David Davis got a bit of a shock this morning. He's in Washington at the moment meeting US experts on dealing with terrorists. He was settling down to his bacon and eggs in his hotel when he spied a familiar face across the room. It was Martin McGuiness, no doubt in DC on another
IRA Sinn Fein fundraising trip. Suffice to say that no words were exchanged. Not even a few hand gestures...
I think I am correct in remembering that in the early 1990s David Davis introduced a bill into the Commons to prevent Sinn Fein from getting any form of funding from the British taxpayer. The irony now is that Sinn Fein is allowed to raise money abroad, while the Conservative Party isn't.
Note: Diary columns use attribution please
38 comments:
It's St Patrick's Day today which is, for some reason in a city that has a larger Jewish population than Israel, a festive occasion in NYC. Parades, green beer, drunken goodwill towards the Irish, mega donations, methinks.
David Davis can kill with his bare hands.
McGuinness just gets others to do it for him...
McGuiness should be rotting in Guantanamo bay rather than jetting around like some type of statesman.
That said, I guess we have to be pragmatic and try and move forward.
Still think he's scum though.
Yes, he's scum, but the Americans don't know that. The Irish have done a very effective PR job in the United States.
I think it helps us clarify the definition of a terrorist -
Someone who opposes the will of the UK, US or Israeli government.
D'oh, meant to add -
Unless they're Irish.
Davis should have done the honorable thing and gouged out McGuinness' eyes with a spoon. Death to the enemies of the queen. Every member of IRA and Sinn Fein should hang. Time to put down all these Easter Rebel scum.
Yes, I suggested something similar to him and got a rather menacing laugh in return.
Are you sure it wasn't Art Garfunkel?
Verity,
I'm sure your American friends aren't that naive ;)
They know very well what and who it is that they have been/ are supporting.
There's a wider issue here.
Bliar claims resolution of the Irish question as his legacy.
But it was only after 9/11/2001 that the USA shut down Boston, Mass. as the world's terrorist capital hosting OBL, IRA/Noraid, and others.
Excoriated and cut off from funds, Sinn Fein/IRA rushed to the negotiating table.
Bliar's insistence on meeting all IRA demands just lengthened the process by upsetting the Unionists.
Come on people. Get with the programme. Sinn Fein is a serious political party which takes part in and gets a mandate from voters in two international territories.
I wouldn't vote for them at the moment as I would of course back the LPs sister party SDLP and have indeed enjoyed more than a few glasses of the black stuff with Mr Durkin (as I have with the leader of Irish Labour, and the embryo Brit Labour (NI). In fact - apart from Waltergate - my Brighton Conference 2005 was punctuated with a series of comradely talks with them.
The provos have downed tools, and that almost certainly in a more complete way than the murderers of the Protestant Paramilitaries, some of whom are spend their time menacing and monstering on estates in the NW of England to save them carving each other up in Belfast.
Even Cameron has now fessed up to being wrong about South Africa where Mr Mandela was of course a member of the ANC. I'm not sure that he wasn't part of the foolish Tory FCS generation that signed up with Barclays to buttress apartheid ... perhaps speculation on that was wrong ...
Anyway I am horrified that serious Tory commentators and would be Ministers have an attitude to Northern Irish affairs which could throwaway 15 years plus of work to move things on in the North.
The Davis cackle at the idea of executing politicians he does not agree with just proves once again that Dave/id's Cuddly New Tories are in fact same old same old reactionary feckwits.
Pathetic!
We could have written your socialist script for you,Chris Paul, and saved you the trouble of putting down your drink.
Machiavelli's Understudy - You're sure my friends aren't that naive. Well, they probably would be if they lived in the North East - Philadelphia, say. The Irish up there have mythologised themselves. If someone's "an Irish cop" - that is somehow meant to suggest that he's better than other cops. And green beer on St Patrick's Day. And the ridiculous St Patrick's Day parade. (Why?)
This is very much abig city North Eastern phenomenom, although bits of it have trickled down to the saner parts of the country. For instance, I just had an email from a friend in Texas saying he was going out to drink some green beer.
Anyway, where they were raising money was the NE, where the myth of wonderful Ireland has taken a firm root. Not Texas or Arizona, where they have different myths. They do not, as you aver with such confidence, "know very well who and what they have been supporting". Money isn't raised in Texas. But they have bought into the myth that the Irish are somehow special and wonderful. In the South and South West, they have absolutely no idea all about Irish politics. You are all so self-centered. They don't even know that Blair's a socialist. You overestimate Britain's importance in their minds.
