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Monday, May 18, 2009
Speaker Martin: Open Thread
I'll be giving my reaction to the Speaker's statement shortly. In the meantime, feel free to give your own reaction in the comments here...
77 comments:
Anonymous
said...
How is it possible for him to avoind the chop ? While he is still in power, it jsut goes to show nothing has changed.
Oh dear. Business as usual. But what did come out is that the only way the no confidence motion can be debated is if the govt gives it time. Over to you Brown.
Speaker Martin is a total disgrace to his office. Anyone wanting to join the call for full transparency and immediate publication of MPs' expenses can do so here: http://www.petition.co.uk/publish_mp_expenses_in_full
Well, I watched the statement and the reaction of MPs. The only conclusion that I can draw is that Mr Martin intends to cling onto his office, probably re-stand at any general election, and therefore seems to be devoid of any shame. He claerly doesn't have the support of the public or the House, and any chance of drawing an end to this disaster is impossible as long as he is there.
Unbelievable - how typical is it of the Speaker that he had to ask the clerk whether MPs could debate his future as an early-day/substantive motion?! And how even more typical of the Westminster system that it wasn't procedurally possible to have the debate right away?! Grrr... C'mon Carswell, the country's behind you!
Sir Patrick managed to silence the entire house with his comments. Well Done!!
As usual Mr Martin appeared to be a fumbling old fool, who had to keep asking the clerk questions. Some good attacks against this awful speaker, lets wait for tommorrow :)
Is he aware how ridiculous he looked, sounded and how weak and pathetic his demeanour is. His position is completely erroded. Any normal member of the public watching that will see whole sale change is needed.
What an utter bellend. It was quite clear from the amount of noise and the reactions in the house that the no confidence motion needs to be debated. Indeed, the very fact that it was bought up (multiple times!!) shows how far the situation has gone!
Never has a chair been so out of touch. Never has a speaker acted so defensively against the interests of the country.
Oh Mickey It's your time, It's your time, To say goodbye, Hey Mickey! Hey, hey, Hey Mickey!
You've been Speaker for nine years And that's nine years too long Had your nose stuck in the trough, And been partisan and wrong, But can't you do what's right, And quit the Speaker's throne, Mickey?
'Cause when you said that you'd reform, You really meant you won't Now Carswell's little bill's Gonna get you by the throat, And you'll be forced to leave your grace-and-favour home, Mickey!
CHORUS Oh Mickey, what a pity You don't understand That Parliament's corrupt And you haven't made a stand, Oh Mickey, you've been shitty, Can't you understand, It's time to go, Mickey, Oh won't you go Mickey, go Mickey Just quit the job, Mickey!!
Does someone have a link to this? Caught literally the final seconds when he cut off an MP midway through a sentence and refused to let anyone else speak.
Quite clearly these people still don't get it. They are cocooned in their little world and believe that they are invincible from attack.
As one other says nothing has changed. That was a pathetic performance by Martin. They should look at themselves and feel ashamed. I suspect he is hanging on for his grace and favour pension?
His statement was just mealy-mouthed words. He's hanging on and hiding behind procedure trying to dodge the bullet with his name on it.
I've never, ever, seen such a pathetic and dishonourable man as him. Listening on headphones to the points of order, you could hear the voices of MPs in the background and they weren't impressed.
I was shocked at how badly that when for the Speaker, nothing he said will save his neck, in fact I think it will have made it worse for him. All he said was we will wait for the Kelly committee and have a meating with the party leaders.
Also the fact 5 MP called for him to go will undermine him even further, watch out for more names going onto the no confidence EDM.
While DC has so far resisted calling for the head of the Speaker, I think that his performance just now ill increase the pressure on DC to come out and call for him to go.
A guy who sits near me was telling his friend that his cousin works at the DT and he says they haven't published all of Gordons receipts yet. He said Gordon was told they were going to publish a "taster" - oh dear.
Michael Martin really is a profoundly stupid and unpleasant man. He must have a tin ear if he thinks that today's performance will address the electorate's worries and concerns.
typical of the socialists isnt it, the games up, everybody knows it, but still they cling to the wreckage and stick 2 fingers up. Gorbals knows he cant be touched and he is so arrogant and greedy he doesnt care about public opinion or is it because he is just thick!!
