Every now and then, I appear on a BBC World Service programme called WORLD HAVE YOUR SAY. It's an hour long phone in, with people calling in from all around the world. It has a massive audience. Today they were discussing whether, considering the expenses scandal, Britain is still seen as a beacon of parliamentary democracy. I was on with a Nigerian journalist and a senator from the same country.
I quizzed her about what she, as a Nigerian politician, could claim for. Rent, she said. So far so good. Then she said: "A security guard and a chef." I felt like saying: "Your name isn't Barbara Follett by any chance, is it?"
Caller after caller reckoned our expenses scandal is a storm in a teacup and that no one would blink an eye in Trinidad, Malaysia or Nigeria. This really made me think. Perhaps the fact that we get exorcised about this demonstrates that our democracy is actually in very rude health. If we just accepted it as a fact of life, what would that say?
51 comments:
It doesn't matter whether our's are marginally less awful, we are meant to be the last word in clean, measured and fair democracy.
I don't give a f*ck if we are less corrupt than XXX state, that is not the point.
*spot the zero sleaze tolerance poster*
'If we just accepted it as a fact of life, what would that say?'
that we were damn fools
Trinidad Nigeria and Malaysia?
You do realise that these are the 3 most corrupt countries on the plane? Of course they wouldn't blink a bleeding eye.
Wish we could be 'exorcised' to remove all our bloodsucking devils.
I'd say that things are different in Africa, where anyone even modestly prosperous has a cook, and doesn't pay them much. In such a society, to employ servants is almost a duty.
As for our democracy being 'in rude health', words fail me.
Iain,
You're absolutely right, after Stephen Crabb's question last week the World has suddenly woken up to what is happening in the 'Mother of Parliaments'.
It's been an interesting day, watching Harman and then Cameron's response was lesson in politics, how can a party in Govt so long get it so wrong.
Sod 'em.
The Daily Politics has a new post from a resident author on Mr Tim Montgomery, it's satire and not to be taken seriously, Especially the quip about seventeen readers which really hurts, me. BRINGING IT ALL BACK HOME
I think our outrage is as it should be. We are not the rest of the world, although Brown is an admirer. Cameron's deeds today are excellent and I hope he reaches a good audience.
You can't really compare us to third world countries. As Plato said, it's also irrelevant what other countries are doing, we have our own ideas on how politicians should behave and have a tradition of "honour" that they are supposed to operate under.
Nigerian President Abacha channelled a total of 14 billion dollars out of Nigeria, mostly into Swiss bank accounts - Gordon Brown claimed £7,000 for half a cleaner. You grossly understate the difference Iain, though I do agree with the sentiments of Plato above.
Have you heard Gordon's latest?
Every person in England and Wales can phone up for a Policeman to walk the last mile home with them.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8046274.stm
Iain, I agree with the other comments so far. If the best we can say about our system is that it is less corrupt than Nigeria's, then we have lost. The woman from Nigeria *needs* a security guard. Out there, they kill politicians they don't like. Barbara Follett's fears for her safety in Soho don't come close.
This is the first time I've heard any suggestions of the need for exorcism in this context.
Have you found any actual evidence of demonic possession?
Are we to set standards - or to follow them? Do we now rate as a Third World 'Democracy'? Just what is this country - some sort of banana republic? I think it probably is. I really don't care what the corrupt Nigerian or Trinidadian guys may or may not do. These people are our elected representatives, the should know - and be - a hell of a lot better.
Our democracy is only just in rude health. The attempts by New Labour to shut it down over the last 12 to 13 years have only really been thwarted by the march of technology and the blogs. Without the likes of you and Guido and many many others would the complicit MSM have had the guts to do all these revelations? I doubt it. They would have been bought off with our money.
Of course this is classic leftyism. The politics of shady deals. The smoke filled rooms. The quiet arrangement to share our power and advantage. The bruvvers keeping it in the clan.
Thank God for the invention of the interweb.
wv: reophuk!
I concur, Iain, in the sense that it is a very good sign for this country that we are outraged about this.
I think David Cameron is doing a patch job of publicity in the past tense, but if the future restrictions he mooted come into place within the Tories then I will be glad. Despite the disappointment that this was necessary in the first place.
Accusing you of a You Turn regarding the link between expenses and recession was lamentable (Hazel)> You were thinking aloud :)
93,000 extra readers whom Speaker Martin said should have waited for the cover-up (literally) in July.
A more interesting stat will be the ext5ra hits on the website at about 9.30pm every evening :)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/may/12/daily-telegraph-mps-expenses-circulation
incredible, you are just realising how corrupt the british system is?
