Fascist is a word which is thrown around a lot by the left, mostly by people who haven't got a clue what the word means. They used to call me a 'fascist' at university. So it's somewhat ironic that a group called Unite Against Fascism uses fascist methods to shout down a press conference of a man who has just been elected by several hundred thousand people in a democratic election. That's what happened to Nick Griffin this morning. I can't abide what Griffin stands for and abhor his divisive rantings. But I would defend his right to utter them. That's what happens in a free, democratic society - we may not agree with what someone says but we will defend to the death their right to say it. Except Unite Against Fascism don't quite see it that way. They are the kind of people who believe in 'no platform' for people they disagree with. One of UAF's members actually said on TV today: " I believe in freedom of speech for everybody but fascists."
David Cameron has come in for some flak for signing up to their aims when they were formed in 2004. I haven't seen their aims and objectives, but no doubt most reasonable people would agree to sign up to a campaign against fascism - but when it takes the form of denying free speech, that's where lovers of democracy must bow out. On today's evidence Unite Against Fascism is nothing but a left wing front organisation whose belief in democracy is as skin deep as the people they purport to campaign against.
Yeah Iain, but it was bloody good seeing him get a kicking that his own thugs like to dish out to those who 'don't fit' their simplistic and ill-educated view of life.
ReplyDeleteYour orientation would be a prime target for them.
And I for one, would use more than just eggs to defend you if that happened.
I agree with freedom of speech but not for parties who seek to deny it to others.
Oh that's clever > Iain, let's make Nick Griffin a 'victim'. Let's all feel sorry for him? Don't go down that path.
ReplyDeleteHe apparently denies the holocaust existed. Ignorant and hateful.
Iain exactly what I thought of them when I saw this on the news. They can't abide democracy or freedom of speech.
ReplyDeleteGriffin et al are repellent. But so is the use of violence as a substitute for debate. In no constitutional state is violent conduct considered free speech. What was shown on the TV was an affray. The ultimate hecklers' veto. All this means is that Griffin will have to have a police escort , on the taxpayer. Great.
ReplyDeleteAgreed
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately if we are not careful UAF and BNP will now try to raise the temperature to gain more publicity and polarise the voters to win more support.
Mandelson and co instead of keeping things cool will seek short-term politcal advantage and throw oil on the fire.
These twats did themselves no favours by pelting someone with eggs, which counts as assault and is thug-like, and gives the BNP plenty of ammo for future confrontations.
ReplyDeleteThey have shot themselves in the foot by generating sympathy for the BNP. Nice one, guys.
Peaceful protests, peaceful. Get the peaceful bit? I know unionists are a little heated on this debate, but don't become what you hate. You will become even worse, as you used to stand for something better. Not now, you've let your side down.
Let Griffin fight back against the egg thrower just like John Prescott did. Let the hateful man fight his own battles.
ReplyDeleteThis took place outside Parliament, where were the police?
ReplyDeleteOf course, if NG et al really were vicious thugs in any absolute sense, this bunch wouldn't have the balls to chuck stuff at them.
ReplyDeleteThey won't be throwing eggs at Martin Mcguinness or Gerry Adams, of that you can be sure.
But besides being cowardly, they're politically inept, as this sort of stuff is entirely counter-productive.
See this screen snatch from the Sky News website this afternoon in which they confused Nick Clegg with Nick Griffin:
ReplyDeletehttp://listeningblogger.blogspot.com/2009/06/nick-thingummy-pelted-with-eggs.html
Silent hunter
ReplyDeletesince you don't agree with freedom of speech for those who deny it to others, by your own definition you you would deny yourself the right to express your own views.
Curious
Exactly what I have said! I agree.
ReplyDeleteIn fact, I agree with pretty much all you've said on the BNP, from this to the no platforming of the party.
You're bang on.
Well said Iain - my view precisely when I saw the objectionable, inarticulate yob interviewed on Channel 4 news.
ReplyDeleteWhat this ignorant rabble don't seem to realise is that the more the BNP are attacked and prevented from speaking, the more some voters and elements of society will be attracted to them.
This country practices free speech and - even if you dislike the BNP's policies (I do) they have a right to voice them. The only way they will be defeated is if they are included in political debate and shown up for the bigots they are.
The problem has been the shutting down of any debate on the issues the BNP espouse - which, like it or not, are important to some sections of the community. The mainstream parties (principally Labour) have either ignored or prevented discussion on these subjects for years, which has fuelled the fire the BNP has lit.