It is absurd - and symptomatic of the current impotence of the House of Commons - that backbenchers are completely unable to have substantive motions debated, irrespective of support for them in the House, unless approved by the government. I hope this afternoon's ridiculous spectacle will help alter that.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmselect/cmproced/513/51306.htm ...A number of Members, and others, have argued for the reintroduction of Private Members' Motions. We are sympathetic to this. It is a matter of some concern that the House of Commons does not provide an opportunity for a backbench Member to have a substantive motion debated and decided. We are not persuaded, however, that finding some way to debate certain EDMs would be the best way of addressing that concern. Dr Jack told us: I do agree with the sentiment that it is rather odd that private Members do not have the opportunity that you have alluded to, but somehow I do not think that this route is the right route, for some of the reasons we have already discussed; that in a way a lot of the purpose of early day motions is to give publicity to something or other that links, for example, … to the outside world in the sense of a campaign. And it actually may not be something that the Member would want to be debated in the House. I think that the matter of private Members' motions really is a separate matter and I think needs a different set of considerations.[83] 82. The Select Committee on Modernisation of the House of Commons is currently inquiring into the role of the backbencher and into the use of non-legislative time. We are aware that this issue has arisen in the context of those inquiries. We urge the Committee to give serious consideration to the reintroduction of an opportunity for Private Members to have substantive motions debated and, if necessary, voted on.
All that will happen is that the debate about reform (and the Speaker's future) will move from the Chamber of the Commons to the media parked on College Green.
In other words, this undermines the Commons.
Maybe a few more MPs will now sign Carswell's motion!
I just wish MP's would stop this shit about him "being made a scapegaote".
He isn't precieved as one by the electorate. He is just as culpable for the sleaze and theft of taxpayers money as the rest that have cheated and benefited!
He may not have filled in MP's expenses but her supported, facilitaed and tried to hide the fact that they were!
What a waste of time THAT was! He's definitely not a subscriber to the "How to win friends and influence people" course. To not allow the debate will be his death warrant, or at least it should be.
Someone push him in the Thames and be done with it. He has not a shred of understanding what he's done to the reputation of the house, and now he wants to bury it in another committee.
Well, we've news for him, this is too big an issue to be buried, and he's too stupid to look beyond his own narrow self preservation agenda...
Like watching a car crash. Unbelievable. The speakers says: oops, sorry, let's have a meeting. All the procedural stuff is one of the reasons I really hate parliamentary processes - arcane and anti-democratic.
I almost felt sorry for him. What an embarrassment. If the Government don't give time for a motion of no confidence in the Speaker it will be time for DC to act and withdraw support. It would be inexcusable and undermines him more thoroughly than anything else not to have this debated.
The Norway debate took place in 1940, to allow criticism of the government's conduct of the war. Two days later, Chamberlain resigned and Churchill took over. Technically it was an adjournment debate, but was treated like a vote of no confidence in the government...
I suggest what will have fatally damaged him is not the statement - useless and spineless though it was - but the crushing evidence in the points of order that followed that he simply doesn't have the intellectual ability or presence to chair the House of Commons. His constant need to refer to the Clerk shows his woeful grip on basic Parliamentary procedure after 9 years in the Chair. Go, in the name of God, go...but for being a useless Speaker in all senses. No more, no less.
This is a crisis for parliamentary democracy. Brown, Smith, and Martin seem to think that the State is what they are--even when confronting parliament. Under present circumstances they are pathetic doomed figures who are simply worsening their end, but other times might come when another gang was in power and it did have teeth. No doubt our "leaders" would snigger to hear this,but scenes like today's would have been unimagineable in the 19th century British parliament when law, morality, and above all constitutional principles all mattered. To restore constitutional principle, via the ballot box and public debate, is a civic duty for all Britons after Martin's disgraceful performance today. That the Lord that we are confronting a band of frightened fools rather than real Machievels.
By the way, I am writing this from the far end of Europe. BBC World Service TV news seems to be giving the story a miss at least at this time. Odd that.
Disgraceful. Where was the apology to Hoey which was meant to be a given?
He hasn't got a clue how to sort this out other than to try and rope the party leaders into going along with him. The fact that MPs were making points about giving Kelly more resources and he was pretty much saying that "I hadn't thought of that".
That Stuart Bell is an absolute tosser too. On what basis does he deserve a knighthood? Strip him of it asap.
On a procedural note, it would have been proper for Mr. Speaker to have stood down from the chair while points of order connected with his own behaviour and future were discussed. Why did none of our MPs have the balls to insist on this?
Having just listened to Sir Stuart Bell on BBC News 24 I am lost for words. Regarding Mr Speaker's statement it was what I expected him to say. It would appear that Mr Speaker is still totally out of touch with the general consensus of public opinion and the need for reform.
