Tuesday, October 02, 2007

UKIP Should Grow Up

UKIP seem rather sore about Nigel Farage's placing in the Top 100 Influential people on the Right list. They are even talking about suing me or the Telegraph for what I wrote, as they think it is borderline libellous. I'm almost splitting my sides at the prospect. Here's what we wrote...

48. NIGEL FARAGE MEP Leader, United Kingdom Independence Party
Charismatic and unfailingly ebullient, Farage was seen as the man to take UKIP onto the next stage. Instead, he’s presided over a Party that has leaked members, is virtually bankrupt and failed in its stated aim to attract large numbers of Tories disaffected by Cameron’s soft approach to hard core issues. If Farage was doing well, he’d be in the top thirty on this list.

Devil's Kitchen has had a right go HERE. Well, they used to have 27,000 members. They have well publicised financial troubles and have failed to attract a large number of Tories over to them.

There were many on our judging panel who thought he shouldn't have even made the Top 100, let alone the Top 50. So if I were a UKIP supporter, I think I'd quit while I was ahead and thank me for even including Farage in the list in the first place. Trouble is, they're so infantile that they can't see the bigger picture.

73 comments:

Anonymous said...

FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!

Jens Winton said...

I for one will not thank you for including Nigel on this list. You and your chums can do whatever frivilous acts that arouse amusement while inspecting your navels.

The simple fact is that the country is slowly easing into a United States of Europe and we are the only ones kicking up a fuss over it. That it upsets the fence sitters who want to be in the EU but not run by it, is plain to see. And so in the teeth of adversity, we will continue on and dismiss your Metropolitan Musings with the contempt they deserve.

Vindico said...

Ian, reading your post I am wondering who is more infantile! Now take your bucket and spade and go an sulk in the corner.

Trixy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

I can't believe anyone is dignifying this bit of a list [which was clearly done 'just for fun'] and which has the compiler at Numero Uno [surprise, surprise] by taking it this seriously..

johnny bluepiece said...

Isn't Jens a kraut's name?

Jens Winton said...

johnny bluepiece said...
Isn't Jens a kraut's name?

My first name is commonly used in Germany as well as Scandinavian countries. My last name is English, my wife is Jamaican and your crude cheap shot is wide of the mark: To be anti-EU is not the same as being anti-European, and if the EU was truly democratic then stupid comments like yours and Iain's would be irrelevant, wouldn't they?

iain dale's underpants said...

It can only be a matter of time before he publishes one of his shopping lists.

Anyway, I'm off now, as I have just failed the scratch and sniff test. And I need to prepare for tomorrow: he always gets a bit moist when Dave's around.

johnny bluepiece said...

hook, line, sinker

jean shaw said...

Interestingly on the UKIP forum site Nigel Farage's position seems to cause no significant disagreement but I do agree with the point that during Nigel's time as leadership UKIP has actually gained members , very noticeably here in the Midlands.

Ceecee said...

Why oh why can't the right stick together, instead of fighting amongst each other? It is so demoralising - let's vent our spleen at the left for attempting to destroy our sovereignty and nationhood. I'm a UKIP member and enjoy reading blogs from many centre-right groups. Come on - let's work together and crush these New Labour traitors!

Andrew K said...

What a bore, these UKIP people are nearly as sanctimonious as the Lib Dems.

Remember the old saying Iain, "the biggest drums make the most noise because they have the least inside..." Or something similar.

Votedave said...

The less said about the vote-splitting party that UKIP is, the better. Labour's majority could have been cut to 30 instead of 66 at the last election if it hadn't been for them siphoning off a few right-wing voters, mostly from the Conservatives.
I would therefore respectfully ask ceecee to join the Tories if he/she really wants the right to stick together and for New Labour to be crushed.

Laurence Boyce said...

Don’t you mean UKIP should give up? Seriously though, what is the point of UKIP? At the May local elections, they obtained even fewer seats than the Liberals. That’s the old Liberals I’m talking about, not the Liberal Democrats!