I was disgusted at the voilent, fascist behaviour of these so-called anti-fascists.
ReplyDeleteLets never forget that the Labour government wined and dined IRA murderers and gave them places in Westminster. I didn't see any anti-fascists looking even slightly cross at that time. Nor did I see them speaking out against the extremists who threatened to kill us all.
This sick tribe of thugs made Griffin look a martyr and ensures a few more votes will go their way.
Disgusting. Even the police stood by and let it happen. The same police who protected the extremists, no doubt.
Glad I'm not the only one who felt that taking direct action against an admittedly unpleasant organisation doesn't demonstrate a good understanding or respect of the freedoms of speech and assembly. Also, it's meant another day of having Mr Griffin and the BNP in all the headlines, which doesn't exactly play well to the UAF's aims (or my sense of taste) either. Well met, Mr Dale.
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely Iain. UAF has done the BNP an enormous favour today. It's given them positive publicity.
ReplyDeleteAt least Sky News had footage of one of the BNP's thugs violently shoving a small woman out of the way. Everyone else only saw UAF thuggery.
"Oh that's clever > Iain, let's make Nick Griffin a 'victim'. Let's all feel sorry for him? Don't go down that path."
ReplyDeleteBut that's exactly what UAF have done through their violent suppression of free speech. Thanks, UAF! Next time, try not to spend our tax money promoting the BNP.
"He apparently denies the holocaust existed. Ignorant and hateful."
He turned me into a newt!
Silent Hunter - what evidence do you have of the BNP giving out 'kickings' to those who don't fit their 'simplistic view of life'? This is nonsense.
ReplyDeleteCanvas - Griffin does not deny the Holocaust. For confirmation of this, listen to what he said on The Daily Politics a fortnight ago.
Iain - I agree with much of what you have written. UAF are a truly horrible organisation and utterly blinkered. But what do you abhor about the BNP? I don't know about you but I think the party's policies on immigration are sensible and just (for those ready to criticise me here, perhaps go and read exactly what those policies are first), and in tune with most sensible people's thinkings, but it's their economic policies I have a problem with: they are deeply ignorant socialist policies the like of which Mrs Thatcher thankfully swept away.
If the BNP adopted sensible free market policies they could well be the perfect party.
Lastly, can I just bemoan the fact that mass immigration created the BNP - and I wish neither had happened - and Heath taking us into the corrupt, wasteful and undemocratic Europe created UKIP etc - and I wish neither had happened either. If these insane 20th century policy decisions had not been taken then we would have a strong, united Tory party that would still be the world's greatest political party. It is these things that have changed the country and the Tory party, and weakened it, forever; Enoch Powell predicted it all too accurately.
anon @ 10:12 > Iain can pick a better battle than defending Nick Griffin's rights. Griffin should fight his own battles, with little sympathy.
ReplyDeleteThe Entire UK media, have accsess, should they choose to view it, to the the European press articles and Portuguese Police Files about the McCann case.
ReplyDeleteEvery MP in the HoC has been sent a copy of Tony Bennetts book "What Really Happened to Madeleine McCann ?"
Goncalo Amaral's book "Truth of the Lie" is available in most of Europe.
But the UK Media and Establishment, including HM.Gov; still try to "parrot" the line that the Saint's of Rothely are without stain.
The BIG LIE, formulated and published by Clarence(Goebbels) Mitchell formerly of the C.O.I. M.M.U.
Even that Gov. stooge Kevin Maguire is cracking sick jokes about the case with Hanover Comms, but the sham continues.
If your all so concerened about free speech, why doesn't someone with a bit of influence, tell the TRUTH get these shysters into a Court of Law.
We Know the BBC, SKY, and most of the papers have told deliberate lies about the case, we know they twist the details when they get some.
So Ian, next time your on telly doing the Press reviews and another of Mitchells propaganda tales are featured, point it out please.
Iain! Call me stupid but I didn’t know Cameron was a UAF supporter & it makes me sick. The way the UAF carried on made my blood boil.
ReplyDeleteI have posted this on Conhome with a heavy heart!
do you know what makes me feel the most anger & gives me a sick feeling to my stomach! Cameron supporting a bunch of left wing bully boy thugs, PLEASE tell me it isn’t true, I have heard it From Nick Griffin tonight on SKY & a list of UAF supporters is starting to circulate the web & Cameron is on it!
