From a reader...
"I've just been watching St Vince Cable's conference speech. I persevered almost to the end, but turned it off in anger. I have been bamboozled, I fell for his saintly economic credentials, I even contemplated voting Lib Dem out of frustration at clear policies from the Conservatives. However, the Straight Talk interview with Andrew Neil the other night punctured a few illusions and the speech today punctured the rest. It was a classic example of envy politics. I loathe people who indulge in that, the reason I would never vote Labour. Well, now I will never vote Lib Dem either, and UKIP, while I agree with their criticisms of the EU, has no domestic policies, and Greens are a bunch of arrogant authoritarians, as exemplified by the Moonbat, and I am just sooooo frustrated! I guess the Conservatives will get my vote as the least of evils..."
I wonder how many others are thinking in this way.
The nightmare scenario for Clegg is that he gets defeated on his cutting of spending, raising of taxes ideas.
ReplyDeleteThen, many people in the public will not vote for him because they heard the words 'savage cuts' and 'no more tuition fees' without the benefit of the credibility of the boost to the public finances which those ideas would give him.
And why are the majority of Lib Dems so bloody scruffy ? Don't they realise that just reinforces media stereotypes that they are a rag-tag-and-bobtail army which are never going to govern ?
I've normally supported the Conservatives but I think I'm going to vote UKIP for the foreseeable future. I just think that unless we can change our own laws and the politicians that make them then everything else is pointless, we are overridden by the EU on nearly all worthwhile policy areas - until we change that a general election will change the faces but nothing else. It doesn't matter that UKIP have no other policies, their one and only policy is the only one that counts now.
ReplyDeleteVince Cables speech - Labour Lite. I concur with the letter writer, there's nobody left to vote for. I don't think I want my self-serving non-local Tory MP back in either ....
ReplyDeleteI think erm the politics of envy work the other way. Cable is the only credible voice when it comes to the economy and both Darling and Osborne know it. He is a real threat. I will be interested in Osborne's speech at party conference but from I can see we really have nothing to say on the economy at the moment and the Lib Dems are doing the right thing in selling Cable as their main asset.
ReplyDeleteI live in Twickenahm and Dr Cable, oh so sorry he is now known as Vince, man of the people, Cable is my MP.
ReplyDeletePleasant and personable and a good constituency MP.
However, one of his faults is that he will take on the local Lib-Dem councillors / regime in any contentitous issue with residents.
This has meant that he has refused for some time to involve himself in the contested sale of the prime Twickenham swimming pool site, on the Thames riverside, to a property company, Countryside, for them to build houses and flats. Needless to say there will be no public housing on this site.
This is the second time that the Lib-Dem council has attempted to sell the site, despite opposition from a broad band of local residents. The first occassion was to a company called Dawney Day which has gone bust in the credit crunch.
Vince doesn't represent me or many others in the borough politically, but seems unassailable. Hopefully the wool is falling from eyes and Lib-Dem supporters will take their trade somewhere sensible and vote for sensibility.
'Jask' - very true.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is that the current economic system is based upon creating an unfree market which favours some at the expense of others.
ReplyDeleteTrying to redress that balance (not matter how clumsily) then leads to charges of 'envy politics' (quite why Vince, who has a nice tidy sum garnered from such policies is supposed to be envious I don't know).
The proposals don't do anything to truly remove government granted privilege - to do that would require a truly free market (not the limited market favoured by Tories - that just helps the current powerful even more), but at least they recognise a problem and try to react to it without yet more technocratic fiddling at the margins.
There's always the BNP. Get rid of the EU, get rid of immigrants and put islam in its place.
ReplyDeleteThen, assuming that we still have general elections, one can vote for someone else. I support the above, but don't want the socialist aspects of the BNP platform.
Just to correct the misinformed views of your reader and 'Jask' - Ukip do have domestic policies - go check them out chaps!
ReplyDeleteNo referendum no vote for the Conservatives.
ReplyDeleteI wrote about "envy politics" this morning before Cables speech. The lefties won't like what I had to say, but someone has to say it. Taxing the rich is not "fair".
