worried about becoming utterly irrelevant as the world tires of whiney Muslims and their endless complaint that our behaviour in our own country is not good enough for them. She is scared about her carreer and rightly so .
Its always been a crock anyway . Didn`t marry a Muslim did she , oh no . I saw how she tried to excuse this by saying look how many mixed race couples there are .
There are indeed and the Newmanias are one ,but we are both English and proud to be so. Neither of us bitches about the English for living and neither of us fills our wallets by saying how misunderstsood the wonderful Muslims are.
It would be a mistake to take her seriously enough to bother really , a mistake I have just made
PS I do not wish to read anymore of the offensive pontificating of BV.Free speech must have limits and his craven maiden auntish fetid delicacy is beyond any limit I can imagine. I would further suggest a punishment like being stoned or perhaps cutting off his typing fingers.He would consider it a fitting end no doubt .
To the Archbishop Cranmer - thank you for your eloquence and clarity of thought.
To foolish posters who attack me because I think independently of those who would circumscribe my thoughts:
All the Somali murderers and rapists who are pictured in the newspapers fit my description. This is not my fault.
If you want to come to their defence, fine. Make a defence for them. Don't come flying in bashing the messenger. Make your argument.
Yorkshire Lass writes: "through it may become a deeper understaning and tolerance of other people's beliefs." Do you "tolerate" anything as long as they say it's their "belief"? Female genital mutilation is a belief sincerely held by most Somalis. Marrying first cousins for generations and generations, resulting in severe degradation of the gene pool is a sincerely held belief among Pakistanis.
The Saudis are extremely sincere that a woman can never be seen in public in the company of any male, unless it is a close family member. Guardians of Saudi adult women's chastity can be six or seven year old boys. Just as long as they're close family members. They believe this very sincerely.
Many muslims, especially in Pakistan, believe that a woman would be better off dead than marrying an infidel, and to that end, do her the favour of murdering her before she gets the chance.
Halal slaughter is against every British sensibiliity and indeed, it's against the law and is horrifically cruel to animals. But the muslims "believe" in it. Does that make it OK?
Do you sincerely want to learn to tolerate the intolerable, Yorkshire Lass?
Before you judgemental, politically correct feeble-wits race to paint "racist" on my posts, be aware that I have commented in the past that one of the most chic, clever, staggeringly beautiful and brave women in the world is Aayan Hirsi Ali, a Somali. I judge her independently, as a human, not as "a black person". I also respect King Abdullah - in fact, I'm a big fan of Jordan by and large - and before him, his father, King Hussein, and I have nothing but admiration for the beautiful, intelligent and brave Queen Rania, who actually takes her shift driving a Red Crescent ambulance.
Archbishop Sentamu is also wonderful.
What cowards you people are that you have been complicit in the washing of your brains by the left - the better to control you, my dear. All they had to do was hand you the soap.
But, Yorkshire Lass, heaven forfend that you should use "robust" (you put it in quotes for some reason) language. Mild language has worked so well in the past, has it not?
John Trenchard - In my experience of Muslim countries at Christmas, they love it. The carols, the bells, the shop windows decorated with cotton wool snow. They don't care about it as the birth of Jesus, but they do respect that it's a sacred holiday that anyone can join in, and they do! They cheerfully wish one "Merry Christmas!" it just sounds like so much fun! Christmas seems to cheer everyone up, worldwide. (Except the Birmingham Council.)
Newmania - Foetid delicacy. I like that.
For smarty pants, superior, borissimo Jasmin ... "I can hear her mellow voice today, and do as she bid."
How touching.
The past tense of the verb 'to bid' is bade.
Too bad you never picked up our language.
Iain,
Verity's comment at 7.48pm is almost laughably racist, in a 1950s throwback kind of way. It is also hideously islamophobic. Muslims are not 'stone agers'. A small, unrepresentative minority of those who call themselves Muslims hold some very nasty views, true, but the overwhelming majority, particularly in Britain, are the same as everyone else - some lovely, some crap. Not to mention the fact that 'stone age' is a meaningless insult. (I would suggest, Verity, that if you want to be a more effective bigot you go with 'medieval' next time - that seems to be in vogue with the moronic Right these days).
Hopefully, you haven't had time to moderate this comments section, Iain. Otherwise, if you're letting this filth go through, your self-righteous complaints about the tone of debate on here will hold absolutely no water in future.
Verity -
1) See above for why 'stone age' is a moronic insult.
2) The "advanced, enlightened society" of which you speak 'belongs' to British Muslims as much as it belongs to me (or to you, if you are British).
3) The use of the 'some of my best friends/some of my most admired public figures are black' argument has always been a hilariously reliable indicator of a defensive racist.
4) Deceitful smears about Somalis, Pakistanis, or any other racial group have no place in civilised debate. It is not acceptable in any other context to make wild, unsupported generalisations - why do you expect it to be so here?
Please, please, please, I beg you: go do your homework properly, not from the editorial pages of right wing rags, and stop churning out this bigoted rubbish.
Actually the description large, slack, stupid faces and bovine eyes fits 99% of the chav scum that infest the streets of Britain. I'd say the Somalis who so vex Verity appear to have integrated a little too well into their new environment.
Beyond their shared adherence to a particular manner of talking to God (something I suspect the Somalichavs do far less than they might claim), they have about as much in common with other muslims as I do with Greek Orthodox monks.
So after years of moaning and whinging about her adopted country JAB thinks a few words of lukewarm praise can make it all better?
People like her and people like Lee Jasper et al have made a good living at playing the victim and have become 'famous' in their attempts to portray the British and its history as racist and evil!