I also find out that these thugs get tax payers support, unbelievably.
Ok I voted BNP as a protest vote in the EU but hey! I’ve been blogging the Tory cause religiously for over three years & have been a life long Tory supporter so after all the expenses scandal, etc, etc, I’m entitled to make a protest vote that will pee off the lefties the most, am I not?
If it turns out that Cameron is a supporter of these no better than left wing Nazi style bully boys I will have to consider if I will ever be able to blog the Tory cause ever again, vote for the Tories ever again & decide if my talents are best served helping a party that will pee Cameron off the most!
I am in a very unhappy place right now :o(
SO Iain, I’m not one to ask for advise but I really am in a predicament!
The UAF's actions constitute an assault on democracy.
ReplyDeleteAlthough, it is confusing to now hear Iain defend Griffin (to an extent) having propagated a blatant lie about the man just yesterday - I refer to when he repeatedly claimed that Griffin stated that he would not represent his black and Asian constitutents.
It is an absolute outrage that taxpayer's money is now being handed out to these hate-filled, aggressive Communists who have no democratic mandate whatsoever.
If they're so much better than the BNP then why don't they stand against the party at the next election?
Correct Iain, UAF are fascists of the worst kind. What we saw today was an anti democratic, violent thuggish attempt to stop an elected MEP (with many voters) from being able to be questioned by the press. The Unite are undemocratic thugs and are frankly silly. I heard one of their mouthpieces saying that because only 8.3% of people voted for them the BNP are not representative of voters? Well, they came in higher in the polls than of the Greens, so these have no mandate either according to them. Labour has no mandate then to represent people in the SW as they only had a vote turn out of 8%.
ReplyDeleteUnite are nothing but rabble rousers who are intent on stopping democracy, free speech and people having a vote, something the Ultra left wing are happy with unless its for a Stalinist type vote of one party with one outcome.
Let the BNP be heard, let them be interviewed and let them get hoisted on their own petard of crazy and hate ridden ideas.
We do not need the Unite thugs to speak for us on the BNP.
the Unite Against Fascism member who said "right to free speech except for fascists....should have said "right to free speeech except for racists".
ReplyDeletegriffin the head of a rascist party and in my opinion has no place in our society and any protest to his abhorent views (particularly if the said protest makes him look like a complete c**t) is welcomed!
Ironically the BNP are the least British out of all the political parties and anyone who subscribes to their views lacks the most basic knowledge of our island's history.
bunch of wan**rs the lot of them.
Good on you, Iain!
ReplyDeleteA couple of quotes:
"I have always been among those who believed that the greatest freedom of speech was the greatest safety, because if a man is a fool, the best thing to do is to encourage him to advertise the fact by speaking."
Woodrow Wilson
"We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is afraid of its people."
John Fitzgerald Kennedy
Firtsly, I would like Silent Hunter to name an occasion when Griffin has dished out physical violence, please. Provide a link.
ReplyDeleteCanvas - Ian Dale is not making Griffin a victim. Griffin IS an assault victim purely because he was assaulted.
Anonymous - Griffin would say (and probably would now appear more so to some) that he was a defender of free speech, and that the enemies of free speech are the fascists who attacked him.
We should, in this country, be able to associate freely, and do it where we like. Griffin should be able to have a news conference in Parliament square.
I have very good reason to dislike the BNP. But I do understand how certain people in this country, lately feeling disenfranchised, will look at how the British police stood by and let Islamists burn the union flag, and how the same police stood by and let a democratically elected politician be assaulted, and they will compare it unfavourably. And they will be swayed because they will say - here is the law abiding, once again, coming off second best to those who break the law, or scorn it.
Oh by the way Iain I guess you know that you'll be spammed by hundreds of anon BNP supporters now - thereby destroying the integrity of your blog. Nice one. Please don't post anymore on the BNP or just consider maybe switching off 'anon'. It's so lame.
ReplyDeleteWhat ME says will strike a chord with thousands of people especially in the North. Many actually voted for them because thats what they want to hear. Big danger for Cameron getting into bed with this UAF lot many white working class people just regard them as yet more of the `great unwashed`.
ReplyDeleteAs for the views on Heath...with you all the way.
Me:
ReplyDeleteThe evidence stems from growing up in London during the 70's when the National Front were at large - seeing the skinheads in their Nazi regalia beating up Black people and Asian People and working to prevent that.
