Monday, July 16, 2007
Rocket Attacks on Israel Justified Says Palestinian Ambassador
Tonight at 8pm 18 Doughty Street is broadcasting a 60 minute interview with the Palestinian Ambassador in London, Manuel Hassassian. Click above to watch a three minute taster. During the interview, he asserts...
* that rocket attacks on Israel from Gaza, the West Bank or Lebanon are justified - even if innocent civilians are killed;
* that the famous footage of Palestinians dancing for joy on the streets on 9/11 was faked by the Israelis;
* that Hamas should apologise to the Palestinian people; and says that while the Taleban may have been a little excessive in their modus operandi, at least they kept order.
You can watch the full programme HERE.
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59 comments:
An excellent spokesman. He deserves more media exposure. Calm, rational and a clear insight into the Palestinian intellectual perspective. Well done Iain for giving him the chance to make his case.
Calm and rational equals being in favour of rocket attacks and thinking the Taliban were just a bit hot-headed?
If that is what passes for being a moderate in Palestinian politics, then no wonder the Israelis believe they don't have a partner for peace....
I always knew the Palestinians were a hopless case as their representatives manage to present their case in the worst way possible.
It is hard not to sympathise with the sate they are in: it is equally hard not to feel they do their level best to ensure it gets no better.
The Israelis and the Palestinians deserve each other imo.
I'm sick and tired of the apologists for terror attacks being given air-space. I think most of these eejits are given an 'easy time' by westerners because they are 'coloured' and 'not as bright as us' ( and western interviewer- probably a lefty of bbc or channel 4- sends em off with a pat on the head)- what bollocks. They know exactly what they are saying - and doing. I think the approach taken by Mark Lamarr over Shabba Ranks needs to be taken. Ranks said to Lamarr something along the lines that all homosexuals should be crucified. Lamarr just said there and then- that's a load of s*it. And didn't let him get away with any other nonsence.
Nuke "Palestine"!
'The Nazis may have been a little excessive in their methods, but they kept things in order. And they even managed to build those wonderful autobahns!'
Discuss.
During the interview, he asserts...
* that rocket attacks on Israel from Gaza, the West Bank or Lebanon are justified - even if innocent civilians are killed;
* that the famous footage of Palestinians dancing for joy on the streets on 9/11 was faked by the Israelis;
* that Hamas should apologise to the Palestinian people; and says that while the Taleban may have been a little excessive in their modus operandi, at least they kept order.
In other words, this "moderate" says that it's perfectly OK to kill people at random for no reason;
that nutty conspiracy theories are true;
and that a brutal theocracy is all right, as long as there's civil order.
Yup, sure sounds like a "peace partner."
If I was a Palestinian and I looked at the map, It would seem pretty obvious to me that the game plan is Greater Israel. If I lived in Gaza I might think that my life is going to be made as difficult as possible until, eventually, I give up and go away (which is what I was meant to do in the 1960s).
This is a Mexican standoff and it has decades to run - maybe even into the next century, unless there is a sea change in the Arab world (the caliphate!!!).
Incidentally, the spokesman's namestyle would indicate that he is of the Christian persuasion - so not an obvious proponent of the Muslim state of victimhood.
"the famous footage of Palestinians dancing for joy on the streets on 9/11 was faked by the Israelis".
I think blaming it on the Israelis is going too far, though the footage was clearly dodgy at the time (you didn't have to be a cameraman to noticing the extreme close-cropping and the fact that there were only about 5 people).
"while the Taleban may have been a little excessive in their modus operandi, at least they kept order."
I'm happy to listen to the comments in full rather than condemn the man based on Iain's paraphrase. I would point out though that this was exactly the attitude the US (& UK) took in the years leading up to "nine eleven" - until it suited them, in other words.
Mr Assassin, what an apt name and what total crap springs forth from this apologist for terrorism.
I hate the Israelis but if this is what they are up against, then maybe they have a point.
I trust Doughty St will have an equally extreme Zionist apologist on very soon so that we can see what total nutters they all are.
If you watch BBC world (difficult to do I know!) the entire Asian news bulletin is consumed with Muslims killing each other in Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Africa and Philippines. Add the Palestinians and the Israelis and one wonders if it will ever end. The conclusion sadly, is that it will not. Extremism breeds extremism and there is no rationl or logical argument that they will listen to.