ReplyDeleteI suspect many people will not be inclined to vote for anyobody.
ReplyDeleteMy opinion is blogged here
ReplyDeletehttp://www.plenty2say.com
This Tory will likely vote UKIP if the Irish vote YES to Lisbon 2 and if the Czechs are then brow beaten to ratification.
ReplyDeleteA true triumph for the Conservatives and British democracy.
ReplyDeletePhrases like the "politics of envy" are interesting - powerful but meaningless. I don't particularly support the Libdems - or any party - but the idea that in times of severe financial stress the very well off should contribute proportionately more is only controversial for the very well off. The point is, they can afford it. See?
ReplyDeleteWe also have to stop spending billions on things we can't afford - again, this is blindingly obvious. Trident and Eurofigher Typhoon are both things we both don't need and can't afford, for example. Scrap them immediately - most of my friends in the military would agree wholeheartedly.
What really pisses me off about political debate in this country is that it is 'led' by full-time professional pundits, our host being a case in point. Why the heck is he any more qualified to form opinion on any of this? No offence meant, but why? All he knows about is politics.
What a turgid ramble that was. Cable has at last been exposed for what he is - a socialist. Awful, awful speech.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I couldn't help noticing how they have turned the stage blue - yes, blue - how desperately unsubtle.
'a reader'
ReplyDeletewould do well to read other sites as well.
The domestic policies of UKIP are up on their site for all to see at
http://www.ukip.org/content/ukip-policies
When you consider the Tories as the least of all evils you really have an incredibly short memory or no consciousness about the massive harms done by Thatcher in particular.
ReplyDeleteObviously the Lib Dems are an evil cult come franchise. But if you are too mean to them you'll be undermining all the tokenistic arms across the policy divide nonsense of Pickles and Cameron.
Meanwhile ... what's ex-Lib Cllr Faraz Bhatti done to get blanked in Dave's vid?
What was the name of the reader - david cameron?
ReplyDeleteCable is a pompous, over rated, third rate politician. I agree with the reader. I listened to his speech and, to me, he was playing to the Lib Dem activists who want a liaison with Labour!! His true home is the Labour Party and he should retreat there.
ReplyDeleteThe Lib Dems are a small party in vision and actua size. To be called the third party is an insult to Ukip who, I believe, have more members, but I could be wrong.
I would love to see this tiny party reduced to about three MP's after the General Election and replaced by Ukip and even, for some fun times, BNP!
Iain, do you really like the idea of people voting Tory on the grounds that they're the "least of evils"?
ReplyDeleteStripped of his media spin, Cable is just another demagogue from a tax and spend party.
ReplyDeleteCleggo's problem is that a large part of his followers are basically socialists, but he must appeal to disillusioned Tory voters to gain (or more likely to hold onto) seats.
The problem he faces is summed up in the way that even as he looks for spending cuts, many of his followers still espouse daft ideas like abolishing tuition fees.
There certainly aren't many liberals left in the LibDems.
Reader or Tory mole?
ReplyDeleteThe visiting journo (can't remember his name, but he's often on), doing the Sunday Newspapers on Al Beeb, said that Clegg thinks there's going to be a hung parliament.
ReplyDeleteQuite shrewd that, has Cleggie thought that before?
What does it matter that UKIP have no domestic policies when so much legislation emanates from outwith Westminster? Until the Conservatives undertake to do something about that, I see no point in voting for them.
ReplyDeleteI think you will find UKIP has a full range of very attractive domestic policies.
ReplyDeleteAt Iain Dale
I wonder if you intend to comment on Greg Dykes speech about the BBC being Institutionally anti democracy and change
The problem is Cable gets away with this nonsense every time he's on the BBC.
ReplyDeleteThe man is no economic genius and has made many many mistakes, yet the BBC just seem to love him.
Just as the BBC allows Brown to get away spouting nonsense (it took Frazer Nelson to skewer him over the lies about no cuts) so they allow Cable on Newsnight, Questiontime and Andrew Marr to spout nonsense without any criticism.
Jask is clearly keen to see the return of another labour govt.
ReplyDeleteWords like 'nose cut face spite' come to mind.