People know about corruption in nigeria because when it happens nigerians speak out and shout while in the Uk when it happens you push it under the table and maintain "holier than thou atitude"
Which brings us to the matter of postal voting. If as rumoured Glenrothes was fixed how about a whole country. Or the towns full of third world immigrants whose prctices are mentioned here?
Brilliant Iain
You've just compared the UK to Nigeria
I have to agree 100%.
Our parliament is rotten
(your timing is perfect, considering the Tory sleaze today)
What would it say? That the Blair-Brown mission to turn us into a banana republic was complete.
This isn't a particularly new claim: it's always been said that British politics is remarkably uncorrupt by international standards. Compare with France during the Mitterand years:
- the Elf scandal
- Mitterand putting his mistress and illegitimate children up in style at the taxpayers expense
- the Finance Minister who didn't pay any tax during his entire life
- the Defence Minister who gave an arms contract to his girlfriend at the time
- the Prime Minister who gave her dentist a health contract
The Americans have also had their fair share of corruption scandal:
- Randy Cunningham
- Ted Stevens
- Rod Blagojevich
Our democracy is not in very rude health! This scandal became public despite the best endeavours of politicians to prevent it. Iain, you are too close to your Westninster pals. You will be telling us next that they all acted within the rules.
Sorry Iain. But to judge our politicians by the standards of third world Banana republics is a joke.
In many of these Contries they string their leaders up. Perhaps that's an idea we should adopt as well?
Blears trying to dig herself out of a hole on Sky News. Holding up a cheque to Jon Craig on the TV.
Cameron has really caught Liebour out today. Brown really is a hopeless tool.
The BBC must be gutted.
BBC News Breaking News...
Chipmunk to pay £13,332 tax she evaded to HMRC despite denying that she said that she have avoided it in the first place.
She'll definitely have to go now.
Good Riddance to Bad Rubbish.
"...no one would blink an eye in Trinidad, Malaysia or Nigeria."That is why these places are collectively referred to as the "third world".
O/T but..
Blears to ‘pay back’ the CGT she should have paid on the sale of the flipping flat. I have a feeling that HM C&R might just want to point out there’s interest to pay on that, love..
If we don't seek to improve, things always get worse. Whether our system is the least corrupt in the world or just less than ideal, it will get worse unless we try to improve it- so of course we should be making a fuss and giving politicians an incentive to improve- constantly. Eventually things will be as good as we can make them- but it will require continued effort to keep them there.
I don't give a big rat's arse what other countries do. This country should stand out as an exemplar of how things are done. We used to. Why aren't we now?
Invalid comparison Iain.
In third world countries they have little or no state provision, so it is common to employ domestic helpers, drivers, nannies etc. etc. There is no minimum wage, just a market rate.
It the UK, the money is taken from us by the state and given directly to the would be drivers, nannies, cleaners etc. without them having to lift a finger. And we clean our own house and car, mow our own lawn, take our own kids to school and cook our own meals. This is the socialist system.
As Michael Caine put it "We've got three and a half million layabouts laying about on benefits and I'm 76 getting up at six o'clock in the morning to go to work to keep them."
O/T cont..
Actually, someone on Sky has just made an interesting point: “If it wasn’t a CGT liability, what will HM R&C do with the cheque?” They can’t cash it if it’s not due. If it is, then yep, interest/late payment charges. But then that’s an admission of tax avoidance. Oh what a tangled web..
Iain
I have not visited Trinidad but I have been to Nigeria on several occasions since 1958. I was always made aware that nothing was obtained without dash even a registered letter sent to me at a post office counter.
I have spent a total of 18 months in Malaysia. For you to claim that our democracy is in rude health, because we are better than those countries, is ridiculous.
In 1958 when I first visited Nigeria it was a shock - I had come from a country where financial probity was the norm. Today you are able to accept any degree of political venality and corruption as more or less OK. We know that you are a frustrated parliamentary candidate Iain - how would you have conducted your claims if you had succeeded?
Are you so much a part of the political class that you are insensitive to the norms of civilised society?
Just seen the chipmunk on BBC news being interviewed by Sky's Jon Craig!?
Not that I support her in any way but she gave a pretty robust performance.
Apparently when you become a Minister the Fees Office insist your constituency home is your second home....hence the "flipping". Is this true?
The BNP is starting to look good.
she, as a Nigerian politician, could claim for. Rent, she said. So far so good. Then she said: "A security guard and a chef."I was born and brought up in tropical Africa. If you'd enquired further, you would probably have learned that the cook lived in a hut at the end of her garden and had his meals while on duty. So that's one Third World family - the cook's whole family - taken care of.
