Sunday, November 16, 2008
How Not to Encourage the Unemployed Back Into Work
Harry Blackwood lost his job recently. He's 52 and had been in full time employment since 1973. Having paid his taxes for 35 years he thought he'd sign on and claim unemployment benefit. Read HIS STORY and see how 'the system' treated him. In the end he told 'the system' where it could stick its benefit.
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38 comments:
I'm struggling to see what they actually did wrong. I'm afraid its clear that the chap viewed himself as above the whole process anyway and the bottom line is revealed in the last paragraph, he doesn't actually need the money. I signed on for a couple of months a few years ago and went through a similar set of hoops but I didn't find it humiliating, its just part of the process. I expect to have to do the same at some point in the next 6 months as the sector I'm in has stopped dead. The £60 a week is not the point, but the £1500 a month mortgage protection insurance certainly is. Anyone who has this should not forget that they will have to sign on in order to claim from the insurance company.
Tell me about it. I'm 57, and lost my job 2 years ago, and only recently went on the dole. 25 years in IT, design, coding and consultancy. Was looking for a part-time job.
Kennel Hand. Yes - that's the only job I was offered. So I closed the claim down. Poor, very poor - who wants to be harassed by the state.
It's even worse for me. I'm now 59, no driving licence, one (not so good) eye working, five O-levels (and that's it), so what prospects do I have? I'd next virtually zero.
I haven't even bothered with Jobcentre Plus, and don't anticipate ever doing so.
Mr Ward - stand as a councillor!
You'll get a basic allowance, a laptop, a dedicated home phone line, then special responsibility allowances, travel expenses, some freebies (sandwiches, tea and bikkies, occasional trips etc), and all you have to do is put up with some weird people in the same club in the Town Hall.
Cath - I have been there and and it is huumilating inasmuch that there is really no effort or personal touch, particularly if you are older and very qualified. If you don't tick the boxes - forget it. What is humiliating is that they treat you as a no hoper - I have never been offered an interview, let alone a job through a Jobcentre. Ageism is rife out there but especially with Jobcentre Plus. It is so depressing and I have a great deal of sympathy and empathy for Elby, John M Ward and the gentleman who wrote the article.
Luckily, a very good friend, back in 2005 hired me for a six month position and I went right from there into full time work, thank God. Had he not believed in me I don't know where I would have been.
Recently signed on for the first time in my life.
Firstly, there's a badly designed website where you fill in your details. I'm sure I could have made a better one as part of a GCSE IT project.
Then a phone call where they go through what seems like much the same list of questions.
Still have the interview experience to go through; I don't have any problem with showing I'm looking for work as I am. Have a nagging doubt they'll patronise me and expect me to go for something completely irrelevant to my qualifications and experience though.
One thing I don't get is how public transport is only subsidised once you're on the New Deal, surely one unemployed person should not be discriminated over another?
lady f - I think the mistake you're making is to assume that the role of a jobcentre is to find people jobs. It is not, it is the government's way of persuading the middle classes not to bother. I never had any expectation that the jobcentre would help me get a job, it was purely an administration process for insurance purposes. Frankly if you are looking for much beyond call centre, shop or care work, jobcentres are a lost cause. Maybe it's because I'm in recruitment but I wasn't in the least bit surprised by this and I'm a bit surprised that other people are surprised!
On another note, £60 a week clearly isn't enough to live on but it's too much to allow a bit of false pride to get in the way of me claiming.
I used to work in the DHSS, we aren't trained for the personal touch, we were form fillers in and box tickers. I did the same job for the citizens advice, it is really about knowing your way around the system and pointing people in the right direction. But you're not trained as such, one learns on the job. People get angry at you as if its your fault, it isn't.
All I would say to this gentleman is, £60 odd was your entitlement, TAKE IT, if you don't someone else will.
Read this post to see the problem from the other side of the desk:
http://listeningblogger.blogspot.com/2008/11/jobcentre-plus-procedures.html.
Cath 1:56pm is right about the mortgage protection insurance procedure.
