Imagine it, you're invited to a wedding and you then find out that it's a wedding where women are in one room and men are in the other. What do you do? Go along with it and bid farewell to your partner for the duration, or leave? Labour MP Jim Fitzpatrick decided to leave after he was told while attending a muslim wedding in the East End of London that he would be split up from his wife.
He explains what happened an an interview with the Today Programme HERE.
This really is quite a moral dilemma. Do you risk offending your hosts, or do you go along with what is described as a bit of muslim tradition?
you should respect the culture and respect the tradition...but it's an individual choice. big deal.
ReplyDeletedefend the nhs please!
I heard the interview this morning, and thought he gave a reasoned and reasonable justification for his decision. He would appear to have handled it with considerable subtlety and grace. It's nobody's business but his own. It's a non-story. It's August.
ReplyDeleteBetter get used to it. British society is going to be transformed, shops will close 5 times a day for prayers etc. Impossible to stop this now. And many restrictions on (alcohol) licensing hours.
ReplyDeleteThis is a brilliant story, absolutely marvellous. Doesn't it reflect badly that he didn't have the wit to read up beforehand? And to kick off at a wedding - well, few votes gone there methinks - it's my job to get blottoed and upset the bride, not some ejeet MP on a personal crusade on their most important day!?!?!
ReplyDeleteWV: Mulers (me & the other ushers at about 7pm?)
What is more interesting is why he was there at all? By his own account he has attended hundreds of Muslim weddings. Either he has hundreds of close personal Muslim friends (unlikely) or he is going to be seen' and court the ethnic vote - hardly the best reason to attend a weeding. I hope that he has not put the (presumed) hundreds of wedding presents on expenses.
ReplyDeleteDilemma? Not a dilemma for anyone with a shred of a personal moral code. Participate in something you find offensive, or risk offending the offender? No contest. Nice to see a politician with a functioning moral compass.
ReplyDeleteHis host should have explained the convention beforehand to a non muslim guest. Not all muslim weddings are organised that way.
ReplyDeleteThe MP was entitled to walk out, but he should have shrugged and gone along with it.
I think the key to this story is that he went straighr to the press, trying to get brownie points from the Daily Mail.
I went to a jewish wedding years ago. I can't remember, but my wife thinks we were segregated there.
It wouldn't have bothered me.
I know Jim (was his agent in 2001) and I'm baffled by this.
ReplyDeleteI agree with those that say that he should have been aware of the type of wedding he was attending.
He's handed George Galloway the constituency on a plate.
Anon @ 1047 - if you're going to make such stupid and cowardly comments, do so with a name/ID.
ReplyDeleteWould he insist his wife sat with him in a Hindu/Sikh temple? Or would he have sat on the ladies side?
ReplyDeleteMr Dale,
ReplyDeleteMoral dilemma?
Nothing of the sort.
Jim Fitzpatrick is electioneering. George Galloway is chewing at his ankles, and he needs to shore up the white, working class vote in the constituency.
What better way than a bit of Muslim bashing?
The Muslim attitude to women seems overall to be fairly primitive and controlling, although I have been to a Catholic Mass (in the Basque country) where women by custom sat in an upper gallery, away from the men.
ReplyDeletePresumably they don't also have 'segregated honeymoons'? Not much fun if so....
I went to a Sikh wedding once (my wife was the teacher of the groom's brother). Great experience, fab food and music, great people (and the bride was fantastically beautiful). We were separated for the actual ceremony, although we remained in the same room. I think I might have gone along with being in separate rooms at a Muslim wedding - after all, whose wedding is it? Not the guests'!
ReplyDeleteMoral dilemma, nothing of the sort. Do not attend full stop.
ReplyDeleteThe Muslim religion is stuck with the values of the Middle Ages.
Well that's one MP who won't be coming to dinner, or if he does, he can withdraw with the ladies while the men hit the port and cigars.
