Comment may be Free, but do we really have to put up with THIS rubbish?This is what Faisal Bodi writes: Just for the record, a red cross won't be flapping out of my car during the World Cup. And that's not only because the damned thing is too closely associated with the far right. The cross, and the three lions for that matter, are Christian symbols, adopted by the crusaders for a historical episode that not only brought immense suffering to Muslims and eastern Christians alike, but which created the jaundiced lens through which much of the west would view Islam down the centuries. I'm not saying I'll be cheering for Iran or Saudi Arabia. I will be shouting for England. But like many British Muslims it'll be without any of the paraphernalia that brings shame to my country.
Read that last phrase again: "paraphernalia that brings shame to my country". What an absolutely ridiculous thing to say. Does the same apply to the Union Flag? What symbol of our country would Mr Bodi like to replace it with, I wonder?
I have never heard of Mr Bodi, but I am told he is a "leading commentator" on Muslim affairs. He is also news editor for Al Jazeera. Well he certainly isn't representative of any Muslim I've ever met.
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39 comments:
The Cross of St George is the flag of England - I hardly find that offensive. And the three lions offensive - oh come on!!
It would be like saying all UK residents find the stars and stripes awful as those American upstarts had the audacity to defeat us in their war of independence.
And this is a primarily Christian country whethere anyone likes it or not
Mr. Bodi is quite a character to say the least, and infamous for remarks of the kind you have lamented.
You will find that in the near future, the likes of Mr. Bodi will become your debating partners in politics as demographics of England are rapidly changing.
Take a look at
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/
Robert Spencer is quite pessimistic about the UK an Europe's future, but he is knowledgable and eloquent.
Bodi is a full time Mau-Mauer, to adapt Tom Wolfe. I wonder if he feels as strongly about his co-religionists using the star and crescent emblem? And the slaughter enacted across Europe, Asia and Africa performed under its shade? Well, actually I don't, as I know what his position is already.
And watch out, or our friend Cranmer might send Al-Amin your way.
Robert Spencer is indeed eloquent and a must-read.
This Faisel Bodi is an angry individual who wants to upset the host society which is superior in every way to the society his parents/grandparents ditched.
The cross of St George has been our national flag for over a thousand years. It is part of the greatness of our island nation. It is not up to newcomers to comment.
Just in case Faisal doesn't know - and he appears not to - the BNP is a radical far left organisation (he seems to think they are far right).
Faisal, old boy, the BNP are as far left as you can go without falling off the map (edge of the world; here be dragons; oooh err; cue St George).
- Anonymousette
Hmmmm so i bet he would like a "new design" for the flag of England!, let me guess, something along the lines of a "white crescent on a green background" perhaps?.
If you dont like England then leave!, simple as that, if any immigrant into this country, or any person born here, be they black, white or green with pink spots then if they dont put this country first then their very presence is counter productive and makes the country a worse place.
Any whacko left/libbie type can get their crap in print.
Censorship for their hatreds just doesn't seem to exist.
Just why the heck anyone buys the rag mystifies me. Although of course, their circulation is strangely low...
I agree with Bodi and it has nothing to do with what is offensive.
Bodi's comments might be "rubbish" to Mr Dale, but to many, those flags flying from cars are "rubbish" and rather tacky. And where are they made? In China!
It's just a feeding frenzy of over-priced pointless merchandise in an over-commercialised sport, with over-payed sportsmen who are idolised as heroes, while the real heroes who give their lives to others are forgotten.
Sorry, but we don't all need to wave identical flags around in unison, to support a football team.
Isn't it time that once in a while we flew a flag to celebrate Planet Earth and life and all of mankind, a flag to show we are all one, wherever we are and whoever we are, a flag that shows there is more that we all have in common than separates us, regardless of creed or colour or religion or football?
The Crusades began as an attempt to defend the Christian Holy Land from the Muslim invader. Should Christians be offended if Muslims attempted to defend Mecca from some future invasion?
Super - let's fly the flag and flush out the misanthropes.