Perhaps I'm slightly older than you and can remember where the BNP have come from.
resurgemus:
Actually; thank you. You have made me consider my previous posting which on reflection may well be interpreted as "being as bad as they are".
Forgive me, but as one who fought the rise of the NF in the late 70's it was probably a knee jerk reaction to them.
I am happy to retract the statement denying them freedom of speech - you are correct and in retrospect, I was wrong.
We can't be right all of the time eh? ;o)
Amazing quote from Voltaire i believe. The more i read your blog Iain Dale, the more i believe you are a man of conviction. In morals and politics. I remember a dearly missed political titan, an old lady now, that once showed such virtues in the face of many enemies. Paraphrasing Gandhi, someone may be in the minority of one, but the truth is still the truth. I applaud your courage
ReplyDeleteAnon says "Canvas - Ian Dale is not making Griffin a victim. Griffin IS an assault victim purely because he was assaulted"
ReplyDeleteoh boohoo. John Prescott knows how to fight his own battles. he doesn't need Iain Dale to help. At least John Prescott has character. Griffin is a vile hateful man . Let him reap what he sows. Who cares.
"Fascist" is thrown about by some on the Right as well - see Jonah Goldberg's recent book entitled _Liberal Fascism_.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, there is a difference between "no platform" and chasing after people in the street and throwing eggs.
My preference to allow free speech and to give them enough rope to hang themselves.
But let's be clear here. There is no "place in the debate" for people who deny the Holcause happened. There is no "argument to answer" for people who call for the voluntary deportation of British citizens. And there is no need to shake hands with members of a party which uses pseudo-racial definitions to define it's own membership.
All that free speech demands is a minimal level of civility, no violence or threats of violence, and a commitment to oppose the views the BNP expressed.
Absolutely agree with you. Whether you or I agree or not, there were people that voted them in and at least during these elections, we were actually allowed to have a say in something!!!!
ReplyDeleteThe answer I want is, why were people forced to vote for the BNP?
This can't just be blamed on the Labour Party, the Conservatives are as much to blame.
you'll be spammed by hundreds of anon BNP supporters now - thereby destroying the integrity of your blog.
ReplyDeleteWhat a load of sanctimonious pomposity. So my opinion is worth less than yours because I don't agree with you? Are you familiar with the concepts of freedom of speech and conscience?
canvas said...
ReplyDeleteoh boohoo. John Prescott knows how to fight his own battles. he doesn't need Iain Dale to help. At least John Prescott has character. Griffin is a vile hateful man . Let him reap what he sows. Who cares.
Does that go for all elected persons or just the ones you don't like?
Are you saying he isn't entitled to the protection of the law?
No rights for people you don't like, you sound like the UAF.
Norton Folgate said...
ReplyDelete"This took place outside Parliament, where were the police?"
I was watching the demonstration. Even though the demonstrators appeared to know Griffin was holding a press conference on Abingdon Green, the police appeared not to be aware of it. It was only when Griffin was getting in his car, and demonstrators were hitting it with placards, that one of the policemen on gate barrier duty at the House of Lords decided to go over to see if any action was necessary. A couple of other officers turned up shortly afterwards to observe the demonstration, but as Griffin was gone the demonstrators dispersed shortly afterwards.
Oh well said Iain.
ReplyDeleteI am in Yorkshire. I did not vote for the BNP, but I know plenty who did and their reasons are understandable.
ReplyDeleteThey were all absolutely furious about Mandelson calling people racists for wanting to work in their own country. He told them to get on a plane and leave their homeland and families, if they wanted to work. The ruling elite want to turn the working classes of Euorpe into rootless nomads.
Scotland has a protection zone in place, and Gordon Brown knows this. He only calls the English racists, and never mentions the Scottish Liberation Army, or the Welsh house burners, who are apparently acceptable because they're only anti-English. The English have been placid by comparison, merely asking for a fair crack of the whip in their own backyards. Brown was begging for this result. He got it in spades. Brown & Mandy only have themselves to blame.
It is one thing to allow them freedom of speech but another to give them so much airtime.
ReplyDeleteThe BBC covered none of the successful candidates' speeches on Sunday night until the BNP man was elected. Since then the news channels have been at every one of their staged events. I don't see the Greens getting the same publicity even though they got 9% of the vote.
Let them speak but only give them the minimal airtime their 6% deserves.
On a slightly different note I see on ITV news that an innocent bystander was knocked to the ground by a BNP gorilla. I hope she has reported it to the police.
