Wednesday, October 10, 2007
Wednesday Open Thread
As I'm probably not going to able to blog much today, here's an Open Thread for you to discuss political developments during the day, most notably Prime Minister's Questions. What do you expect David Cameron to go on and how should Gordon Brown react? And afterwards you can vent your spleens about their performances. Or you can talk about something entirely different. Up to you.
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164 comments:
they are claims on another blog that Osbournes figures on non-doms where taken from an anonymous source inside some accounting magazine of an accounting association, not 'verified' by the association itself, almost certainly going to go on that.
Do i get a prize of i get it right??
Gaz
anon , noone cares if you can`t find £3 billion of waste out £650 billion you had better not play hide and seek. The more inetresting question remains , where did Darling get his figures from
Alistair Darling, he if the eyebrows that waggle like mating catepillars, confidently asserts that there is nothing like the £3.5 billion claimed by Osborne for the IHT revolution. £650 million he knows, as a fact , is all the Piggy bank contains .
How does he know ? Nicholas McPherson , the permanent secretary, has been refusing access to the estimates he has of this windfall for months, on the basis that it would deny the government the, “ Opportunity to present its polices in a coherent fashion” and that it would “weaken the governments decision making “... . This may strike some of you as like denying a fish its right to Pole Vault but that , oh best beloved , was the story..
This noble posture was abandoned within minutes when the government ordered him to spit it out so they could use figures against the Conservatives in time for the Evening news. As we see , this is the new politics in which the politicisation of civil servants will not continue ..... grrrrrrrr.
Intellectual theft and the redundancy of government ideas, as well as this EU Treaty thing, just for starters!
I hope that Cameron has had a good night's sleep. One good victory at PMQ and he will have established complete psychological dominance over Brown.
This is my first venture into the world of blogs and so I apologise if this is trite or has been said before.
It appears to me, however, that the arrogance and self-love for which Brown is famed is completely overstated. He blusters and bullies and foams because he has little self esteem. The world is littered with people who put on a brave front but whom quake within. Brown is proud of his intelligence but his glowering and nail biting betrays little self belief.
His hundred days went well and so one could see him beginning to acquire some pride in his own achievements as he swelled and adopted the statesmanlike pose. When things went wrong, however, he reverted to type and a good performance for Cameron, today, would see this become a self perpetuating dynamic. The clunking fist has become a clucking fist but this point is not yet stamped onto the public consciousness. Reduce Brown's reputation for"strength" and it's all over for Labour.
Labour is a range of exhausted volcanoes and all they had was Brown the statesman. Without this, and it's pretty close to being permanently destroyed, they have absolutely nothing, with worse to come...
Good luck to Cameron. At his best he makes Brown look mediocre, clumsy and boorish. He needs to put on a good show today.
The government don't know how many asylum seekers are in the country. Or illegal immigrants. Or foreign workers. So the liklihood that they know how many non doms there are is minimal.
On the radio this morning Darling confessed that he doesn't understand Osborne's figures. Oh dear. That means Gordon has chosen as Chancellor someone who's a bit thick where numbers are concerned.
Nicely put Set England Free I enjoyed your comment
The recent figure touted by Labour is of 115,000 non-doms. That figure was based on 2005, however, and so it's entirely feasible that Osbourne's figures are correct.
Given that there is another two years (at least) before the first tory budget there is plenty of time for more non doms to arrive and set up shop....
I certainly hope that anonymous isn't right. If this tory wheeze is forcibly and unarguably exposed as a sham, the progress we have made will be reversed and worse. I'm trusting that Osbourne isn't stupid but you never can tell with politicians....
On Today this morning, Osborne did not explain to Humphreys' satisfaction (or mine) why he has promised to match Labour's (mad) spending commitments, or explain how this can be paid for other than by matching Labour's tax increases.
That is one route for a Brown fight back methinks.
"if you want to copy another of our popular policies how about giving us a vote on the EU constitution?" Brown can only answer with more lies to the public....
Welcome to Blogistan SEF, hope you enjoy it down here with the pyjama clad loons :-)
As to how Dave should hit The Greasy One at PMQ's:
How about "Now that he has ruled out an election before 2009, will the PM stick to his previous manifesto commitment and allow the British people a referendum on the eu treaty?"
And when TG1 gives the predictable "not a constitution, just a housekeeping treaty, wah wah wah" non-answer hit him with the following:
"Could the Prime Minister please explain why he believes that the eu treaty is not the old constitution when [find out names of all the euro leaders who've said it] say that this treaty is somewhere between 95 and 99% the same and when this house's own committee on euro legislation [find out proper name] has delivered a report stating that the new treaty is fundamentally the same as the old constitution?"
Alternatively he could use his half hour to lead Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition in prolonged chanting of "Scaredy cat, scaredy cat. Nyaaagh nyaaagh, scaredy cat," (with appropriate infantile face pulling and rude jestures) until Gordo bursts into tears and runs away.
Both could be entertaining in their own way.
I don't think it's inconsistent, anonymous, to pledge to follow Labour spending plans - when first elected to office - whilst criticising the direction which these are taking.
He will have to face the situation as he then finds it; taking time and care to reverse the damage to our competitiveness without risking stability.
Thanks for the welcome newmania and remittance man!
Anonymous, it's not a constiturion, it's a Reform Treaty. The contents are 100% the same (most believe), but the vehicle is different. Furthermore, Brown has negotiated some opt-outs. It's those opt-outs that are the nub of the matter, and whether they are enforceable. Best not to speak with your fingers in your ears, my dear friends, because you might lose an eminently winnable argument. The constitution idea is dead.Stop banging on about it
As already suggested if Brown has a bad PMQs then things will become very interesting. Brown will be heavily briefed so Cameron needs to go on something unexpected.
Previously Cameron has gone hard on one or a maximum of two issues. Today is a chance to mix things up a bit.
The involvement of Des Browne in the troop withdrawal decisions would be a good line to take worthy of a couple of questions.
More poking on the EU referendum is also a good idea. Brown is particularly vulnerable on this score.
