Having read THIS article in the Sunday Telegraph I would like to issue a personal apology to the people of Sheffield for my "decadence". The piece says that the Bishop of Carlisle believes that pro-gay legislation has provoked God to send storms to the North and flood people out of their homes. No, seriously. The Bishop of Liverpool agrees. "If we live in a profligate way then there are going to be consequences. God is exposing us to the truth of what we have done".
And they say the Church of England is out of touch with modern Britain...
Odd that god didnt choose to flood old compton street rather than sheffield.
ReplyDeleteI thought the floods were caused by there not being enough anti-terror legislation...
ReplyDeleteDear Iain,
ReplyDeleteThis is one of the reasons I admire you - you are/do what you are/do, with no sense of needing to apologise for that. AND without feeling the need to shove it in anyone's face either. You might say the "gay pride" that does not need to shout its name.
As you your post, hilarious !
Alan Douglas
It seems you weren't pulling your erm.. weight during last year's drought, then. Tsk.
ReplyDeletewatch out dought street. you'll be next, i tell ye.
ReplyDeleteMr Dale,
ReplyDeleteIt would be wrong to judge the Church of England by the naive and theologically-superfical pronouncements of a few clerics. It is rather like judging the Roman Catholic Church by the behaviour of a few paedophile priests.
Firstly, it needs to be observed that Pope Benedict himself accords with the reasoning of these bishops: he has made numerous speeches on the judgement of God upon the immoral and prodigal Western world. So accusation of being 'out of touch' might also be leveled at your preferred spiritual home.
But, more importantly, those who profess to be exegetes ought to take Job into account.
If God is omnipotent (acknowledged in 9:5-7, 8-10, 26:7-14, 12:7-10, 15-25), Job has no hope of establishing his innocence once God has decided to treat him as a sinner (9:20, 29-32), so that when Job speaks of God’s power, the emphasis is on God’s destructive force (9:22-24, 12:13-25). His understanding is therefore limited as God is viewed through the filter of suffering and thereby becomes an enemy (6:4, 16:6ff, 30:19ff), or a persecuting presence from whom respite is desperately sought (7:11-21). Such a hostile response to a deity or ‘fate’ is endemic in victims of trauma. Job is presented with a theological dilemma: If God is good, he cannot be omnipotent, and if he is omnipotent, he cannot be entirely good. We cannot conclude God only has limited control (42:2), because he controls even the satan (42:11). Job may question God’s goodness, but God rejects this (40:8).
It has to follow for Job that God’s unjust treatment of him was always a part of God’s secret plan (10:8-13), like the modern view of those suffering catastrophe that God playing some kind of divine chess game which he is foreordained to win. Job desires to somehow make sense of his trauma, but knows he has done nothing to ‘deserve’ such suffering. Christians have to wrestle with the question of how can we relate to God when the world he made does not make sense, for it often appears that the God of Job is not merely one whose thoughts and ways are simply higher than ours (Isa 55:9), but quite often grotesque and totally alien to them.
His Grace recalls a song some years ago with the lyric: 'Why does it always rain on me?’ It was followed with the line: 'Is it because I lied when I was seventeen?’ – an expression of the pervasive belief in exact retribution (Prov 9:10-12), as prevalent in twenty-first century 'church’ culture as it was in Job’s. The principal plea of those traumatised is ‘Why me?’ or ‘What have I done to deserve this?’, and the easy and comforting answer is to believe that the suffering is deserved, and that some personal wickedness or ‘sin’ was its cause, because associated guilt places the catastrophe in a comprehensible universal order, namely that suffering is explicable in terms of punishment. Job shares the premise of his friends that because God is just, he rewards the righteous and punishes the guilty, which is why Job can make no sense of his own suffering (10:5-7). ‘I’ve been wronged!… There’s no justice’ (19:7), he cries.
It isn’t easy to square Ps 146 with Job 24:1-12, or Deut 30:15-20 with Eccl 8:14-9:4. The writer of Job clashes directly with the ideology of Proverbs. Proverbs seems to say, 'Here are the rules for life; try them and find that they will work.' Job and Ecclesiastes say, 'We did, and they don’t'. But Job isn’t necessarily a contradiction to Proverbs; more a modification or qualification.
Therein lies the depth and richness of Christian theology, Mr Dale.
His Grace is once again pleased to have been of spiritual service on this Lord's Day.
'Profligate' doesn't mean 'gay', or even 'promiscuous', so on the basis of what you write (haven't read the Telegraph article), Liverpool isn't agreeing with Carlisle; he's being an exemplar of An glican stupidity from a different perspective
ReplyDeleteLiverpool is very foolish. I was debating against him at the Oxford Union, and he attempted to argue that free speech should be restricted by law so as to avoid offending religious groups. Oh, and he was quoting J. S. Mill to back up his argument ...