I was unemployed for various periods in the late 70s and early and mid-80s. In those days it was less paperwork but things got a lot more fussy and bureacratic when the Tories came in. I think the original aim of the Conservative Party changes to the dole system was a laudable one - try to motivate people to find a job - but as with so many government initiatives, in the hands of local civil servants became a mere set of formulas, lies and button-presses. So it was that I learned to tell precisely the right lie for each step in the "process", in order to keep the vital housing benefit and dole money flowing. Of course, when NuLab came in, they simply added further to the bureacracy, although I did hear that there was more help in practical job searching.
The system is deeply muddied by the large number of "will never take a job under any circumstances" permament dolies, who live off crime and drugs - there really needs to be two entirely separate systems, one to deal with that lot and another, more decent one, for people who actually want a job, like the chap in that article.
There are also a mass of anti-enabling rules which prevent people taking short periods of part-time and temporary work. An incoming Tory administration would do well to review them all. For example, all those years ago, I was able to go crop picking and do short agency jobs, then sign back on the following week. I hear you can't do that now. This is the major reason why farmers for example bring in east european workers.
Another good thing the Tories did in the early 80s - the Community Programme. For those who don't remember, this was a classic "makework" piece of Keynsianism for the long-term unemployed. Some of it was rubbish but I did get some good work with charities and that helped me to get gradually into serious work and (eventually) the proper job market.
At least it makes a change from you Tories moaning about benefit scroungers and how the dole is such an easy and simple way of living!
I'd sooner starve...
Which is handy because that's what I seem to be doing at ever greater frequency.
Sixty quid a week isn't worth the utter humiliation of being condescendingly spoken to by those with less ability than yourself. The last time I found myself in a JC was a few years ago and I had to show them how to reboot their computer system! How annoying then to return jobless week after week, cap in hand, to see the same talentless fools still employed.
I'm sorry, I'm probably imprinting my anger upon the staff but the system is barely able to push teenagers into restaurants, beyond that, you're on your own... not that they won't harry you into disappearing as soon as its convenient.
He strikes me as a moaning old windbag. We all pay our bloody taxes and so if he wants to take some of mine out in the form of benefit then he should jump through as many hoops as the state demands. Its not free money!
Very amusing anonymous at 4:10.
Who seriously thinks that the Jobcentres are the place for journalists to find work in journalism? This bloke needs to get on his bike and stop moaning about his entitlements.
Cath-I know what you are saying-I never counted on the Jobcentre but after sending out hundreds of CVs and getting only a handful of interviews I was desperate and after all, Jobcentre Plus is touted by the Government as the be-all and end-all.
Andy-you really shouldn't be so churlish - it is soul destroying to be unemployed. This is what he is having problems with - not because he thinks he is too good for signing on.
I agree with Cath. And to be honest if he hadn't been in the job market for years he probaly has little clue how to market himself effectively - why was he applying for jobs where he didn't meet the criteria? Sorry Iain - it's a non story.
What did he expect a JobCenter to be like. A hot cuppa and a bun and "poor dear - I'm sure something will come up soon." He seems to be conflating the humiliation of not having been snapped up for two jobs he applied for with the bog-standard experience of attending a JobCenter interview.
But the amount is paltry. I have never been able to lower myself to "sign on" and also relied on my savings to get me through periods of unemployment. It would be better if we followed the US system where the amount and time you paid into social security determined how much and how long you could receive benefits.
Umm. Not really sure why he's so upset. What does he want? The women behind the desks to burst into tears? Rend their clothing?
It would be better if we followed the US system where the amount and time you paid into social security determined how much and how long you could receive benefits.
What ?
Unemployment has nothing to do with Social Security(gov't pension).
In my state the max is 26weeks, maximum amount about enough to pay for some food and utilities. Mortgage ? You're on your own.
Iain,
The man was clearly not being realistic from the start - apparently he knew that unemployment was soaring but also expected to find a job easily. And how can he justify getting angry at the jobcentre for phoning him up when he deosn't show up to sign on? He was the one who contacted them!
There is nothing in this story but a man's anger and shame at being unemployed. And incidentally the Daily Mail would usually write this story the other way round and complain about how easy it is to jump through the hoops and collect the benefit.