Frankly I find the crescent on a green background reminiscent of a scimitar used to behead the innocent. I cannot get out of my head the image of bloodcurling murder and pillage throughout the centuries as cities fell to the marauding bandit hordes from the Arabian Peninsula.
I do find it peculiar how the simplicity of a red cross on a white sheet can stir anything but the most positive emotions...........no doubt St Andrew smiles from his saltire
Nobody mention Islam's aggressive military expansionism between the 7th and 17th Centuries AD...
Mr Bodi should watch his tongue less some one takes it away from him, if this mouthy fool doesn't like our Flag or the three lions then no body is stoping him from buggering off back to the middle east or where ever he comes from.
As for the crusades there was killing and bloodshed on both sides, and crusades began because of fear of islamic expansionism westwards, i.e. islam kickt it all off with their idear of bringing the whole world under islamic domination, does that ring any bells with today, besides half if not most of what is now Palastine was Christan when islam started moving West, for instance lets take the attempted islamic conquest of Spain, what was that if not agreasion to none Muslams.
England is a Christian Country whether the people of islam like it or not, and it will stay a Christian Country no matter what their mouth peaces say about black flags flying over Whitehall, i doubt it very much.
Athelstan
I was almost tempted to register as a commenter on the "comment is free" site in order to give Mr Bodi a blast from both barrels, but then thought, why let the Graun think I actually appreciate their drivel and let them claim me as boosting their readership numbers.
Mr Bodi is obviously a Muslim. So what does he say about the depiction of the sword of Islamic conquest on the flag of Saudi Arabia? And what about the other assorted symbols of a religion that bedeck the flags of other Muslim nations? A religion that, in its early years, was characterised by bloody conquest of Christian, Hindu and pagan lands.
Perhaps Mr Bodi should grow up and remember it's how people behave today that matters, not how they did a thousand years ago.
Comments like Mr Bodi's are more likely to increase racial and cultural tension than any footie supporter waving a flag. Though I suspect that that may be his real agenda. Without greivances and tension Mr Bodi and the other bleeding heart whiners would have to go and get real jobs instead of sponging off the publics' guilt over historical wrongs. A guilt falsely created by the spongers themselves, I might add.
RM
PS Can anyone tell me where the lions appear in Christian symbology? I admit I spent my weekly hour of RE perving at Miss Simpson's legs and thinking decidedly unGodly thoughts, but I think I'd remember three lions suddenly pitching up during the Sermon on the Mount or the Last Supper.
There was a lion in the story of Samson, but it was dead and he was Jewish, so I guess that doesn't really help Mr Bodi's argument. Unless his knowledge of religion is as bad as mine, of course.
RM
Seen on 'Drinking from Home' blog re the same story:
This comment by 'SpeakerToAnimals1' in response to Mr Bodi:
Fair enough - don't fly the flag.
Each to his own.
I won't be strapping a bomb to myself.
The British flag belongs to the far right, not the English one. Go to Scotland or Wales and the BNPers fly the British flag alongside the flags of those countries. How come no one ever mentions that? How come it's never been an issue before the Scottish Raj took over? This has nothing to do with our flag and everything to do with our current rulers. More proof that it's "fashionable to hate the English." Well I'm sick to death of it and so is everyone else I know.
The flag of England is for life, not just the football season and I'll be damned if Mr Bodi or even the Scottish Raj will stop me flying mine.
I am rooting for England to win, because the further they get, the more flags we'll see. Won't that be fun, watching the ruling elite fall over themselves to pretend they like us?
I'd like it if we returned to the old Anglo-Saxon dragon because the cross is a foreign symbol & not English. Indeed St George was about as English as Roque Santa Cruz.
But to suggest that it is offensive is just plain ridiculous.
PS Can anyone tell me where the lions appear in Christian symbology?
Certainly, Mr RM. Happy to help.
You correctly observe that the lion has a number of mentions in the Old Testament, but the important one (for Christians) is given in Gen 49:9, where Judah is referred to as a lion cub. It was the line of Judah that gave birth to the Messiah. The theme is picked up in the book of Revelation, in which Jesus is portrayed as 'the Lion of the tribe of Judah'.