"while the Taleban may have been a little excessive in their modus operandi, at least they kept order."
Whilst this might sound a bit like a Mussolini moment, or as Judith writes, a Hitler moment, here is a man who understands the Middle East in a way that we do not.
Saddam Hussein kept order, of a sort. You could walk around in Baghdad at night. It has long been my theory that had the Americans imposed strict Marshall Law in Iraq after they invaded it (illegally), along with summary justice, shooting on sight of looters and a lot of public floggings, the place today would be a lot safer.
They do things differently over there and understand might and tyranny.
We have to get away from our very very Western idea of what is right and wrong with the Middle East. The problem is that our public broadcaster is so anti-Israel that it is impossible to get a clear picture.
I hope Iain, that you can balance this fascinating debate with a contribution from the Israeli Ambassador.
So you liked him then Iain?
Anyway, to all the other commentators, please do consider what a spokesperson for the State of Israel might say on the three issues Iain highlights:
* that rocket attacks on Israel from Gaza, the West Bank or Lebanon are justified - even if innocent civilians are killed;
That strafing of innocent people in Gaza, Cana, anywhere really is justified for Israel's Security.
* that the famous footage of Palestinians dancing for joy on the streets on 9/11 was faked by the Israelis;
That XY and Z have been faked by Arabs and anti-semites (and I'm not saying that assertion's untrue before any of you start).
* that Hamas should apologise to the Palestinian people; and says that while the Taleban may have been a little excessive in their modus operandi, at least they kept order.
That Hamas should apologise. And that while the wall, the border crossings, the shooting of peaceniks, the strafing of Lebanon, the potential nuking of Teheran are a little excessive in their modus operandi, at least they kept order.
As so often in these cases the discourse is horribly similar on both sides of the argument. You can say there is no equivalence as loudly and as often as you wish as you promote one side or the other. But the discourse is mirrored.
If we want progress we need to break that cycle. [touch of irony]Which is where honest brokers like Daniel Pipes and Tony Blair come in.[/touch of irony] I wish Blair luck by the way and don't think Pipes is quite as bad as people say ...
Well done Iain for producing this. I'm not sure about the 30-second elevator pitch. But I will be watching this one with interest.
I hope Israel waste the lot of them.
And they will.
If a society cannot accept any form of democracy then the only way in which it can be ruled is by an autocrat - Dictator, King, Emperor, Chairman of the Soviets, what you will.
We see absolutely no sign whatsoever of enduring democracy in any religious-dominated state [Muslim or otherwise] and we never will although the secular Turkey at least makes a shot at it.
That is why Saddam Hussain and the Mullah Omar and the Ayatollah Kolmeini were able to rule such troublesome people - utilising para-military police and fanatical militias to suppress opposition.
Such rulers are not to be applauded but there is no other way for some states to be ruled.
All of that said, we should not give representaives of such states a platform from which to spew their bile and hatreds. If various extremist Muslim factions will cease absolutely all terrorist operations against Israel I am confident that a settlement will be achieved very quickly. Israel does not wish to live in fear and in conflict every day - they have endured almost 60 years of it.
Victor
When I read this posting my first thought was: "What inane comment will we see from Chris Paul?" As we can see, moral relativism is alive and well in the Paul household.
Victor,
Modern-day Israel was the result of a two thousand year wait. The new Israel has a fifty year history and look how it has expanded its borders in that time. Following recent immigration it needs yet more living space, hence the growth of the settlements. I think there are many who would put up with another fifty years of border strife in order to realise this goal.
Of course, this all rather depends on being able to keep the US military engaged in the Middle East. Peace with the Palestinians (albeit temporary) would send out a counterproductive message to the White House in this regard. Still, in such a complex situation who the hell knows what's going on.
Am I alone in having no sympathy whatsoever for the Palestinians?
Dedicated for the last 50 years to the annihilation of the only democratic state in the Middle East they have repeatedly chosen corrupt and incompetent leaders who have spurned every opportunity for peace.
Instead, they have chosen to live in a state of perpetual war with their more powerful neighbours. An unwise decision, in my view.
And since you ask, I am neither a Jew nor an Israeli.
"the Israelis believe they don't have a partner for peace"
The Israelis prefer to have a partner in pieces. Starting with the British Army at the King David hotel.