As the great leader announces (in the midst of his non stop work in saving the economy) that he's reforming the voting system - primarily to save his own skin but probably making it ever more likely that the far left wing BNP scum will get seats in our parliament in future.
ReplyDelete@canvas and others
ReplyDeleteSorry I agree with Iain, all these morons achieved was to give the odious Griffin 5 hours of rolling news cover on every station.
I listened to a very silly little girl repeatedly telling Eddie Mair on Radio 4 that she represented the vast majority of the British people. No love you don't represent anyone as you never stood for an election.
Why didn't they go and pelt Gordon Brown and every one else in the house of Commons for getting and keeping us in the EU which elected a damn sight more fascists and Nazis across the rest of Europe than the two twats we sent there
"Fascist" was used by Jonah Goldberg in the actual historical context of Mussolini and his Fascisti, Paul. Hardly "thrown about" -- he made a very good case for the essentially left-wing nature of fascism.
ReplyDeleteAnyhow, it's hilarious to hear someone purporting to be named "canvas" shout that anonymous posting should be turned off. Hear, hear! Let us all use our real fake names!
@canvas and others
ReplyDeleteSorry I agree with Iain, all these morons achieved was to give the odious Griffin 5 hours of rolling news cover on every station.
I listened to a very silly little girl repeatedly telling Eddie Mair on Radio 4 that she represented the vast majority of the British people. No love you don't represent anyone as you never stood for an election.
Why didn't they go and pelt Gordon Brown and every one else in the house of Commons for getting and keeping us in the EU which elected a damn sight more fascists and Nazis across the rest of Europe than the two twats we sent there
"Are you saying he isn't entitled to the protection of the law?"
ReplyDeleteI'm saying that Iain Dale is perpetuating a dangerous argument. The real argument is with the hateful views held by the BNP. That is what matters - not a little egg yolk.
Sure, up for freedom of speech - but more importantly stand up for those who can't speak for themselves - the real victims of the BNP.
I agree, Iain. All they did today was play into Griffin's hands. He wanted something like this to happen and it gave him more publicity than a mere press conference would have done.
ReplyDeleteAh, but Iain, fighting the fascists with reasoned debate takes effort and time, and means eschewing bully boy tactics, whereas today's effort involved shouting down the oppoes, making no reasoned debate and an 'end justifies the means' use of "let's damage their cars as well" tactic.
ReplyDeleteCheck out the interview with one of the miscreants on PM with Eddie Mair.
Canvas. We are supposed to have rule of law.
ReplyDeleteWhat else can I say? Ian Dale did not make Griffin a victim. He was pelted by eggs, therefore he was assaulted. Therefore he was a victim. Therefore, the UAF made him a victim. Noone is fighting Griffins battles for him, but we are fighting for the central principle of freedom of expression (underpinned by the rule of law).
And what the hell has John Prescott got to do with it? It's a rhetorical question. The answer is nothing.
there is a BNP press conference in Manchester tomorrow. Which leaves it a bit late for the UAF to invest in some media training.
ReplyDeletePerhaps you could offer your services instead Iain ?
You could also suggest to them that they are better sticking with viral videos and organising 'love music hate racism' gigs - which are more effective..
"Protest organiser Weyman Bennett, national secretary of Unite Against Fascism, said he believed it was important to stand up to the BNP.
ReplyDelete"The majority of people did not vote for the BNP, they did not vote at all. The BNP was able to dupe them into saying that they had an answer to people's problems.
How patronising! So the dumb Northern grunts had the wool pulled over their eyes by these fascists?
You have to be marginalised, poor, under-educated, ethnic English and live in Leeds, Blackburn, Bolton, Bradford etc to begin to understand why so many people voted for the BNP in such areas.
If UAF follow the Huntingdon model, they'll be torching Iain's new Kennington offices pretty soon, to discourage him from giving the BNP a platform on his radio show.
ReplyDeleteBut so long as no fluffy animals come to harm...
Bravo Iain.
ReplyDeleteI agree wholeheartedly with you. Much as I loathe the BNP, I don't agree with stifling freedom of speech however much I disagree with what's being said. Hiring 'rent-a-mob' to silence people like Griffen makes them no better than he is and the BNP will have gained more sympathisers because of it.
Please tell me David Cameron will no longer support the UAF. I was appalled to see his name on the list of supporters.