Hope this helps.
Mr Croydonian,
Mr Al-Amin must be away training in Pakistan (again). Either that, or he simply only visits my esteemed and learned blog when I post about Islam.
Its funny this should come up at this time. I've just been reading a book called 'The Force of Reason' by Oriana Fallaci, a brilliant piece of work on how pushy Muslim 'experts' like Mr Bodi are trying to force their culture upon us while our cack-handed politicans can't do anything about it for fear of being branded racist. Its a really eye-opening read and i recommend it to anyone.
England is a mostly free country, Mr Faisal Bodi can do as he wishes and speak as he wishes (with some exceptions introduced by the current secular government). I would go further and say it is vital to my freedom that he is allowed to.
I think he's being a bit precious though. You can find offence in almost anything if you want to.
Christians in Islamic country's are oppressed to a far higher degree. Try putting up a cross or church in Saudi Arabia..... In Somalia or Afghanistan you'll be lucky to escape with your life as a Christian convert.
Thanks Cranmer,
But one small aside; didn't Haile Salase adopt the title Lion of Judah? Perhaps Mr Bodi should direct his ire towards the supporters of the Jamaica team instead (Diane Abbott, take note).
Anon, wasn't Oriana Fallaci that hottie Italian lawyer who tried to stop the extradtion of the 21/7 would be bus bomber who did a runner to Italy?
Shed Man, No one's saying Mr Bodi has no right to say what he thinks. Simply that if he does and it's a pile of poo he should expect huge amounts of ridicule to be directed at him. The right to free expression - it's not just for stupid gits.
RM
RM, Haile Selassie was termed 'King of Kings, lord of lords, Conquering Lion of the Tribe of Judah' inter alia.
Orianna Falacci is a tad old to be judged a hottie, but does write rather splendid (if a little excitable) books on the Islamic threat.
{paraphernalia that brings shame to my country.}
Like the Guardian.
Mr RM,
I am loath to continue an intelligent discourse with you on this blog because Mr Dale does not approve - he asserts I 'think too much'. However, your correct reference to Haile Salassie's chosen nomenclature is contingent on Ethiopia's perception of its own role in Old Testament history. It believes (accurately) that the Queen of Sheba was from that country and therefore its history is wound up through Solomon in that of Israel and Judah, and also believes (more dubiously) that the Ark of the Covenant resides within its borders. Its monarchs therefore would ascribe to themselves Judeo-Christian symbolism, no matter how blasphemous such self-aggrandisement may appear to Western Christians.
Sorry, Mr Dale. You may continue talking about football and Mr Rickit now.
Croydonian,
OK, just done a google search on Ms Fallaci and she's not the hottie lawyer I was thinking about.
But looking at her pictures she ain't too bad looking either (unless they are very old photos). One shouldn't write off ladies over thirty you know.
My favourite time to go shopping is on Sundays at about half past ten. Down here that's when the families leave church and pop down the supermarket to get the stuff for Sunday lunch: lots of mommies and aunties in their Sunday best....mmmmmm!
RM
RM, agreed, but Orianna is now in her mid 70s.
anonymous wrote: Q: "Should Christians be offended if Muslims attempted to defend Mecca from some future invasion?"
A: Not at all, although there is little one can do to defend a black meteorite against nukes. But I certainly don't think we should be offended at them for trying, the poor dears.
Rick said: "I cannot get out of my head the image of bloodcurling murder and pillage throughout the centuries as cities fell to the marauding bandit hordes from the Arabian Peninsula."
And let us not forget, the barbaric treatment of human beings by Muslims continues today, with slave trading. Yes, slavers are alive and busy, kidnapping their fellow human beings and selling them into servitude in faraway countries. And forced marriage and girls sold into marriage. And female genital mutilation. And tracts by imams on how to beat your wife without leaving a mark.