Jens Winton said...

There is a myth going around that voting for UKIP hurts the Conservatives, and by default, lets in Labour. One reason given is that a number of otherwise close Conservative defeats in the last General Election in 2005, in around 27 to 30 odd seats (the number varies from time to time) was caused by votes for UKIP.

This is simply not true.

Of the 646 seats available in the elections of 2005, UKIP contested 496. There were only 39 seats that saw UKIP having a greater vote than the difference between first and second place. That was less than 8% of the 496 seats UKIP stood in.

Of these 39 seats, only five were in UKIP’s top 39 results across the country, and four of these five kept their deposits (the fifth almost joined them). Of these 39 seats, Labour won 16, the Conservatives 13 and Lib-Dems 10. Of the 16 Labour seats, there was no net gain for them from 2001. The Conservatives had a net gain of 11 (nine of them from previously-held Labour seats and two were taken from the Lib-Dems) as well as two existing 2001 Tory seats. The Lib-Dems had a net gain of four (three taken from the Conservatives and one from Labour). They kept six 2001 seats within the party.

I trust this puts paid to the myth that a vote for UKIP is a vote for Labour. The evidence simply does not support it.

Daily Referendum said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

I again suggest you would be well advised to removed the so-called 'Fart Button'. It might fleetingly appeal to a 7-year old, but is hardly appropriate for a blog that purports to be serious. It is puerile.

Daily Referendum said...

Ceecee,

Spot on. Now I've got a proposal for you. The biggest threat to democracy in this country is Gordon brown. If you vote Tory you will be heading towards your aims. Voting for UKIP (and I can understand why) will only give Labour a better chance to sink us further into the EU.

Vote Tory now and if they try to take us further into the EU I will vote for UKIP and I think a lot of Tories will do the same.

I want to restrict or even remove any powers the EU have over this country, but I want rid of Gordon Brown even more. And that should be the right's first objective.

robert sole said...

Well I wouldn't vote UKIP as it just helps Labour.

verity said...

A very mean-spirited, spiteful post,if I may say so, and not like you, Iain.

Harriet Hamster said...

Iain you are famous today
Boris's book is nearly sold out and everyone is talking about you.

Swoon......

HH

simon said...

Iain - how did you deal with the delicate issue of where to place the editor of the Daily Telegraph? I hope you didn't disrespect him

Anonymous said...

Ian ,
If UKIP have no debts but are 'nearly bankrupt' as you put it, what does that say for the Tories and Labour wanting the taxpayers to bail them out? We know why you did this and your reasoning behind it, it is par for the course. It's rather like the bullshit currently emanating from William Hague at the moment.

Anonymous said...

Jens Winton's analysis would appear to demonstrate that there is little point in voting UKIP!

Devil's Kitchen said...

The less said about the vote-splitting party that UKIP is, the better.

I have addressed this issue before; UKIP are not vote-splitters since we do not, actually, stand for the same things as the Tories.

What happens with some of us, you see, is that we prefer to vote for the party's whose principles most closely relate to our own beliefs.

Some people go for the politics of the possible, and good luck to them. I have done that for some years and I'm rather bored by it.

As for getting Gordon Brown out... well, if there is an election this autumn, if I were the Tories, I wouldn't want to win the next election: let Brown carry on and let him take the fall for the imminent economic collapse.

If there is an election soon, the best thing for the Tories would be to reduce Brown's majority to, say, 30 seats. This would be a – just about – workable majority, it would provide a boost to Cameron and the Conservatives, and it would ensure that it is Gordo – not the Tories – who gets clobbered when the economy goes down the tubes...

DK

jilted john said...

Amazed you included them at all, Iain.


Jens, what a sanctimonious bore you are.

Having said that, i am enjoying the Dale-Winton spat.

(see, being childish is fun...)

Anonymous said...

did you know that jens winton is an anagram of 'winj tonnes' ?

Not surprising really, as he does go on a bit...although I think he might be upset at the European angle..