ReplyDeleteGood post Iain. The current bench of bishops is so intellectually flaccid, (and Liverpool is one of the worst), that it is very hard to justify their continued presence in the House of Lords.
ReplyDeleteIain, he is not blaming you but the "pro-gay" laws triggering your fall from grace.
ReplyDeleteSince when has religion been about anything other than superstition?
While science advances toward ever greater understanding of ourselves and our universe, religion and politics recycle manifest nonsense in support of ignorance and irrationality and deliberate falsehood in order to manipulate and control our lives.
Cramner (your Grace). From your post and exposition of Job, I deduce you are a Calvanist. Would that be correct? You sound very much like Martyn Lloyd-Jones - only without the Welsh accent.
ReplyDeleteHowever, either reformed or Arminian, if God's judgement is being seen through the floods, then it is because of mankind as a whole, not specificaly because 10% of the population have a biological preference for their own gender!
I don't recall God picking out gay people when he told Noah to go build and ark!
As for Sodom.....there are several interpretations of that aren't there, your Grace?
Too liberal more like.
ReplyDeleteDo you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God?
Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders.
1 Corinthians 6:9
It isn't the fault of poofs at all, it is all because of lightning rod manufacturers.
ReplyDeleteEver since Mr Frankilin invented this devil's device which nullifies God's devine vengeance on church steeples all the ills of the world have been the fault of lightning rod manufacturers.
"In America the earthquake of 1755 was widely ascribed, especially in Massachusetts, to Franklin's rod....``in Boston are more erected than anywhere else in New England, and Boston seems to be more dreadfully shaken. Oh! there is no getting out of the mighty hand of God.''
http://www.cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/White/air/rod.html
Or perhaps, since the church seems to be adopting the global warming Faith it should be the "mighty hand of Gaia".
Iain, Certain commentators said the same about the Tsunami in 2004. Thai "sex holidays" were the problem.
ReplyDeleteAs for Sodom.....there are several interpretations of that aren't there, your Grace?
ReplyDeleteHis Grace never mentioned Sodom, and accords with you completely that those passages are highly complex.
His wider point is that biblical exegesis ought to be carried out in a scholarly manner; not subject to the crassness of a tabloid headline.
"Thou shalt not commit adultery."
ReplyDeleteAt least you've not gone censorship mad Iain, unlike Guido who's slashed comments to the bone and politicalbetting.com who won't allow any posts suggesting that Gordon Brown was sedated during his Television appearance regarding the terrorist bombs.
ReplyDeleteSo does this mean you'll be putting off your trip to Rwanda and instead be making a barefoot pilgrimage to Canterbury? :-)
ReplyDeleteThey're totally right, of course. That explains the destructive tidal wave which inundated Castro Street in San Francisco, as well as the fact that here in Vancouver most of the West End is submerged in fathoms of seawat - oh, wait...nevermind.
ReplyDeleteIain, since you don't seem to believe in climate change, surely it's the most credible explanation!
ReplyDeleteAnd they say the Church of England is out of touch with modern Britain...
ReplyDeleteOr possibly, just possibly, modern Britain is completely out of touch with God.
Thank God Tunbridge Wells is built on a hill huh?!
ReplyDeleteWell it's nice to see the Church of England are no longer bothering with the Bible - didn't God promise Noah there'd be no more divine flooding to punish man?
ReplyDeleteI would say that the Bishop is on reasonably solid ground here. His arguments are just as likely to be true as those put forward by the enviromentalists who blame it all on human-induced climate change.
ReplyDeleteGot a good text today.
>>The streets of Sheffield can be heard to ring with cries of "great, smashing, super" as all those Bullseye contestants who won speedboats finally get to try them out.<<
His Grace never mentioned Sodom, and accords with you completely that those passages are highly complex.
ReplyDeleteI find the more complex the passage the greater the pleasure to be had . Would you not agree your Grace ?Anyway what did they do in Gomorrah ?I would like to try it !Mr. Dale might do the piteous millions a favour while in Africa and clear up their aridity with an orgy of depraved lust. Actually , from my brief meeting with Lord Dale I feel god must love him dearly . As gay man that dresses (presumably ) in the dark , it is to be counted a miracle that he has persuaded anyone to fornicate unnaturally with at all . Hallelujah
Now I am going to reread His Grace.Job my friend ...we all suffer in our different ways ...at least its a complex passage ...oh delicious agony, exquisite torment.