There's not many job vacancies in newspapers at the moment but there's this in Newcastle:
http://jobseekers.direct.gov.uk/detailjob.aspx?sessionid=68c631b0-eb46-4b5a-97c4-3355f0c2da35&j=NCS/34581
My advice to older jobseekers with experience but no formal qualifications is to submit a bespoke cv for the job and you could ask a Jobcentre Plus Adviser to contact the HR section on your behalf to explain things. Remember you can ask for an interview with an adviser any time.
The imprisonment of so many aristocratic and middle class suffragettes was a major factor in the improvement of Victorian prison conditions.
We are about to face a similar event in the job centres of this country. Tens of thousands of middle class people suddenly being thrown onto the dole. Answering the questions on the phone and then making the fortnightly trip to their local job centre. Each carrying a little piece of paper showing the six jobs that they have applied for over two weeks.
Then when they get into a minimum wage job they will find that wonderful 1970s British management alive and well. So thick and stupid that anyone can run rings round them. Above this management there will be exploitative employers who arrange everything to their own benefit. Huge staff turnover arranged to take maximum advantage of government initiatives and an order to take holidays when the employers want. No sick pay above the statutory minimum and minimal holiday pay.
Frankly, the chances of Thatcherism surviving the exposure of so many middle class men and women to this “real world” are negligible,. Nor will the ideas of the even more remote Chardonnay class, such as Dolly Draper and New Labour, survive this.
It will be time to tear up the old ideas and thinks of some new ones.
Josh - can I take it by your name that you are way uner 50? You need to read between the lines here. He could have done any of those jobs - any employer with suss could have seen that. What was really happening was ageism, thinly disguised. Men his age are likely never to work again no matter how skilled they are. Many employers automatically assume that age and experience mean inflexibility or stodginess. They also would rather have a younger person who they can pay less.
As for 'not know how to market himself' - that remark really demonstrates shallow, callous youth. Other than lying about your age and cutting out half of your CV, there is no way to market yourself once you are over a certain age or if there are no jobs to be had. I am not saying it is impossible but it is damn hard. And no Government has ever had a really comprehensive program to get over 50's who know how to read and write into work.
And again, Jobcentre Plus is touted as a one stop shop to get benefits AND find a job. In my experience it is only the former.
I can see the point of all humiliating questions. most of them are there becaus or tory whining about benefit scroungers.
However, the system is degrading and its IT is abysmal. The process is obsolete and savvy jobseekers who make the best use of the internet are treated like shirkers or idiots. IT's pretty standard public sector I'm afraid.
This guy has had a bad experience but sadly the system works for the socio economic bracket it mostly serves. The dole isn't really for job seekers. Its a parole system to keep tabs on the welfare underclass. Real workers in hard times are better off getting signed off by the doctor so you dont have to go and sign on. The money is better and you can just get on with trying to find work without jumping through breathtakingly stupid hoops.
The system does need modernising and reforming though. Since it is financed through national insurance, it is essentially employment protection insurance and therefore a function that could be managed entirely by the private sector and you could place some mandaotry rule for employers to sign you up to a policy if individuals do not have their own.
That way the undlerlcass who refuse work don't get a penny sincethe private sector won't dole out money to serial abusers of the system. They should be left for social enterprises and prisons.
I can't wait for all the right-wing pub bores to lose their jobs in the credit crunch.
Unlike the other scum, it won't be their irresponsibility and fecklessness. No, it'll be the TartanMcZaNuLieBore to blame, not themselves.
They're a cut above everyone else in the dole queue because it's not their fault. So they're entitled to a good moan about how Brown is keeping them on the dole.
I'm laughing my head off.
Perhaps now you can stop vilifying some of the poorest people in the country.
Poor hard done by person - a humiliating 15 minute interview every 2 weeks to get some cash, rent/mortgage paid, council tax paid, free prescriptions, tax credits if you have kids - obviously far too much for some people!
Perhaps we should chuck wheelbarrow loads of cash from the roof of the nearest multi storey car park?
David Brough
You are a nasty little man, aren't you.