Maybe he could change his name to an anagram of 'Whinge Tons' ?

Jens Winton said...

jilted john said...
Amazed you included them at all, Iain.

Jens, what a sanctimonious bore you are.

Having said that, i am enjoying the Dale-Winton spat.

(see, being childish is fun...)

Indeed. After all, why let facts get in the way of a discussion when you have the fart button to amuse you. Press away!

Anonymous said...

48?? Surely you left a zero off the end?
Michael Foot had had a greater influence on the Right Wing.

Anonymous said...

Who needs the sound effects a "Fart Button" makes when we've got UKIPers on this blog, all talking crap?

Like all single-issue parties, they have no hope of getting enough seats to have any meaningful impact on our political system.

In the meantime, they will simply take a percentage of the right-wing vote and allow a few more Libdems and Trots into seats that they would not expect to win.

The sooner they implode, the better.

Jens Winton said...

Anonymous said...
did you know that jens winton is an anagram of 'winj tonnes' ?

Not surprising really, as he does go on a bit...although I think he might be upset at the European angle..

Maybe he could change his name to an anagram of 'Whinge Tons' ?

----------------------------------

Anonymous,

How about this?

Oy! Man? Nous?

No on both counts.

Big Bad Troll said...

Feed me, Jens ! Feed me !

Jens Winton said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jens Winton said...

Anonymous said...

Who needs the sound effects a "Fart Button" makes when we've got UKIPers on this blog, all talking crap?

Like all single-issue parties, they have no hope of getting enough seats to have any meaningful impact on our political system.

In the meantime, they will simply take a percentage of the right-wing vote and allow a few more Libdems and Trots into seats that they would not expect to win.

The sooner they implode, the better.

==================================

UKIP has never been a single-issue party. A major part of our appeal is wanting to withdraw from the EU but the party is more than that, and our other ideas do get poached by the Conservatives, like in the area of health (bringing back the Matron's authority) or taxation (doing away with inheritance tax (although moving the threshold to £1m is not the same as abolishing it)).

I have already debunked the myth that voting for UKIP is at the expense of any party. We stand alone on our beliefs. None of the Big Three wish for a return of full democracy to the UK because they all view EU office as their retirement plan. And while the media shamefully looks the other way or represents our research as being from another pressure group, we attract silly jibes.

Keep it coming. What doesn't kill us, makes us stronger.

tuppy glossop said...

Thank you, Sir Roderick Spode.

Twig said...

This list has got to be a wind-up (Shami Chakrabarti indeed). I don't get the joke yet, but I guess all will be revealed when we see the top 25. My guess is that Ken Livingston will be in the punchline.

fibbing dims said...

Jens Winton ignores the fact that it was the Bruges group that published the report claiming UKIP hurt Conservative election chances and UKIP who highlighted it on their main site.

So Jens its conclusion had the blessing of the UKIP Leadership....

On the Membership it dropped since 2005 by about 15k then went up a few thousand. UKIP actually lost councillors in the past year. A quarter of its MEPs have either been fired, dropped out or are suspended. And the Head of their MEPS during this debacle was N. Farage.

Anonymous said...

All credit to Jens Winton for rolling with the punches that have been thrown at him tonight.

So Jens, supposing UKIP did gain enough seats to form a government in the UK, are you saying that the party would not then split up into left, middle and right factions?

Are there any historic precedents that you can point to, as to why this wouldn't be an inevitable consequence of a single issue party gaining power?

Jens Winton said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
frankie said...

I have looked at the UKIP website.

They do not appear to have any policies, apart from withdrawing from the EU.

johnny bluepiece said...

Spode censors himself. Not very libertarian.

Jens Winton said...

Fibbing dims,

I presented you with the actual electoral results. How the Bruges groups wants to interpret it is up to them. And if it suits us to play on Conservative fears then so be it.

Question marks over our officials?

Explain how Peter Mandelson becomes EU Trade Commissioner? Or how Andrew Pelling MP is arrested on suspicion of assaulting his wife. Then what about Mark Oaten's affair with a male prostitute?