Yummy
"God is exposing us to the truth of what we have done"
ReplyDeleteIndeed - built houses on flood plains!
You can see why you Cameroonie Tory Bloggers are a load of Wa--ers--Literally.
ReplyDeleteIs the entire North of England turned Gay then? So much for it being grim up North...
ReplyDeleteRight then Iain if I give you my holiday dates, would you speak to all your pals and pack whatever it is you lot do in! The I'll be guaranteed good weather.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteIain, have you seen this in today's Telegraph?
ReplyDeleteSame old Brown, same old spin.
".....Mr Brown has instructed his MPs to tell voters how "inspiring" and "exciting" they find him and what a "pleasure" it is to work with him.
A slick campaign pack sent out last week instructs Labour MPs and candidates to mail thousands of voters to boast how happy they are with the change of prime minister.
Entitled "Introducing Gordon Brown as Prime Minister to your constituents", the book contains 25 pages of instructions on how MPs are to talk about Mr Brown. It says that a general election strategy called "Keep it Labour" is already in full swing and, in a call to arms, states: "The next general election starts NOW."
...The plan reveals Labour anxiety that, in its "battleground seats" in the South-East, David Cameron is a real threat. It includes instructions on how to carry out a recruitment drive and direct-mail campaign to reach disaffected voters and prevent them from switching to the Tories.
....Just to make sure everyone is completely on-message, the pack includes a template letter for MPs to tell voters: "I wanted to get in touch with you to tell you a little more about Gordon Brown, our new Prime Minister, and what this change of leadership will mean for our community here in (insert constituency)."
Although it is unlikely that all Labour MPs are on friendly terms with Mr Brown, the letter goes on: "I've known Gordon well for many years and it has been a pleasure working with him down at Westminster.
"He asked me to get in touch with you to see what you think needs to be done. I hope you will take a few minutes to get in touch so that I can tell our Prime Minister what your priorities are for (insert area)."
While Mr Brown has made much of a claimed move away from spin and control, MPs are nevertheless instructed to say: "Last weekend I watched Gordon Brown become the new Labour leader and on Wednesday I watched him enter Downing Street.
"It has been a really exciting and inspiring week. There is no doubt that Gordon has been a brilliant Chancellor, delivering economic stability, more jobs, a fairer deal for pensioners plus extra money for our local schools and hospitals.......cont"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=K3ZDZJQEQMW1RQFIQMFCFF4AVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2007/07/01/nelec201.xml
Meanwhile Brownite trolls plague Tory blogs like this one and Guido's while over in Government Brown is already out of his depth and struggling. Ah well.
We are having a particularly gay day in Manchester. It's pissing down.
ReplyDeleteYour Grace and The Hitch
ReplyDeleteThank you for your most welcome comments. And thanks to Iain for raising the matter.
I am getting heartily sick and tired of people who really should know better effectivly joining with jihadis in blaming gay people for everything from bad weather to terrorist attacks.
There was something in the New Testament about going into a village to preach the news with no money, no food - relying on the people there to provide. If they didn't then the dust had to be shaken off the sandals. That much I remember from Scripture lessons. What I cannot for the life of me recall was which palace Jesus Christ lived in -- surely it must have been more splendid than those the poor bishops are compelled to occupy. Am I missing something here?
ReplyDeleteDon't you remember the quote: "It is harder for a poor man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle."
ReplyDeleteIf that's so then the Labour apparachiks are ok...but what about the landed gentry? Anyone know Roman Abramovich's phone number?
ReplyDeleteCramer you try too hard to get away with far too much. For one thing, if you have to post a reply that long to refute a 'superficial' point, that is telling in itself.
ReplyDeleteYou go on to say it is wrong to
judge the Church of England by a 'few clerics'... oh well, that's eliminated Bishops since they might be no more than a few who are 'naive and theologically-superfical' (Some of us might agree). But then you go on to say that Pope Benedict agrees with the Bishop???
So... err... the Pope is one of these 'naive and theologically-superfical' few clerics... and we are now judging the Roman Catholic Church as well as the Church of England???
And nice ending Cramer with the sarcastic and patronising put-down: 'Therein lies the depth and richness of Christian theology, Mr Dale.' That comment is very typical of a wide range of 'preaching' Christians.
You do know, don't you that raw sewage also often has 'depth and richness'... and that it also can be just as offensive and dangerous to humanity?
Mr Ted Harvey,
ReplyDeleteHis Grace has every respect for Mr Dale, and wouldn't dream of putting him down.