As far as I can see no serous proposals from Lib Dems on reducing the deficit and more to the point building up a surplus to pay of the national debt.
I guess none of us really like to think about where we are right now but the reality is truly horrendous. We are impoverished and destitute.
The LibDem conference (admittedly from what little I have seen of it) seems utterly disastrous. Clegg was not wearing a green donkey jacket but he might as well have been.
In the real world Sterling has fallen and according to the BoE may stay that way "due to an increased focus on Britain's economic imbalances".
"the financial crisis may have led overseas investors to reassess their willingness or ability to purchase sterling assets and thereby finance the UK trade deficit"
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/64bc4542-a68f-11de-bd14-00144feabdc0.html
Sod all these lefty 'dividing lines' whats needed are solutions.
Cable is my local "representative", he sucks as an MP so be warned , if he ever gets a position of power he will be Brown MK2.
ReplyDeleteFirst thing that the Lib-Dems did when they got into power around here was vote themselves a pay rise..
Seriously, Iain, what's the alternative?
ReplyDeleteRumours are that gorgeous George Osborne is planning a 25% VAT rate.
Is ripping even more money from the poor by raising regressive sales taxes really the best way to plug gap?
Spending cuts and asset sales alone won't be enough - there have to be tax increases. The difference between the parties will be deciding who the burden falls on.
Radio 5's debate this morning came from the LD conference, and I endured as much as I could.
ReplyDeleteThen in sheer desperation I was driven to seek some input with intellectual consistency.
I found it - with the Teletubbies.
Alan Douglas
Eng Dems ?
ReplyDelete'I wonder how many others are thinking in this way.'
ReplyDeleteI'd put it at about 585,000
(I think I've been reading PoliticalBetting too much.)
he is a con who gets away with it with our very strange press,who are about as rudderless as the libdems.
ReplyDeletethe libs are in real trouble,which is why they are flip flopping around all over the place.
i personally think they will loose many more seats than they think.
cable is a disgrace
The trouble with The Liberal Democrats is not that their policies are about "envy". It is the fact that, if you keep voting for them, The Labour Party get in. Hee! Hee! Hee!
ReplyDeleteSadly, from what I gather, the politics of envy are in vogue at the moment - and are particularly popular with the lower middle classes. The very people who, paradoxically, we need to vote Conservative in 2010. Mind you, I can talk. I haven't supported the Conservatives since 1992. However, some good news, I reside in this key marginal constituency and I am thinking of returning to the fold after eighteen years of sitting on my hands. My reasoning here - the smell of a Labour Government is a bit like the smell of your hands after you have sat on them for eighteen years. Hee! Hee! Hee!
I also like David Cameron and I am taken by him. A proper leader, a most impressive leader of men. I was an Officer in the Army and I know leadership when I see it. For Brown is just this born follower - a bit like Baldrick. Mind you, my reasons for voting Conservative are a bit selfish. For I too am concerned about this politics of envy and, in particular, its impact on my children. For what is wrong with being born wealthy and, dare I say it, privileged. I just don't get it. I, and they, have never done anything to anybody.
Good blog by the way. Interesting.
Keep it up. Hee! Hee! Hee!
Are these not enough UKIP policies for you?•UKIP will leave the political EU and trade globally and freely. We will re-embrace today’s fast-growing Commonwealth and we will encourage UK manufacturing so that we make things again.
ReplyDelete•We will freeze immigration for five years, speed up deportation of up to a million illegal immigrants by tripling the numbers engaged in deportations, and have ‘no home no visa’ work permits to ease the housing crisis.
•We will have a grammar school in every town. We will restore standards of education and improve skills training. Student grants will replace student loans.
•We will radically reform the working of the NHS with an Insurance Fund, whilst upholding the ‘free at the point of care’ principles. We will bring back matrons and have locally run, clean hospitals.
•We will give people the vote on policing priorities, go back to proper beat policing and scrap the Human Rights Act. We will have sentences that mean what they say.
•We will take 4.5 million people out of tax with a simple Flat Tax (with National Insurance) starting at £10,000. We will scrap Inheritance Tax, not just reform it and cut corporation taxes.