Why the determination to get rid of the ghastly old rascal? Surely it's better to have him clinging on there, bringing further daily embarrassment to the government all the way until the election, than make an undue martyr of him.
Get rid of him now, and the likelihood is that the new Speaker will be yet another Labour nodding-donkey. Brown may still be deluding himself that the Tory majority could be small enough for it to be useful to have a friendly casting vote.
The Speaker is the embodiment of Parliament's egregious excess. His own claims are risibly lavish. His own behaviour has been a template for the dishonourable members. Let's keep him there, for as long as it takes for this worthless government to topple, as the focus and target of our disdain. Let him not be scapegoated by being hounded into resignation, but scapegoated by being forced to stay.
It's no good waiting for the public bordering on hysteria before he takes any action. The country cannot be run on that basis.
The excuses being trotted out in his defence are poor. Some guy banging on about Martin not filling the forms in. I'm quite sure Fred Goodwin wasn't on the trading floor dealing with CDS's.
With any position of power comes responsibility (that is why he is paid a vast amount of money).
Martin (and his defenders) need to acknowledge that, and whilst he did not fill teh forms in, he was well aware of the allowances of which he himself took advantage of.
Go now, and it will still be with dignity otherwise face an incredibly embarrasing departure.
Why the determination to get rid of the ghastly old rascal? Surely it's better to have him clinging on there, bringing further daily embarrassment to the government all the way until the election, than make an undue martyr of him.
Get rid of him now, and the likelihood is that the new Speaker will be yet another Labour nodding-donkey. Brown may still be deluding himself that the Tory majority could be small enough for it to be useful to have a friendly casting vote.
The Speaker is the embodiment of Parliament's egregious excess. His own claims are risibly lavish. His own behaviour has been a template for the dishonourable members. Let's keep him there, for as long as it takes for this worthless government to topple, as the focus and target of our disdain. Let him not be scapegoated by being hounded into resignation, but scapegoated by being forced to stay.
Labour know it is tantamount to political suicide to be seen to be supporting Michael Martin in office and in a typical machiavellian way he has boxed them in. The ball is now in the Government's court, for the House to Debate his future the Government must give a "window of opportunity".
The Speaker will have made it known that he knows where all the bodies are buried when it comes to who knew and encouraged an expenses for favours regime. He will have put his terms for stepping down to the Government if he is not fully accomodated in his wishes then he will spill the beans.
I do not expect the Government to allow a debate on the Speaker's future but, they will not have to announce this due to the damage it will cause them (thats if it is possible to damage them further), I expect Michael Martin to announce in the next few days that he will step down from office at the summer recess.
His seat in the House of Lords and his £100,000 severance pay signed, sealed and delivered.
Another very bad day for the reputation of Parliament. And that the Speaker is indifferent to the damage his presence provokes, indifferent to the economic crisis and indifferent to calls for his resignation, tells all about him and this Government which has brought catastrophe on Britain.
A dire performance. I have not hear The Speaker before and was shocked. He has no presence or authority whatsoever and seems to have only the slenderest grasp of procedure.
This matter can't be kicked into touch. The revelations will continue - read the DT's revelations today about John Austin MP - fuelling public anger.
As a debate on the motion of no confidence is in the Government's hands, we know who is responsible.
Oh, the Norway Debate was in May 1940. It was the downfall of Chamberlain.
Mr Martins supporters in the House of Commons are the tribal, class warriors from the West of Scotland. The same people who laid bets that he would be speaker. Look no further than Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Renfrewshire and Ayrshire. The same drongo's from a trade union background that Labour in the West of Scotland always elects. The permanent 'chip on the shoulder Jocks' who are the UK's victims !!! You should see how little Martin has done for his constituents over the years, I should know my wife had to work among the poor souls.
It would have been refreshing to have seen some genuine anger in the chamber. But all the MPs just sat there like sheep. Why didn't someone get to their feet and demand that Martin's continuance be debated there and then. The MPs could have refused to continue with business until the matter was resolved. In doing that, we ordinary people might be persuaded that they are serious about reform. As it is, it appears to be lip service. A Danial Hannan moment is needed in the House of Commons.
These are scary times ... none of us knows how this will be resolved. But it's worth remembering that we have very often come out of crises like this stronger than before. So many unpleasant and insidious trends have developed over the last 20 years - this could be the opportunity to restore strong, open and accountable Parliamentary leadership, with all the benefits that would bring to our country. So let's not despair, but instead look at how we restore the good things in our constitution.