UAF is a broad front that is under the control of the SWP. No Trade Union can get away with disaffiliating from it because of the name but essentially it exists to funnel funds to the SWP and pay for its organisers.
ReplyDeleteUAF gives anti fascism a bad name. They waste money on organising stupid concerts under Love Music Hate Racism that do nothing to tackle the BNP.
Also they seem to spend a lot of their time attacking Searchlight (something about them being zionist!) and generally being far more interested at protesting as a means of sucking people into the SWP than doing anything via legitimate political parties.
David Cameron and other mainstream politicians of various parties should show them the door!
Socialists, whether International or National are all undemocratic knuckle dragging Neanderthal thugs, so I was not surprised at the UAF "action".
ReplyDeleteHowever it was crass stupidity if the great unwashed thought they would be cheered on by the GBP; the natural reaction of decent Brits seeing those pictures is sympathy for the victim, in this case Herr Griffin of Mindbenders.
Utter counter-productive foolishness.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete"And what the hell has John Prescott got to do with it?"
ReplyDeleteThrow an egg at Prescott and he'll sort you out! :)
Throw an egg at a vile racist hateful man like Griffin who apparently denies the holocaust ever happened - and - bingo - Iain Dale defends his rights and therefore makes a 'victim'. No, let the man fight his own battles. Iain is cutting off his nose to spite his face.
Just in case anyone would like to see the representative of the UAF speaking for himself, he's on Newsnight very shortly. It's quarter to eleven now and I think it's the next story. You really owe it to yourself to see what these people are about.
ReplyDeleteWhy doesn't someone get hold of Griffin and plain ask him what he says about the holocaust ?
ReplyDeleteThen we'll know.
I am getting tired of these Chinese whispers, it's like schoolboy bullying.
Just ask them, and if he says it didn't happen, then f*** him.
But I am no longer prepared to believe the BNP position is what hysterical lefties and trendy right wingers tell me it is.
Prescott was attacked by 1 man, Griffin was attacked by a mob, was he supposed to take them on single handed?
ReplyDeleteGet real
If he had you'd be calling him a viscious thug.
Absolutely!
ReplyDeleteBlogged about this here, Unite Against Democracy and the Stink of Hypocrisy earlier today.
Then went to the UAF Facebook account and asked 'em the following:
"So, you UAF guys feel good about today? You disrupted a press conference; you shouted down your opponents; you used violence to achieve your ends; you stifled debate; you suppressed views you didn't agree with. So much easier than the tired old democratic approach, eh?
But its all ok, because you're right and 'they' are wrong. ""We don't believe in free speech.." : what a telling soundbite. You must be very proud.""
No response yet. But then it is a school night, so early bedtime for most of 'em.
Anyone else watching the UAF spokesprat on Newsnight now?
ReplyDeleteCanvas - John Prescott would sort me out, would he?
ReplyDeleteLook at the language of those who are against the ones who are supposed to hate.
I'm trying to get this straight. Ian Dale is defending Nic Griffin, but by words, you would conceed. So, yes, let Griffin defend himself by the same means - that is words. But hang on, you don't want him to do that. Apparently you want Griffin to brawl in the street like Prescott did when he demeaned himself and his office, and ALL the people he represented?
"Griffin was attacked by a mob"
ReplyDeleteSo were the people put in to Auschwitz. Who stood up for them? My father did. Who died for the people in Auschwitz? Many of our relatives. An egg on Nick griffin? who cares.
Totally agree Iain.
ReplyDeleteI think it boils down to whether we want a true democracy or not.
A true democracy is not just about a limited choice between "decent" Labour, Liberals and Conservatives. A true democracy allows people to vote for the unsavoury. It allows for mistakes. That is about freedom.
To pelt someone with eggs who is non-violent and elected just because he is beyond the pale to you is the start of a very slippery slope.
I value free speech and that involves the defence of people I don't agree with as well as those I do.
***" I believe in freedom of speech for everybody but fascists."***
ReplyDeleteSounds perfectly reasonable until you consider that, once it becomes accepted that "fascists" have no right to free speech, all you have to do to silence your opponents is to label them as "fascists". Just like they did to Iain at University.
anon > "Canvas - John Prescott would sort me out, would he?"
ReplyDeleteyou omitted the :) the irony...
Canvas you're talking nonsense.
ReplyDeleteAre the UAF going to follow Griffin to Brussels and back over the next five years then? All that these people have achieved is disrupted a press conference, shown they're hypocrites and violent thugs and allowed Griffin to justify charging the tax payer more money for bodyguards and protection.