•We will say No to green taxes and wind farms. To avert a major energy crisis, we will go for new nuclear power plants on the same existing site facilities and for clean coal. We will reduce pollution and encourage recycling.
•We will make welfare simpler and fairer, introduce ‘workfare’ to get people back to work, and a new citizens pension and private pensions scheme insurance.
•We will support our armed forces with more spending on equipment, military homes and medical care. We will save our threatened warships and add 25,000 more troops.
•We will be fair to England, with an English Parliament of English MPs at Westminster. We will replace assembly members like MSPs with MPs. And we will promote referenda at local and national levels.
•We will make customer satisfaction number one for rail firms – not cost cutting and will look seriously at reopening some rail lines that Beeching closed. We will make foreign lorries pay for British roads with a ‘Britdisc’ – and we will stop persecuting motorists.
•Last, but never least, we will bring in fair prices and fair competition for our suffering farmers, and restore traditional British fishing and territorial waters.
@Jask
ReplyDeleteDid some digging and found some UKIP policy here.
http://www.ukip.org/content/ukip-policies/726-ukip-policies-in-brief-2009
As for the Lib Dems I can only recomend a reader taking a look at 'the daily mash' today.
It neatly sums up the so called Liberals in a few paragraphs.
Didn't listen to the speech. That nasal whine is unbearable over an extended period.
ReplyDeleteI was, however, struck by the essential dishonesty of the presentation of the "mansion tax".
The name itself is a petty piece of spin, and scarcely accurate for many of the dwellings which would be caught in the net, but the suggestion (scarcely challenged by interviewers) that it will fund the proposed raising of income tax thresholds is mendacity on a Brownian scale.
Realistically, it would raise somewhere between three and five percent of the money required.
Vince the Cable must have felt ambushed by Andrew Neil on straight talk. Cable used to be Neil's tutor when Neil was at university and they are very chatty on 'The Daily Politics'.
ReplyDeleteAndrew Neil give him a right going over. Full of contradictions and jumping on the bandwagon.
I was starting to think that Andrew Neil was becoming Cable's cheer-leader.
I too had been taken in by all the Vince worshipping lately. Andrew Neil brought him down to earth.
Jask,
ReplyDeleteHere's a conundrum for you though. Voting UKIP will achieve one thing, and one thing only, increasinging the chance of putting the rabid eurostatists of Libdems or Labour into your constituency at the expense of the only party who might have the chance to do something about it.
Think again batman.
He Red Vince really... but his boss is Blue Clegg.
ReplyDeleteThe Fib Dems are going to have a hard time selling this on the doorsteps - especially the transfer of vast wealth from where many of the Lib Dem MPs are in the South of England to Labour voting North.
Oh hold on a minute .... that fits in with Blue Clegg's plan to replace Labour as the party representing state dependency.
Its the old bribe the soviet areas of public funded existence with some of the last wealth not in the states control plan.
Here's the picture that speaks a thousand words about the Lib dums.
ReplyDeletehttp://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/files/2009/09/politics-libdems-443x288.jpg
Envy politics?
ReplyDeleteMaybe. Clearly not a political winner, for sure, but...
- This country is a lot more screwed fiscally than any politician has yet had the honesty to admit, and the spending cuts/tax rises that are required are so enormous that it's hard to believe any future government (Tory or whoever) will have the balls to push them through without a bond market crisis to push things along. Problem with that is that the banks are nowhere near being out of the woods yet, so they'll need more money from the hard-pressed taxpayer too.