Mr Bodi and his tribe are s-o-o-o Dark Ages. So yesterday, Faisal. Surely in 800 years, you could have cleaned up your act? You're still beheading people, still hanging homosexuals, still stoning women to death for having had the temerity to be raped. Surely you could have inched forward at least a tiny bit during the last 800 years?
anonymous trilled: "Isn't it time that once in a while we flew a flag to celebrate Planet Earth and life and all of mankind, a flag to show we are all one, wherever we are and whoever we are?"
No.
Tyke said: "The British flag belongs to the far right." Could you expand on that, please, as there aren't any far right parties in Britain - or anywhere in Europe as far as I know? The BNP, as I am sure you are educated enough to know, is a party of the very far left. As was Hitler's party. Look it up.
- Anonymousette
Here we have the next muslim leader (MCB), a Mr. Bari, this time with some advice for us all to check on arranged marriages. He also is saying that muslims should not pick up too many british ways. Check the man out, he is the very embodiment of all that the word 'brazen' conveys:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=KJAAS2WLPEKCFQFIQMGCFF4AVCBQUIV0?xml=/news/2006/06/10/nterr110.xml
I so wish the Tory party would take a stand on these people instead of leaving this to the blogosphere and the pubtable.
The islamic chapter of the BNP (aka MCB) really is crying out for a serious buttonholing, before they drive everyone crazy. I don't even know what possesses the mainstream media to promote those trolls as 'moderates'.
No-one in their right mind who is a democrat and a modern person is going to to agree that British society should islamicise as Bodi and Bari espouse -- and even they won't believe that themselves. So, one wonders what the motivation for those obvious and continuous trolling attempt is? Why do they try and play the Islamic bogeyman to the nation?
It truly is a strange way of PR, no? It doesn't buy them anything other than public hostility and suspicion of muslims. Hmmm.
England as a nation state did not exist until the reign of Edward I (1272), all previous kings having been Norman or Anglo-Norman.
The earliest reference to the cross of St George as an English emblem (not flag) was in a roll of account relating to the Welsh War of 1277.
Although the banner of St George was flown when the castle of Caerlaverock was taken in 1300, it was in company with those of St Edward and St Edmund.
Edward the Confessor was "patron saint" of England until 1348 when the greater importance of St George was promoted by the establishment of the Chapel of St George at Windsor. It was not until 1415 that the festival of St George was raised to the position of a "double major feast" and ordered to be observed throughout the Province of the Archbishop of Canterbury with as much solemnity as Christmas Day.
St George's cross did not achieve any sort of status as the national flag until the 16th century, when all other saints' banners were abandoned during the Reformation. The earliest record of St George's flag at sea, as an English flag in conjunction with royal banners but no other saintly flags, was 1545. Wiki
As for lupars or lions - read
http://fotw.vexillum.com/flags/gb-eng.html
That this redesign of the seal came after Richard's crusading escapades may be significant. (Richard's shield during the crusades is conjectured to have been red with two gold lions, like his father's. All artistic portrayals of Richard with three lions are derived from the royal seal at the end of his reign, but there is no solid evidence of Richard's lions prior to the second royal seal.) The lions remained thereafter a symbol of England (soon quartered with the French fleur de lis, 1340-1801, to represent England's claim to the French throne).
Mr Bodi you should really watch what you say. If the English want to fly their flag then they will and will not be surpressed by foreigners. It's our flag, it's the flag of England. A national flag and despite your comments, England has a majority population who are Christian. I don't see people in the middle east quarreling over their flag because it has religious symbols on it. So leave England alone.
Mr Bari's barnet looks like a wig and not a very good one.
http://www.westernresistance.com/blog/archives/002277.html Is such vanity OK, in Islam? Wigs OK?
This seems to be his publicity picture of choice, so he must like it. God, what a twisted, nasty face. Worse than "Sir" Iqbal Sacranie even. That wig is godawful.
- Anonymousette
Croydonian,
Then either she needs to update her google pictures (the ones there are 30 to 40 years old), or there is a younger Orianna who also gets found by Google.