I hold nothing but contempt for these parrasites who have taken so much from us and given so little back!
Why the fake patriotism now? Why the 'ersatz' love of Great Britain?
The majority of Muslims are here for what they can take from us! The majority of Muslims hate us like poison! The majority of third world immigrants are here to take what they can however they can! The real question is, how can we encourage the minority of good immigrants to integrate while encouraging the majority of freeloaders to leave?
Just a note about Veritys post, Who in their right mind would knowingly import tens of thousands of the most violent and lawless third world immigrants from places like Somalia and expect them to adjust to a first world enviroment!
Er, labour! thats who.
We now have armed Somali gunmen on our streets and in our towns who care nothing for our Nation, they have no education in civilisation either, they do know about the Somali customs of gunlaw and warlords!
Just what the hell are we doing importing readymade gangsters/criminals from all over the world while keeping out law abiding and educated immigrants out?
As far as I am concerned JAB, too little too late!
Here is the tragedy of Great Britain.
Over the decades millions of third world immigrants have been welcomed into England and they have brought their third world beliefs and customs with them and no effort has been made to tell these immigrants that their third world beliefs and customs have no place in a first world Nation!
The native English have been forced to accept these third world values as equal in moral terms to our own first world values. Any dissent has been crushed by playing the racist card!
The above tragedy has been compounded by the sustained attack on our history and culture by a socialist/leftist elite who have moved Heaven and Earth to destroy pride in our historical achievements!
England is now paying the high price of a failed experiment called 'multiculturism'.
Call me a racist if you will, but like many people I no longer give a damn about being smeared as such!
Halal butchery ....I `m not sure the British sensibiliy cares much one way or the other . Fox hunting lost its legal challnge the other night. It is banned on the grounds of cruelty to an animal 80,000 of which are shot each year.A clear case of double standards
A small, unrepresentative minority of those who call themselves Muslims hold some very nasty views, true,-
Au contraire , it is not a small minority , successive surveys have shown that the majority hold unacceptable views. The extent to which the majority is complicit in terrorism is a matter of debate but if the British Muslim Council are anything to go by it is an institutionally aggressive religion. I need hardly remind you of the many popular fascist Imams dotted about all of whom have large followings
Furthermore Muslims , according to an ICM survey are by far the most racist group in the country having registered levels of disgust at the thought of a Black in the family vertiginously above the indigenous people. In fact this is true of all surveyed ethnic groups but Muslims are the worst . We do not need any lectures from such people , who , for the most part feel homosexual people should be buried alive or thrown off a cliff. That , at least is what their vile leaflets tell us left at Bus stops for gay men and women to browse at their leisure
The use of the 'some of my best friends/some of my most admired public figures are black' argument has always been a hilariously reliable indicator of a defensive racist.
You state that this is a hilarious ‘defence’ in the traditional way but you do not say why. If one is differentiating between the ethnicity of a group and the colour they happen to be this seems to me to be a good demonstration ones point of view is not prejudiced in a primitive way.
It is no more racist to dislike and criticise a group of people by reason of their ethnicity than it is to criticise members of a political Party or indeed any group= bound by beliefs and identity . It has nothing to do with race .
Another thing , amongst those who suffer worst from the grotesque distortion of culturally relativist are , of course , members of their community , especially women , in this case. Also all those denied proper education or indeed access to post enlightenment thought not to say the society of their fellow English and the ability to leave their barbaric culture in the past.
By defending and in fact “Denying “these attitudes, just as most young Muslims deny they had anything to do with 7.7. you are encouraging racism , prejudice and inflicting a warped pointless life on all the people who might be set free by entry into the dominant and demonstrably superior culture of the Western English. Naturally this ghettoisation suits the Labour Party well as they need an endless flow of victims to justify their paternalist policies . God knows what discussions go on between the Muslim friends of Labour and the Party given their record of selling favours . This organisation, by the away does not declares it members unlike the criticised Midland Industrial Council ( which does )
Labour Donations
Muslim Friends of Labour - £ 330,950.00 (members not declared)
Types of donations:
Cash (12 donations) totalling: £ 330,950.00
The "advanced, enlightened society" of which you speak 'belongs' to British Muslims as much as it belongs to me (or to you, if you are British
How do you work that out ? Nationality is not a matter if legal entitlements (although that is all British now means) it is sort if living tradition. Including cultural attributes and loyalties .Without such loyalties conspicuously absent from the Muslim community , then there is no sense in which there is a “we” and a nation is no more than a trailer Park for whoever pitches up. Newcomers have no right whatsoever to abuse a proud thousand year story in this way and it shows a staggering arrogance that they should continually do so behaving more like 19th century imperialists than economic migrants
yorkshirelass said...
"Iain, "we Muslims"? I didn't know that you are Muslim."
Don't you recognise a quote?
The best way to deal with racists posting on this site is to publicise their remarks, and I thank Iain for letting so much neanderthal, "white-flight", "I'm a "racialist" not a racist" brain-rot through.
It shows the true picture of the nature of some people.
Thankfully, they are getting older and their views will die with them.
I look forward to celebrating Christmas with my friemnds and family. There'll be fights over politics and the state of the world and the last mince pie, and we can all who live here be thankful that we have the freedom and peace to be able to do that.
Verity and Neworon are Labour stooges sent here to sicken the floating voter into voting Labour again.
The Jews "walk differently than we do. They have flat feet. They have longer arms than we do. They speak differently than we do"
The latter is a quote from "Die Judenfrage im Unterricht" - a Nazi monograph on the educating the the youth of Germany.