You, however, are manifestly incapable of engaging with the complexities of complex issues, and clearly need to reduce everything to puerile superficiality. You may have to exist on the plane of tabloid journalism, but others do not. If you cannot comprehend that lengthy explanations are sometimes necessary to provide balance and context to single-sentence headlines, then it is you who are typical of unthinking and undiscerning humanity, and you who are incapable of digesting nothing but 'raw sewage'.
The Bishop of Liverpool isn't actually in on the homphobia is he? Isn't he just on the husky sled of the global warming sheeple?
ReplyDeleteIain Dale says:
ReplyDeleteThe piece says that the Bishop of Carlisle believes that pro-gay legislation has provoked God to send storms to the North and flood people out of their homes. No, seriously. The Bishop of Liverpool agrees. “If we live in a profligate way then there are going to be consequences. God is exposing us to the truth of what we have done”
Iain, I can see how you might think the Bishops were saying that, but if you read carefully what they said you’ll see it’s not that simple. Yes, Dow, Jones et al said that the Government has enacted immoral legislation over the past years and that also the west as a whole is guilty of ignoring it’s stewardship over creation. The Bishops also said that God’s judgement on sin is something we have pushed out of the way whereas it is a real thing. But none of the Bishops actually said that the floods were directly linked to homosexuality. Rather, the tone of the Bishop’s argument is that sin distorts the world into an ever more broken state, environmentally and spiritually, so as we become more broken and rejecting of God, so creation responds. Chartres said:
“We are all part of the problem and part of the solution. Instead of living as if we owned the earth we need to recover a sense of being participants in a web of life with responsibilities to other life forms and to our children.
Do you see the difference Iain?
Iain - just ignore them - they are just super(naturalist)s - give them no oxygen of publicity.
ReplyDeleteDeclare yourself as a BRIGHT ...
www.The-Brights.Net
I think the Bishop of Liverpool is onto a winner. After all we know from the Sun and Boris Johnson that Liverpool is an evil place so I expect it will be flooded first.
ReplyDeleteSo what is the C 0f E policy on gays, and equal rights for women (after all that's anti-biblical "wives, obey your husbands") ?
"Those whom the gods would destroy they first make mad" appears an apposite reply to the Bishop:-)
anon 1.56 PM - no that proves that God has a sense of humour, otherwise why did he invent homosexuality (or was that the devil - we don't hear much about him these days) and why did he not make his Chosen resemble more Maria Sharapova.
ReplyDeleteI think the Bishop of Liverpool is onto a winner. After all we know from the Sun and Boris Johnson that Liverpool is an evil place so I expect it will be flooded first.
ReplyDeleteSo what is the C 0f E policy on gays, and equal rights for women (after all that's anti-biblical "wives, obey your husbands") ?
"Those whom the gods would destroy they first make mad" appears an apposite reply to the Bishop:-)
Cramner (your Grace). From your post and exposition of Job, I deduce you are a Calvanist.
ReplyDeleteJean Calvin always liked people to spell his name correctly. His Grace was influenced by Luther and Calvin as you well know if you read about him, but there are no Bishops in a Calvinist Church......episcopacy derives from Rome not Geneva.
There are c. 119 Bishops plus a few Suffragans today which is many more than in 1900. The Church of England is somewhat top heavy and really needs only one or two bishops per county not one or two per city.
I fail to see why Sheffield and Rotherham should be made to suffer for the sins of the many, and prefer to blame the Environment Agency stuffed with Labour Placemen for incompetence rather than excuse them through divine action.
When a Bishop proclaims that people are losing homes and businesses through an Act of God he is inviting insurance companies to use their evasion clauses in the policies. He really should think before speaking, and not associate a general disdain for this disintegrating society with every passing event as if the two were causally related
God will not need Noah to rid the wicked people of the Earth,he just needs to fill it with Gays who will not procreate.
ReplyDeleteThat will be something to blame the Gays with ----- THE END OF DAYS.
I am pretty sure rainbows are still visible. As Anonymous pointed out, god promised no more floods to root out sin, and the rainbow is his covenant against this.
ReplyDeleteAs for this being a more likely explanation than global warming, I will believe the climatologists' models when they incorporate the real causes of weather. As those of us who live with 20 miles of SW19 can attest, rain is caused by tennis tournaments. When the IPCC builds this into their models, I'll start listening.
Quentin Langley
Editor of http://www.quentinlangley.net
It's been dry as a bone round here for months and my farmer chums are getting desperate. Maybe I should suggest they all become gay for the duration.
ReplyDeleteIf they go for the idea can anyone tell me where I can find an instruction book for them?
If they go for the idea can anyone tell me where I can find an instruction book for them?