The thing is, look hard enough at all elected officials and you will find there is no UKIP monopoly on setbacks.

Jens Winton said...

Frankie,

Try looking a little harder for our other policies:

http://www.ukip.org/ukip/index.php?option=com_content&task=category§ionid=9&id=20&Itemid=40

Jens Winton said...

Anonymous said...
All credit to Jens Winton for rolling with the punches that have been thrown at him tonight.

So Jens, supposing UKIP did gain enough seats to form a government in the UK, are you saying that the party would not then split up into left, middle and right factions?

Are there any historic precedents that you can point to, as to why this wouldn't be an inevitable consequence of a single issue party gaining power?

-----------------------------------

A UKIP government would conform to collective responsibility while encouraging active debate within its own debating arena, knowing that more unites us than divides us. And as you already know by now, we have never been a single-issue party.

frankie said...

Your link leads to a page telling me that You are not authorised to view this resource.

Your policies are a secret?

wonkotsane said...

Does it really matter where Farage appears on a list compiled by a Tory for a Tory newspaper? Personally I don't care, it's a list of names written based on personal opinion.

However, UKIP isn't bankrupt and it has attracted a fair number of Tories - certainly more than UKIP has lost to the Tories! When the EU/Liebour sock-puppet, the Electoral Commission, tried to bankrupt the party recently one donor said that he would pay any fine, cover any donations that had to be refunded and cover the costs. UKIP might not be cash rich but it's also not millions of pounds in debt like the big three. Liebour can't pay wages on time and the Tories have had to sell their HQ to raise cash. The Fib Dems are getting by on Minge Campbell's pension I think.

UKIP will continue to gain support whilst the Tory Party supports the subsumation of England into a European Federation.

Andrew Hunt said...

In this case Mr Dale it is *YOU* who should grow up. You said something that is clearly incorrect and you should be big enough to 'fess up. By all means continue to rubbish UKIP whenever you like, only make sure you don't imply stuff that is clearly factually accurate as I doubt you would want to gain a reputation of talking Polly Toynbee levels of bollocks.

Jens Winton said...

Frankie,

Go to www.ukip.org
Click on UKIP beside Home in top bar.
Click on manifestos in right-hand section underneath UKIP Constitution.

Anonymous said...

Jens,

Okay - so let's accept that UKIP is not a single issue party.

But - I suspect that is how it is perceived by most prospective voters out there, people who don't spend their time reading political blogs or engaging in debates like this.

How do you overcome this obstacle?

happy days are here again said...

UKIP are dead and buried this week following a highly succssful Tory fightback which will just get better with Cameron's speech tomorrow. Sorry UKIP but you just ain't needed anymore.

That doesn't apply to the BNP however, who will no doubt continue to take increasing numbers of votes from disenchanted Labour supporters and may even cost some Labour MP's their jobs.

ukip split-us said...

Vote UKIP _ get Brown.

'Nuff said!

Anonymous said...

Who has upset Jens Winton then?

Listen to him and you would think that UKIP are a threat.

But lets look at Jens own election result when he stood in a by-election on 13th September 2007:-

Liberal Democrat ... 986 (Elected)
Labour Party Candidate ... 901
Conservative ... 536
National Front ... 95
UKIP ... 89
Green Party Candidate ... 52

Wow a massive 89 votes!

brown exposed, ainsworth humiliated said...

Oh what joy seeing the useless and ludicrous New Labour timeserver Bob Ainsworth being ripped apart by Paxman on Newsnight tonight.

The feeble Ainsworth must be furious with his master Brown for leaving him so exposed over this highly cynical spin on so-called troop withdrawals.

It was all done to try to upstage the Tories of course but Newsnight have discovered that 500 of the 1,000 supposedly being "withdrawn before Xmas" are already home or on their way, and the other 500 haven't even been sent to Iraq and are still in Germany.

Brown's cynical little stunt is blowing up in his face and could end up destroying him.

