Sunday, November 12, 2006

LibDem MEP Compares Israelis to Nazis

Chris Davies, Liberal Democrat MEP for the North West, is well known for his anti Israeli stance, but now he really seems to have lost his marbles. He has just sent out an astonishing email to his local party mailing list about his recent visit to the Palestinian Territories.

He compares Israel to Nazi Germany: “The Israeli army has no more right under international law to be in Gaza than the German army had to be in Paris, Oslo or Warsaw during the 1940s.”

This has become the subject of a full out debate on the Liberal Democrat Youth & Students Forum, with Jonny Wright leading the charge against Davies. He writes...

[This is] ignoring the fact that Israel withdrew unilaterally from Gaza under Sharon, clearly anyone with half a brain can see that comparing Israel with Nazi invasions is utterly wrong and completely counter-productive. I can’t think of a worse way of setting the context for a constructive debate on the future of the Middle East. And it gets better: “ … the minority in Gaza who, out of despair, have taken up arms against an occupying army cannot be dismissed as ‘terrorists’. In the face of overwhelming and hopeless odds should their sacrifice not be saluted and awarded the same respect as that given to resistance movements of the Second World War?” Again the comparison with Nazis, but here he’s going one better: he’s praising the sort of terrorists who indiscriminately kill innocent Israelis, and fire rockets into schools and houses. This comment is on exactly the same level as Jenny Tonge. The upsetting thing is that this sort of stuff gets used by Hamas, PFLP et al, when they’re recruiting. Young, disaffected Palestinian men, living in the most unbelievably awful circumstances, are told that it’s OK to use deadly violence for political aims, because a British MEP (amongst others) said so. You can’t break a horrific cycle of violence by using more violence, and you can’t justify or praise the deliberate targeting of civilians, whatever your view of the wider Middle East situation. This sort of statement is really very worrying, and I suspect he may even be considered to be ‘glorifying terrorism’ here.

Glorifying terrorism? Isn't there some kind of law against that? Perhaps my friends at the Conservative Friends of Israel might like to consult m'learned Friend.

45 comments:

Anonymous said...

I did work expeerience in his office! I realise this isn't very relevant.

Cranmer said...

This buffoon is ignorant of history, politics anmd theology - the precise prerequisite for being an MEP.

He is an intellectual moron, an historical ignoramus, a political pygmy. It is all too easy to pontificate about sitiations in which one does not have to live, and Mr Davies neither lived in Nazi Germany nor does he live in Israel. His views are offensive to adherents of liberty and democracy.

Anonymous said...

Look, if you are going to give someone a kicking just because they have the audacity to point out what a bunch of warmongers the Israelis are, go and post on CiF.

Don't waste our time on it here, we really aren't interested in propping up the Israeli propoganda machine - they have far too much help with that already.

Croydonian said...

Hitler admirer Vladimir Zhirinovsky leads the Liberal Democrats in Russia.....

A better parallel for our knowledge challenged LD 'friend' in Wales would be the presence of Allied troops in Germany post '45, as Gaza was only occupied in '67 by the IDF after Egypt started a war with Israel.

(Note for anyone arguing that Israel started the Six Day War by attacking Egypt etc - no, it did not start the war. The blocking of the Straits of Tiran by Egypt created a casus belli under international law.)

Voyager said...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4974808.stm

Is this the man ?

I think we should be sympathetic and await the full psychiatric report. This seems to be a pattern of behaviour which might suggest he has foundlucrative opportunities with recycled petrodollars, or simply that he has an undiscovered tumour or other form of mental impairment.

verity said...

Well said, Your Grace!

Anonymous said...

Poor chap. He could do by learning some more history before spouting off. Thoughts like this are best kept in private and not to be emailed out. By all means attack the Israeli bullies, but avoid cheap comparisons and polemics, they help no one.

Anonymous said...

This MEP is just having his 15 minutes... I don't think that anyone with a brain could seriously compare the Israelis to the Nazis.

Having said that, let's not get all precious about the Israeli government and the IDF... pumping shells into civilian housing is inexcusable, and just because Hamas/Hezbollah don't care about human life and kill with no regard doesn't mean that an elected government should chuck decency out of the window too, whatever the provocation.