- A pure tax on land values (which is what Vince's proposal very nearly is) is one of the most sensible taxes you can think of. Why? Because it doesn't disincentivise any kind of economic activity, unlike taxes on income or expenditure, and, indeed, leads to a more efficient use of resources - grannies alone in eight bedroom houses are given a clear signal that they should think about moving to a bungalow
- How dare I? Very easily - there are families in this country, where both parents have good jobs, but who can't afford a house. While members of the most selfish generation ever, the post-war one that is (not their parents, who were the best ever, apart from spoiling their kids), regard it as their entitlement to live in a big house with 3 or 4 empty rooms
- In short, if we need to raise a billion, and we DO need to raise lots of them, a tax on house values is a very very good idea
- Also a good idea from Vince is raising the personal allowance to £10k, but we can't afford it
- Buy gold, tinned fruit and a shotgun, 'cause there's a very good chance that things are going to go pear-shaped (and I am only being very slightly alarmist)
Some apt comments on Guido's blog on the subject:
ReplyDeletei) First they came for the people with £1m homes, but I did not own one so said nothing.
ii)Vince seems to think poor families are hard working and rich families are lazy.
In response to the remark that UKIP are lacking policies, here is the policy summary from the UKIP website:
.
* UKIP will leave the political EU and trade globally and freely. We will re-embrace today’s fast-growing Commonwealth and we will encourage UK manufacturing so that we make things again.
* We will freeze immigration for five years, speed up deportation of up to a million illegal immigrants by tripling the numbers engaged in deportations, and have ‘no home no visa’ work permits to ease the housing crisis.
* We will have a grammar school in every town. We will restore standards of education and improve skills training. Student grants will replace student loans.
* We will radically reform the working of the NHS with an Insurance Fund, whilst upholding the ‘free at the point of care’ principles. We will bring back matrons and have locally run, clean hospitals.
* We will give people the vote on policing priorities, go back to proper beat policing and scrap the Human Rights Act. We will have sentences that mean what they say.
* We will take 4.5 million people out of tax with a simple Flat Tax (with National Insurance) starting at £10,000. We will scrap Inheritance Tax, not just reform it and cut corporation taxes.
* We will say No to green taxes and wind farms. To avert a major energy crisis, we will go for new nuclear power plants on the same existing site facilities and for clean coal. We will reduce pollution and encourage recycling.
* We will make welfare simpler and fairer, introduce ‘workfare’ to get people back to work, and a new citizens pension and private pensions scheme insurance.
* We will support our armed forces with more spending on equipment, military homes and medical care. We will save our threatened warships and add 25,000 more troops.
* We will be fair to England, with an English Parliament of English MPs at Westminster. We will replace assembly members like MSPs with MPs. And we will promote referenda at local and national levels.
* We will make customer satisfaction number one for rail firms – not cost cutting and will look seriously at reopening some rail lines that Beeching closed. We will make foreign lorries pay for British roads with a ‘Britdisc’ – and we will stop persecuting motorists.
* Last, but never least, we will bring in fair prices and fair competition for our suffering farmers, and restore traditional British fishing and territorial waters.
A question for you,
ReplyDeleteWhy vote for the cons whenas you said they are the lesser of the political parties evils. why not show the politicians what you think of them generally, by voting but by spoiling the ballot paper
Anon 6:33pm said: "Voting UKIP will achieve one thing, and one thing only, increasing the chance of putting the rabid eurostatists of Libdems or Labour into your constituency at the expense of the only party who might have the chance to do something about it."
ReplyDeleteThe assumption that Anon makes is that the Cameron Tories will do something about the EU. No, they won't. Because they can't.
The mistake they make is to promise not to leave the EU. Yet paradoxically it is only by threatening to leave the EU, that Cameron would have any leverage with the EU. Otherwise the EU will call his bluff and tell him to take a walk - why should 26 other countries bow to what Cameron wants? He has no stick and no carrot. He will therefore fail.
Consequently voting Tory is pointless if you want your own country back.
"Here's a conundrum for you though. Voting UKIP will achieve one thing, and one thing only, increasinging the chance of putting the rabid eurostatists of Libdems or Labour into your constituency at the expense of the only party who might have the chance to do something about it."
ReplyDeleteHere's another conundrum for you: voting Tory will achieve one thing, and one thing only, increasinging the chance of putting the rabid eurostatists of the conservatives into your constituency.