Cameron ought to bring up standards in public life (e.g politicisation of civil service and misleading photo ops).
The theme of the session should be Gordon the dictator.
Indeed John T, the constitution is dead, long live the constitution!
John T
1 The red lines mean nothing whatsoever and this has been attested too by numerous qualified to say so. You are not
2 There is no difference between the two vechiles beyond a name as a treaty is essentially an amendment to an exisiting constitution.Any Federal body must delineate between powers operated at the different leves and this was a Constitution from the start. YOu say ..why a referendum then?
I say all the more need and this is the true relationship between he voter and this ongoing act of treachery. What scares brown is not the Constitution but the momentum agains the entire project across the spectrum. This momentum will inevitably and correctly undermine the broadly Euro enthusiatic labour Party who like its European Sociallist Democratic assumtions and do not care who votes for it and who does not
You are additionally incorrect that Brown negotiated anything it was Blair and Brown has fallen willingly into line with his ' byword for mendacity "predecessor".
Brown has let it be assumed he was sceptical of Europe for years as the " Soul of the Labour Party ". AS WF Deedes always reminded us . This has never been true and Blair and Brown are precisely the same animal. His endless lies and obfuscations on this issue demonstrate this with satisfying clarity.
Incidentally if you are JT from Compass should we not be sticking our fingers in our ears and ignoring you? Or is that a one way thing .....
How about a bit of History?
Prior to 2005 Labour said
1) Blair would stay for a full term (I presume he wasn't talking about his son's school)
2) IHT would not be changed (Ian Hislops Typewriter?)
3) There would be a referendum on an EU Con (make of that what you will!)
4) Brown is a serious politician who has managed the economy expertly (Sorry, I couldn't think of anything funnier than that line!)
Did anyone notice that on Desert Island Discs Alan Johnson chose Neil Young's "A man needs a maid".
Could this indicate a reappraisal of domestic service by the left?
Tories, the one issue party, ie IHT.
Shhhhh don’t mention the Grants to local authorities for local services in England that will increase to £26bn by 2010.
Shhhhh don’t mention the Investment in health in England to rise from £90bn this year to £110bn by 2010
Shhhhh don’t mention the £4bn over the next three years to help people in poor-quality housing make renovations.
Shhhhh don’t mention the extra £200m will be given for free pensioner bus travel next year, he added.
Will the Tories be matching these policies….Nope !!!!
Im so looking forward to Cambos 2008 conferance speech. Will he be doing un scripted, He has set himself a very dodgy precident
Hi Newmania (sounds catching!)
I don't know what "compass" is, I only ever go on this and UK Polling Report. And LFC's website, but I don't post there. I do hear what you say, newmania, and I at least agree about the caterpillars.
A treaty is not by definition an amendment to a constitution, and I meant Brown had negotiated "opt-outs" as part of the Blair team. Or that he negotited them with Blair. Whatever , the opt-outs are there, and the point of my post was to alert the ignorant to the fact that debate is about the meaningfulness or otherwise of the "red lines" Lots of well-qualified people are having that debate, so don't dismiss them in the same breath as you dismiss my efforts. I'm with GB (Shaw) in this "One good treaty is worth ten good fights" I prefer informed debate, not disreepectful, deaf attacks like yours
Cameron should induce Brown to ask him questions.
The feeling produced of a 'government in waiting' is very effective.
We saw this yesterday with the Shadow Chancellor, when Nick 'Spex and The City' Robinson said 'it felt like Osbourne's first budget rather than Darling's'.
Except that amongst other things Ozzy's wouldn't have shut down small business and enterprise in this country.
Anonymous at 10.33
The reason why Osbourne has to stick to Labour's spending plans (just as Brown stuck to Clarke's in 1997) is that any incoming government is bound by the Maastricht Treaty's Stability and Growth Pact.
Despite the fact that we never signed up to the Euro itself, UK politicians are obliged to submit their forward spending plans to the European Council for approval. Any incoming government has to maintain their predecessors' spending plans for the magical three years.
Osbourne is telling everyone that he'll stick to the existing plans because:
1. It's good politics as it defuses the inevitable labour scares regarding spending cuts, and
2. He has no option.
You wouldn't really expect the Tories or the BBC to want to open up that particular can of worms, particularly with the increasingly voluble calls for a referendum on the Reform Treaty?
Sceptical Steve -
Fantastic post, if what you say is true, and that's from a pro-Treaty person waiting to be persuaded otherwise. You haven't succeeded, yet, but a real debate about Europe and our part in it would be as manna from heaven. one, thing, though, Ken Clarke spent the whole of 1998 saying that he wouldn't have stuck to his own spending plans, given the changes in economic climate of the time, so the "golden chalice" was more luck than design, n'est-ce pas?
Sceptical Steve -
Fantastic post, if what you say is true, and that's from a pro-Treaty person waiting to be persuaded otherwise. You haven't succeeded, yet, but a real debate about Europe and our part in it would be as manna from heaven. one, thing, though, Ken Clarke spent the whole of 1998 saying that he wouldn't have stuck to his own spending plans, given the changes in economic climate of the time, so the "golden chalice" was more luck than design, n'est-ce pas?
I would say that there should be no problems with sticking to the Labour government's spending plans. Their plans are almost inevitably priced very reasonably and only suffer from the minor downside that they will cost the taxpayer far more than they are planned to do. For example the Olympic bid was an entirely reasonable cost on the plan... however in reality it is already over budget and going to triple in cost.
Had they managed (or even) tried to keep to their spending plans we would be in a much better state these days, no?
Anonymous 11:14,
If you were reading the thread you would see the discussion about pledging to keep up Labour's spending plans for the next three years... so yes, actually, the Conservatives would match those.
And in response I can only say "Shhh, don't mention the terrible waste, peculation and inefficiency that means that less and less of this government's monetary pledges goes to the alledged recipients."
newmania, I didn'r say "Why a referendum then"!!Take your hands away from your eyes .I want one, but oinly after a proper debate.
anonymous [11.14 AM] You appear to think that public spending (grants to local authorities, investment in the NHS) is inherently virtuous. If only it were that simple. It's how you spend the money that counts, not how much.