If St Patrick's Day is so important to Irish politicians then why don't a few of them actually spend St Patrick's Day in Ireland for once? (Yes, I know the answer is financial.)
I think there's something slightly bizarre about them all trooping off to a foreign country to celebrate it.
chris paul 9.45 PM. You say, "The provos have downed tools ..."
I think you miss the point, significant concessions were made to these murderers, in return for which they undertook, eventually ... not to murder any more people.
As I recall, we did not offer to leave Dr Shipman in medical practice if he promised not to murder any more of his patients, but the principle is exactly the same.
"Come on people. Get with the programme. Sinn Fein is a serious political party which takes part in and gets a mandate from voters in two international territories."
Do you think that getting votes from the fascist inclined makes their murder victims any less dead?
"The provos have downed tools ..."
Gosh they've stopped blowing up children, lets be best friends!
Anyway Denis Donaldson's murder suggestes that they ahve done nothing of the kind.
" The Davis cackle at the idea of executing politicians he does not agree with "
I really hope that you're just playing dumb. You describe people who actually murder opponents as a "serious political party" yet you throw up your hands in horror at the thought of someone joking about it.
The difference being that at least Martin is close to getting into government... Davis is yesterday's man. The only thing he has killed in recent years has been his chance of ever being Tory Leader. Didn't you help him kill that one, Iain?
To be fair Bob, he might not be leader but he's got a hell of a lot more time ahead of him in Government than anyone currently on the Labour benches!
New Labour have now became Old Tory. Hope that your guys enjoy their spell in the unelectable wilderness!
Bob Piper - I don't mind witty, literate opponents, but you're such a jerk.
Just because you, in all your national lack of fame, say that Mr Davis is "yesterday's man" doesn't actually make that so. I assume you understand that.
It means you're petty, snide and malicious.
Bliar's true legacy has been to bury the moderate parties of N.I. politics. Gerry Fitt (SDLP) and David Trimble (OUU) have both disappeared on his watch, to be replaced by Sinn Faen and Paisley's DUP. Thank you. Thank you Mr Bliar. So kind.
Come on, Verity- I can't believe by implication that Americans are stupid.
We all know that they're quite aware of what's happening this side of the Atlantic- they wouldn't have made several films about it otherwise, would they? Whether or not they mythologise the whole Irish freedom fighter bollocks is completely irrelevent.
Chris paul, you daft tit- "The provos have downed tools"?
Has UK-events been sharing some of his stash with you?
They aren't 'tools', as you attempt to equivocate- they're lethal weapons. Do you think they managed to tally up all those civilians with Black and Decker's finest?
I suppose 'weapons' are just something that the evil imperialist British overlords use, aren't they...
Machievelli's Understudy writes: "Come on, Verity- I can't believe by implication that Americans are stupid.
"We all know that they're quite aware of what's happening this side of the Atlantic-".
No, indeed. Americans are not stupid. That is why they are the most successful society in the history of the world.
That they have no idea what's the quarrel between a minute island off a marginally larger - but not terribly - powerful island - all of which would fit into the state of Texas 3 1/2 times - means they don't need you. If they needed you, they'd have been paying attention.
The most successful people in the history of mankind are not stupid. They are just not very interested in you and your local quarrels.
Most would not be able to name the prime minister of Britain or be familiar with the term "prime minsister". Really. Most Americans would not be able to pinpoint Britain on an Atlas. You're a backwater with cute accents.
This doesn't make them ignorant. It makes you igorant. Do you really think the average Roman knew a single thing about the outposts of the Roman Empire?
In the White House, John Howard is regarded as the wiser and more dependable head of government.
You overestimate yourselves. Any Brit who lives in the US will endorse what I say. You're not an issue.
>Verity
Thanks.
I always thought the Special Relationship was a pile of PR carp.
Now I know it is.
I should have known that any thread referring to the IRA would bring Blackface Bob over to deliver a tongue bath to the terrorists.
Nice to see that Cllr Bob Piper is on first name terms with this 'former' member of the IRA. It's a true measure of the man.
As to America's understanding of (even caring about) the UK, I'd echo Verity's comments. Like some here I deal with the USA and Americans pretty regularly. I've never made the mistake of believing that Common Cause = Common Understanding = Common Value. Simply, it doesn't.