The Israelis are an anti-jewish inheritor of the european credo of 'National Socialism'. But of course Ken Livingstone's famous concentration camp joke was wrong - we all know that the first concentration camps were pioneered by the British in South Afrika in the Boer War.
With views like that he should be a member of the Lib Dems!
machiavelli, what a tedious and inaccurate slight. Plenty of old fashioned anti-Semites in the Conservatives, plenty of friends of Israel in the Lib Dems.
http://www.ldfi.org.uk/
trumpeter lanfried says Israel is the only democratic state in the middle east.
Wrong. Israel is a theocracy with democratic trappings.
Israeli sovereignty lies with holy writ and not with the people, which is the definition of democracy.
In a democracy the only thing Parliament cannot do is turn a man into a woman.
In Israel not even the planes are free to fly on a Saturday because religious law forbids it.
Why do people believe Israeli lies that it is a democracy?
Unusal to disagree completely with Trumpeter Lanfried but the Palestinians were ejected from their ancestoral lands 59 years ago (within living memory) and ,even now,the West Bank is being parcelled back to them in pieces resembling apartheid era homelands subject to the illegal settlements.I disagree with the ambassador but understand his position.
I don't think it can be called news but its a slight improvement on Israel's loony excuses for bombing, killing, torturing and imprisoning the Palestinians.
So Tony can we presume you are a moral absolutist or realist? In which case you presumably would condemn both sides for self-evident immoral acts? Or was 'moral relativism' just a cheap snipe at Chris Paul, who for once took the time to post something that wasn't the verbal equivalent of 'up yours' and even strayed into the territory of making sense? As I read them, his words had nothing to do with moral relativism, and much more to do with the mutual bullshitting that Israeli and Palestinian representatives seem to engage in constantly.
Bollocks to what some olive farmer thinks.
Boris is the story of the day, throughout the country
The Israelis are an anti-jewish inheritor of the european credo of 'National Socialism'.
MORON ALERT!
"MORON ALERT!"
So you've announced yourself C4. What have you got to say?
The abused often become abusers.
Anonymous said at 2.52:
"We all know that the first concentration camps were pioneered by the British in South Afrika in the Boer War".
Concentration camps, devised to separate non-combatant civilian populations from insurgents were first used about 1895 by the Spanish fighting insurgents in Cuba. The objective was to remove sources of succour, food and comfort from the rebels.
They were used in the same way in the Second Boer War as a scorched earth policy was followed [in this imperialistic war]. Unfortunately disease swept through some of the camps carrying off internees and guards alike.
Neither in Cuba nor in South Africa were they designed as death camps. Enemy non-combatants were detained on the Isle of Man in WWII but they had little complaint about their treatment - I met several of them 10 or 15 years later. Comparing those internments with Dachau or Auschwitz is fairly silly.
Victor
Since the Zionists half inched a lot of land from the Palestinians back in '48, it is not surprising that the Palestinians are still a tad upset. The Spanish want Gibralter back (they even nicked a ship in International waters there recently - state sanctioned piracy). The Argies still want The Falklands back. No doubt the British (ie the Welsh) would like all the land that the English nicked from them starting in the 500s AD.
Where do we stop?
Quite right, free Tibet & Cyprus!
"free Tibet & Cyprus!"
in every packet of Sugar Puffs!
Why has this odious man been granted the title of 'Ambassador' even as an honorific? There is no such Office as "Palestinian Ambassador in London": 'representative maybe'. Any 'Ambassador' who expressed obnoxious views such as this would be given the Order of the Boot forthwith.
Whilst exposing him to the oxygen of publicity is entirely right so that he and his kind may be seen for what they are, dressing him up as something grand and official when he is no more and no less than yet another apologist for terrorism is surely a serious misjudgement.
"yet another apologist for terrorism "
jealous, huntsman, that you're eing displaced in this role?
Ugh. Click on the video? No thanks, I've heard enough of this terrorist creep just from the quotes reproduced under the video link. If I hear any more from this vile Jew-hating snake, I'll probably throw something at the monitor (and as the nearest object happens to be a glass of rather nice French white, I'd rather not do that).
What is Hassassin even doing in this country? He should have been arrested and detained as a terror suspect the moment he stepped onto the tarmac.
if the palestinians were treating teh israelis the way israelis are treating palestinians would views be the same
if the palestinians were treating teh israelis the way israelis are treating palestinians would views be the same?