In the illustrations accompanying the book, just so they get the point,
"Almost all the illustrations of Jewish figures have the following characteristics: The body is usually stocky, sometimes thin; the posture is crooked or bent; the feet are flat; the hair is dark; there is a lot of coarse body hair. The face usually has dark, bulging eyes; a crooked or bent nose; hanging eyelids; a hanging underlip; a heavy beard."
There is no doubt that Somalis and many other groups have imported more than their fair share of disease and crime to this country - don't argue - it's a statistical reality - but when they are described in the terms used by Verity I think this cannot be helpful in any way. I consider Verity's remarks to be racist, but I do not consider racism per se to be a hanging offense. It is a point of view and is a cultural perspective that can be supported by examples of the raft of backwardness and genocide perpetrated by certain racial types.
Points of view are what forums like this are for. Those who seek to kill this debate with glib homilies are the true fascists.
Dear Matthew,
The only "moron" on this blog is you!
Lets have a look at what you support shall we?
The systamatic subjugation of women and the inhuman and degrading conditions that most Muslim women endure around the world!
Female genital mutilation as practiced by stone age African immigrants!
The buying and selling of female children for money or passports or business dealings!
The murder of women who wish to live a free western lifestyle or who wish to marry for love!
The willingness of the majority muslim residents to support suicide killers in Britain and praise their actions!
But of all the things that many native British cannot forgive is the outright treason of many immigrants against a country that gave them santuary and safety while others turned them away!
I dont think for one second that the likes of Matthew have had to live in one of the many third world ghettos that now stain our land!
The worm has turned! the native peoples of Great Britain who have been quiet for so long are starting to get angry.
"no effort has been made to tell these immigrants that their third world beliefs and customs have no place in a first world Nation!"
Cassandra, that is completely untrue.
First, you seem to think that there are no civilised immigrants from 3rd world countries. Then you
opine that there is no education or means of assimmilation.
Who on earth do you mean by "native English?"
By the way, "bid" is an alternative past tense of the verb "to bid".
If you want to be arcane, you may also say "I have bidden"!
Stay in the stone age if you like, but most of us Modern Brits are moving forward, along with modern Muslims. We aren't leaving.
sicken the floating voter into voting Labour again
35 % of Labour voters say theuir second choice Party is the BNP . This is why the coded racist comments have gushed forth from Brown , Blears and Hodge especially. This morning in aleaked letter Alan Roughey , a Liberal , wrote complaining that Indians people did not think in term of our democracy and only supported tribally displaying , he said " Great energy in claiming facilites for themslves".
I am a Conservative and as such believe in a tolerant country but one that retains its English character. Given that the Englaish are demonstrably more tolerant than the competing cultures the one depends on the other. The Conservative Party has made great strides with Black and ethnic communities many of whom are fed up with the old politics of the ghetto and want an end to enforced victimhood promoted by anti family , anti education and anti aspiration policies .
Your patronising cant is the past.
Find someone else to pity
Verity inserted "Muslim" before "Somali" in order to slither from the charge of racism. It didn't work.
Too long under the hairdrier, and not enough time on grammar homework - "bid" is the past tense (bade is alternative, and p.p. is "bid" or "bidden")
"the Englaish are demonstrably more tolerant than the competing cultures"
Since when? During the 1000 year story you are so obsessed with, where is your evidence of that?
Tell it to the European cities and tourist resorts are lovely youths delight in trashing, and wallowing in greasy "full" breakfasts.
THe Dam Busters theme, anyone? Lovely.
The Tories stand for arrogance and idleness - what else explains a £2m IHT threshold (OK £1m if you're thick)? Tory kids will be able to retire nice and young and waste their days in inane pursuits such as reading your drivel.
She must have a book coming out soon.
The Tories stand for arrogance and idleness - what else explains a £2m IHT threshold (OK £1m if you're thick)? Tory kids will be able to retire nice and young and waste their days in inane pursuits such as reading your drivel.
The Labour Part is the one which pays people for idleness and incapacity benefit is well known to be a sick note culture as even so colossal a prat a Peter Hain admitted . The whole point is to encourage working which the Labour Party has not by taxing at extreme marginal rates..
On IHT , taken in isolation you views would make some sense but the history of OHT and the tax environment ,pensions , and so on make it a different issue .Sadly as I am working I do not have the time to explain . The Public sector who vote Labour retire scandalously , five years earlier with gold plated pensions which are a liability of about £40,000 per household . 4000 ex civil servants have £1millionm pension pots .Ordinary working families work forever to maintain Labour’s slums which they have to keep.
the Englaish are demonstrably more tolerant than the competing cultures"
Since when? During the 1000 year story you are so obsessed with, where is your evidence of that?Tell it to the European cities and tourist resorts are lovely youths delight in trashing, and wallowing in greasy "full" breakfasts.
THe Dam Busters theme, anyone? Lovely.
Inventing Parliamentary Democracy
Inventing Unions
First Industrialised Country
Inventor of capitalism, modern Insurance especially
Philosophical heart of the enlightenment
Inventor of football, rugby etc.
Leading light in Women’s emancipation
Protection of children
Invention of modern science and the scientific method
Universal suffrage
Birthplace of the world`s greatest writer and the world’s leading language
Resisted Napoleon, Philip of Spain and (since you mention Damn busters) Hitler
Home of Common Law and principles of jurisprudence admired and copied the world over
Banned Slavery .( Muslims are still enslaving black Africans to this day)
Sorry about the greasy spoon but the “English Breakfast “ is an internationally loved repast, in fact one of our few food exports.
It is a measure of the backwardness of the Muslim world that the Jewish world with a population of 12 million has won 163 Nobel prizes, 151 of them in science, while the Muslim world has produced only two Nobel laureates in science.