I think that instead of enthusing us all to support the Palestinians, this LD oaf should have called for increased pressure on both sides. As history shows us in Northern Ireland, this is the only way to get anything done.

Anonymous said...

*** (Note for anyone arguing that Israel started the Six Day War by attacking Egypt etc - no, it did not start the war. The blocking of the Straits of Tiran by Egypt created a "/* under international law.)

Of course it's good international etiquette to go around responding to blockades by immediately overrunning two countries.
I think not somehow.

The blockade was stupid posturing by Nasser, especially as a third of the Egyptian army was off in the Yemen up to no good.

A better analogy would be the German action in initiating WW1. They took advantage of circumstances to put into action well laid plans for conquest.

Anonymous said...

You weren't quite as vocal when the Arabist scum in your party said much the same Iain. Andrew Turner is just as low as Davies.

Anonymous said...

Israel is a 50 year old country. It has nuclear weapons capability, an unlimited tab for armed forces hardware with the U.S, 3 Billion US Dollars a year in declared aid from the U.S, considerable financial wealth both internally and externally and unparalled media influence around the world in the shape of news corporations and artistic sympathy from Hollywood.

One has to wonder why the Palestinians and the Lebanese are to suffer for the German Holocaust? It's a perfectly decent question to ask have the Israelis become Nazis-in-sentiment with their neighbours when there is so little proper condemnation of their actions. Put simply there is no 'Conservative Friends of Palestine' group because there's no money in it.

Mr. Davies has shown an ineptitude for politics by articulating what every thinking person in politics knows.

jafo said...

Israel is the only democratic country in the Middle East.

I notice this person (of whom I had previously never heard, and don't feel that to be a misfortune) didn't mention that.

His remarks sound very much like glorifying terrorism don't they - is that Liberal or Democratic?

Anonymous said...

Israel is the only democratic country in the Middle East.


There is a reason why it's the only democracy in the middle East...pffft as if democracy in the middle East (or indeed the far) hadn't been completely undermined as a the starting point for civil relations.

Anonymous said...

I hope you report him to the police Iain. If they receive a formal complaint they have to investigate.

Anonymous said...

What a donkey. But then what do you expect from the Lib Dims?

No right to be there? Err neither did Egypt and Jordan from 1950 to 1967 when they got their bums whipped by the IDF. Of course had the Egyptians and Jordanians in the spirit of Pan Arab cooperation helped the Palestinians to set up a state then things might have turned out differently. But no those two countries thought "oh some more land, thank you very much."

As for glorifying terrorism. The offence is so vague and sweeping it catches all sorts of stuff from this rubbish to wall murals in Belfast. Its classic comfort legislation. Makes you feel good, but is very little use.

Instead why not send Dim Donkey Davis back to school?

Indigo said...

jafo Israel is the only democratic country in the Middle East

So what? Contemplate this ratio: what's democratic about Israel killing 26 Palestinians - including tiny children in a "technical error" (and complacently anticipating more "technical errors") - for EACH Israeli killed?

Anonymous said...

And there you have it. Arabist scum. Perfectly fine (twist of emon with the Bloody Mary sir?)... but can one say theoretical 'filth' here?.... I doubt it.

Mark Williams said...

Jafo
"Israel is the only democratic country in the Middle East."

Various points:
1. Well, no it isn't. Look a little harder. Most Middle Eastern states rentier states and are hampered by what is othen known as the "resource curse". The rest have some form of democracy. The recent trouble between Israel and Lebanon arose because of who the Lebanese wvoted for.

2. Israel may claim to be a democracy, but it has 450,000 voters living outside its borders and another 3.5m Palestinians living inside its borders without a vote. Not Nazi Germany by any means, but similarities with South Africa under aprthaid.

3. Most of the enlightened thought in the modern world seems to come from democracies. It does not follow that all democracies are necessarily superior. Is the UAE full of warmongering despots? I think not.

wonkotsane said...