ReplyDeleteShould I be invited to the wedding of people of a different faith from my own, I should enquire beforehand what the form was, what was expected of me, etc.
ReplyDeleteShame he didn't have the courtesy to do this.
Never heard of the man, but as other posters have said, sounds like electioneering to me..........
Of course he should have stayed. If he were in the slightest bit culturally aware, he would have known what would potentially happen. If being split up is such an issue, the dilema is whether or not to accept the invitation. It only becomes 'moral' when choosing whether or not to be rude by leaving!
ReplyDeleteIf he/ his wife was unhappy then by all means they could make their excuses and leave early.
ReplyDeleteIf he is concerned about certain developments in local mosques (or for that matter any other community / religious groups) then as the local MP he can and should speak up.
What seems wrong is the way he has expolited some unsuspecting couple's wedding for his own political purposes which is incredibly rude.
I presume this is a clumsy attempt to keep Labour's white working class left wing on side at at time when worryingly large numbers of them seem to be flirting with the BNP.
It's a tradition in some Haredi Jewish circles as well.
ReplyDeleteIn this case he was just rude.
Wot...no comment on Dan "superman" Hannan...but then again it is the big issue of the day and it is slightly embarrassing.
ReplyDeleteWhy does he attend two Muslim weddings a week? In no way is an MP obliged to go round attending the weddings of his constituents. I wonder if he attends non-Muslim weddings as well or does he just devote a disproportionate amount of time to Muslims.
ReplyDeleteI don’t do religious ceremonies - full stop. Saves a lot of complications and embarrassment all round.
ReplyDeleteDitto to Canvas. Defend the NHS and put some backbone into our ****** ambassador who has so far been pusillanimous.
There is an element of "Don't you know who I am" about this incident. And can he and his wife really not bear to be parted for a short while? Don't they ever do anything separately? What ninnies!
ReplyDelete(WV "torys" - do I get a prize?)
Aside from from the moral situation, it does not say much for the judgment of the minister. Being invited is to give the family status, nothing to do with the MP being popular or him getting votes. Once he accepted one wedding he was on a slippery slope for the rest. He should have had the discipline to demarcate between work and private life. What a tw**.
ReplyDeletePete-s
This isn't "Muslim" but Mediaeval "culture" and/or "Islamist".
ReplyDeleteI think he is right to leave even if he went alone.
The question, as put by you Iain, suggests that a mutual decision after brief discussion is not option (a) perhaps?
ReplyDeleteIn practice my personal feelings would partly depend on how we both felt at the time, can see no hard and fast rule.
The government of this country needs to decide whether it wants either to allow religions to do whatever they like or to end practices that may be considered discriminatory or otherwise "offensive" to some modern sensibilities.
ReplyDeleteGiven that the government seems perfectly happy to permit first cousin marriage, ritual slaughter of animals and a host of other things that many of us find "offensive", I can only assume that it has chosen to allow minorities cultures to do pretty much what they like.
In which case people who attend other cultures' weddings should put up with the way in which those weddings are conducted and not walk out in faux outrage. How would we react if a veil-clad Muslim woman walked out of a Christian wedding on the grounds that there was too much cleavage on display?
If he'd attended a Jewish wedding of only moderately orthodox attitude, the sexes would have been separated in the synagogue.
ReplyDeleteAny wedding guest should feel honoured that s/he's been invited - don't like the customs, don't accept the invitation.
As Fitzpatrick seems not to have any manners perhaps he should have made discreet enquiries beforehand. And maybe his Political Advisors (or, as they are called nowadays,
ReplyDeleteCivil Servants) should have briefed him properly prior to acceptance of the invitation.
Does he take this stance when invited to an Orthodox Jewish synagogue?
Liam: "Anon @ 1047 - if you're going to make such stupid and cowardly comments, do so with a name/ID."
ReplyDeleteGo watch "Muslim demographics" on Youtube - and wipe the froth off your mouth.
(I'm not the first anon.)