I agree that the Speaker needs to go but I am appalled at the impression being given by MP's that he's the cause of the problem when it's so clear that it's all of them who are at fault. Getting rid of the Speaker, while necessary, is only window dressing.
I watched with ever-increasing anger as it became apparent that firstly, we have a Speaker who cannot speak, and secondly, one who cannot even READ! His delivery was appalling, preposterous, inadequate, partisan and, finally, his rulings inaccurate!
Brown does himself no credit by making misleading statements that it is Parliament's responsibility to replace Martin. Martin himself stated today that in effect he was hiding behind the commons agenda-- which is set by the Government i.e. Brown. Martin should go NOW -Brown will no doubt try to hang on to his job until the last minute by delaying the election
Here's an idea for a new Endemol show for Channel 4. Presented by Ross Kemp; Michael Martin, the entire cabinet and the 'bagpipe in chief' are taken by armed guard to a secret location to meet with Bear Grylls for a week long crash course in basic survival techniques.
The following week they are all dressed in Union Jack boiler suits (with phone numbers on the back) armed with a butter knife each, given basic army rations and air dropped into Afganistan.
As an added twist the producers will have dyed the hair of all participants 'Hazel Blears' orange and surgically sown a harmonica on to Geoff Hoons face so that every time he breaths, a chirpy skiffle chord bursts forth potentially blowing what limited cover the group ends up finding.
Viewers will be encouraged to text bet on whether they reach specific checkpoints over a 4 week period. These will eventually lead to a military transport aircraft on standby.
Any honourable member that finds the aircraft will win a week's stay in a Novatel, job seekers allowance for life, a free council house and a criminal record.
They'd probably call it 'How Hard Is Your Member?' or something. I'd chew my own ball sack off to see that.
Early Day Motions are never taken seriously, they are often used to congratulate sportsman etc. The only way to secure a debate will be for the opposition front bench to table a motion of no confidence which the Govt could not ignore. Alternatively any member can move the adjournment of the House to discuss an important matter under Standing Order 20. However it is up to the Speaker to decide whether this can proceed! The only way the Speaker will go is if Brown and Cameron approach him and leave him with the equivalent of a pearl-handled revolver. If nothing happens this week then he will survive.
it's a shame it has come to this even now they haven't learned and ithink it unlikely in the near future that it will.. to many are still in denial.what is needed is a completely clean startwith non o of the old guard.
77 comments:
How is it possible for him to avoind the chop ? While he is still in power, it jsut goes to show nothing has changed.
I am so ****ing furious, my head is about to explode. No announcement of when he will go. No debate. Nothing. Aarrgghh! Seriously, I am SO ANGRY!!!!!!
No debate unless the Government OK it. Complete stitch up. We have been betrayed yet again.
I am disgusted.
The Speaker gave no indication of his intentions.
He must go.
What a dreadful situation..to remain in office but a lame duck. He will have the indignity of being cajoled out of office.
Oh and the statement---was too late and had too little.
Shocking
useless ... completely useless. He has made things worse.
This is what we call a 'petrol on the bonfire' scenario...
Oh dear. Business as usual. But what did come out is that the only way the no confidence motion can be debated is if the govt gives it time. Over to you Brown.
wholly inadequate.
he is fatally compomised.
Parliament needs to gather its resolve and remove him.
a sad, sad day.
Speaker Martin is a total disgrace to his office. Anyone wanting to join the call for full transparency and immediate publication of MPs' expenses can do so here: http://www.petition.co.uk/publish_mp_expenses_in_full
I feel that very soon Speaker Martin could be 'gone, gone and gone'
Well, I watched the statement and the reaction of MPs. The only conclusion that I can draw is that Mr Martin intends to cling onto his office, probably re-stand at any general election, and therefore seems to be devoid of any shame. He claerly doesn't have the support of the public or the House, and any chance of drawing an end to this disaster is impossible as long as he is there.
Mr Martin is obviously clinging onto power by the seat of his pants. I do hope that the proper debate can be had and a new speaker elected soon.
Always remember: Labour kept him in power.
Unbelievable - how typical is it of the Speaker that he had to ask the clerk whether MPs could debate his future as an early-day/substantive motion?! And how even more typical of the Westminster system that it wasn't procedurally possible to have the debate right away?!
Grrr... C'mon Carswell, the country's behind you!