RM
The Aussies showed the way many years ago when they ridiculed "whingeing poms." Their attitude was: if you don't like it here, fuck off.
Just try to imagine the "Christian Community" in Islamabad deciding to take to the streets to protest at some real or imagined slight. Would any survive the experience?
Sorry, but we give these muslim hypocrites an easy ride. Look at the lead story in The Guardian today. The Met Police has completed a study which tells them that Pakistani officers are vastly more prone to corruption than white officers. What do you get from muslim groups? We must clean up our act? No. The report is racist of course.
I could go on at length on this subject, but one tiny ray of light may emerge this week to counteract racist cant. The BBC, of all people are broadcasting a programme on Radio 4 on Monday at 11 am (I think)which actually confirms that Pakistanis (make that all Asians)cannot bear the thought that one of their girls could be seen with a black man. At least we wicked whites have got over that hurdle.
To me the cross of St George means fat bald men with tattoos wearing illfitting t-shirts and holding racist political opinions.
I'll not be showing it. I can't see the point of it
wheatley - what a pity your education was so impoverished. Try reading an illustrated history book.
- Anonymousette
Our history is nothing to do with flags. Or if it is, then its not much of a history, and we will be getting like the Serbs and fretting over battles that were lost in the 14th Century .
If I was doing one of those psycho tests that says "what comes into your mind when you see...." then our flag = football hooligans.
The Union Flag does not have quite the same associations. But then I can't see the point of seperate teams for each component of the UK either.
It has struck me lately that the english are pretty poor at running anything, but crucially they are the least unwelcoming of the european countries, so that people of talent stay here and run stuff for us - heugenots, dutch, jews, indians, now poles (to name but a few). This is particularly true of people in Southern England, for whom northerners and scots could be added to the list above.
Yours "Wheatley" (BA Hons History)
Oh dear, Wheatley is suffering from advanced Anglophobia methinks.
:-D
I blame Seumas Milne - he's the Grauniad's comment editor, and (one or two centrist signings like Max Hastings aside) takes great delight in having turned the Guardian comment section (and its blog Comment is Free) into a zoo for far-left dictator apologists(Neil Clark and John Laughland) and the Islamic far right.
If the Daily Telegraph's comment section was edited by a BNP member there'd be outrage, but scarely a murmur is raised about the Guardian's comment section being edited by the member of a party, the SWP, which wants a workers' dictatorship (and I wonder what a Trotskyist party has to say about the brutal suppression of the 1921 Kronstadt uprising?)
As for the Comment Is Free blog, anyone in any doubt that the left contains as many cranks, conspiracy theorists, supercilious misanthropes and general out-and-out w*nkers as the right (I say this as a centre-left libertarian) need only check out said blog. It's like the paper's letters page, only fifty times worse.
Oriana Fallaci is a brilliant journalist, and being Northern Italian, very left wing. She is bold and beautiful(and 70)and lives in New York, partly because that is her home and partly because she faces prosecution in Europe for her book. Her great sin? Telling some home truths about Islamist terrorists (and I must call them Islamist because that is what they are)and how we have been sold down the river by successive governments (all over Europe)into appeasing terrorists because we are so afraid of offending anybody. She is eloquent and unapologetic and she tells a brilliant story about an immigrant community who took over the main piazza in Florence, setting up tents and basically squatting, in order to protest being deported. The tents were squalid, unsanitary and filthy after weeks of protest. The Italian authorities refused to do anything about, so afraid they were of 'offending' anybody. Mind you they didn't mind offending the other citizens of Florence. Ms. Fallaci, understandably exercised by the this told the police if they didn't do something about it, she would set fire to them herself. The polce finally moved them on but the Italian Government caved in and granted them amnesty.
I know it is deeply unfashionable to rate Melanie Phillips but 'Londanistan' is a very good read. She like the rest of us, is appalled at the appeasement, which just drives certain folk into the waiting arms of the BNP. Mind you, I had some very dirty looks from the sandle-wearing set on the train home as I read it. Too bad I didn't have a flag in my lapel!
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