Oh well done UAF, great work.
By the way how many times have these UAF people been out throwing eggs at Richard Barnbrook the BNP guy in London assembly or have they forgotten about him?
Correct Iain.
ReplyDeleteSome people are behaving like 6th form radicals in the safety of numbers. The knuckle-dragger on Newsnight at the moment is a classic example.
We all dislike them - the last thing you should do is draw attention to them. They have been "victimised" now - the people who voted for them will be echoing I told you so - well done UAF.
Prats.
Iain is right. As the old saying goes there is no point wrestling with a pig: you both get dirty only the pig likes it. It was a waste of an egg.
ReplyDeletewhy was griffin standing outside westminister anyway? he was elected to the European Parliament!
ReplyDeleteWell said Canvas... "let him reap what he soes". I shall certainly not be losing any sleep over the well being of rascist scum.
A slight cautionary tale. In 1987 I arrived at University in North Wales. At the time it had a Conservative MP, a Conservative MEP and a Conservative PM. The Student Union had instituted a ban on "Racist Organisations" operating on their property. Fair enough, you might think. Except that they then listed the Conservative Party as a racist organisation. Be careful before you start denying categories of people (even awful people) their right to representation. One day someone might stick you in that category.
ReplyDeleteBNP leader Nick Griffin was interviewed on Sky News on Sunday night as he awaited his own election results.
ReplyDeleteAt first, he trotted out some mainstream lines which made him sound like a Daily Mail editorial.
But as the interview continued, the mask slipped, and by the end of the ten minute segment he was ranting that Islam would cause a fall in civilisation similar to the fall of the Roman Empire.
Simple questioning from Adam Boulton showed more about the BNP's racist policies and undertones than 100 of these protests ever could.
These people must be debated and exposed, rather than attacked and silenced.
It's also the line that's been pushed by New Labour every time they've introduced new restrictions on freedom.
ReplyDeleteYou oppose giving the police the right to castrate people at random in the street??? So you're defending rape then?
You oppose locking up anyone with a dark skin without trial??? So you're defending the rights of terrorists then?
We need to defend the liberties of ogres not to protect them but to protect ourselves.
As St Paul Schofield said: "I give the Devil benefit of law for my own safety's sake."
Of course, his idea of giving people the benefit of law is to burn umpteen heretics at the stake but it was still a great line.
Iain, you have stated your case here with the necessary balance- it is not necessary to endorse anything that the BNP stands for (many have the same problem with Labour) but elected politicians cannot be bullied out of speaking.
ReplyDeleteBob Crow is a communist sympathiser who is bringing London Transport to a standstill for the next 48 hours, yet nobody would expect to see him physically attacked.
I hope David Cameron makes clear that he disapproves of these kind of actions during PMQs tomorrow.
"Except that they then listed the Conservative Party as a racist organisation"
ReplyDeleteWell , they did classify Nelson Mandela as a terrorist and supported an apartheid regime. doh.
There you all go again...
ReplyDeleteracist, Nazi scum, holocaust denier...
Iain, get Griffin on your radio show, avoid the temptation to constantly repeat "But you're a....RACIST" and ask him some serious questions.
Better still, ask him questions that we submit to you. Then we will know.
If you dont agree we throw things at you...but Gordon is a God despite his completely FACIST methods...not for nothing do they call him OUR LEADER, NOKIAS; LASER PRINTERS...and now it hits the grass roots...how to win....throw things at people LIKE OUR LEADER..Free speach whats that...thats only for the left, sod the people, sod the country..do as we say or else..LONG LIVE GORDON OUR LEADER...what a load of pathetic morons..and we paid for their education...
ReplyDeleteHaving said all that, I thought it was significant that, when Griffin minders were trying to clean the eggs off his suit, he told them: "Only scoop off the yolks, I prefer the whites."
ReplyDeleteCanvas - hope your saw the UAF bloke on Newsnight? All you have to do to confound clowns like Griffin and the UAF is to let them speak. They always end up condemning themselves. Griffin is foul, but who is more dangerous to our democracy now? Brown and his latest wheeze - 'democratic renewal', IMHO purely in order to secure his, Brown's, future or Griffin?