As somebody rather crudely put it on another blog, 'We make it, they piss it up the wall.'
John - You do not make the rules here. Your campy self satisfaction is already grating. Stop it . Capiche?
Europe is not a complicated issue its simple . Do we or do we not wish to be ruled by foreigners. Perhaps it would work well after all many European countries seem lovely places but I prefer not to be anyway out of a sentimental attachment you will not understand .At bottom thats what it is about.
Sceptical Steve- Really then why has this demonstrably not happened? Are you saying that no UK government has any say whatsoever in its budget. I am .."sceptical"..there is more to this ...I hope .
On the solidity of the red . I would like the evidence of the entire history of the EU from its inception to this date to be exhibit A.I would like the reputation for dishonesty justifiably aquired by Tony Blair and now Brown to be regarded as Exhibit B .As I have already said , this is not just about the latest slither it is about the entire fraud some of which was under the Major Administration .
Anon seems to be generously spending our money for us ,in fact generously borrowing vast sums on our behalf. I `m so impressed. You forgot the £30 billion budgeted to bribe the Scots into disenfranchising the English voter and the £20 billion for the ID card fiasco. The giant lump to pay for the 8000,000 in the public sector to have tax protected pensions and the £94 billion of social welfare 80% of which remains something for nothing after the Tax credit fiasco. This profligate chancer is getting us into terrible trouble and its worse than it looks
Every paper , looks askance at Brown’s bid to solve debt by further borrowing . behind the scenes he is keeping up the fight to keep £30 billion private finance initiative borrowing off the balance sheet and create increasingly elaborate fictions to save his 40% rule . We thought that when the treasury agreed to adopt international accountancy standards the news would be out but the Treasury are now sating these rules do not apply to them . Thus Darling continues to use the flattering old figures keeping the corpse tucked none to subtly under the carpet. It stinks .
I have forgotten to mention the small but significant amount paid over to Labour`s pet propogandists , like CHIME who finance little twerps to wander around repeating today`s mantra whether or not they themselves understand it.
See that post . Thats your money that is
Cameron has just destroyed Brown, obliterated , pulverized him...he was astonishing.
Anyone watching PMQ's ? Gordon Brown RIP
Aaaaaaarrrggghhh. I'm at work so can't access anything on it. Tell me, tell me, tell me......
SEF, try Dizzy's blog for live updates. BBC Parliament is available online and even with the sound off you can see Gordon grimace.
Half of all young Tories victims of policy theft, says charity
MORE than 50% all young Tories have had their policies stolen off them by a pair of gruff Scotsmen, research by the Howard League for Penal Reform suggests.
Frances Crook, director of the League, cited the tragic case of ‘George’ a young Tory boy who had been cornered in the playground by Scotsmen and stripped bare of all his ideas.
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/half-of-all-young-tories-are-victims-of-policy-theft%2c-says-charity-20071010458/
newmania I don't care if you think I'm one of the twerps, or what you think of me personally. I don't think i was trying to dictate the rules in criticising your aggression, and I take "campy" as a compliment, as I do aim to give my posts a little flourish, though I apologise for grating. (My wife never complains!) What I'm interested in is debate, from either side, as a persuadable slightly left of centre reasonable British patriotic normal person, who has voted for all three major parties in the past.
Some recent posts have praised Cameron's performance at PMQ, and I agree. he sounded even better than Hague used to,. The only problem is that PMQ performances don't win elections.
acn I ask a sensible question? Does the success of Osborne's IHT proposal mean that more tax-cutting ideas will be forthcoming in order to show more clear blue water? (Notwithstanding the restraints of Lady T.'s Maastricht Treaty)
Brown really looked rattled on a couple of occasions, which was fun; I loved the first question and GB's angry response too.
Watching 'The Daily Politics' after PMQs, Yvette Cooper showed once more that she's every bit the equal of her husband. Dinner-times at their place must be a hoot.
Desperate Dan said...
"On the radio this morning Darling confessed that he doesn't understand Osborne's figures. Oh dear. That means Gordon has chosen as Chancellor someone who's a bit thick where numbers are concerned.
October 10, 2007 10:19 AM"
No, it just means that Squeakies figures were conjured out of nowhere. That's why nobody can understand how he arrived at them.
Group hug. I `m not really agressive ..I am busy though cheerio
Cameron is being compared to Mohammed Ali on the Daily Politics - dancing like a butterfly stinging like a bee. Brown flailed about shooting out punches as random - with none of Blair's agility and precision. Kevin Maguire was forced (grudgingly) to admit Cameron bested Brown. Yvette Cooper is looking sick as the proverbial. Tories prepared a beautiful curtain raiser with an invitation to Brown to visit a bottle bank. Even Straw had to suppress laughter.
er I mean "float" like a butterfly of course (oops).
Me neither and me too newmania!
Does laughter work in the Commons? Didn't work for Hague.
Cameron risks looking like Judy to Brown's punch, but it is fascinating to see how their exchanges develop. This is why I didn't want an election yet, the opposing styles are so different, and Cameron clearly has the edge in terms of rhetoric. Can he become "weightier", and can Brown learn to be nimble? I'd rather watch this than Cameron v Blair.
Yet another stumbling, less-than-mediocre performance from the dismal Brown at today's PMQs.
His constant feeble attempts to score cheap points against the Tories rather than act with the dignity accorded to his office is turning him into a stunning liability, not just for the Labour Party, but, more importantly, for this country.
In just 100 days this gruesome egotist has become a joke Prime Minister. How long can he survive in this lame-duck fashion?
How long can the country afford to tolerate and indulge him particularly with the economy on the verge of deteriorating?
Sorry John T - I can't see how you can think Brown has weight or punch. His PMQ performances remind me of a drunk beggar who used to sleep outside Waterloo station. He used to lash out in random directions, swearing at pretty much everyone who got too close to him. Brown does exactly the same; get too close to the bone and he'll come at you, blindly swinging, and with as much tact and grace as our homeless friend. After the drunk punched a policeman, I never saw him there again. Let's hope Brown punches a policeman - or something to that effect - sometime in the near future...