To those above who say that my vote for UKIP (rather than the Conservatives) will put Labour in - would that my vote were so important! I'm sorry, only UKIP are addressing the problem, my point is that it doesn't matter much who gets in if Westminster is the equivalent of a local council. If the only questions left for the UK Gov are the equivalent of "how the bins are collected" then we are no longer a country are we? I want my Government to be answerable to me at the ballot box. I want to know that when I vote I can (with others) get rid of the politicians I don't like. What is the point of all this voting if the EU makes all the rules and we just have to lump it? What sort of democracy is that? I'd vote for the conservatives if they had anything positive to say on this but they don;t seem to have anything much to say on the EU at all.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the UKIP links.
Andrew Cooper appears to be under the delusion that those living in houses of a value in excess of £1m are ipso facto 'very well off'. In terms of their assets this may well be so, but it certainly does not follow from this that they would be able to pay the proposed annual levy.
ReplyDeleteThe tag 'mansion tax' is offensive to substantial swathes of the electorate, especially in London and the south east, where even modest terrace houses may be valued at figures well in excess of £1m.
As "the reader" whose comment is the subject of Iain's post, I should like to make a small correction, even apology, to those commenters who point out that UKIP has domestic policies. I should not have said "no domestic policies", I should have said "no credible domestic policies".
ReplyDeleteIt is all "we will..." do this & that, but no indication of HOW. For instance, "we will restore a grammar school in every town". Great, I couldn't like it more, but HOW against the combined weight of LEA's utterly opposed to it?
I note with some amusement that no commenter has challenged my view of Greens!
Here in Australia we acknowledge that someone can be 'asset rich' but 'income poor'.
ReplyDeleteUsually it refers to primary producers especially in times of drought - land is plentiful and on paper worth a lot. But in practical terms it is worthless because before you can sell you need someone who can buy.
I find the insensitive comments that these people can just sell or contract futher debts to meet present expenses smells just a little too much of left wing envy.
If I can't have it you can't! I believe Faye Welden had it right when she said much left wing policy is borne from the suspicion that somewhere someone is enjoying themselves and it has to stop!
Chris Paul -
ReplyDelete'When you consider the Tories as the least of all evils you really have an incredibly short memory or no consciousness about the massive harms done by Thatcher in particular'
On the contrary I remember only too well why Thatcher got into power:
1. I could not buy my preferred newspaper for a year in 1977(union on strike) Nor could I have an alternative one. Why? The unions would not allow it,so the newsagent had to comply.
2. Annual winter strikes by the miners and electricity workers.
3. 3 day working weeks
4. Rubbish not collected for months
5. Dead bodies piling up in the mortuaries.
6. 25% inflation
7. TV finishing at 1030 to conserve power.
Some of these may not appear big issues in the grand scheme of things but boy did each one add a little piece to the pissed off factor for most of the population.
Thatcher dealt with that.
What disrupts our daily lives and 'harms' us does matter.
Whoever gets elected would do well to remember that and govern accordingly.
When we reach a disgust threshold with a government,they get kicked out. That's why Thatcher got in.That's why Blair got in. That's why Labour will go.
The EU is a domestic policy issue. They are ruling in areas that should rightly be the competence of our national parliament.
ReplyDeleteUKIPs policy: We will give people the vote on policing priorities, go back to proper beat policing and scrap the Human Rights Act.
ReplyDeleteOK, quick review of the HRA:
* the right to life
* freedom from torture and degrading treatment
* freedom from slavery and forced labour
* the right to liberty
* the right to a fair trial
* the right not to be punished for something that wasn't a crime when you did it
* the right to respect for private and family life
* freedom of thought, conscience and religion, and freedom to express your beliefs
* freedom of expression
* freedom of assembly and association
* the right to marry and to start a family
* the right not to be discriminated against in respect of these rights and freedoms
* the right to peaceful enjoyment of your property
* the right to an education
* the right to participate in free elections
* the right not to be subjected to the death penalty
Would anyone really want to vote for a party that wants to abolish these most fundamental of rights? Spare me the nonsense and propoganda championed by the Daily Mail et al that it’s all just pointless EU bur. The HRA is not some lefty, Guardianista, EU-driven nonsense. It guarantees some pretty basic rights. Are we really saying we want to get rid of this?
Talk about dim. We had all these rights before the HRA.
ReplyDelete