On a human level I felt sorry for him. But he has to go. I actually felt uncomfortable watching Mp's attack the speaker in the chamber. Extraordinary.
how can he not not the processes of the house after 9 years in the chair?
Sir Patrick managed to silence the entire house with his comments. Well Done!!
As usual Mr Martin appeared to be a fumbling old fool, who had to keep asking the clerk questions. Some good attacks against this awful speaker, lets wait for tommorrow :)
Well I think we should have seen that coming really. Just proved the accusation that he simply doesn't get it.
Utterly disgraceful! Go now Mr Martin!
How pathetic was that? Does he not realise that he is part of the problem and not the solution - unless he goes?
Tough these metal workers - don't give in easy - no support though.
Been in Liebour to long - wanted another meeting, no doubt would have added a review if there already wasn't one.
A man who, if he came across a fire, would throw petrol on it.
Bringing the house into disrepute? It goes much, much further than that now.
Is he aware how ridiculous he looked, sounded and how weak and pathetic his demeanour is.
His position is completely erroded.
Any normal member of the public watching that will see whole sale change is needed.
What an utter bellend. It was quite clear from the amount of noise and the reactions in the house that the no confidence motion needs to be debated. Indeed, the very fact that it was bought up (multiple times!!) shows how far the situation has gone!
Never has a chair been so out of touch. Never has a speaker acted so defensively against the interests of the country.
I think a song's in Order (geddit).
This one springs to mind...
Hey Mickey!
Oh Mickey
It's your time,
It's your time,
To say goodbye,
Hey Mickey!
Hey, hey, Hey Mickey!
You've been Speaker for nine years
And that's nine years too long
Had your nose stuck in the trough,
And been partisan and wrong,
But can't you do what's right,
And quit the Speaker's throne, Mickey?
'Cause when you said that you'd reform,
You really meant you won't
Now Carswell's little bill's
Gonna get you by the throat,
And you'll be forced to leave your grace-and-favour home, Mickey!
CHORUS
Oh Mickey, what a pity
You don't understand
That Parliament's corrupt
And you haven't made a stand,
Oh Mickey, you've been shitty,
Can't you understand,
It's time to go, Mickey,
Oh won't you go Mickey, go Mickey
Just quit the job, Mickey!!
(A cheesy song for a laughable Speaker.)
Dungeekin
That was a woeful performance.
Brought an election much nearer though. Democracy under Brown/Martin is dead.
Does someone have a link to this? Caught literally the final seconds when he cut off an MP midway through a sentence and refused to let anyone else speak.
Quite clearly these people still don't get it. They are cocooned in their little world and believe that they are invincible from attack.
As one other says nothing has changed. That was a pathetic performance by Martin. They should look at themselves and feel ashamed. I suspect he is hanging on for his grace and favour pension?
http://www.plenty2say.com
His statement was just mealy-mouthed words. He's hanging on and hiding behind procedure trying to dodge the bullet with his name on it.
I've never, ever, seen such a pathetic and dishonourable man as him. Listening on headphones to the points of order, you could hear the voices of MPs in the background and they weren't impressed.
Neither was I.
I was shocked at how badly that when for the Speaker, nothing he said will save his neck, in fact I think it will have made it worse for him. All he said was we will wait for the Kelly committee and have a meating with the party leaders.
Also the fact 5 MP called for him to go will undermine him even further, watch out for more names going onto the no confidence EDM.
While DC has so far resisted calling for the head of the Speaker, I think that his performance just now ill increase the pressure on DC to come out and call for him to go.
BURN HIM!
A guy who sits near me was telling his friend that his cousin works at the DT and he says they haven't published all of Gordons receipts yet. He said Gordon was told they were going to publish a "taster" - oh dear.
Michael Martin really is a profoundly stupid and unpleasant man. He must have a tin ear if he thinks that today's performance will address the electorate's worries and concerns.
typical of the socialists isnt it, the games up, everybody knows it, but still they cling to the wreckage and stick 2 fingers up. Gorbals knows he cant be touched and he is so arrogant and greedy he doesnt care about public opinion or is it because he is just thick!!
It is absurd - and symptomatic of the current impotence of the House of Commons - that backbenchers are completely unable to have substantive motions debated, irrespective of support for them in the House, unless approved by the government.