No, of course not.
If the Israelis were using suicide bombers, often children, and deliberately targetting civilians in bomb attacks, and if Israel was deliberately herding civilians and using them as human shields around target areas, and if the "Palestinians" (inverted commas because they have never had a state and have never even been referred to as a race or nation prior to the 1960's) were going out of their way to avoid civilian casualties in their calm, measured responses to such attacks, then yes of course my views would be very different. Good point!
When I see logic like that from Tom Tyler, I despair somewhat that our prisons are not more available.
Oh, don't worry, anon. Your lot will soon start releasing rapists, paedophiles and murderers (you know, the trivial, non-serious sort of criminals) in order to make room for locking up the really serious "hate criminals" such as myself, people who hate Islamic terrorism and other things which are evil. Such views must not be allowed, as there is "no place for such views in our society! LOL!
I live near Slough and I am reliably informed that at a school in Chalvey Arab children were also seen dancing for joy on 9/11. Presumably that was faked by the Israelis too, who also staged the attacks themselves?
Nice quotations from George Young, erstwhile MI6 Station Chief in Middle East - listed in Stephen Dorril's book "MI6" page 569
no matter whatever wealth or material welfare they may acquire, either by their own acute intelligence or by the fruits of Western development and commerce, a point will always come when the discrepancy between their dreams and the reality becomes too great to bear, and there will be a desperate effort to find relief in a new focus of hate…………………
The Arab’s chief characteristic is a simple joy in destruction which has to be experienced to be believed….There is no gladder sound to the Arab ear than the crunch of glass, and his favourite spectacle is that of human suffering…..While the European has been building, the Arab has looted and torn down.
That the ONLY solution to this problem is a fair 2 state solution.
However, I can understand Palestinian frustration.
Watch the following and tell me if you disagree....
http://youtube.com/watch?v=rXq57XK2L0A
Trumpeter Lanfried said...
"Am I alone in having no sympathy whatsoever for the Palestinians?"
No you certainly are not. It's just that the pro-terrorists have very big mouths and many of them 'work' for the al-beeb propaganda organisation.
I think it is sad that unwavering support of Israel is offered by a lot of people on the right. In the long run it will do them no good, as the longer the Palestinians are living under a military occupation (lets not forget, they have lived under a military occupation for 40 years) the more radicalised Muslims will become, as you often see these imams on television using this issue as a way to pull more moderate Muslims onto their side. The longer this is allowed to continue, the more at risk the actual continuance of the state of Israel becomes. Imagine in 10 or 20 years, the Palestinians are still under occupation, and the Muslim brotherhood take over Egypt. Then Jordan could easily fall. A bit of short term pain for Israel will probably do more good in the long run.
Both sides of this conflict behave terribly, and I think taking a step back and having an objective view of this would do everyone some good. After all, I don't see this indignation when Mark Regev comes on tv and tries to justify the bombardment of northern gaza by shells, or missile attacks on buildings.
Nothing is ever black and white, and Israel = Good, Palestine = bad is a foolish view.
Arnie, Good point you've made. Personally, I'm disappointed with 18DS for inviting a terrorist supporter into the studio. Shows 18DS is no different to the BBC?
Arnie said...
"the Palestinians are living under a military occupation (lets not forget, they have lived under a military occupation for 40 years)"
Rather more accurate to say that the Jews (and Christians) lived under Islamic military occupation for over a thousand years.
The Islamic hordes lost their right to rule through their defeat in World War 1. They should therefore sod off back to some oasis in Arabia and leave Palestine (all of it) to its rightful owners i.e. mainly the Jews.
Yes, it's all the Palestinian's fault for living there in the first place, isn't it? How dare they target poor widdle innocent civilians. After all, we in the enlightened West take every precaution possible to minimise our collateral damage! You sick racist neo-imperialist arseholes make me ashamed to be English. Actually, these days it doesn't take very much at all to make me ashamed to be in English. Taking the tube to work in the morning usually does it.
Mr Papps,
I think you have grasped the wrong end of the stick, old chap. The imperialists were pretty much of an Arabist disposition, although this may have been motivated more by issues of sexuality than an affinity with the culture. Chin-chin.
I would strongly recommend everyone to see this piece. Well done to Donal Blaney and Mike Rouse on producing such a good conversation with an obviously highly intelligent and well motivated partner for peace.