Meanwhile I can't help wondering what the hosts would have done with Iain & partner - except that I suspect they wouldn't have been invited....
I'm with the Archbishop on this or is he with me on this bearing in mind I was one of the first to blog about Mr Fitzpatrick.
ReplyDeleteKeen to find out Jim's views on segregsation at Hen & Stag nights
Non-story. Men and women are segregated in synagogue; that would be no reason to refuse an invitation to one in your constituency.
ReplyDeleteMost guys I know would relish the chance for a couple of hours at the bar sans wife. Mind you, most weddings I go to have a bar.
"...if he knew anything about his constituents he should have anticipated it."
ReplyDeleteCan't anyone read these days?
He states quite clearly, in every report of this that I've read, that this has not happened at any of the other Muslim functions he has attended, and is a sign of the takeover of this particular Muslim centre by hardliners.
You're a vegetarian, but there's no vegetarian food offered - do you eat the big bloody steak sitting in front of you?
ReplyDeleteSome things are non-negotiable, regardless of 'culture'.
If attending over a hundred 'dry' weddings is part of an urban MP's job description, count me out. Or maybe a discreet hip flask/visit to Gents sees him through the ordeal?
ReplyDeleteit's really NOT a dilemma.
ReplyDeletewhat if they were segregating the straights and the gays? or the moslems and the jews? would you go along with that?
(or, let me guess, were there no jews nor gays invited)
His constituency is being split at the next election. I haven't checked the division, but if it now includes the Isle of Dogs, this now has 3 Tory councillors, after nearly a century of being a Labour safe seat. I suspect he is playing to the perceived (rightly or wrongly) predudices of the right wing vote. Otherwise why comment publicly abut a personal decision at a private wedding?
ReplyDeleteHow utterly selfish, arrogant and rude.
ReplyDeleteThis MP clearly doesn't believe in freedom of expression or tolerance.
This was not a strip show, it was a couples wedding. No law was being broken so the polite thing to do is maintain a dignified silence if your sensibilities are offended not to walk out.
What an arse
"If attending over a hundred 'dry' weddings is part of an urban MP's job description, count me out. Or maybe a discreet hip flask/visit to Gents sees him through the ordeal?"
ReplyDeleteThere's a classic 'Yes Minister' episode along these lines, isn't there?
I wonder if he takes the same line on stag parties? Prat.
ReplyDeleteOn a point of order this would have been because of the 'culture' of the individuals concerned and not because of Islam per se.
ReplyDeleteAs far as I am aware no where in the Koran does it say that men and women must be seperated at weddings. As an aside alcohol isn't specifically banned in the Koran either.
As an example women aren't supposed to go out in public in Saudi with a man that they can marry - the only exception being a driver - where as it is perfectly acceptable in the Emirates and Bahrain.
These are different interpretations of the Koran and The Prophet Mohammad's (peace be up on him) teachings.
I think he has demonstrated utter arrogance in the way he has behaved and shown a complete lack of respect towards the individuals concerned and their beliefs.
JuliaM
ReplyDelete"Can't anyone read these days?
He states quite clearly, in every report of this that I've read, that this has not happened at any of the other Muslim functions he has attended, and is a sign of the takeover of this particular Muslim centre by hardliners."
He said on radio that he has attended two other segregated Muslim weddings in the past... so what was so different about this one?
Anon.
ReplyDeleteWould a Muslim woman who has been forced to wear a burka ever be allowed to go to a Christian wedding?
It's a Muslim wedding. WTF was he expecting? Naked twister?
ReplyDeleteWhat a tool.
AJ
I would agree. If you go to a wedding you need to be willing to obey the customs of the wedding party.
ReplyDeleteYes it was a muslim wedding but do you have to do as teh ysay As a athiest I go to christian weddigns and don't sing along with the hymns as I don't believe in them , would it have been blasphamous for him to have sat with his wife, if not i think he was right
ReplyDelete