I hope this afternoon's ridiculous spectacle will help alter that.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmselect/cmproced/513/51306.htm
...A number of Members, and others, have argued for the reintroduction of Private Members' Motions. We are sympathetic to this. It is a matter of some concern that the House of Commons does not provide an opportunity for a backbench Member to have a substantive motion debated and decided. We are not persuaded, however, that finding some way to debate certain EDMs would be the best way of addressing that concern. Dr Jack told us:
I do agree with the sentiment that it is rather odd that private Members do not have the opportunity that you have alluded to, but somehow I do not think that this route is the right route, for some of the reasons we have already discussed; that in a way a lot of the purpose of early day motions is to give publicity to something or other that links, for example, … to the outside world in the sense of a campaign. And it actually may not be something that the Member would want to be debated in the House. I think that the matter of private Members' motions really is a separate matter and I think needs a different set of considerations.[83]
82. The Select Committee on Modernisation of the House of Commons is currently inquiring into the role of the backbencher and into the use of non-legislative time. We are aware that this issue has arisen in the context of those inquiries. We urge the Committee to give serious consideration to the reintroduction of an opportunity for Private Members to have substantive motions debated and, if necessary, voted on.
All that will happen is that the debate about reform (and the Speaker's future) will move from the Chamber of the Commons to the media parked on College Green.
In other words, this undermines the Commons.
Maybe a few more MPs will now sign Carswell's motion!
Aaaarrrrghhh.
Just Aaaaarrrghhh.
Weasle - simples!
I just wish MP's would stop this shit about him "being made a scapegaote".
He isn't precieved as one by the electorate. He is just as culpable for the sleaze and theft of taxpayers money as the rest that have cheated and benefited!
He may not have filled in MP's expenses but her supported, facilitaed and tried to hide the fact that they were!
He ha got to go.
Our MP's could sort this in a heartbeat. They could just get up from their respective benches and refuse to return until a debate is granted. Simples!
I guess they just don't want to change the status quo...
What a waste of time THAT was! He's definitely not a subscriber to the "How to win friends and influence people" course. To not allow the debate will be his death warrant, or at least it should be.
Someone push him in the Thames and be done with it. He has not a shred of understanding what he's done to the reputation of the house, and now he wants to bury it in another committee.
Well, we've news for him, this is too big an issue to be buried, and he's too stupid to look beyond his own narrow self preservation agenda...
Absolute disgrace. A clear stitch up with the help of the Government. Time to take to the streets?
Like watching a car crash. Unbelievable. The speakers says: oops, sorry, let's have a meeting. All the procedural stuff is one of the reasons I really hate parliamentary processes - arcane and anti-democratic.
He's ignoring it, sticking his fingers in his ears and going la, la, la hoping it will go away. A typical Labour reaction to reality.
I am also furious. I expected him to do the honourable thing and resign!
What a farce - no debate, nothing and then shut down.
Was this his LALALA I'm not listening defence?
WTF?
Who does he think he is?!?!
He is now burnt toast.
I almost felt sorry for him. What an embarrassment. If the Government don't give time for a motion of no confidence in the Speaker it will be time for DC to act and withdraw support. It would be inexcusable and undermines him more thoroughly than anything else not to have this debated.
So is it this, fast becoming the most unpopular, corrupt, DIRTY government in history that want this no good speaker to stay????
ELECTION, NOW NOW NOW!
I am sure Mr Martin's aim is to destroy Parliament's reputation.
He is succeeding.
The Norway debate took place in 1940, to allow criticism of the government's conduct of the war. Two days later, Chamberlain resigned and Churchill took over. Technically it was an adjournment debate, but was treated like a vote of no confidence in the government...
I suggest what will have fatally damaged him is not the statement - useless and spineless though it was - but the crushing evidence in the points of order that followed that he simply doesn't have the intellectual ability or presence to chair the House of Commons. His constant need to refer to the Clerk shows his woeful grip on basic Parliamentary procedure after 9 years in the Chair. Go, in the name of God, go...but for being a useless Speaker in all senses. No more, no less.
A march on parliament sounds like a good idea. I can hear the chants now: "Mickey, Mickey, Mickey, Out, Out Out!"
This is a crisis for parliamentary democracy. Brown, Smith, and Martin seem to think that the State is what they are--even when confronting parliament. Under present circumstances they are pathetic doomed figures who are simply worsening their end, but other times might come when another gang was in power and it did have teeth. No doubt our "leaders" would snigger to hear this,but scenes like today's would have been unimagineable in the 19th century British parliament when law, morality, and above all constitutional principles all mattered. To restore constitutional principle, via the ballot box and public debate, is a civic duty for all Britons after Martin's disgraceful performance today. That the Lord that we are confronting a band of frightened fools rather than real Machievels.