As for the security guard - do you know how unsafe Nigeria is? It is a transit point for heroin and cocaine intended for the European, East Asian and North American markets. Armed robberies are an ever-present threat: in people's homes, car-jacking on the roads, people shot dead in restaurants. Most private and public buildings have security personnel.
Hello Mr Dale,
My name is Mr.Moses Odohua.I work in the credit and accounts department of
Union Bank of Nigeria Plc,Lagos, Nigeria. I write you in respect of a foreign customer with a Domicilliary account. His name is Engineer Manfred
Becker. He was among those who died in a plane crash here in Nigeria during the reign of late General Sani Abacha.
Since the demise of this our customer, Engineer Manfred Becker, who was an oil Merchant/contractor, I have kept a close watch of the deposit records
and accounts and since then nobody has come to claim the money in this a/c as next of kin to the late Engineer. He had only $18.5 million in his a/c and the a/c is coded. It is only an insider that could produce the code or password of the deposit particulars. As it stands now,there is nobody in
that position to produce the needed information other than my very self considering my position in the bank.
Based on the reason that nobody has come forward to claim the deposit as next of kin, I hereby ask for your co operation in using your name as the next of kin to the deceased to send these funds out to a foreign offshore bank a/c for mutual sharing between myself and you. At this point I am the
only one with the information because I have removed the deposit file from the safe.By so doing, what is required is to send an aplication laying claims of the deposit on your name as next of kin to the late Engineer. I
will need your full name and address telephone/fax number,company or
residential, also your bank name and account,where the money will be transfer into.
Finally i want you to understand that the request for a foreigner as the next of kin is occassioned by the fact that the customer was a foreigner and for that reason alone a local cannot represent as next of kin. When you contact me, then we shall discuss on how the money will be split between us and others we shall also speak in details.I am currently in europe for a six months course,you can reach me on this number for further discussion 0031 623 866 711.
Kindly send your reply to my private email
address stated below moses1@zwallet.com or moses1@yahoo.com
Trusting to hear from you,
I remain Respectfully yours,
Mr Moses Odouahu.
What is democracy? We seem to have so much of what the political class would call democracy. Votes coming out of our ears. 'Representation' at 6 or 7 different levels of elected Government. Yet the will of the people is routinely ignored. How can this possibly be? We have never had so much democracy! There is little genuine choice when the best you can hope for is choosing between 3 statist parties. They know it. You know it. We know it.
Democracy is dying on it's arse here. Democracy is not just voting once in a while, it is people being involved in politics and Parliament doing the will of the people. Protecting us from the excesses of the State. We have not had that in a long time.
We have too many politicians who talk the talk and wave bits of paper at each other (though leave the Commons strewn with rubbish) but when serious concerns raise their head they are propping up a bar waiting to vote the way they have been told.
Each and every MP has a duty to Parliament, the nation and their constituents that surpasses any allegience to their party and any self serving nature. If they cannot and will not exercise the authority still vested in them despite their gross attempts to pass it to quangos and the EU, it says a hell of a lot about the standards of our politicians.
How many debates have been curtailed? Far, far too many.
How many MPs have spent their careers voting the way their party tells them? Far, far too many. This is not democracy it is a corporatist thugocracy. Too many MPs clearly do not care for the standing of the job they are there to do. Many of them would not be missed if the number of MPs and Lords were halved.
It is through the failings of Parliament, particularly in it's role of holding the Government to account, that so much has crumbled under Labour. The civil service has gone unchecked because the Government was too self-absorbed. The battle between Blair and Brown has been a massively costly one in terms of money waste, opportunities lost and crushing future taxpayers with a millstone of debt. The other 500-odd MPs who are not in Government could have done better to protect us and our way of life. They have largely been happy with the appearance of status quo.
A hell of a lot has been lost while politicians played with themselves. It will take a long time to regain what we have lost. Liberties, jobs, lives and reputations. Squandered, and for what? A few grubby pounds here, a few grubby pounds there, a jolly abroad now and then and free biscuits when you go to the BBC.
We will only have democracy when we can elect MPs who know what it is. This isn't it.
You're doing exactly what the Nu Labour drones said at the outset of these revelations.
'It's not a s bad as other countries, you know..bla, bla, bla...'
Frankly, I don't give a shit about other countries.
Oi!.
Anon May 12, 2009 8:03 PM.
I'll have you know that money arrived in Switzerland via London, which is why it was considered legit.
And sorry everyone, England does look like a third world country these days. Try living away for a few years then going back, it's only then you see the difference.
Nigeria!!!
Please that is not a credible comparison - Nigeria's political class is corrupt. They openly steal the cash and then oppress the people with it.
It is no way to measure the health of the UK's democracy. Did the Nigerian senator tell you that the last speaker had to be impeached because of some missing money - erm about 600,000,000 Naira (£24 million pounds!!)??