I'm listening to it on R4. You can hear the tories sneer as Brown's cool breaks. This is excellent stuff. Make him angry a bit more often Dave; he just looks like a hot tempered peeve.
Let's hope that the tories can keep the momentum going. Brown must fear every headline and dread every PMQ.
The others in the cabinet need to get out far more and sting this corrupt, cynical and moribund administration on every facet of its obscene character.
Brown just goes from bad to worse.
My money's on him being ousted before the next election, with a ton on Straw at 16/1 at Ladbrokes and the same on Denham at 25/1
Hmmm I meant "shadow cabinet". Patience, patience....
I found very amusing GB's claim that this morning only 24 people had signed up for an election in 2007 on the e-petition system. I just checked and there are a lot more signatures there now. Sign up now!
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Election-year/
The petition that the PM mentioned in PMQs that had 26 signatures when he mentioned it, but now has over 200. Click here to sign it too.
429 signatures now that I've just signed it.
Send Brown a message and sign this petition.
What is astonishing for a new PM is the total lack of ideas or vision. All he could quote to DC were the minimum wage and independance for the Bank of England - policies from Blairs government ten years ago. Labour are in big trouble.
Hi Dave
I didn't say Brown had punch, but opinion polls reflect that he is not regarded as nimble, and that Cameron has been seen as lightweight.
As far as exhortations to sign the petition goes, if everyone in the country who wanted an election did sign it, again, according to the polls, a majority would still not want an election.
My general point is that while they may be "corrupt, cynical and moribund", the public perception, through the opinion polls, is that they are still popular enough to be level-pegging with the Conservatives. Strong language and poersonal insults are I believe counter-productive.
@Anon 11:14
Errrm, this bunch of hoods have been screwing money out of us for years, throwing left, right and centre for years - esp, education (education, education) and the NHS.
Look at the state both are in. The basic fact is that the spin on Drongo Brown as Chancellor Par Excellence is just that - spin. He presided over 10 years over overtaxing and appalling waste.
Darling will just do as he has been told (along with the rest of the cabinet, who were all found - I can reveal exclusively - in alien pods in a greenhouse in the garden of Number 10 {some of them didn't work out that well - viz. Blinky Balls, clearly not fully human, and the Miliblobs, avg age 2 years 3 months}).
Or, briefly, more astroturfer bollocks. Brown has hardly started his career as Diktator, and he's already done for. Just watch him look sicker and sicker as they up his chorpromazine dosage
Just watch him look sicker and sicker as they up his chorpromazine dosage
Is there anything in this rumour I have seen it around ?
Anon,
Maybe he's afraid the Tories will steal his ideas.
Er ... no ... hang on ... sorry ... that's what his lot do, isn't it.
Does he suffer from hiccups?
Something very strange is going on with that petition for an election.
I signed it ten minutes ago and I was No 429. Since then at least thirty people have signed it. However it is now showing only 427.
What's going on?
I tried to sign it and they haven't sent me the promised email.
I suspect Brown is furiously deleting half of the signatures as fast as his chubby fingers can operate a keyboard.
Strange, it's down to 426 now?
When DC opposed 'Punch and Judy' politics he was referring to sham knockabout. The kind of politics where the opposition is always on the offensive as a posture - his point was that where the opposition agree with the government they should say so. But he was never against genuine and sincere 'righteous indignation' when it was called for. That is what he's expressing now. Just as Liam Fox's fine lines against Brown's Iraq stunt came straight from the heart, so Cameron's fury today was for real. That's why it was so effective.
Ok it looks like it's just had a Brown Bounce it's gone up to 615.
Strange, it's down to 426 now?
October 10, 2007 2:01 PM
On WATO they said it had gone up to over 2000. Very strange.
Immoral Compass
Interesting isn’t it how selectively outraged some folk can be. As we know Councillor Miranda Grell was convicted under the Representations of People Act 1983 when she invented a story that her Lib Dem rival was a paedophile .The ruse worked, allowing her to overturn a 6oo majority in the Leyton ward. The fiction was all the more disgraceful, becaus her rival , Barry Smith, is openly gay and has lived with his Malaysian partner for 13 years .
She said:
“ Don`t vote for barry because he is a paedophile “
And .....
“Have you heard about him sleeping with Thai boys ? His boyfriend is sixteen and he is dirty”
Lovely......
She has lost her job working for Ken Livingstone’s aide Nicky Gavron but remains on the board of that estimable collection of 70s refugee lefties Compass They are ”Standing by her”. We recall that Compass published a nasty dossier branding Boris a racist on the basis of limericks written when he was six .Obviously homophobic and vicious slurs in the real world are quite alright . I have speculated at the close links with the GLA this body seems to have .We are unable to track its funding which is swathed in mystery .We can only guess ; but if the activities of Compass are anything to go by , her fall from grace will not last long .
Head of Sleazy Lies ? ...probably pays a bit in the GLA. I look forward to congratulating her on promotion
Daily Referendum said...
Strange, it's down to 426 now?
October 10, 2007 2:01 PM
What are you saying theres a conspriracy. Silly little children. The number can go down, and do when arse holes from Tory HQ sign it more than once
I can just picture Caulton and Tory HQ, no tie, Fred Baker shirt, rounding up his arse hole staff urging them to access the 10 Downing Street site, Is this the best you can do. Are you not all being very childish
I've just signed it when it was 612, I see that my name plus about fifty others has been added and it still says 612.
Who's doing the counting Brown or Darling. Actually, I suppose if one of them were it would probably still say 26, the rest being shared between the NHS and education!
Re: Punter 1:14pm
Agreed, but in fairness Brown probably wasn’t the worst performer today – I actually thought that he gave the squeaking Ming Campbell a fairly easy ride, considering the fact that it has been the latter’s weak leadership that has led to the haemorrhaging of support from the Lib Dems to the Conservatives. The House of Commons has always needed a resident runt, and that is one job for which Ming seems eminently qualified.