By the way, I am writing this from the far end of Europe. BBC World Service TV news seems to be giving the story a miss at least at this time. Odd that.
Disgraceful. Where was the apology to Hoey which was meant to be a given?
He hasn't got a clue how to sort this out other than to try and rope the party leaders into going along with him. The fact that MPs were making points about giving Kelly more resources and he was pretty much saying that "I hadn't thought of that".
That Stuart Bell is an absolute tosser too. On what basis does he deserve a knighthood? Strip him of it asap.
On a procedural note, it would have been proper for Mr. Speaker to have stood down from the chair while points of order connected with his own behaviour and future were discussed. Why did none of our MPs have the balls to insist on this?
He has just made the whole issue Gordon Brown's problem.
He was the lightning-rod for the public's anger and his showing just now merely passed the batton to the PM.
Brown is now in the situation of having to get rid of him himself - marvellous. Catch 22.
Having just listened to Sir Stuart Bell on BBC News 24 I am lost for words. Regarding Mr Speaker's statement it was what I expected him to say. It would appear that Mr Speaker is still totally out of touch with the general consensus of public opinion and the need for reform.
Why the determination to get rid of the ghastly old rascal? Surely it's better to have him clinging on there, bringing further daily embarrassment to the government all the way until the election, than make an undue martyr of him.
Get rid of him now, and the likelihood is that the new Speaker will be yet another Labour nodding-donkey. Brown may still be deluding himself that the Tory majority could be small enough for it to be useful to have a friendly casting vote.
The Speaker is the embodiment of Parliament's egregious excess. His own claims are risibly lavish. His own behaviour has been a template for the dishonourable members. Let's keep him there, for as long as it takes for this worthless government to topple, as the focus and target of our disdain. Let him not be scapegoated by being hounded into resignation, but scapegoated by being forced to stay.
Not good enough I'm afraid.
It's no good waiting for the public bordering on hysteria before he takes any action.
The country cannot be run on that basis.
The excuses being trotted out in his defence are poor. Some guy banging on about Martin not filling the forms in.
I'm quite sure Fred Goodwin wasn't on the trading floor dealing with CDS's.
With any position of power comes responsibility (that is why he is paid a vast amount of money).
Martin (and his defenders) need to acknowledge that, and whilst he did not fill teh forms in, he was well aware of the allowances of which he himself took advantage of.
Go now, and it will still be with dignity otherwise face an incredibly embarrasing departure.
Cameron needs to find his cojones and tell the Speaker to go, now. This can't dribble on until the next election.
Why the determination to get rid of the ghastly old rascal? Surely it's better to have him clinging on there, bringing further daily embarrassment to the government all the way until the election, than make an undue martyr of him.
Get rid of him now, and the likelihood is that the new Speaker will be yet another Labour nodding-donkey. Brown may still be deluding himself that the Tory majority could be small enough for it to be useful to have a friendly casting vote.
The Speaker is the embodiment of Parliament's egregious excess. His own claims are risibly lavish. His own behaviour has been a template for the dishonourable members. Let's keep him there, for as long as it takes for this worthless government to topple, as the focus and target of our disdain. Let him not be scapegoated by being hounded into resignation, but scapegoated by being forced to stay.
Labour know it is tantamount to political suicide to be seen to be supporting Michael Martin in office and in a typical machiavellian way he has boxed them in. The ball is now in the Government's court, for the House to Debate his future the Government must give a "window of opportunity".
The Speaker will have made it known that he knows where all the bodies are buried when it comes to who knew and encouraged an expenses for favours regime. He will have put his terms for stepping down to the Government if he is not fully accomodated in his wishes then he will spill the beans.
I do not expect the Government to allow a debate on the Speaker's future but, they will not have to announce this due to the damage it will cause them (thats if it is possible to damage them further), I expect Michael Martin to announce in the next few days that he will step down from office at the summer recess.
His seat in the House of Lords and his £100,000 severance pay signed, sealed and delivered.
A bloody disgrace . I couldn`t believe what I was hearing, surely there must be a way to make him go.
Another very bad day for the reputation of Parliament. And that the Speaker is indifferent to the damage his presence provokes, indifferent to the economic crisis and indifferent to calls for his resignation, tells all about him and this Government which has brought catastrophe on Britain.
A dire performance. I have not hear The Speaker before and was shocked. He has no presence or authority whatsoever and seems to have only the slenderest grasp of procedure.