This one's got legs.

Jens Winton said...

We are under no illusions that we face a battle for hearts and minds. Our road ahead is hard, stony and lonely. But what is the alternative? A life of indifference and samey politics from a bland confectionary of the Big Three parties?

So a poster here finds hilarity at my most recent by-election results. Me? Upset? Of course I would have like to have done better. But then this was never going to be easy. Are we in an environment pre-disposed to our vision? Will the sub-prime crisis in America be remembered for a trigger of future woe in Britain? Will our credit markets gum up and cause a collapse in our housing markets and create untold misery? Recession even? Will we be able to vainly ignore EU-creep to bail out less-developed EU members in a financial crisis?

Must I point out that in 1928, Hitler won just 2.6% of the vote, yet was Chancellor five years later? That his vision remained pretty much unchanged? That the times changed instead? Is it wrong to cite such an example? Or better to see if it transfers to now and the future? Yes I got beaten by the NF on my 3.35% of the votes cast. And yes the election was won by the LibDems who trail badly nationally. But who knows what the future holds. Watch this space...

Ethelred the Unhinged said...

I am not sure it is wise of you to invoke Hitler.

Or do you wish to emulate the Nazis?

Anonymous said...

Jens:

I may not agree with all of your political views but I'm impressed by your ability to take lots of flak with good grace.

You're obviously a good egg.

In the near future, when UKIP inevitably folds, we could do with good chaps like you back in the Conservative Party - working with us rather than against us.

Deep down, all of you UKIP folks know that this is where you belong, don't you?

Anonymous said...

I'll rejoin the Tories when they have policies I believe in, and a leader worth voting for. In the meantime, I'm happy in the 'Reclaim the Tories/Anyone But Cameron' camp.

Diablo said...

Is Jens Winton the brother of Dale? I think we should be told!

Devil's Kitchen said...

In the near future, when UKIP inevitably folds, we could do with good chaps like you back in the Conservative Party - working with us rather than against us.

Deep down, all of you UKIP folks know that this is where you belong, don't you?


No, I don't belong with the Tories. I am a libertarian: I am an economic liberal but – unlike the Tories – I am also a social liberal.

I am – unlike the Tories – an EUnihilist.

My link further up lays out the differences between UKIP and the Tories and these differences are fundamental.

But the big point is that none of the Big Three are interested in making a smaller state; none of them are prepared to acknowledge that every time that politicians try to "fix" things, they inevitably stuff them up.

I am watching IDS's speech about his solutions for the "broken society"; he warns us that he will not go through all of them because "there are 192 of them".

No, get stuffed. You politicos are unable to fix anything; politics moves too slowly to react.

DK

chatterbox said...

Anyone know which bar Iain is propping up with a soft drink, and which bar is propping up Guido with the hard stuff?

verity said...

Jens Winton - Mark Oaten did not have an "affair" with a prostitute.

He engaged the services of a male prostitute, for cash, which involved a service which was perverted by anyone's judgement (except those who practice it). It wasn't an "affair". It was a series of financial transactions for a service the for which the trick was able to pay a large fee. This wasn't a discount job.

Let us stop degrading our language and eliding meaning.

verity said...

Correction: the trick didn't pay a large fee; he commanded a large fee.

tapestry said...

UKIP is a cult. cults put great effort into pointing out the wrongheadedness of outsiders in order to keep their members inside the box. it is a necessary defence so that their members don't observe the wrongheadedness in their own heads, or the heads of their own leaders.

People who believe in a cause don't need to demolish the position of others. They emphasise the rightness of their beliefs. UKIP are anti-everyone, and tear each other apart in the process.

Cameron is Britain's only chance of survival. UKIP are a dangerous waste of time - useful idiots. I should know. I used to be one of them - in 2000-2001. At that tme the best the Conservatives could offer was 'keep the Pound for one parliament'. Now we have a chance of a referendum to stop the Constitution. UKIP are pissing in the wind, Gordon Brown's mates.

Chad said...