Brown's petition now stands at 612 signatures and climbing. Sign it now.
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Election-year/
Ocsar Said October 10, 2007 2:03 PM
“”Cameron's fury today was for real””
Ooohhhhhh Cambo the Hard Man…Priceless.
This is just getting very silly, and as ever you lot get more delusional; as time passes.
If there had been an election, Cameron wouldn’t have won, the best he could hope for was a hung parliament with a majority of Labour MPs, the most likely outcome was Brown with a reduced majority. You can dispute this till the cows come home, but it is a fact.
Tell Me; you know how the Tories are all grown up now, and take politics seriously, and cambo is the hard man with attitude, can you explain why you are still pulling childish PR stunts, such as life size Brown bottles, and 99 red balloons stunts.
Get a life
Wonder if the plotting to remove Brown's started yet? Political oblivion beckons for the Labour Party.
Repealing the The Hunting Act 2004 has over 42000 signatures and is still open.
Are you all going to sign that one too.
Tory Wankers
"This is just getting very silly, and as ever you lot get more delusional; as time passes."
OOH!
If you look delusional up in the Dictionary it has a picture of Gordon Brown's book Courage.
One day before the 2010 election, Brown will simply say the dreaded words.""""Fox Hunting""". Five more years in the wilderness
oh the irony said...
"This is just getting very silly, and as ever you lot get more delusional; as time passes."
OOH!
If you look delusional up in the Dictionary it has a picture of Gordon Brown's book Courage.
October 10, 2007 2:36 PM
Yawn, off school closed today is it
What a hollo, uninspiring second rater Brown is ; no elouquence, no inspiration, no grace and no new ideas. He spent far too long hating Tony , nursing imaginary grievances and obsessions. Plotting and conniving so often and so dishonourably that he didn't ever plan for the long-term.. He can only lurch from one disaster to the next. He has absolutely no vision, that's obviously why he keeps banging on about it.
Didn't someone point out at the weekend that learning the words prior to delivery is not new-it's called ACTING!
He actually boasted that he gave the Bank of Enfgland Independence again today. When was that??? Desperate, desperate scraping the barrel stuff. The powder's dry Gordon! He can't carry on like this, surely?
"Yawn, off school closed today is it"
Anyone make sense of that sentence? It's as mangled as a flustered Brown retort. Your boy was shameful today mate, give it up. He's a metaphorical open goal, everyone can see how weak he is. Game's over.
The election delay is a bonus for Dave as it now gives him plenty of time to get the Cons. out of the dreaded EPP and honour his leadership election pledge.
Plus a great opportunity to deliver a meaty political speech to the annual conference.
One thing you dont' do at PMQs is highlight a E petition on the Downing Street Web Site calling for an election and telling everybody it has only 27 signatures - that is plain idiocy and just asking for trouble.
Brown should have not mentioned it and it would have sunk out of sight. Now he's given every Tory activist;people with a grudge and the internet geeks a signal to go for it in their thousands. The media will report this tomorrow and Cameron will use it at next weeks PMQs.
Another tactical blunder by Gordon!
Much as I dsagree with the tone of the remarks made by "elby the berserk" and co., I dissociate myself from the similar tones of various "anonymous" posters, and I'm NOT from Compass. i'd give my address or phone number to prove it, but I'm scared of some of you! (Compass sounds a dodgy bunch to me, newmania). I still want to know from the confirmed Tories here whether Old Tory policies of income tax-cutting are back with us?
Having said that, I reckon Elby The Berserk had his tongiue in his cheek and was just trying to wind people up!
anonymous - not a tactical blunder if he wants all your e-mail addresses!
When the going gets tough the NuLab class warriors can always rely on "Fox Hunting" to get them going again.
Lets examine the evidence,
Umm, a million pound bung from the animal rights lobby - CHECK
Umm, a regularly announced policy (regularly announced when needed to divert attention from something else) Iraq debate at the conference anybody ? - CHECK
Umm, finally a badly drafted bit of legislation that some gap year wonk rushed off in a morning - CHECK
Umm - Use the undemocratic parliament act because even the Labour peers just aren't that stupid - CHECK
Umm - Another bit of useless NuLaw (to go with the 5000 other ones) that is ignored, impossible to police and held in low regard by BOTH sides of the argument - CHECK
Actually I agree with the NuLab trolls, the Hunting Act is the perfect example of our wonderful government in action.
Dorset Boy.........................
What is the point of a Gordon Brown?
"What is the point of a Gordon Brown."
Good point, he hated Tony Blair well. That's about the only thing he's done with any degree of competence, de-stabilising their most successful leader. He's political posion in their body politic so at least useful fool for the Tories.
As Gordon Brown foolishly pointed out today at PMQs - more people should probably sign this petition calling for a general election..
Thanks for pointing that out to us Gordy!
Doh!! LoL :)
Public : Go on - Sign sign sign.
Iain, please do a separate blog for this worthy petition. Maybe Gordon can give us an update on 'numbers' at next weeks PMQs?
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Election-year/
Sign away!
John t 2.54pm
Still a stupid thing to do though !
had the misfortune to see Yvette Cooper on the daily politics,what a vile creature,easily as hopeless as her moronic husband get rid of this shower of shit now.
I want to dicuss what Iain Dale was doing in bed with David Cameron's wife whilst George Osburn filmed the goings-on. Rumour has it that Letwin is flogging the footage on eBay.
I agree with the earlier poster who said Cameron now has psychological dominance over Brown.
Set England Free! said...
...Brown is proud of his intelligence but his glowering and nail biting betrays little self belief.
Actually SEF the idea that Broon bites his nails is more spin by Broon.
When Broon chews his nails what he is actually doing is retrieving some choice bawgies that he has previously picked oot of hez nooz. Having loaded up his fingernails with greenies, he can then pop them into his mouth and chew contentedly on them by way of a little snack. If he has saved a few for later he can eat them in plain view and it just looks like he's chewing his nails.