And Anon 9:49 - you are not much better. First, the benefits are a lot less generous than you think. Yes, the rent is paid but only the interest on the mortage. As for Council Tax only a certain amount is paid. Try paying those on the £400 a month in which you are expected to buy food for a family, gas, electricty, water, heat, tv licence. You also have to pay for transport for job interviews. Get the picture? Here the guy is trying desparately to find a job while scum like Baby P's mother got to sit on her fat ass, collecting on all this and more, never had to attend a Jobcentre or look for work AND had a child minder provided for her for 4 days a week! Can you tell me why she needed a child minder if she wasn't working?
Lady Finchley - I am a recruiter and I completely understand how it has to work. Yes I have to reject lots of people who can of course do the work. I cannot take forward a candidate just by guessing what he/she can do when others provide evidence for it. It is only fair. This guy needs to learn how to market himself effectively and to apply for positions that he is qualified for.
Oh yes, BTW I have been unemployed before but perhaps a little more resourceful. Although clearly he is resourceful enough to make money by whinging about his experiences and getting paid for it. Sorry - no sympathy for this guy.
The Daily Mail is writing stories on those going on benefit,whatever next?
Lady Finchley -
You are quite right. Additional benefits available to claimants on JSA NI contributions-based (max 6 months) are much less than JSA income-based which is means-tested. Basically, the system discriminates against people who save instead of splurging their income. Because those wasters and the low-paid* need more help the system is designed to help them disproportionately, at the expense of the better off and better educated who are assumed to be better able to find long-term (and that is the key factor) work for themselves.
*low-paid jobs are generally of short duration.
Lady Finchley -
You are quite right. Additional benefits available to claimants on JSA NI contributions-based (max 6 months) are much less than JSA income-based which is means-tested. Basically, the system discriminates against people who save instead of splurging their income. Because those wasters and the low-paid* need more help the system is designed to help them disproportionately, at the expense of the better off and better educated who are assumed to be better able to find long-term (and that is the key factor) work for themselves.
*low-paid jobs are generally of short duration.
Josh - You still haven't said how old you are because you seem to have the arrogance of youth. Just because a person does not have a degree or qualification does not mean he cannot do the job. Skills are easily transferable and it takes a recruiter with nous to figure this out. I do not have a university degree and I have worked as a journalist, music business manager, PR person, office manager for a parish church and several MPs. Interestingly I have never found a job through a recruiter so that is very telling indeed.
Iain - we are up against a nasty, deceitful, dishonest cabal of third rate people run by a man who will lie and scheme in any way he sees fit to stay in power. He sees nothing as too low to cover up his failures. Now its so obvious to them even that their NuLab ways have failed that they have gone back to basics by employing Campbell, Mandelson etc to spin their way out of trouble. At least with Blair he was elected. Now Both Brown and Mandelson have stolen the jobs.The Stazi had nothing on this lot.
Iain - we are up against a nasty, deceitful, dishonest cabal of third rate people run by a man who will lie and scheme in any way he sees fit to stay in power. He sees nothing as too low to cover up his failures. Now its so obvious to them even that their NuLab ways have failed that they have gone back to basics by employing Campbell, Mandelson etc to spin their way out of trouble. At least with Blair he was elected. Now Both Brown and Mandelson have stolen the jobs.The Stazi had nothing on this lot.
Lady Finchley - I am 58 so think the arrogance of youth has long since died. Put yourself into my position - is it fair on the other candidates if I guess what somebody is capable of even if they don't explicitly say so? I can't take that risk, sorry. If he identifies his skills in a meaningful way then yes, interview him. I can't interview everyone so have to rely on my own expertise.
Unemployment is unpleasant but perhaps I would take him more seriously if he had been systematic in his approach and taken whatever advice and assistance is offered instead of writing such (badly written) articles for mass circulation.
Have you read the same article Josh or are you living in a different universe? Most employment 'advisors' are worse than useless as you yourself have just demonstrated. Re-read the article and you'll see that you are totally off-base.
I wonder why the online Mail on Sunday hasn't published any moderated comments on the Harry Blackwood article.
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