ReplyDeleteLiberal Party would be my first call. Just ask anyone "happily married"
I guess that Saint Cramner proves my point for every one when he spouts such like:
ReplyDelete"If you cannot comprehend that lengthy explanations are sometimes necessary to provide balance and context to single-sentence headlines, then it is you who are typical of unthinking and undiscerning humanity, and you who are incapable of digesting nothing but 'raw sewage'."
As I said, a certain type of 'preaching' Christian
Amen.
Boy George says a reshuffle is "above my gay parade".
ReplyDeleteBet that'll cheer the traditionalists up.
So, this is all down to you then Iain? What have you been up to you naughty person? The patio has been uninhabitable for at least a week, now. Whatever it is you're doing, stop it immediately!
ReplyDelete"The Bishop of Liverpool agrees. "If we live in a profligate way then there are going to be consequences. God is exposing us to the truth of what we have done".
ReplyDeleteWell, it's obvious isn't it? Raffa Benitez pours £120 million down the drain trying to buy Liverpool FC the premiership and look what happens?
"Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders."
I'm sure I'm in there somewhere, just can't figure out which one...
The Remittance Man said.
ReplyDeleteHow can I make fun of people with flooded homes and those who have lost their property and businesses ?
Perhaps I can show my utter contempt for them by making silly comments
If I was God I would punish Northerners too.
ReplyDeletePeople really don't like the thought of God's judgment, do they?
ReplyDeleteThis is one of the most non-wishy-washy things a Church of England bishop has come up with for a long time and Graham Dow is someone not to be dismissed lightly.
The thought that God might disapprove of one of the central tenets of modern Britain - homosexual rights - is just, well......
Mr Dale, will you get it into your thick head that we are not interested in the sordid details of your personal life? Now snap out of it and find a good woman to love -- isn't Margaret Thatcher available now?
ReplyDeleteI don't think God is punishing us with floods, but it is true that modern Britain is very out-of-touch with Him.
Clothilde Simon
If it is your fault, Iain, I want to say that Mrs Weasel has just had two weeks home leave ruined by the beastly weather. Not only that, Weasel Hall estate is in need of a good tidy up that has been impossible due to excess precipitation.
ReplyDeleteIf you could concentrate on sexual fantasies about nice young Conservative women next week, take all the showtunes and Meatloaf off your I-pod and do something manly like ajusting the tappets on your Audi, I could get on with mowing the lawn.
Voyager: I didn't think that reformed Calvinist thinking was confined to demoninations without an episcopy?
ReplyDeleteAfter all, there were Anglican puritans (the Dissenters) who objected to what they saw as the re-Romanisation of the Anglican church under the Stewart Monarchs.
But there were Arminian Anglicans (such as Wesley) whose religious experience lead them to a different perspective on the subject of election.
I think that the situation is that whether reformed or no, liberal or evangelical or high Anglican, the situation changes from parish to parish
I am sure there are still reformed anglicans today though.
I am sure there are still Reformed Anglicans today though.
ReplyDeleteWould be nice to think so then these Anglo-Catholics can be sent to Rome and the Arminians can go back to running book clubs
A Southerner said...
ReplyDeleteIf I was God I would punish Northerners too.
July 01, 2007 10:37 PM
but quite clearly you are simply the Anti-Christ
I think it is more likely to be God's displeasure at the thought of the Church of England appointing female-bishops.
ReplyDeleteIt is just a taste of the real drenching to come when the Synod approves that one.
You should be an after-dinner stand-up comedian Mr. Dale. You have brilliant flair for sarcasm!
ReplyDeleteVery well done!!!
I was feeling faintly misery-buckets yesterday, due to just being sick of the rain and feeling sorry for all the people whose homes have been flooded.
ReplyDeleteBut the mad bishop has put a different complexion on it! I didn't know that by the mere random fact of fancying blokes I could be part-responsible for such acts of power! Or perhaps fancying them wasn't enough, I must write to the Bishop and ask him, did it require the civil partnership - you know the legal and lifelong commitment to one another - to really bring down the wrath of vengeful God? on people in Sheffield, none of whom I know? Anyway. Am now feeling supercharged, X-man type Potent Being thing. Bow down to my will, puny hu-man, or I shall judge your soft furnishings and find them in need of a darn good re-plumping!
Really I do need more of these stern moral lectures from the House of Bishops. Thank God the Church of England's hierarchy is such a redoubt of robust heterosexual leadership.
If the Conservatives had only chosen Edward Leigh as their leader, all this could have been avoided, but in these circumstances, I'm afraid that my hand was forced.
ReplyDelete