You have to go back to the dark ages and that myth has been exploded onn many occasions http://mwillett.org/atheism/islamicgoldenage.htm
....now what did the Muslims bring to the Party then ...remind me ?
I was picking you up on "tolerance" not "inventions"
You left out the colonisations, the invasions.
Tax has indeed gone up - to around 41% rather than the circa 39.5 % inherited from Tory Heaven. Big deal.
Everyone agrees Labour has put more people into work - Tory policy was and is to put a lot more out of work.
Newmania -
Trying to steer the debate towards "them and us" not only digs you further into a very smelly hole, it actually plays into the hands of the terrorist extremists. They want you to use the tone you use, and would applaud Cassandra's attempt at "anger". It's what they do best.
The only useful weapon against extremism is tolerance. Not passive, decadent tolerance of the "New" type, but active engagement. Don't hide, don't "fly" in white retreat, but take it on.
They HATE humour, so write another poem, and direct it against the ideas you oppose, not against particularised "groups" (whether races or nations).
James said, "The Tories stand for arrogance and idleness - what else explains a £2m IHT threshold (OK £1m if you're thick)? Tory kids will be able to retire nice and young and waste their days in inane pursuits such as reading your drivel."
Dirty European Socialist, is that you?
Thank you, Iain, for not listen to those bossy trolls who want you to censor this correspondence. The "Ooh Miss, he said a rude word!" gang.
. Most of the list pertains to tolernace as well as genius .Emancipated the Catholics in the early 19th century as well as abandoning slavery and by any measure at all far far more tolerant of difference than Muslims here or abroad. Noone thought Empire was wrong at that time you are anachronistic.( Most Muslim states still do not and Islam specifically requires the creation of a world caliphate )
Tax
State governed expenditure is at about 43% as against 38% ( ahead of Germany) but as this was in fifteen years of growth the revenue is an addtional 40% to the exchequer( £250 billion plus the £60 billion borrowed). Mostly wasted.The pain is chiefly felt in Housing Market. This is why many are actually worse off after all this than they were in 1997 despite working twice as hard.
Incidentally this is why the the governments plan to grab Housing equity was so infuriating it is the only thing many have gained for all their work.
More people are in work because the state employing them to do nothing also because opf the world wide boom driven by low tax developing economies sucking up Labour . Dues to the anti competitve regime we have performed the worst in the Anglosphere now we are entirely unprepared for the chilly conditions to come .
It has been a historic missed opportunity and an act of legal theft from the working population and incidentally the cause of unemployment under Thatcher was the Union friendly and economically disatorous Policies of the Callaghan period and before that .
Who says so ? The Labour party publicly who have stuck to her Union reform and Monetary ideas. Over tennyears the old errors have returned and now the lefts man is in charge The Indians have got into the whiskey and its all chaos ..as the electiorate have noticed.
Wake Up
The West produce far better tobogganists as well Newmania - not a great comparison matey.
I don't know what "Dirty Europesn Socialist" is, but I'm not it.
Presumably you think there is a limited number of people out here that disagree with far-right nonesense. You're wrong.
It's not 43, it's closer to 40%
Over a third of tax revenue is generated by the Financial Service in the City of london. These revenues would certainly have flown to Frankfurt if the increasingly Europhobic Tory party had been returned to office in 1997.
Thatcher would never have dreamt of the minimum wage (to remove people from the benefits system), she was too busy scratching her head and wondering why her "trickle down" economics led to wealth "trickling" away - most of it to tax havens, but a considerable amount to the unemployed in the form of welfare.
"Most of the list pertains to tolernace as well as genius"
Liar.
Go back to sleep.
My gaffe was worth £150k in 97, when i bought it.
I've just sold it for £485k.
Worked on it a bit, but not bad, eh? It's earned more than I have!
This is why many are actually worse off after all this than they were in 1997 despite working twice as hard.
Ha! What line of business ar eyou in? Tallow-melting?
I reckon you must have been extremely incompetent to have that record.
"Islam specifically requires the creation of a world caliphate"
No it doesn't, any more than Christianity requires there to be "one holy catholic and apostolic church"
You really are talking rubbish.
I get up to a nice calm morning and, oh my! - the Trotskyite Thought Control Regiment has been called out and taken up positions!
Pvte Matthew - You have an awfully trite mindset, dear. Do try to think for yourself. The sensibilities of the "asylum seekers", whose lives are in such danger that we must take them in (although France is the former colonial power) are crude and Stone Agerish. Their "religion" is Dark Ages, so in that sense you are right. But islam was adopted by a bunch of Stone Age people in the desert and a lot of them never moved on.
Too bad that those whose lives we protect by letting them stay go on to murder our own people. What elevated their right to safety over those of the lives of the indigenous citizenry?
The use of the 'some of my best friends/some of my most admired public figures are black' argument has always been a hilariously reliable indicator of a defensive racist.
Actually, none of my best friends is black. And I wouldn't use such an argument in any case as it sounds apologetic and defensive, which I am not. I an admirer of Somalian Hirsi Ali. I don't know whether I would even like her in person.
Please, please, please, I beg you: go do your homework properly, not from the editorial pages of right wing rags, and stop churning out this bigoted rubbish. Beg your brains out, little one. I don't take orders from HM Thought Police.
Oh, and I hadn't realised there were any "right wing rags" in Britain. Could you point me to some, please? It would be quite refreshing to read a non-politically correct view in a British publication.
The Remittance Man - I largely agree with you, and that the sullen, stupid, thick expressions on the faces of Somalian "refugee" murderers and rapists does indeed mirror that of many British chavs. But we were discussing people who had been granted asylum; not people who are here by birthright. But I certainly grant your point.