David Cameron
Charismatic and unfailingly ebullient, Cameron was seen as the man to take the Tories onto the next stage. Instead, he’s presided over a Party that has leaked members, is kept afloat by dodgy loans and has failed in its stated aim to attract large numbers of LibDems disaffected by Ming’s soft approach to hard core issues.

And all true. But that said, UKIP has gone sideways in the past year, but having one party standing up against the single-state potential that the extension to state funding will assist is a good thing isn't it?

Digger said...

I think it's funny the way the tories squeal when they can' get their snouts in the trough.

UKIP exist because there's a market for them.End of argument.

U kip if you want to said...

Yeah there's a market for UKIP and it's about 1.5% of the electorate if they're lucky.

They only started to talk about other policies because they're falling on their faces making any inroads in elections. Since then they can't even put up candidates where they want them and pretend winning unopposed seats on parish councils are progress.

UKIP's had its day. It might get the odd success at the European elections but who's going to vote for them now when their MEPs either embezzle funds, quit or vote for EU proposals?

It's only the swivel eyed loons, the foul mouthed attention seekers and the deluded who bother with UKIP now. I can't understand how a party with so little pull gets so much coverage. Forget about them and stick to getting rid of Brown.

Helen said...

UKIP's imminent collapse has been predicted for many years. Hasn't happened yet.

However, the main point is the one Devil's Kitchen was making in personal terms when he explained why he did not support the Conservatives. You can widen that: people vote UKIP or some other party or not vote at all because they do not want to vote for the Conservatives. It's as simple as that. And they do not want to vote Conservative because they do not like what the Conservative Party is saying or not saying. If that results in the Conservative losing another election, so be it. The problem lies with the Conservatives. The idea that nobody must try to benefit from their own silliness is preposterous.

Anonymous said...

Speaking of party funding, when the Tories get back in, could they pass a law that makes the management of the Liebour party personally liable for its £20 million debts? I want to see that evil thieving maggot Brown personally ruined financially, like he has ruined my parents, the evil snot-eating subhuman piece of scum.

tapestry said...

The Useful Kind of Idiot Party.

Helen, UKIP started off as a party dedicated to getting the UK out of Europe - by winning power at Westminster.

It has given up on its original objective, now backing a subsidiarity programme by allying with a pro-EU group in the European Parliament, and by acting as Conservative policy pressure group.

It's a waste of time. If you want to change the Conservatives, you will achieve that by campaigning from within the party, not from without.

The only person who will gain from every UKIP vote will be Gordon Brown and his attempt to ram Britain into the Constitution without a referendum. The Useful Kind of Idiot Party should be ashamed of itself.

Anonymous said...

If only the Conservative Party would acknowledge that our government is now the EU, and that that situation must end, UKIP would fold immediately. However, there is absolutely no sign of that happening.

Helen said...

Yes, Tapestry, I am aware of UKIP's history, possibly more so than you are. But that does not answer my point, which is very simple for most people: those who do not vote for the Tories do not do so because they do not like what the Tories are offering. Nothing to do with anyone else. In other words, stop whining about how you are being betrayed by the voters who dare to go agasinst you and have a little look as to what it is that they do not like. Is that too difficult?

Elaib said...

Oh Iain, thank you everso much for your great generosity including Mr Farage on your definitive list. I spoke to the fellow about it and he was so flattered by your attention. Gosh, sucks.

And you talk about growing up.

The whole list was vaguely tongue in cheek as all these lists seem to be. As such it should treated with the same approach as it was drafted, as a bit of fun.

That being said, UKIP are financially secure - though not as richj as they would like, they are picking up dissafected members at all levels from the Tories (and others) on a daily basis - though not as quickly as they would like and will be launching a whole range of policies this weekend.

Your contempt is as misplaced as any suggestion of libel.

Anonymous said...

The reason I will vote UKIP is to:
1: End rule by Brussels
2: End the two party state(some say single party state!)

The Tories took us into the EU and Labour are signing off on it.