Erm, he wasn't actually comparing Israel to the Nazi's was he? He merely stated the fact - correctly, I might add - that the Israeli's have no more right to be in Gaza than the Germans did in any country they invaded. He's absolutely correct. It might be on a smaller scale but I doubt there's many international laws that the nazi's broke that the Israeli's aren't also guilty of. The genocide ones are debatable, depends on who you ask - the Palestinians say they are, the Americans say they aren't. They've certianly ignored or broken many more UN resolutions than the Iraqi's did and Iraq was invaded on the pretext of ignoring UN resolutions. In fact, unless I'm mistaken, Israel holds the record for the highest number of UN resolutions against them and that's with roughly 2/3rds being vetoed by the Americans.

Croydonian said...

(sigh)

A pretty odd genocide that sees the Arab population increasing quite so quickly.

To re-iterate / clarify, Gaza had been absorbed by Egypt after the '49 armistice and was not part of a sovereign Palestinian state. Egypt started a war which it lost, and the occupation of Gaza by the IDF is no different to that of the British in Germany post '45, or Okinawa by the Americans etc etc.

Also, you would do well to draw a distinction between advisory and mandatatory UN resolutions.

ian said...

"Israel is the only democratic country in the Middle East"

Didn't the Palestinians have an election recently? Oh, but they can't be democratic because they chose the wrong leaders.

Oh, and I forgot. They're not a country, thanks to Israel.

Perhaps a better description of Israel would be "Israel is the only country in the middle east known to have a viable nuclear weapon". I wonder why they're allowed a WMD?

Anonymous said...

We shouldn't be surprised by his comments. He resigned as leader of the Lib Dem MEPs earlier this year after telling a supporter of Israel to 'wallow in her own filth'. The fact that he wasn't sacked tells us everything we need to know about the Lib Dems.

Chris Davies Resignation Statement

Croydonian said...

The Palestinians had ample opportunity to accept the UN partition and have a state in 1947. They did not take that opportunity. They did not create a Palestinian state between 1947 and 1967 either. They were offered extraordinarily generous under the Oslo deal, which they turned down.

As to Israeli nuclear weapons, they have had a capacity of sorts since the very early 70s, and despite the Yom Kippur war, the Gulf War scuds etc have not used them. Could anyone imagine any other state in the Middle East showing that level of restraint when faced with a war of prospective annihilation?

towcestarian said...

Iain, you have broken the new Rule 1 of political blogging - don't mention the Middle East. Now look what's happened.

A bunch of Liberal-Left anonymongs have pitched up, foaming at their anti-semitic mouths, sppouting historical innacuracies and generally behaving in a most undesirable way. Why is there never an IDF tank with a faulty gun-sight on hand when you need one to clear out unwelcome visitors?

Shotgun said...

He's right.

So what if the Isrealis withdrew from Gaza..and how can they do it anything but unilaterally, unless of course the Pals had invaded and occupied Israel and not yet left? So what if they did withdraw when the Pals have little way to defend themselves from tanks and planes parked on the border and only fifteen minutes from anywhere in Gaza...that is a vaccuous argument.

The Israelis would have the worlds support, including mine, if they wothdrew to their own borders and built their wall around their on borders...but until then they are no better than the SS in Germany in WW2 where the jackboot was kept on the neck of those who disagreed with their policy.

A very good freind is jewish and went to visit on the West Bank, but was disgusted by what she found; things like water rations for the Pals while illegal settlers watered gardens.

The Israelis have an agenda for keeping the Pals in a constant state of war...let's not forget that Arafat called a ceasefire, and they won a Nobel peace prize as a result...now remind of why that ceasefire was broken? A fucking Israeli murderer broke it, and then the Israelis decided to start assassinating Hamas leaders...and before you whine...Hamas at that time had adhered to the ceasefire for a number of years. Israel NEEDS the conflict to allow it a reason to stay in the West Bank, which is the prize they crave.

Let's not forget too that these fuckers are nothing but terrorist scum themselves who murdered British soldeirs in droves to get their own way.

ian said...

Ah, the classic line: Anyone who dares criticise Israel is an anti-semite. Well done.