Cassandra - not just armed, greedy, lawless Somali thugs roaming out streets, but they do not recognise the authority of British law. Did you know that, Matthew, naive little one? The only court they recognise is their Gar - a [ahem] "court" of "the [tribal] elders" that applies shariah law. There are several of these abominations in London. And probably other cities, too.
You are correct that Labour intentionally unpicked the tapestry of our history and our civil society. I wish them all great harm.
Newmania's post is factually correct, so don't dive in with your faux emotional One Worlderism, Thought Police. Not only is islam a nasty, aggressive belief system in Britain, but look what they are doing in Paris and have accomplished so far during Festive Car Burning Season for the last three years. Last year there were almost 4,000 cars torched. (By the way, the French loathe them. Sweden seldom encountered the crime of rape before the islamics descended. Now, it is a common crime and the perps, in relation to their numbers, are way, way, way overrepresented. I seem to recall that they bombed Madrid's largest railway station in the cause of their "religion". The Thai army is fully occupied trying to get this vicious infestation in their law-abiding country defeated. The story is the same in the Philippines. In fact, wherever there's a violent trouble spot in the world, it's the adherents of ol' Mo'
Who can forget the juvenile tantrum of Cartoon Rage? And who can forget the Danish imam who slipped three genuinely offensive cartoons into the envelope with the genuine Danish ones before he jetted off to Riyadh to cause violence and mayhem?
Newmania writes that muslims: ...for the most part feel homosexual people should be buried alive or thrown off a cliff. That , at least is what their vile leaflets tell us left at Bus stops for gay men and women to browse at their leisure. In Iran, they hang them from high cranes so, to be fair, everyone can get a good look.
I would commend the Trot fleas on this thread to reread the last few paras of Newmania's excellent, reasoned post,but their little brains were tacked shut in the Sixth Form common room and they've never emerged.
anonymous 10:34 - Your home life sounds hellish.
Anonymous something-or-other (who cares?) you are twitting Cassandra for my post. The past tense of bid can indeed be bidden if used with an auxilliary verb: He was bidden to leave. In our language, we call this "the past perfect". However, the simple past tense of bid is bade. "I bade him go."
Anonymous 11:11 a.m. Verity inserted "Muslim" before "Somali" in order to slither from the charge of racism. It didn't work. Gosh, thanks for getting inside my mind and telling me why I wrote as I did! Tell me, what do I want for lunch?
Interesting, in a boring kind of way, how those high-kickers The Trotsky Trolls never answer a single one of Newmania's factual observations.
When Labour came to power, government revenues were just over 37.3 per cent of GPD, and for 2007-8 they are expected to nudge just above 40 per cent - a substantial increase, but not as great as Newmania suggests.
Gideon would produce budgets that are tax-neutral, and Camoron will continue to embarrass himself in front of the Glaswegians. The rest of us just get on and make a living, despite Govt policy rather than because od it
James 1:20 - Trying to steer the debate towards "them and us" not only digs you further into a very smelly hole, it actually plays into the hands of the terrorist extremists. They want you to use the tone you use,
"A very smelly hole" - oh! the moral rectitude! The prudery!
James, James, James - put aside your adolescent conspiracy fantasies and do some reading, there's a good chappie. "They" don't give a monkey's what tone you use. Their mission is to convert you to islam by reason or at the point of a sword or gun or bomb. You can adopt a pleasant tone or an unpleasant tone that reeks of your "smelly hole" - it is a matter of indifference to them. Convert or die.
Have you ever read anything about this religion you are defending? You don't even understand that islam does require a world caliphate. Read the koran.
Islamics believe that being islamic is the natural order of things. Like the sun coming up and going down. Like the moon coming out. Mankind is naturally islamic. If you resist this divine order, you have to be persuaded to worship their god or killed as an affront against nature.
Not only are you a silly socialist troll, but you're an ignorant one.
What a shame that no-one reads the Indy. Particularly some of more voiciferous of our muslim countrymen!
As usual, Verity staggers up to the line, looks at it, tries to cross it for effect - and trips up!
Verity - grow up you sad, stupid person. People would listen to your arguments more if you were not to vicious!
The West produce far better tobogganists as well Newmania - not a great comparison matey.
Better sand pits , better sun tan lotion etc , better music , better human rights better camels probably ...etc.
Presumably you think there is a limited number of people out here that disagree with far-right nonesense. You're wrong.
Centre right -and excluding those who are paid by the government 8 million, welfare / incap..5000,000 those in state subidised industry , etc. how many people actually do vote for the LABOUR Party . I mean why would you . ? How many people do you think actually get up thinking’ I know I `ll go to work and then hand my money over to that slimy bureaucrat because he will probably know better then I what to do with it. More voted Conservative than Labour in the last election in England and with 69 seats stolen in the devolved Celtic countries by an absurd piece of palpably unjust gerrymandering I see no legitimacy whatsoever for this government , a government we were specifically promised we were not going to get. If Brown has a vision then we need an election to hear it and decide if we want it. It appears we do not
It's not 43, it's closer to 40
I was quoting Niall Ferguson 43 % a better source than you( just slightly) .The £250 billion was from the Spectator the other day .
These revenues would certainly have flown to Frankfurt
Where did you get that nugget? The Beano ? How many people in the Parliamentary Party have business experience 2 is it ? 3 ? Just invention. The minimum wage creates unemployment although I can see there is case for it there is not when you lose control of the border so 500,000 illegal immigrants are working outside its influence. How you work out it gets people off benefits I have no idea when this is exactly the reverse effect. Its an unreal argument anyway as marginal rates are up to 90% before your free house at those levels. Who agrees . The Labour Party of course hence Tax Credits which was actually designed to do that job . Delivery catastrophic and it has not worked .
