This afternoon I was walking down Victoria Street. I stopped outside the Voadfone shop to admire the new Blackberry Storm in the window. I stood there for a couple of minutes before I was approached by a Policeman. "Good afternoon, Sir, I am arresting you on suspicion that you might be about the commit an act of theft of a Blackberry."
"But officer, not only have I not stolen it, I haven't even been in the shop and touched it," I said in consternation. "Ah, sir, but you look as if you might. We can't be having that, can we? You're nicked."
Later on a police car turned up at my office and later at my home in Kent to conduct a search to establish whether I already had a secret stash of Blackberry Storms hidden away somewhere.
It was then that I woke up. Luckily it was all a nightmare. After all, how preposterous would it be to arrest someone on the pretext that they might, possibly, just might commit an offence.
Couldn't happen here, could it? That sort of thing doesn't happen in democracies.
I won't mention the words 'Police' and 'State' in the same sentence as I know how much it upsets Tom Harris.
For those who think I have lost it, this all relates to Jacqui Smith's statement in the Commons when she said that national security issues were involved in the Damian Green case as he might - might - have been leaked national security information, even if he hadn't used it. Hence he was arrested on the basis of an offence he might possibly commit, rather than one he necessarily had.
46 comments:
She is barking. The really frightening thing is how someone of such small brain gets to be Home Secretary.
Someone in the Cabinet is obviously a movie buff.
They've already done the remake of 1984.
Now they're on to Minority Report and the "precrime" department of the police.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority_Report_(film)
How long before the DNA Database is the basis of Gattaca II: Jackie's revenge?
Um... that is exactly what happens with stop and search... and I do believe that Dave Cameron was rather hot for streamlining the entire process for greater efficiency by getting rid of all that tedious paperwork that helps stop any abuses of power.
One law for everyone Iain, the Tories can't complain just because they're the ones being hit over the head with it this time. Stand up against all the abuses in future.
Iain,
I have emailed a picture of you to every Audi dealership in the country and warned them of the potential danger of that you may think about, in your dreams, stealing a Q5...........
I have advised them to alert their local Inspector Knacker.....
National Security is the last refuge of the intellectually bankrupt.
Akheloios is making the mistake that Guido made over Old Holborn's walk: stop and search is not the same as being arrested. Duh.
"Mr. Preston in his affidavit and Lord Rawlinson in argument have stressed that the publication of the content of this document has given potential enemies of this country no information which will be of any assistance to them. So be it. That is not the case which the Crown is making. The Crown case is that it has in its employment a servant or servants who have access to classified information and who are prepared, for reasons which seem good to them, to betray the trust which is reposed in them. Whether or not any harm has been done on this occasion, the next may be different. It is no answer to this threat that the editor of "The Guardian" is a patriotic and responsible citizen. The responsibility for deciding what information shall be treated as classified and what shall be released into the public domain is not his or that of an individual civil servant applying his own criteria. It is that of ministers who are answerable to the nation through Parliament. The maintenance of national security requires that untrustworthy servants in a position to mishandle highly classified documents passing from the Secretary of State for Defence to other ministers shall be identified at the earliest possible moment and removed from their positions. This is blindingly obvious and would not become any less obvious at any trial."
(per Donaldson MR, SoS for Defence v Guardian Newspapers [1984] Ch. 156)
I would imagine you were picked up by predictive cameras :o)
As for having your DNA taken & stored!
The EU don’t seem to like that idea :o)
DNA database breaches human rights, European court rules
Numpty Labour sat on the wall,
Numpty Labour had a big fall,
None of their spinners or media men,
Could put Old Numpty together again.
Bless.......
Jimmy,
In your post, you quote a Judge talking about 'highly classified' documents.
Surely you don't consider a document relating to the employment of an illegal immigrant to be so classified.
It wouldn't even reach 'Confidential' but is or was (I feel sure)'Restricted'if that....and that classification merely means you don't show it to the charlady..and nothing more. Although with this shower of numpties it might have been 'UK Eyes only'.
Does the phrase "Police State" upset Tom Harris?
Police State! Police State! Police State! Police State! Police State! Police State! Police State! Police State! Police State! Police State! Police State! Police State! Police State! Police State! Police State! Police State! Police State! Police State! Police State! Police State! Police State! Police State! Police State! Police State!