This matter can't be kicked into touch. The revelations will continue - read the DT's revelations today about John Austin MP - fuelling public anger.
As a debate on the motion of no confidence is in the Government's hands, we know who is responsible.
Oh, the Norway Debate was in May 1940. It was the downfall of Chamberlain.
Mr Martins supporters in the House of Commons are the tribal, class warriors from the West of Scotland. The same people who laid bets that he would be speaker. Look no further than Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Renfrewshire and Ayrshire. The same drongo's from a trade union background that Labour in the West of Scotland always elects. The permanent 'chip on the shoulder Jocks' who are the UK's victims !!! You should see how little Martin has done for his constituents over the years, I should know my wife had to work among the poor souls.
It would have been refreshing to have seen some genuine anger in the chamber. But all the MPs just sat there like sheep. Why didn't someone get to their feet and demand that Martin's continuance be debated there and then. The MPs could have refused to continue with business until the matter was resolved. In doing that, we ordinary people might be persuaded that they are serious about reform. As it is, it appears to be lip service. A Danial Hannan moment is needed in the House of Commons.
The whole fiasco is confirmation of the corruption of patronage and the lack of checks and balances on the Executive.
The Speaker is the last guard in front of the bunker doors. He knows that he is in a secure foxhole, protected from an attack from the rear.
Those in the bunker are obliged to support him because if he is overcome there is no telling how far into the bunker the attack will reach...
These are scary times ... none of us knows how this will be resolved. But it's worth remembering that we have very often come out of crises like this stronger than before. So many unpleasant and insidious trends have developed over the last 20 years - this could be the opportunity to restore strong, open and accountable Parliamentary leadership, with all the benefits that would bring to our country. So let's not despair, but instead look at how we restore the good things in our constitution.
This is a sad day for British democracy. If only Betty would renounce her peerage, get elected as an MP and become Speaker again.
My reaction here
Funny. Nobody would take my bet.
Petition on No. 10 site to call a general election now: http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/GoToCountryNow/
Surprisingly few signatures
The Prime Minister must now make time for the debate - he can no longer say it is only a matter for the house
I agree that the Speaker needs to go but I am appalled at the impression being given by MP's that he's the cause of the problem when it's so clear that it's all of them who are at fault. Getting rid of the Speaker, while necessary, is only window dressing.
I watched with ever-increasing anger as it became apparent that firstly, we have a Speaker who cannot speak, and secondly, one who cannot even READ! His delivery was appalling, preposterous, inadequate, partisan and, finally, his rulings inaccurate!
Brown does himself no credit by making misleading statements that it is Parliament's responsibility to replace Martin. Martin himself stated today that in effect he was hiding behind the commons agenda-- which is set by the Government i.e. Brown.
Martin should go NOW -Brown will no doubt try to hang on to his job until the last minute by delaying the election
Here's an idea for a new Endemol show for Channel 4. Presented by Ross Kemp; Michael Martin, the entire cabinet and the 'bagpipe in chief' are taken by armed guard to a secret location to meet with Bear Grylls for a week long crash course in basic survival techniques.
The following week they are all dressed in Union Jack boiler suits (with phone numbers on the back) armed with a butter knife each, given basic army rations and air dropped into Afganistan.
As an added twist the producers will have dyed the hair of all participants 'Hazel Blears' orange and surgically sown a harmonica on to Geoff Hoons face so that every time he breaths, a chirpy skiffle chord bursts forth potentially blowing what limited cover the group ends up finding.
Viewers will be encouraged to text bet on whether they reach specific checkpoints over a 4 week period. These will eventually lead to a military transport aircraft on standby.
Any honourable member that finds the aircraft will win a week's stay in a Novatel, job seekers allowance for life, a free council house and a criminal record.
They'd probably call it 'How Hard Is Your Member?' or something.
I'd chew my own ball sack off to see that.
Early Day Motions are never taken seriously, they are often used to congratulate sportsman etc. The only way to secure a debate will be for the opposition front bench to table a motion of no confidence which the Govt could not ignore. Alternatively any member can move the adjournment of the House to discuss an important matter under Standing Order 20. However it is up to the Speaker to decide whether this can proceed! The only way the Speaker will go is if Brown and Cameron approach him and leave him with the equivalent of a pearl-handled revolver. If nothing happens this week then he will survive.
it's a shame it has come to this even now they haven't learned and ithink it unlikely in the near future that it will.. to many are still in denial.what is needed is a completely clean startwith non o
of the old guard.
concerned
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