Greg L-W. said...

Hi,

your comment:

>"Young, disaffected Palestinian men, living in the most unbelievably awful circumstances, are told that it’s OK to use deadly violence for political aims,"<

Surely the same could be said of IDF.

Well not really they are not forced to grow up in a Nazi style ghetto so redollent of Warsaw, surrounded by an obscene wall and persecuted by the second or third largest airforce in the world funded by America - silly me I fogot, nothing like those revolting Palestinians who should be gratefull for being treated like dirt and fired on by helicopter gun ships that OFFICIALLY massacre women, children and civilians, in their own Country.

The horrid Palestinians should be gratefull that they can all be herded together and not have to worry about the land stolen from them ever again!

Get real - The State of Israel is an obscenity and to besmirch the name of Judaism by linking it with such evil is in itself a racist evil.

They do say child abusers are frequently the result of abuse as a child!

Regards,
Greg L-W.

dynamite said...

What a donkey. But then what do you expect from the Lib Dims?

Erm, the extremely articulate response from the young Liberal Democrats who were objecting to Davies?

Anonymous said...

The libdems are twats.

Sod the Arabs. When they stop trying to murder any and all Jews and stop calling some Arabs 'Palestinians' (no such people) and deliberately keeping them in poverty as a permanent source of murderers, then I'll worry about them. Until then the more of them that die the better: serves them right.

wonkotsane said...

So Israel is at liberty to ignore UN resolutions but the Palestinians had it coming because they didn't accept the resolution partitioning their country?

Joe Taylor said...

Er - hasn't Chris Davies heard of the first corollary to Godwin's Law?

Now I'm no fan of what Israel is doing to the Middle East at the moment, but I really do despair when either Davies or Tonge open their mouths. The situation in the region is complex and subtle and painting comedy horns on any of the participants is not going to help.

Rest assured that they do not represent the Lib Dem mainstream!

Anonymous said...

I am surprise since my family and I were terrorised at university by a Jew-hating Liberal Democrat.

Neil Craig said...

I hope the Tory Friends of Israel don't take such legal actions Iain - there has been to much of that lately.

The legal & actual difference between the Israeli & Nazi examples is the Nazis were engaged in a purely agressive & hence illegal war whereas all Israel's wars have been at least arguably defencive indeed they left Gaza & only make temporary returns to it in response to futile Hamas attacks across the border & kidnapping of soldiers. Hamas, despite their tiny military capability are the agressors & the moral position would not be changed if they had tanks.

When the Lib Dems denounce the Croatian Nazi occupation of Knin & Nato's of Pristina as being the result of pure agression (for the purpose of genocide) & hence illegal they will be on strong ground but, obviously, it is only Jews they oppose, they support these Nazis.

Anonymous said...

Obviously nobody remembers the pact made with the Nazis by the Zionist terrorist organisation known as the Stern Gang.

Don't forget your history, kids, there's lessons to be learnt from all of it.

Anonymous said...

Mark Williams said...
Jafo
"Israel is the only democratic country in the Middle East."

Various points:
1. Well, no it isn't. Look a little harder. Most Middle Eastern states rentier states and are hampered by what is othen known as the "resource curse". The rest have some form of democracy. The recent trouble between Israel and Lebanon arose because of who the Lebanese wvoted for.

2. Israel may claim to be a democracy, but it has 450,000 voters living outside its borders and another 3.5m Palestinians living inside its borders without a vote. Not Nazi Germany by any means, but similarities with South Africa under aprthaid.

3. Most of the enlightened thought in the modern world seems to come from democracies. It does not follow that all democracies are necessarily superior. Is the UAE full of warmongering despots? I think not.


Are you the same Mark Williams that is MP for Lampeter?

Anonymous said...

'Glorifying terrorism'? Spot on Iain, that is exactly what some of the Conservative Friends of Israel do week-in, week-out.

The analogy of the Israeli Occupiers with the nazis is not a new one to Davies. And what's the beef with it? It is pretty common knowledge that some (but not all) of the victims of abuse become abusers. Not too much psychobabble, I hope.

Anonymous said...