Cato,
You have plainly misunderstood the point being made. You may wish to read the passage again.
>>per Donaldson MR<<
All very interesting, Jimmy.
But what were the facts of that case ?
What was the law in question ? (I'm willing to bet it wasn't "conspiring to commit misconduct in a public office".)
Wasn't there a dissent from Scarman ?
She is trying to justify why she allegedly launched the investigation!
Bring back John Reid :-)
The Labour talent pool is pretty shallow these days.
The statement of Lord West today in the Lords had some important news in it. He referred to a conversation he had with Black Rod about what Black Rod would do if something similar were to happen in the Lords. From Hansard: "I have spoken to Black Rod and he has told me that, if the police arrived here, he would stop them on the boundaries of this place. He would then talk to the Lord Speaker, the Clerk of Parliaments and perhaps the Leader of the House, and take advice before allowing anything to happen. That is what would happen in this House; it is not appropriate for us to tell the other place what it should say."
If the Sergeant at Arms had the same attitude, the Commons wouldn't be in the mess they are right now.
T England 7:27 PM
The ECHR has nothing to do with the European Union, it is a court set up under the aegis of the 'Council of Europe' a totally different organisation.
The Council of Europe founded in 1949 (before the EU), has 47 member countries
I am thinking of voting Tory at the next election - I am expecting my food ration to be cut next week.
Perhaps we can legislate in case West Ham win the Premiership...?
No, what am I saying. That could never happen.
Seriously though, this does raise the point of legislating for possible crimes as this Government tried to do over 42 days. We are now entering the realms of science fiction but, as always, truth is always with this Government, truth is stranger than fiction.
"Man in a Shed said...
The Labour talent pool is pretty shallow these days."
The gene pool of Labour voters is even shallower.
Sad to report that at my partner's place of work (full of working class leftish people) the general view is that the police wouldn't have arrested Damian "if he hadn't done something wrong". They are convinced the full story of his crimes and misdemeanors is about to be revealed. They weren't saying that a few days ago. Looks like Mandy's smears are sticking. In some quarters at least.
Anoneumouse!
Fair point! But I will still look at it that, there is this body with the power to over ride our own British courts & is called the European court of human rights, that’s enough to tell me it’s something to do with the EU!
I have to wonder who else would put up with being told how to live their lives by people who are apparently nothing to do with the name they represent!
Iain: Welcome to the world of incapacitation theory, it is alive and well in our so-called liberal democracy.
The Parole Board, in effect, looks into their crystal ball, and refuses to release the prisoner. This is not on the basis of the offence for which he went to jail in the first place, rather it is based upon what the Thought Police think he may do in the future. He is deemed to be guilty of Thought Crime.
I too like to use analogy to describe my thinking. And, was aware of what you were referring to as soon as I saw the title of your post. Whilst it may not have been Jacqui Smith's finest moment, I think your analogy is not a fair reflection on this whole case.
There are people who are getting locked up for indefinite periods, not because they have committed any offence, but purely because they have been deemed to be dangerous. And it is done using the rather hazy concept of "Public Protection".
Whilst, I hold the view that we do live in a police state and not a democracy, this view was not formed by the piddling arrest of Damian Green.
Suit you Sir? He is not wearing a suit of Green. Rather, he has been exposed as being in his birthday suit.
Sad to report that at my partner's place of work (full of working class leftish people) the general view is that the police wouldn't have arrested Damian "if he hadn't done something wrong".
Heh, yeah same at our place (large tech firm, educated IT geeks). General view was "he's a Tory so he's bound to have done something dodgy".
"Call me Dave" seems still to have a bit of work to do before the Tory brand is fully decontaminated. :-)
It's really starting to become clear.
1. Brown threw a phone-throwing puerile tantrum about leaks
2. Gus O'Donnell was dispatched to read the Riot Act to the permanent secretaries with the Cabinet Office's full backing (and pressure) for police and criminal action
3. Normington went along with it, being more afraid of Gus than Jacqui
4. The Cabinet Office briefed plod that it was all bloody serious and that they had the government's 100% backing of going the whole way with their investigations, wherever they may lead, and that quick results were expected
5. Plod believes the Cabinet Office and goes charging in
6 The whole thing goes tits up and Gordon and O'Donnell run away as far as possible leaving Speaker Martin, Jill Pay, Normington, Jacqui Smith and the plods to take the kicking.