The sooner we understand that all this nonsense about 'special relationship' has been swept away by the last ten years, the better. Blair has managed to completely prostitute himself (and all of us, as well). Worse than that, he's managed to acquire a few contagious social diseases whilst in harness, too.
These people are amoral monstrous incompetents.
That exemption on Sinn Fein raising money abroad is supposed to have expired....if he was he is in breach of the law as it stands
Paddy 1
Paddy 2
inn Fein's Foreign Funding Banned.
COPYRIGHT 2004 Financial Times Ltd.
(From Newsletter)
NEW Government guidelines will bar Sinn Fein from fundraising abroad.
Northern Ireland Political Development Minister John Spellar will announce in the House of Commons this week that, from February 2005, the legal loophole which allowed Sinn Fein to become the richest party on both sides of ...
he British government is to close a loophole that has allowed political parties in the North to continue major fundraising abroad.
British parties are banned from accepting any donations above £200 from donors not based in the UK. However, until now, Northern Ireland has been exempt from the ban.
The exemption has been opposed by unionists and conservative politicians, who claim it gives nationalist parties an advantage.
Advertisement
The closing of the loophole could greatly affect Sinn Féin, which benefits from fundraising in countries such as the US and Australia.
Paddy 3
Hang on a sec, Sinn Fein is a registered Political Party in Northern Ireland. If the rules that stop mainland parties receiving overseas (and anonymous) donations don't apply in Northern Ireland (or perhaps in the Irish Republic since Sinn Fein does operate north and south, if less successfully south) then now is the time for the cash-strapped parties registered in England Scotland and Wales to open branches in Ireland. Or might it be that fundraising abroad by SF (if any) is done illegally.
A revolutionary political party, whose sense of self-righteousness has oblivious to truth and constantly striving to obliterate all alternatives to its version of reality, raising funds illegally? That could never happen.
"NEW Government guidelines will bar Sinn Fein from fundraising abroad."
I can't understand why fund-raising abroad would be an issue for Sinn Fein. I thought they'd have brought in more money from their business wing - the IRA - through drug dealing / smuggling, gun running, protection racketeering, fuel and tobacco smuggling, fraud, bank robberies, etc.
Perhaps highly organised and ruthless crimes don't bring in the kind of bucks that they used to, or perhaps Sinn Fein are just getting greedy.
"The irony now is that Sinn Fein is allowed to raise money abroad, while the Conservative Party isn't"
But isn't the truth that, these days, the former poses no serious threat to the peace, harmony and economy of our nation, while with Cameron the jury is still out?
Machiavelli's Understudy - You are very naive if you think Americans know anything about Britain, except the ones who are obsessed with their lineage and have traced it. Ask yourself: why would they be intersted in a tiny foreign country 2,500 miles away from the East Coast and 5,000 miles away from California? We are not fascinating to them and I really don't know that they've "made several films about it". Name one.
Other than places like NY, Philadelphia and Boston,where they have mythologised Ireland for generations, the average American knows zero, zap, zilch about Ireland. "Whether or not they mythologise the whole Irish freedom fighter bollocks is completely irrelevent,"you say but other than in the places I mentioned, they don't. They spend 24 hours a day not thinking about Britain or Ireland and they certainly do not know any history or any politics.
Many of them can name Tony Blair as prime minister - maybe around 40% of adults,but only because he has pushed himself forward so relentlessly. They could never have named John Major.
The average response to learning one is British is, "Oh, I'm one-quarter English on my mother's side. My mother's grandfather was English. On my father's side I'm French and Italian." They know as much about British politics as you know about New Zealand politics and they think about Britain as often as you think about New Zealand.
You are very naive if you think they are interested in us. In DC, yes, because inside the Beltway, they live and breathe politics. Otherwise, no.
And yes, Madasafish, our relationship with them is not "special". Every country pursues its own national interests.
America is a nation of immigrants and they are intensely loyal to the United States. People with German, French, Swedish, Italian, Mexican, Chinese, African-American, Japanese, and so on, heritage have no special interest in Britain. It is amazing how many of you are deluded. They are not hostile to us. They just don't care.
Once again, you completely overshoot the point, Verity.
Name one film? Here are four:
- Patriot Games
- The Devil's Own
- The Boxer
- Michael Collins
In fact, if you would like to see an entire list of films about the IRA and Northern Ireland, have a gander at http://www.irishfilm.net/IRA-y.html
I don't care for what they know about Britain and British politics. That wasn't part of my point, nor was it ever mentioned. How you arrived at that juncture I do not know.