That enough lessons in Labour Party thinking for now .I`ll give you a lesson in the comparative theologies Islam and Christianity some other time gotta go clowns.
Its been a fretful day and I though it fitting to end with these words of peace and love from the gentle Koran....and there are lots and lots and lots more
002:190-191: [2.190] …fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you…[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
002:193: …fight with them…
002:216-218: [2.216] Fighting is enjoined on you…[2.217]…fighting in it. Say: Fighting in it is a grave matter…persecution is graver than slaughter… [2.218]…strove hard in the way of Allah
002:244: …fight in the way of Allah
Come to think about its a suprise its legal
James: Dirty European Socialist is a blogger (http://dirtyeuropeansocialist.blogspot.com/)who used to post here & with G. Fawkes. I can see now that your spelling is better than his.
"LOads" whoever you are your post has nothing to do with Muslims in Britain, unless you're making an obscure reference to immigration's effect on housing supply and therefore prices.
2.43 pm
Of course Christianity is "one holy catholic and apostolic church", all the rest are apostates.
Wow. Good luck, David Cameron. If this is the Tory 'core vote' then you've got big, big problems.
Not A Fan of Verity writes: "People would listen to your arguments more if you were not to vicious!"
No, they wouldn't. Trots don't listen. They have their agenda and they know where they want to go with it.
Judging by the ignorance displayed on this thread, they don't read, either. Read something about islam other than propaganda from the fragrant Inayat Banglawangla and the fundamentalist Muslim Council. Your simple-minded illusions are laughable.
Anyway, getting back Yasmina Alibaba-Broon. I don't like her! I don't like what she says at all. She's a nasty mean spirited and ungrateful hag. I wouldn't believe a word that comes out of her mouth and her Mother probably didn't say those words at all, I mean why reference them now? Why do I think like this? I saw her appearance on question time just after 9/11, that's why!
Other than the trolls and their usual lefty crap, most other contributors have summed the whole business very well.
Muslims have a lot to thank us for, no really, it's the other way round.
http://uppompeii1.uppompeii.com/2007/12/10/he-who-pays-the-piper-calls-the-tune.aspx
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1719968.ece
http://www.underthecarpet.co.uk/Pages/NewsArticle.php?num=2195
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2005/apr/04/localgovernment.politics
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/4310965.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/6613769.stm
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2409833.ece
http://www.peterboroughtoday.co.uk/news/Former-mayor-is-charged-following.3160219.jp
http://www.theasiannews.co.uk/news/s/1019288_man_jailed_after_impersonating_voter
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lancashire/6178224.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lancashire/4425519.stm
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article2788987.ece
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2005/apr/04/localgovernment.politics
The Eradication of National Identity
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/865
http://www.met.police.uk/wanted/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7092707.stm
http://www.met.police.uk/wanted/othercases.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7092711.stm
http://iamanenglishman.com/rogues_gallery.php
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2409833.ece
http://www.west-midlands.police.uk/wanted/index.asp
If you even mention this, the Govt will Prosecute you for it (TWICE !!)
and if they fail, they will change te law to make it easier to shut you up next time.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2538090.ece
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2237940.ece
http://newnation.org/NNN-UK-Europe.html
http://thefallenlist.blogspot.com/
http://warband.wordpress.com/
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/018862.php#comments
http://bloodandtreasure.typepad.com/blood_treasure/2005/05/i_was_a_troll_f.html#comments
http://warband.wordpress.com/category/paedophilia/
http://www.crimestoppers-uk.org/wanted/ukmostwanted/
Our Politicians are Totally Corrupted by Power
http://www.tpuc.org/node/34
http://www.bnp.org.uk/articles/liars_oct04.htm
http://nationalistblog.blogspot.com/2007/08/germany-and-eu-to-legalise-paedophilia.html
Blair, No Remorse, War on a Lie 1 Million dead, 300 British Troops and he has no regrets.
http://www.truthnews.us/?p=882
Blair Knew no WMD's
http://www.truthnews.us/?p=760
D U Munitions
http://prisonplanet.com/articles/november2007/201107_b_Radioactive.htm
Where will it all End for Britain, and the British
http://uk.wrs.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geumd.bSxHzxIA2VlLBQx.;_ylu=X3oDMTFjNjlhZTk0BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMjkEY29sbwNhYzIEdnRpZANVSzAyNjNfMjYzBGwDV1Mx/SIG=11osv4b7l/EXP=1194180350/**http%3A//blog.ilanamercer.com/%3Fp=378
http://www.ksg.harvard.edu/news/opeds/2003/power_kill_country_am_1203.htm
http://deathofjohannesburg.blogspot.com/
http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2007/09/onethird_of_sas.php
We are well on our way to becoming a thord world cesspit. Blair and his EU Cronies will be living in the EU.
we will be living in the cesspit.
http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/britain/
Hatfield Girl - Angliacans use the same form of words - it's called the Creed (where is Crmaner when you need him - he'd explain it far better than I will).
The word 'catholic' simply means 'universal', and does not refer to the 'Roman' catholic Church (aka the church of Rome).
There are christians who regard themselves as 'catholics' but who worship outside of the Roman church - High Church Anglicans for one, and Eastern Orthodox for another.
Many of the catholic persuassion (which has it's own theological perspectives, which are similar despite demoninational differences) wish to see a unified 'catholic (as in universal)' church, thus reversing the schism of the reformation, but not reverting to what they regard as pre-reformation erronious doctrine. Google the Oxford Movement for more!
They are catholic, simply not roman catholic.