Do not be put off by the unfortunate 30-second escalator pitch attached by Iain. Not quotes and not an adequate refelection of the dialogue.
The Doughty player with no pause or recap is inadequate though so be ready to watch in one one-hour sitting.
Post script
I'd like to say I have to be utterly amazed at the condemnation for this academic from people who have not watched the trailer never mind the show.
The trailer and Iain's plug played into their hands though obviously. Rather like the Queen flouncing out piece from your beloved Beeb in refelecting the true content of that programme.
No such thing as Israeli "citizens" - they are all soliders.
anon at 7.41am, You seem to (purposely?) forget about the Palestinian Christians. But I suppose they wouldn't fit your argument, would they?
Do you think Blair was right to apologise for slavery, even though non of us had anything to do with it? I hope you don't. But by the same token, why is it alright to punish the Palestinians for something that stopped happening 90 years ago (give or take)? I doubt there are that many 90 year old Palestinians.
Try again.
Arnie, Good point you've made. Personally, I'm disappointed with 18DS for inviting a terrorist supporter into the studio. Shows 18DS is no different to the BBC?
At least you're not forced to pay for 18DS by law.
The anonymous coward who accused Israel of being racist against the Jews is clearly a confounded moron as the anonymong's statement speaks for itself.
arnie[ 11.16 PM] You say, "Nothing is ever black and white ..."
I don't agree. Some things, are evil, full stop. We can all think of examples.
Terrorist groups, when they do evil, often resort to 'whataboutism', as in, "Sure we have killed innocent civilians but WHAT ABOUT [insert evil deed committed by the other side].
We saw this argument at its most absurd in Northern Ireland as in, "Sure, we are killing innocent civilians but WHAT ABOUT Bloody Sunday (1972), the Easter Rising (1916), the potato famine (1846) and the battle of the Boyne (1690)."
The same thing is now happening in Palestine and it's absurd.
That's one reason why I have no sympathy for the Palestinians.
The second reason is that to wage war, year after year, on a more powerful enemy which, realistically you can never hope to defeat, is in itself a war crime; the perpetuation of war for its own sake.
Tom tyler, you seem a bit barmy TBH. I mean, I was with you until you implied that the Israelis are known for "going out of their way to avoid civilian casualties in their calm, measured responses to [attack]". Man, you're as much a victim of propaganda as those you mock.
Scary biscuit - children in school playgrounds do tend to jump up and down a lot, smile etc.. Granted you don't say how old the children were, but most schools don't have 24hr news channels running in the dining room either.
Arnie said...
...a load of confused twaddle.
Learn some history and stop parroting whatever lie happens to currently suit the enemies of the West.
All this weeping over terrorists getting themselves killed is disgusting (and very un-English).
I suggest reading Israeli military historian Martin Van Creveld. He's got some interesting stuff to say about all this, namely:
1) Israel cannot defeat the Palestinians militarily. Attempting to do so is destroying Israeli society since wars against weak parties tend to fracture society whereas wars against strong opposition brings people together.
2) In fact no strong military power can completely crush a popular resistance movement. Moreover, if the strong party wins a battle they are seen as a bully; If they lose they are denounced as idiots.
3) Israel should finish the wall, get out the territories and leave the Palestinians to it.
He is apparently the only foreign theorist on the required reading list for US military officers.
My personal favourite quote:
"For misleading the American people, and launching the most foolish war since Emperor Augustus in 9 A.D sent his legions into Germany and lost them, Bush deserves to be impeached ...."
Read his articles online at Forward.
It looks as if hardly anyone here understands that 'Israel' was created on the destruction of Palestine by terrorists and the expulsion of 700/800,000 indigenous Palestinians in 1948, followed by the grabbing of the remaining 22% of Palestine in 1967, with the expulsion of at least another 250,000 Palestinians. The "terrorists" attacking "innocent Israelis" want their country back and they will direct rockets at them so long as their fellow Palestinians are treated like dirt. If the 'Israelis' want to stay in Palestine, they should learn how to live there as welcome guests, not cynical supremacists.
In June alone, they killed 49 Palestinians and injured 147, in2,380 attacks.
I hope that some of you watched Sir David Steel's programme on the Mau Mau "terrorists" tortured and massacred by the British in the 50's. The "terrorists" won in the end!
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