Neil Craig is off his trolly. The first war which set up the aggressive state of Israel (and killed a lot of British Squaddies on the way) was an aggressive war, confiscating property of thousands of innocents. The rest essentially follow on from that.

Westmorland Activist said...

I really can't believe that you have never heard of the excellent Chris Davies MEP before ! He is just the kind of person we need in Europe, just like we need his close friend Tim Farron in Westminster.

He did something with illegal drugs, can't quite remember what, supposedly to raise awareness. I remember a policeman threatening him with wasting police time.

Neither Isreal nor Chris Davies are the greatest exemplars of the benefits of democracy.

kulibar tree said...

i think all the negative commenters here are quite wrong. this is an outstandingly original concept by Chris Davies, who deserves to complimented on the clarity of his ideas. i don't think i've ever come across the israeli / nazi comparison before, but now that davies has made it, i wonder that we could have all missed it for so long.

keep up the good work, chris, and you and the rest of the lib-dems will be in downing street before you know it. you, in particular, have a great future in the field of foreign relations.

ps - apologies for the lower case writing, but my keyboard appears to be faulty.

Umbongo said...

Critising Israel does not make you an anti-semite: true. But it's so much easier to be anti-Israeli if you don't like Jews.

Cinnamon said...

What some of you have spouted here about Nazis and Israel is seriously demented and very offensive to those in the known, and I advise you to not say this in Germany anywhere, because you'll find that the only people who would be in agreement with you are the NPD, and you yourself will get immediatly treated like an NPD supporter (aka Neonazi), which is a very special social pariah state in most polite company, ranging from the gentle Greens to the rugged Bavarian conservative farmers. It is probably one of he few things that all of Germany agrees on, no matter which political party they are in, the NPD are deeply unpopular with everyone.

Since Davies is an MEP, well, it could have repercussions for him, Berlusconi got a nasty grilling by a German MEP for a lesser gaffe.

jamesofengland said...

wonkotsane is completely right. If you measure morality as a lack of censure from the UN, the Israelis are much worse than Hitler. In fact, I don't believe that Hitler was ever found to have violated a single UN resolution against him, although some UN members have used strong language to criticise him and his regime.

Anonymous said...

There was no UN in Hitler's day and the League of Nations was a joke.

Dangerouslysubversivedad said...

Sad to say much as I would like to say that it is only the anti-Semitic Left infesting this thread, there are a lot of people on here who doubtless describe themselves as rightwingers including old Wonko, who really ought to see the utter hypocrisy of using resolutions by the unelected, undemocratic, corrupt, totally illegitimate United Nations to condemn Israel - whilst also railing at the evils of the unelected, undemocratic, corrupt, totally illegitimate EU. Its all right for some NGO taking on the authority to to kick the Jews, but not for one to kick the English, right Wonko? Either you accept the authority of supranational bodies or you dont - how come its only us who should have the right to run our own country without interference?

I hope all the pillocks wittering on about Israeli bullying, disproportionate response, 'targeting of civilians' and all the other crap get the neighbours from HELL move in next door this week. Let's see how you react if your neighbour starts chucking live fireworks at your kids, say, or maybe even keeps digging tunnels under your fence so his dog can get in and eat them instead. You could tell us all about it, then we could tell you that historically your back garden belongs to the neighbours anyway, and if you take any action to protect yourself its really unfair because you might hit the neighbours innocent kids after all. So you should just take it and like it whether you have to live in fear for the rest of your days or not, you bullies!

What a bunch of wankers. You ought to be kidnapped and then made to live in Sderot for a while so you can enjoy all those fun Qassam rockets landing on you on a daily basis from Gaza where, you know, the IDF has not right to be.

Anonymous said...

So what do people think about Davies standing again for the LibDem Euro-Leadership less than a year after he was ordered to step down by Campbell?! It's a bit rich - especially coming in the same week that a far-right party has formed in the Parliament. Interesting that Davies is quoted in the press as welcoming the creation of a group which includes in their number a man who opposes the "jewish establishment" - something Davies has said over and over ahain - perhaps he should go for the leadership of that group instead!