If you doubt this, have a look at him doing exactly that on YouTube:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VaP1HB7Vew
There he sits, picking bawgies out, then chewing them off his fingernails and wiping his fingers on his tie. He does this in Parliament front of the cameras. He does not just chew his fingernails, which is a nervous but innocent tic - he eats his bawgies in public, like the pampered, overprivileged, childish little shit he is. He is just fucking vile.
Brown is at it again!
Gordon Brown's £2 billion pensions tax raid
pulling childish PR stunts, such as life size Brown bottles, and 99 red balloons stunts.
Neither of these involves the of British troops as extras.
Verity you are right about Cameron`s dominance in fact only Salmon gets anywhere near him as an operator. Would now be a good time to admit that I was right about him all along . Hmmmm?
Sometimes it is truly brave and decisive to change your mind as "The Supreme Leader" tells us in the "Age Of Change"
Excellent online comment following a Simon Heffer piece in today's Telegraph -
'Brown has not changed one iota from the devious, untrustworthy teenager who arrived with me at Edinburgh University. His father really was a decent man and to hear this charlatan claim that his life and actions are a mirror image is outrageous. Pass me the sick bag, Darling.'
Posted by Rev Dr John Cameron on October 10, 2007 9:37 AM
David Cameron is tenacious, consistent and steady - I think it's time for Gordon Brown to realise that he's been punked by DC. Bigtime.
:)
Please excuse me for changing the subject but I would be grateful if you could all consider the case of Captain Pablo Mason who was sacked from his job with Mytravel for allowing a footballer, Robbie Savage, Blackburn Rovers, suffering from fear of flying onto the flight deck during a charter flight. A Gulf War veteran and RAF handlebar moustache champion, Pablo Mason protested against mindless security last year when he walked through the metal detector at Birmingham Airport in his underwear. That cost him a two month suspension. Please send polite and positive comments to feedback@mytravel.co.uk
Hasn't Bank of England independance just been proven to be a disater with the first bank run in 140 years?
I saw Jack Straw laughing at a couple of the Cameron jibes during PMQs. Rather disloyal, I thought. I gather he is now the favourite to succeed Brown. Are these facts connected?
'Brown has not changed one iota from the devious, untrustworthy teenager who arrived with me at Edinburgh University
My god has Hefferlump actually remebered to face in the right direction for once.Imagine everything Brown says in Blair`s voice and the truth is clear.
Same bloke
The Petition now has over 1200 signitures - common on folks !
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Election-year/
Can I ask for a few more petition ideas? Can't think of any myself, but I thought i'd get you going with one for a pay rise for Brian's
wronged pilot?
I fear that 1200, or even 1200000 might still not be enough to arm Cameron with sufficient ammunition for a follow-up next Weds. He should stick to his policy of second-guessing Brown's tie-colour, and then pretending that PMQs are the other way round.
Charlotte
On Ladbrokes David Miliband is still hot favourite at 6/4 to take over from Brown though Jack Straw is coming up fast on the outside and support for him seems to be building.
Seems the Labour Party wants the closest to what they have to a "safe pair of hands" after the Brown shambles though, no doubt some of his female colleagues, both living and deceased, would say Jack's hands tend to wander somewhat.
newmania, I think "punter" is from Compass!
At 5.00 PM the e-petition total was 1276.
However, even if it reached 1,000,000 the government could simply point out that that represents only one person in 60. It would need to reach 30,000,000 before they would feel obliged to act on it.
anonymous, there are not 60m voters in this country, even if you add ex-pat voters - think 10m motivated enough to sign would be enough, but he'd still say no
Petition or no petition, the media and most of the public have seen through Brown and noticed that the emperor has no clothes. Even some of his own backbenchers are now openly laughing at his oafishness.
The man really is an incompetent clown driven only by a huge, but fragile, ego.
He'll go down in history as one of the worst, and briefest, Prime Ministers in history.
I think even the most battle hardened conservative partisan on here would have to admit that today Ming did ask some good questions. The focus on the lower and middle income families is still often lacking from conservative discourse, particularly the gruesome spectres of the Cornerstone group and others who haunt the opposition back benches.
I know it is rather an abstract thought, but how about Cameron openly stating that Brown has clearly reneged on his earlier promise to the British electorate, to hold a referendum. As a result the will of the people has been ignored and the Conservatives give notice to the government and the EU that any agreement signed by Brown, without a proper referendum will be immediately overturned by an incoming Conservative government until a proper referendum has been held.
That would make him advance to the second knuckle of each hand with fingernail shrapnel injuring most of his cabinet.
I agree with the need for a referendum (hell, why not go the whole hog and vote to stay in or out?) but if a new conservative government did that then it would severely damage Britain's economic and political ties with Europe and would make Cameron et al look a bit foolish on the international stage. Not how diplomacy works I'm afraid.
lLan Johnson's just been on TV admitting that Brown has buggered things up. Does he want the big job?
It's war, Alan Johnson has just been sticking the boot into Brown on News 24.
Terrific coverage of PMQs on Radio 4's PM.
For fifteen minutes, Cameron was praised and Brown was ridiculed.
And, as I write, the 6 0'clock news is giving us more of the same.
Luverly jubberly. There has been a definite change in the attitude of the media towards Cameron and the Conservatives. The Guardian today was particularly approving.
Re PMQs; Wasn't it wonderful? Cameron seemed to be baiting a bear that roared impotently in pain and frustration.
And how about the Tory MP who invited Brown to visit his Bromley constituency to admire the BOTTLE bank/
Alan Johnson has just given an interview to the BBC in which he is openly critical of Brown. The PM is reported to be furious at what he regards as gross disloyalty.
I knew there were plenty of mutterings against Brown behind the scenes but I wasn't expecting a senior cabinet minister to come out in the open so soon.
Unless he pulls things together pretty quickly the complaints will turn into rebellion and it will soon be all over for Brown.
Alan Johson 's been criticising the Great Leader on the BBC. Wow, things went downhill quickly for the clunker didn't they!
Bloody hell! Just heard Alan Johnson slagging Brown off on the Beeb!!!!!