Many people do it, but don't confise the labels and the words - they do not always mean what they appear.
The last post logged in at around 12 hours ago. The spontaneity is making my head spin!
Treacle flowing on an icy day.
Immediacy, which used to be so much of the energy and fun on this blog - batting responses back and forth - is, I think gone for good, not because Iain has become more cautious or judgemental, but because he's otherwise engaged. And very good luck to him.
Meanwhile Iain Dale's Diary addicts will seek their adrenalin elsewhere.
Devil's Kitchen, for example.
I no sooner posted than Iain waved everyone in. So, sorry.
But 12 hours is too much time. I could have got something posted faster by sending a runner with a cleft stick.
Cranmer's Understudy - Yes, Catholic just means universal, as you say.
Having read all there comments it sounds as if you should be launching a new newspaper next year Iain. Now what could it be called? The People's Observer...
Cramner's Understudy - thank you for giving examples of the difference between schismatic and apostate.
Verity still can't quite grasp the grammar.
"to bid"
Past Participle : "Bidden" OR "BID"
Past Historic : "Bade" OR "BID"
Must try harder.
I'm not addressing the vitriolic insufferable nonesense - it speaks for itself and adequately demonstrates the paucity of intellect of Verity and Newman.
How can anyone hope to be taken seriously when all they can do is lift out of context meaningless quotes from the Koran in order to attack moderates? It's like saying that the vicar of St Martin-in-the Fields believes that linen is wrong.
The idea that the ending of our slave trade proves our tolerance! Ha ! The very idea!!!
I'm off to read the Beano - it makes much more sense than the risible immature ill-informed tosh from the Far-Right dullards here.
Cranmer's Understudy
Good points, but there's no confusion to clear up.
Ironically, Celtic Catholicism was practised in Ireland before Rome sent over their bullies to ban marriage in the clergy and grab the land of deceased bachelor priests.
Celtic Catholicism worked very well - it was a Matriarchal syste, with pplenty of female priests, and worked with /tolerated pagans and their practices, recognising the differences but allowing them. Rome got in the way of that, more's the pity.
The problem with Islam is that the language used both by some of its opponents and practitioners dehumanises individuals; every time we get a report about a Muslim "community leader" (elected by whom, by the way?) it reinforces the idea that Muslims are not first and foremost, individuals. As a passionate individualist, this bothers me. On the other hand, you have bigots like Verity making their vile generalisations about people on the basis of their facial appearances; as another commenter put it, one might say the same about the dull-eyed chavs who hang around street corners with knives in their pockets. If we talk about humans as though they were pack animals, it is a small step to treating them accordingly.
But perhaps it is best for Iain to allow such comments: you can really see what people think; and it aint pretty.
Hatfield Girl: "Schismatic & Apostate". Very nicely put!
Ah, Jonathan Pearce, the prefect's prefect, emerges from the headmaster's office; the universal hall monitor, always ready with a prim reprimand.
Jonathan reads what he wants to read into posts, depending on how he feels about the poster. Read the whole thread, Jonathan. I had readily granted Remittance Man's point that the Somali criminals' characteristics of stupid, slack jawed faces and bovine eyes are shared by tens of thousands of indigenous welfare class males. I pointed out, though, that the indigenes are here by right. The lawless Somalis are here for some reason that has never been shared with the electorate, and their "asylum" has been elevated over the safety of the British people they have raped and murdered.
Why?
How many countries have you lived in Jonathan? You are so ready with your lectures, yet you seem to have led a rather circumscribed life without much exposure to the world outside Britain.
"If we talk about humans as though they were pack animals ...". Pack animals! Who did, Jonathan? That seems to have sprung from your perfervid imagination. I wonder why. I said they had bovine eyes and readily conceded that so does much of the stupid indigenous male underclass.
I noted that the Somalis are over-represented in violent, feral behaviour and that they do not recognise British law because it isn't run by their Dark Ages diety. They have their gars throughout London and other big cities. These parallel "courts" are illegal. Archbishop Sentamu has expressed his concern about it on several occasions.
Jonathan hands down his considered opinion to the owner of the most successful blog in Britain: "But perhaps it is best for Iain to allow such comments...".
Comment from me would be de trop.
Islam in the West has to be addressed. The subject has to be aired. Refusing to discuss it is interpreted as weakness and lack of resolve. Read your Bat Ye'or. Rread your Oriana Fallaci.
Lived in Easton, inner city Bristol for 17 happy years. Largely Muslim. They always wished us Happy Christmas in the streets on Christmas Day. And the Sikhs partied like nobody's business - indeed, a neighbour told us how much they enjoy our "pagan festivals".
Verity said "How about all those muslim somali rapists, muggers, robbers and murderers, with the large, slack, stupid faces and bovine eyes? Do they approve of us, too."
How very different to our own rapists, muggers, robbers and murderers, with the large, slack, stupid faces and bovine eyes, dear girl. Intolerable. Ours are so much classier, don't you think?
Elby The Beserk - No, dear boy. I think we have a sufficient number of indigenous lawbreakers without importing more. France was the colonial power. Let France give these Somalis "asylum". Perhaps they could apply some of the highly successful methods they have employed to cope with immigrants from their other successful colony, Algeria.
"indeed, a neighbour told us how much they enjoy our "pagan festivals". And you took that as a compliment, did you? Having the birth of Christ and the Assumption referred to as Pagan festivals?
Verity - ridiculous as usual.
Elby's neighbour was making a joke (probably qualifies them for a on-way ticket "home" in your warped view). Origin of Easter any-one? Do a bit of reading V, there's a dear. Perhaps the interesting post above about St Patrick's version of Catholicism would majke a start. Then why don't you wikipede "beltane". You might learn something.