Of course all the above is all strictly fictional and for the purposes of humour, satire and entertainment only and not to be regarded as in any way resembling the true process of events.
Ugh. I just had a mental image of Minority report with the wafish blonde precog chick replaced with the bloated form of Jacqui Smith!
They will already have wooden balls with all our names on.
Old Trout
"She is barking"
The new term is "Dagenham"
Three stops past Barking
You can call me a conspiracy theorist if you want, but I think that we are all being far too light-heatered about this.
This government does show fascist tendencies. They want to legislate to control because they are so inadequate. They want to retain power. Their actions are primarily designed to retain power and not to do the best for this country.
We need action not words - not anarchy but democratic force. Gordon Brown is a traitor and should be charged accordingly.
Where are your testes, HM official opposition ?
Oscar Miller @ 8:32pm: "... the general view is that the police wouldn't have arrested Damian "if he hadn't done something wrong". They are convinced the full story of his crimes and misdemeanors is about to be revealed."
This thought depresses me too. The X Factor generation will watch all this wash by without a care. HG Wells' 'Eloi' of the future.
Apart from this being similar to the plot of the film Minority Report, where people in a dark future were arrested for crimes they contemplated committing, this horror scenario of yours is not that far-fetched in Canada -- if one looks at some of the things certain people want to see done to those who express their views freely.
It would get even worse if the commie coalition that has attempted a putsch in Ottawa to overthrow the Conservative government had its druthers.
I'll play devil's advocate for a minute, and to do so I'll put on my Bill Clinton hat:
It all depends on what the meaning of the word "might" might mean.
I think in her sentence she used the term "might have". National security "might have" been breached - meaning that they're not sure, hence an investigation was called for. This is quite different from claiming that he "might" commit an offence in the future.
Sorry for splitting hairs with you on the semantics of this, but I'm sure we're in agreement that this is all just spin anyway.
I'm sure in the world of New Labour "national security" is equivocal to "an endless stream of embarrassing leaks to the government".
Just watched the BBC1 10 O Clock News. Damian who? Lead story Shanon Matthews case. Economy. Newsnight lead story the economy. Question Time first question the economy.
Damian Green story is already today's chip wrapper.
Your analogy is flawed, Iain.
Yes, what you describe would go some way to being a police state (ignoring existing stop and search powers) but for you to compare your story to the case of Mr Green requires a pretty major change.
Firstly, the shop must have had a number of series of thefts and have called in the police to find the person responsible.
Secondly, you would have already have received numerous stolen, less expensive handsets, say an old Blackberry curve, from someone at the store and given them to the friends to make yourself look like you care.
Finally, the shop may have poor stock-taking skills, and so cannot be sure whether anyone has indeed stolen a Storm.
Put all these together and it makes you a suspect.
David 8.05pm
'The statement of Lord West today in the Lords had some important news in it.'
That's Mandy safe then.
Jimmy said...
Cato,
You have plainly misunderstood the point being made. You may wish to read the passage again
Well, since I'm plainly a bear of very little brain, perhaps you'll care to elaborate so that all us bears can understand your drivel.
Cato,
I think you'll find the key sentence is this:
"Whether or not any harm has been done on this occasion, the next may be different."
Blogger jailhouselawyer said...
Just watched the BBC1 10 O Clock News. Damian who? Lead story Shanon Matthews case. Economy. Newsnight lead story the economy. Question Time first question the economy.
Damian Green story is already today's chip wrapper.
..........................
Maybe you should have stayed up later and watched 'This Week'?
l don't often agree with the historian Dr David Starkey but he hit home tonight.
MP's allegiance to parties above the supposedly very core of democracy ... the HOC.
Not forgetting Jill Pay's job described as nothing more than a janitor. (Not Jill's fault may l add)
Spartan - I watched This Week too - Starkey is the best guest they've ever had on that show. When he called NuLab neo-fascists I spat out my Blue Nun and cheered. Don't think he'll be back on the BBC anytime soon.
Jimmy
Your quote gives a strong case for disciplinary action against Galley, even sacking him. However it bears no relevance at all to any case for arresting Galley, let alone Green.