It just doesn't get any better than this for Cameron
Denis McShane managed to mention Eton twice within the first minute of an interview on Radio 4. Is that all they can come back with?? Surely the new vision isn't entirely based on class envy is it ? (without even mentioning the privileged background of most of the Labour benches of course)
The point about the 115,000 or 150,000 non doms is that 85-90% of them are hop, fruit and veg pickers, nursing assistants, students, seasonal seaside workers, even real nurses. They are not the object of the exercise. These are small in number and though few are likely to run away over £25,000 or £30,000 this is clearly not going to raise £3.5 Billion. George Osborne, like Chris Philp, is a Tory who tells lies. Either that or he is very very stupid. I don't believe that.
I hear on the media grapevine that several govt. ministers are increasingly disillusioned with Brown's leadership and are complaining loudly, but out of brown's earshot, that they've been sold a pup.
It's not the end of Brown but it may be the beginning of the end.
Alan Johnson has done the verbal equivalent of throwing down the gauntlet and has calculated that Brown is too weak to stand up to him.
If Brown ignores it then watch his authority in the Labour Party ebb away.
He's just another bully who has been found out to be a coward.
Chris Paul
Your party is beginning to tear itself apart. Is that the best you can come up with? For goodness sake man, get a grip on reality. Talk about cognitive dissonance, they've all gone barmy in the Labour Party since Blair left.
Chris Paul
Are you a Brownite or a Johnson man?
"For 10 years you have plotted and schemed to have this job, and for what? No conviction, just calculation. No vision, just a vacuum."
Lethal.
Can't believe the Sky News coverage - repeats of Cameron telling the Great Clucking Feartie to push off down the Palace and call an election, followed by reaction shot of Brown chewing what must have been an especially tasty bogey. Great! Is this the Revenge of Mr Anji Hunter?
Verity wrote,
I agree with the earlier poster who said Cameron now has psychological dominance over Brown.
Actually, even a retarded chimpanzee has a psychological dominance over Brown, even though a normal chimpanzee is also good at mimicking.
just saw PMQs on C4... bloody 'ell , this is getting personal.
Cameron tore CHUNKS out of Brownstuff.
is that the sharpening of Blairite knives I'm hearing?
Thanks Daily Referendum 3:45 PM
As it's pensions it will be safely buried (not as interesting as bogies etc) - nice work for bringing it up.
John t
you asked for more petitions. How about the one for a referendum on the eu constitution at
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/EU-reform/
spread the word
Chris Paul,
You are talking out of your head.
Your nursing assistants, pickers etc are not registered as non-dom on their tax forms as there's no point. I'd wager that less than 0.1% are.
As you aren't an expert in these matters I'm curious to know where you got your ridiculous argument from.
What did Alan Johnson say that set all the hens clucking?
Someone tell those of us who didn't see it! Was it mean and contemptuous? Oh, I hope so!
Why has no one thought of playing the march Colonel Bogey as background for footage of Brown walking into Parliament.
Good for a bit of a larff.
I don't want him to be toppled by Alan Johnson, though, because Johnson has an appealing personality and he's quick on his feet. I'd rather a mental dwarf with a personality in the debit column, like Jack Straw, for example, be the new leader.
verity said...
What did Alan Johnson say that set all the hens clucking?
From News 24
Health Secretary Alan Johnson acknowledged later that "it's not been the best of weeks" for Mr Brown.
He told the BBC he did not blame the media for the election fever that ended on Saturday, adding: "I'm not saying we are blameless ...If he [Mr Brown] had thought it through and decided a weekend earlier, we wouldn't be having all of this."
Thanks, Anonymous. That was one to the chin, eh?
Verity, re: Johnson date..
table for two at THE FAT DUCK in Bray, perhaps?
:)
If Johnson was confident enough to say something so disloyal about Brown, that tells me that no one in the upper echelons of the Labour party is going to be looking to Brown for preferment. Meaning, give two months or so for it to sink in soundly, Brown appears to have undergone an incredibly swift demise.
The Labour party has seen his cowardly lack of decision and leadership, and has seen that he cannot stand up against David Cameron in Parliament. I think he will be out quickly.
My money's on Johnson, backed by the Blairites, to challenge Brown for the leadership within 12 months. Then watch D. Miliband, Straw, Hain, Denham, etc come crawling out of the woodwork to throw their hats in the ring.
They'll be deserting the disastrous Brown quicker than rats leaving a sinking ship.
Canvas - if that is your fantasy, go for it.
I don't like lefties of any description, but Johnson could appeal to female voters with less robust opinions, which is why I advance the notion of Jack Straw.
Has Tony Blair or Cherie Blair commented on this fine mess that Brown has created?
Anyone know?
@ Chris Paul.
Any evidence for your assertions at all? Any recognised statistical source as to the numbers?
Or is this the usual 'make-it-up-as-you-go-along' stuff?
Yvette Cooper was being interestingly rogered by Andrew Neil today. It was quite fun to watch as an hors-d'oeuvre before the main event (directed by the even-handed Mr Speaker).
Johnson is more appealing than Straw to women. Straw has baulked at standing before, for anything, and so Johnson looks sufficiently strong to be a possible candidate.
Milliband is definitely a busted flush. He refused to declare vs Brown and gave a very flat performance at conference. He is merely an apparatchik with no talent beyond being slightly better looking than the rest of the pack.
"I don't like lefties of any description, but Johnson could appeal to female voters"
would agree with you there verity.
plus he's ENGLISH - we cant factor out resurgent English nationalism. I think that'll be a factor as well.
and the female vote is utterly crucial in the marginals. (which is the whole point of Cameron and his softening of the Tory image)
ps: I've somehow managed to forget a password, or suchlike, and so have had to reincarnate myself with an extra exclamation mark!!!
Sky News seems inherently, and rabidly, anti Brown these days. IS this merely the case post the Andrew Marr interview or has it always been so?