And before I go, anyone who thinks the City were happy to be involved in political interest-rate setting in 1997, by a government torn to shreds over Europe really does need to stop reading the Beano.
Frankfurt was to become the European capital of finance. Brown and Blair changed the destination to London by de-politicising rate setting, and aiming for an adult relationship with our neighbours.
Trotsky Troll James:
1. It's stupid to try to patronise someone you don't know and who cares nothing for your opinion. Men are far more vulnerable than women, so a little self-control will serve you well.
The same message goes to you, as well, Elby The Beserk.
2. James: I think we all know that Christian festivals were held on traditional Pagan festivals and gradually took them over. We know that. Thank you. We have known it since childhood. You have not introduced a new fact or a new thought.
In my post addressed to Jonathan Pearce, I was going to add one final point, but was reminded of the man who, in recounting a complicated incident to a friend, wound up with, "Well, to make a long story short ..." and the friend said, "Too late!"
However, I'm going to add a final point in response to woefully uninformed Jonathan Pearce. Out of the blue, he accused me of likening Somali "asylum seekers" to "pack animals" (which I didn't, of course).
However, just to make the point, they are pack animals. So are we. So is the whole human race. We're like horses and dogs. We live in groups (packs, in case you missed the point and it certainly wouldn't be the first time); we travel in packs. We congregate. We share food. We come to one another's assistance. We are interdependent. Cats are loners. Humans, dogs, wolves, horses, etc., are pack animals.
(I have a feeling Jonathan didn't know the definition of a pack animal and thought it was like a Sherpa donkey.)
Where is Newmania? Where is The Hitch? Where is a sane, informed, articulate person?
Verity, you say "try" as though there were effort involved. You are far too easy.
Name-calling won't acquire greater respect, which is probably why Newmania has left. Perhaps he actually got dressed and ventured outdoors instead.
Thank-you for the half-hearted admission that your attack on Elby's neighbours was weak and silly.
Your problem remains - you are the best friend of those you claim to oppose. Constantly seeking to polarise debate, and demonise perfectly normal people is exactly what Bin Laden would pay you to do.
Now you've mastered the grammar (no comment from you I note!) I bid you good-day. Perhaps you might consider spending some of it trying to develop a degree of insight and discernment before you tap away again.
It seems Tories are very hypocritical about what does and what does not constitute political correctness. For example Mr/Mrs "Little Black Sambo" here is very happy trying to insult blacks, but what about if I decided to set up a blog ID and picture that mocked Homosexuals or Jews?
Tories must understand that the world has changed alot since they were last in power. You wont have another shot at power until 2010. By that time much would have changed again. Im glad you are all stuck in the past. This ensured you cannot win in the foreseeable future!
verity said...
Elby The Beserk - No, dear boy. I think we have a sufficient number of indigenous lawbreakers without importing more. France was the colonial power. Let France give these Somalis "asylum". Perhaps they could apply some of the highly successful methods they have employed to cope with immigrants from their other successful colony, Algeria.
No Verity you ignorant Tory. Italy was the colonial power in Somalia, and just before independence it was a UN protectorate.
The professorial James - the past perfect of "to bid" is "bade".
You say: "Thank-you for the half-hearted admission that your attack on Elby's neighbours was weak and silly."
Don't know where you got that from, except in your overheated fantasy that you have a professorial role to play on this site. There was no admission. No concession. I have no interest in this fellow's neighbours. I've never even heard fo the town he lives in.
You certainly are attached to the minutiae of life and trying to score little Sixth Form points.
The thread is about islam in Britain and I have said it is overly aggressive and must be contained with determination. I referred to the Somali gars. I mentioned Archbishop Sentamu, Bat Ye'or, Orianna Fallaci and you come back with pointless comments about some fellow with muslim neighbours in a town no one's ever heard of.
"We share food. We come to one another's assistance."
I knew you were a one-worder underneath.
Sooooooo easy.
Verity :
"The professorial James - the past perfect of "to bid" is "bade".
The rest of your comment will be read with the knowledge that you persist in ignorance of proper usage of the English language. Look it up!
The past participle of "to bid" is "BID"!!!! ( or bidden ). e.g. "I have bid", or "I have bidden."
The simple past tense is "BID"!!!! (or "bade" e.g. "I bid him..." etc.
#
to score little Sixth Form points.
"The thread is about islam in Britain and I have said it is overly aggressive and must be contained with determination."
Leaving minutiae aside (it was not I who started it with grammatical third form point-scoring, it was you (or thou!)), you have failed to address my charge that you aim to be in the pay of your supposed enemy. They adopre you. *I despise your ideas, and will stick up for moderation with as much aggression as you exhibit for extremism.
Anonymous 8:07: Di sculpa! You're correct! Apologies all round!
OK, so maybe the Eyties could take them in, but they didn't. Odd that.
Silly little James: "One worder"? No. Lots of words keyed in here.
I referred, as I said, to the defining characteristics of pack animals, which group includes humans. Sharing food is what we all do.
Except when the pack mercilessly expels one member, so to speak, who hasn't been pulling its weight.
Watch out for prowling cats and protect your nether regions, James! Not much to tempt the dogs of war, but still, a feline amuse gueule peut-etre ... ?
Off this commie thread.
Yasmin Alibhai-Brown - no thanks, although I would not disrespect her late mother.
I missed the L out of "one-worlder".
Your cat fetish is disturbing - i hope you haven't been inhaling the spray again.
I can't think of an example of some-one being deliberately starved by way of punishment policy - maybe in your part of the world, but not in modern Britain.
Post a Comment