I've heard of Patriot Games,but not the others. Were they all made in the US? I'll bet they went over like a lead balloon.
Your point was that Americans are familiar with the Irish grudge against Britain. I told you yes, in Boston, NY and Philadelphia. No in the South. No in the Midwest. No in the Southwest. No in the Western states. No on the West Coast. They've got their own political issues to think about.
They have elections for governor and state senators. They have elections for their local mayor. They have elections for the police chief. Elections for the sheriff. Elections for the fire chief. Elections for their local school board. They don't give a stuff what's going on elsewhere because it doesn't affect them.
I would say that considerably more Americans could name the president of Mexico than the prime minister of Britain.
Apart from a cadre of fanatics in the NE,no one gives a stuff.
Let me correct the usual Jewish NYC myth: "The New York metropolitan area is home to the largest Jewish population in the world outside Israel. New York's Jewish population in 2001 was approximately 1.97 million, 1.4 million more than in Jerusalem but 600,000 less than in Tel Aviv." That's Wikipedia, which states it pretty succinctly, but you can go to their sources: http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/world-jewish-population.htm#_Toc26172080 and http://gis.nyc.gov/dcp/pa/address.jsp. To sum up, there are a lot of Jews in NYC, but more in Israel.
These Sinn Fein loons show up every St. Pat's day. If they are a legitimate party now, why ARE they fundraising here? Surely, all that bankrobbing money should be enough. Yes, Americans do know about McGuineess. Last year, Bush snubbed Adams and invited the McCarthy sisters.
After reading ALL the comments, to be fair, Verity is correct in that Americans do not follow British politics (or Britain at all) the way the British follow America. Americans are too busy living their own lives to follow everything going on in Europe (and who really cares, anyway?), or any other place. Most Americans I know are reading books about the middle east, Islam or China.
I hate the term 'special relationship' because it means something different to each person. I think most Americans, even those not of British heritage, are collectively partial to Britain over any other place because of the historical connections. It doesn't mean if you snap, we jump, but I think we listen more. In the end, everything comes down to national interest (as it should be).
anonimo 3:29 - Agreed. Americans do what is best for America and Tony Blair doing David Niven is a sideshow that most of them wouldn't understand anyway. There is little sense of connection with Britain in the US except, as I have said, "Oh, my mother was half British and her great-grandfather was from Sweden."
I think a lot of Americans are partial, in a very distant way, to Britain only because we all speak English. I think Americans are also semi-partial to Oz for the same reason.
Scenario - and I admit it's my own personal scenario and I just thought of it - if there were conflicts in Britain and - seperately - in Oz, the Americans would instinctively deploy their resources to helping Oz. Not least because Britain isn't seen as a country any more. It's part of something they understand - although they most assuredly don't understand the history - a United States of Europe.
Australia is a real country with real,independent policies. I think the US would go to the aid of Oz before they would go to a state of the EUSSR.
It would be a wrench to choose between Oz and the UK. (Of course, if all the anti-American tripe keeps up, it'll become easier). Choosing between the EU and OZ would be easy. I am pretty much at wit's end with lazy, free-riding Europeans.
I love the Australians and especially John Howard. They still have 'frontier spirit', (which is basically cutting through the pc bs and forging ahead in the face of reality). Maybe they just have what Mark Steyn would term civilizational will.
You might be right about the English language being the great connector. My youth was spent with kings, queens & knights, Camelot, Beowulf, Chaucer, Shakespeare, Romantic Poets, etc. In school, American pre-history is basically British history. (Just a brief mention of other countries' histories).
I worry for Britain. It is like I am watching it consciously dismantle: surrendering sovereignty to Europe, the Anglo-Scottish union in jeopardy, overwhelmed by multicultural equivalancy, scrapping the Lords (and other traditions) and now, with this kooky green agenda, I expect them to give up cars and planes in favor of horses again.
A shame. One-thousand years of history circling the toilet. They should be much prouder of their heritage, but no one can force them. It will be hard to have a Anglophone world without them.
How strange, I always thought veterans from opposing sides of past wars were supposed to share a drink and happily recount the times they almost shot/maimed/disembowelled each other.
Then again, maybe they were both too aware of tradecraft. I understand the Provos still aren't so kind to touts after all.
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