Hooray! Our government doesn't suck as much as the average third-world backwater crap-hole!
Of course we should be pleased that is worth our politicians' while to rip us off for the odd hundred pounds. In many countries they would not need to bother with such a tiny figure, as they were making off with fortunes.
But at the same time, if we don't stomp on corruption it will grow. So this shower need to be slapped down hard.
nothing in the french papers, they can't think it news?
Paying back is not enough. That is just an admission of guilt. These people should answer to a higher court but then we haven't got one any more have we?
The political class have ensured that they will remain above the law. For this country it is unbelievable but then it is par for the course. The whole system is corrupt just like the third world countries that we pour money into.
Only the BNP tell you the real truth but then who wants to hears it?
Of course foreign observers don't care a toss about our MPs expenses -they're not paying for it. But they can see that our much-vaunted democracy is a total sham. If I were an African commentator I might say that the UK is a tribal nation in which the minority tribe, the Celts, have hijacked political power from the majority English and set up their own local assemblies to look after Celtic interests using English money. Thanks to an unfair boundary system the Celt controlled central government was elected by only 22% of voters and in England alone more votes were cast for the opposition party but nevertheless, Celts got 55% of the seats. The English, historically one of the world's most dynamic tribes, creators of the industrial revolution and the world's most widespread language are being reduced systematically to a cowed, beaten peasantry by authoritarian left-wing Celtic control. Their economy has been ruined and to add insult to injury more than 70% of laws are now made by bureaucrats in the EU who were not elected, who won't listen to them, and whom they cannot get rid of.
Follett is Minister for Tourism and needs private security in London.
I have been warned !
TBF to the Nigerian MP, if I was an MP in Nigeria I'd want a security guard too. A bloody big one.
Malaysia? No. There is some corruption, but nothing on the scale of Britain and it's not institutionalised in Parliament the way it is in Britain. Anonymous 7:45m It's clear that you've never been to Malaysia, then.
Sue, if you think Malaysia is a Third World country, you don't get out much. Too bad London doesn't have a superb and spotless transport system like Kuala Lumpur.
Martin said: "In many of these Contries they string their leaders up." Oh, really? Name one.
Very interesting indeed. We get worked up about it because to many of us, giving our word and shaking on it still means something. It's to do with honouring an agreement. We simply abhor bribery and corruption. Eventually it caught up with policemen and politicians years ago and they went to jail. This expenses business simply outrages our sense of fair play. It's just that we expect MPs to do the right thing, even if their rules say they need not. Moral indignation? To some extent. But I agree with you. If this gets us angry and all het up then our democracy is fine. I think what also causes anger is them trying to hide it. Still trying to hide it via setting up a privatised outfit to handle pay and expenses in a bid to get round the FoI act is indefensible and an outrage. This approach smacks of arrogance and an utter disregard for the people and democracy.
Sorry, I come to this rather late, but I agree with what Verity said. Clearly, mention of Malaysia came from those who know nothing of the country or the region. There are several far more corrupt countries in Asia.
By and large Malaysia is Ok, and democracy seems to work. Last year the general election results gave a kick up the backside to the coalition, which has ruled since Independence some 50 years ago, when they unexpectedly lost several key states. There was no question of ballot rigging and the results were accepted by all concerned. The famous days of cronyism seem to have passed.
The state of Perak recently had elections too and the result was pretty much neck and neck, but the opposition had just enough to form the new state government. Again the result was accepted by all concerned and a new state government duly moved in to take control. However, shortly thereafter, three of their members decide they no longer wished to belong to the party under whose banner they had been elected and duly declared themselves as Independents, but now favouring the Barisan National which had been the previous government. This change gave the BN opposition a small working majority and so they duly declared themselves the government and appointed a new Speaker and a new Chief Minister. But having no clear mandate from the voters this has caused a bit of a rumpus with both sides claiming the positions. Both Speakers and CMs claim to be the legitimate incumbents and refuse to budge which makes for interesting pictures on the daily news bulletins. The Sultan of Perak has tried to mediate but has effecively been ignored by the politicians.
The matter is now going as quickly as possible through the courts and as is usual in these things each successive court hands own a ruling exactly the opposite of the former one which merely adds to the confusion and general jollity of life.
No one is sure how this will turn out, but similarly people are curious as to why when the opposition members changed their status the BN did not simply propose a motion of no confidence, which they would probably have won. This would then have enabled the Sultan of Perak to dissolve the Assembly and call for new elections to allow people to express their views on the changed number. The BN ill-thought out opportunism might well work against them in the long run.
"If we just accepted it as a fact of life, what would that say?"
That we were now a real third world banana republic...
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