Johnson recently said that he was , in all honesty , not clever enough for the top job. he will find that awfully hard to live down and it appears to be his genuine opinion
Chris Paul is hilarious isn`t he . The non doms is somewhat unknown compared to the solid tax relief. However put this into context
The country is £38 billion in debt , plus the off balance sheet £30 billion and at the same time Labour are accusing the Conservatives of a funding black hole Darling has just borrowed another £4 billion . This , you will appreciate , they call prudence. This figure will not scratch the surface of Browns give away Conference speech.
Its time for Osbourne to move a strategic pawn forward on spending or tax. Lower taxes will be needed to get the economy back in gear and does anyone believe throwing more money at the NHS will do any good. Sticking to labour`s spending commitments is madness without reform .
Come on Conservtaives you know the door is open ...now push it a little further...
Oh Verity , oddly I was unable to detect your admission that I was right about Cameron all along ..perhaps I missed it ?
Brown's petition stands at over 2,500.
Don't be fooled by Alan Johnson's "cheeky chappie" act. He's really an embittered screwball with a king size chip on his shoulder.
Anyone who encouraged him into Number 10 would soon live to regret it, believe me.
Newmania - One rose does not a summer make. We will see.
Brown's an easy target because he is so insecure and chippy.
Stand Firm - No one wants to encourage Johnson to stand because, whether he has a king size chip on his shoulder or not, he doesn't put women off.
We want to encourage Jack Straw to stand.
I detect a slight softening Verity....well its a start
xx
anonymous at 7.40pm, I was asking for ideas for potential new petitions, not existing ones. Newmania and I have hugged in agreemenr over the need for an EU Reform Treaty referendum, though I suspect the result would be unsatisfactory to both sides of the argument
I guess you're all too busy celebrating to bother with me, but if somebody can address my earlier question regarding whether any more traditional conservative polivcies of tax-cutting, de-regulation, etc. are expected, given the success of the £2m (minus lawyers' fees!) IHT threshold idea?
verity said...
We want to encourage Jack Straw to stand....
I hear he's busy breaking in Oona King into the Government at present.
Blackburn - Yes. I saw that. Another 10th rate old leftie being promoted out and about. I love it!
Her father was a draft dodger, so we know she was brought up with a fine sense of duty.
The BBC Headline regarding PMQs is that Brown 'said he would not take any lectures from the Conservative leader'. Well that's true but hardly the most striking thing about the encounter I would have thought.
BBC radio just reported Charles Falconer is complaining about Brown in print tomorrow. Oh dear, who's next to abandon the sinking ship?
Can't quite fathom out Alan Johnson's motives for rebuking Brown so publicly today, how is it expedient for him? One thing we know about Brown ; he's can't brook the accent of reproof and holds grudges. Is something afoot? Is it an expression of resentment resulting from Brown's over dependence on a young clique of chippy acolytes , a warning redress? Curious! How bad are things within the Labour Party ?
Where is the VISION ???
Gordon is a one trip Phoney.
TAX AND SPEND.
It's just taken over 8 hours for my confirmatory email to say I have signed the petition asking for a General Election in 2007.
It appears that over 6,000 have signed so far.
(NB: Why will it remain open until the end of January 2008? Another NuLab NUPOLTIX wheeze?)
In the BBC 10pm TV news, a (new to me) reporter in the Lobby called Cameron 'brutal' during PMQ's.
I thought what came over during the exchanges was that both men seriously dislike each other, and for once Cameron let his anger show.
PMQ's don't win elections, but the media perception of Leaders' performances filter through to the public.
Despite being a dyed-in-the-wool Conservative, I thought Ming made a very good point today about lower-income families, and Cable was good yesterday.
But did anyone see Paxman on Newsnight tonight treating Hattersley like something from Care in the Community?
Cheekie Chappie - possibly a wee cabal has formed. If we see the way the wind is blowing, the people whose careers depend upon which way the wind is blowing will have felt the breeze on their cheeks.
I think the Feartie's friends and allies, assuming he ever had any, will be dropping off like dandruff.
Judith (12.20am) - Hattersley was risible. I could hear Howard, Charlie and Jeremy sniggering off camera when he came out with his geriatric disembling nonsense.
It was almost like he was saying that "you must treat Gordon with respect because he's the PM".
Remember Blair saying to Major: "Weak, weak, weak!"? That wasn't Punch and Judy politics was it?
Brown is definitely rattled - the worst I've seen him - so much so he had to resort to spouting meaningless and non-sequitur numbers about future spending. Can't stop being the Chancellor of the Exchequer, can he?
But he's still a clever practioner of the low arts of politics. At one point in PMQs he said something to the effect to Cameron that "you've revealed your plans and we will spend the next few weeks and months picking them apart". You could hear the whirr of the spin machines in the background as he was speaking.
I am sure the Conservatives will have a plan to counter this - I am a dyed-in-the-wool Conservative too so I have complete faith!
Grauniad headlines:
'Brown faces first cabinet criticism as Johnson attacks election dithering·
.PM has not had best of weeks, minister tells BBC
·Admission shows how rattled ministers are'
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/gordonbrown/story/0,,2188259,00.html
Brown out within six months.
I don't guess who his successor will be, but ten years as a failed Chancellor whose works are unravelling at a rate of media knotts, 10 angry years waiting for his right as the Thane of Fife to rule the United Kingdom ... and I predict it will explode in a tiny adieu rat fart.
The man is weak and frightened and I personally have always intuited that he wasn't quite right in the heed.
Yes, Verity - you're right. Brown is weak and frightened.
Brown simply doesn't cut the mustard. He has no sense of humour - and there is no such thing as a great leader who lacks a sense of humour. It doesn't happen.
Brown is a 'borrower' and a 'follower'.
The BBC Headline regarding PMQs is that Brown 'said he would not take any lectures from the Conservative leader'.
What - he just confines himself to taking the policies does he?
I had a laugh at Chris Paul's post. The non-doms do not include low wage seasonal workers - where on earth did he think that up? And hop-pickers went out with The Goon Show and Meet the Huggets. Machines have been picking hops for the last 50 years.
Next he'll suggest that Cordwainers, Fan-makers, Wheel-tappers and Fletchers will be affected by the new CGT rate on small businesses.
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