Did you really think we wouldn't notice that? I can't believe you are too stupid to have noticed yourself, but can only assume you are one of those tiresome, self-righteous creatures that will attack the Conservatives no matter what.
Spartan: I watched Question Time and the Galley/Green question, the programme was very good. Then I watched Brillo, you can tell why he is called that because the show was brilliant. Abbot and Portaloo, a pair of comedians. Starkey I enjoyed. Brillo did get the strands of his wig twisted a couple of times, but even he shone like a rubbed pan bottom.
I intend to do a post analysis tomorrow. Too stoned right now.
P.S. You are making exactly the mistake Iain is talking about. You are suggesting that Damian Green should have been arrested for being in a position where he might, in future, commit a crime. Which would allow the police to arrest any or every one of us at any time!
If that isn't a police state then I don't know what is.
"jailhouselawyer said...
Just watched the BBC1 10 O Clock News. Damian who? Lead story Shanon Matthews case. Economy. Newsnight lead story the economy. Question Time first question the economy.
Damian Green story is already today's chip wrapper."
Yup, nothing to see here. Move on folks. Don't worry about the Constitution or integrity of Parliament, it's not on the front page.
Idiot!
You just couldn't make it up. The more that emerges into the real world, the more incredible it becomes.
The government are embarrassed by a series of leaks over Home Office imcompetence and cover-ups. Gordon McCavity McBroon throws a Nokia at Jacqui Spliff, and his chief of staff at the Cabinet Office and the head honcho at the Home Office decide that they are too fucking incompetent to find the leaker themselves and call in Knacker of the Yard. Now, some might say alarm bells should have started ringing at this point. After all, the Met is riven with it's own soap opera of incompetence and cover-up, with the political lightweight Sir (what a joke that is) Ian Bliar forced out by Boris and the infighting to be appointed next Commissar just about drowning out the stench of sundry aggrieved ethnic officers going tribunal mainly with a corrupt solicitor who has a criminal record of his very own and a law qualification bought mail-order from a Post Office Box in Hawaii.
However, Knacker of the Yard delegates this juicy investigation to Special Branch, now called the Anti Terroist Command. Nice macho title, that. And they don't have too much difficulty finding the culprit, after all, he stood as a conservative for election to some council or other, kind of points him out as a likely prospect. Then, after a nice long delay, and sundry touching base with the Serjeant at Arms and the Speaker's Orifice, but carefully not informing the Home Secretary who has responsibility for police matters in the UK, Knacker unleashes 22 or so anti terrorist police to raid 4 locations and arrest a Privy Councillor, Shadow Spokesman on Immigration, Damien Green. He is held for 7 hours before being interviewed, when it is suggested to him that he has been "grooming" the civil servant, a nice use of language I don't think. Then after 9 hours he is released without charge.
Protestations by Jacqui and by spokesweasels for McBroon about not being informed look extremely fishy and stink like rotting prawns considering that Knacker told Cameron and Boris. But no surprise there.
The Speaker's Orifice tells enquirers that a procedure was followed, but this glosses over the worse abuse of Parliament's independence from the executive and authority to call the executive to account since Charles 1st tried to arrest some irriating MPs. Spliff and McBroon seem
oblivious to this. However, seeing a chance to do Spliff down and raise her own standing with Labour MP's in the hope that the blokes in the white coats will soon be along to take McBroon into "protective custody", Harriet Harpyperson tells of her concern.
Whilst setting up a private Labour Only meeting with the Speaker's rep and the SaA to sort out an alibi. Only being truly inept, they send the e-mail to the conservatives as well.
In the meantime, Knacker of the Yard is surprised at the shit storm that his heavy-handed plods have caused, and is desperate to cover his expensively tailored uniformed arse. So, he calls on a completely independent senior Policeman, Knacker of the Railways Plod, to bail him out and provide an excuse for getting out from under. Completely independent, of course, except they are best mates, probably masons, and shareholders and office holders in a private limited company called ACPO Ltd. So no conflict of interest there, nothing to see, move along now.
Where the fuck is Brian Rix, and will he hurry up and drop his trousers?
The Penguin
Richard,
I'm simply pointing out that the argument that an incontinent civil servant can be a national security risk despite not yet having leaked anything classified is well established and indeed first advanced by the party now whining about it. I do however tend to agree with you that there's probably not enough here to charge anyone.
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