ReplyDeleteThe scary display today shows the left has lost the political argument. It's scary that the governing elite can fund thugs who shut down debate. Who is next? An MP of any party who opposes the EU? Someone not convinced by climate change? A Christian preacher who opposes gay marriage? A gay person who advocates gay rights? The simplest way to make the BNP irrelevant is to debate them on their views. If they deny the Holocaust, show them evidence and make them look foolish. We've really got to a dangerous state in the West where certain views are not tolerated. All those who voted BNP on Thursday would see this today and feel they were right. The only way to convince those people otherwise is to take on the BNP's views, not attack British citizens expressing their own views in their own country.
ReplyDeleteAnd, where were the Police?
Hey Silent Hunter....you have a goverment who are doing all to stop free speach...ask the Labour MPs
ReplyDelete"Better still, ask him questions that we submit to you. Then we will know"
ReplyDeletebetter still, Iain, just post the videos of Nick Griffin talking about the "non-existent gas chambers". There is the proof that you need.
Let's talk about David Cameron instead of this nasty piece of work Griffin.
Canvas,
ReplyDeleteJust because the Conservatives didn't support sanctions against South Africa doesn't mean they supported apartheid. I'd bet you didn't support the sanctions against Iraq; does that mean you supported Saddam?
And the Conservatives didn't "classify" Nelson Mandela as anything. If they had "classified him as a terrorist" then I imagine they wouldn't have granted him a visa to travel to the UK in 1990.
I don't mind people disagreeing with me. I'm even open to changing my views if people are better-informed than I am. But please don't spout tripe at me.
Canvas you are missing the point.
ReplyDeleteI want Griffin, in a studio, challenged on these points.
Holocaust, Mr. Griffin, explain to me now where you personally, and the BNP in general, stand on this.
Straight from the horses mouth.
I don't want to make my mind up on what you or Iain tell me. I want it direct from source.
I would not be at all surprised if Labour's henchmen were not behind this lot. What a perfect distraction from the disaster they are making of the country, from their thieving and the appalling cowardice of the PLP. Mandelson perhaps?
ReplyDelete@Drowning man in a socialist paradise.
ReplyDeleteI saw it! I just can't believe Cameron is one of them, makes me want to spit!
Canvas ... reading through all your posts I think it's fair to summarise your philosophy as: "Freedom, liberty & security to everyone who thinks like me". Like a typical, liberal moral-relativist you flippantly brandish the holocaust as some sort cheap rally call to the 'anti-fascist' cause - yet in reality you simply think the wrong people were in the concentration camps. Small minded hypocrite. But guess what, I don't think Iain should ban you from making comments - though they be as narrow-minded, contradictory & reprehensible as any I have ever heard from the BNP.
ReplyDeleteanon at 11:18
ReplyDelete"David Cameron has made another decisive break with the Conservative Party's past by admitting that Margaret Thatcher had been wrong to brand Nelson Mandela's African National Congress (ANC) "terrorists" during the struggle against apartheid."
The Tory leader, who met Mr Mandela during a visit to South Africa last week, said: "The mistakes my party made in the past with respect to relations with the ANC and sanctions on South Africa make it all the more important to listen now. The fact that there is so much to celebrate in the new South Africa is not in spite of Mandela and the ANC, it is because of them - and we Conservatives should say so clearly today."
Writing in The Observer, Mr Cameron praised the former South African president as "one of the greatest men alive" and said his overwhelming impression was "not how violent the armed struggle or Soweto uprisings were, but how restrained".
Even David Cameron knows the Conservative Party screwed up on South Africa.
How about United Against Treason?
ReplyDeleteYou know, the treason organised by Tory Prime Minister Heath in 1971 and supported by the Labour and Liberal parties, the media and The Foreign and Commonwealth Office to name some of the main players.
Compliancy with this most disgusting act continues to this day.
It is these traitors that disgust me NOT the BNP!
Why not Unite Against Islam? Have you listened to that most odious Labour MP, Shahid Malik? Probably not, the media covered it up! He said, "has predicted the total Islamification of Britain and a Muslim prime minister, “Allah willing”, within the next thirty years." He went on, " “In 1997 we got our first Muslim MP. In 2001 we had two Muslim MPs. In 2005 we had four Muslim MPs. In ša Allah, in 2009 (or) 2010 we’ll have eight or ten Muslim MPs. In 2014 we’ll have 16 Muslim MPs. At this rate the whole parliament will be Muslim.”
Malik realising he may have been overheard by the press backtracked slightly, saying that was not his intention “in case any members of the press are present.”
Oh yes, he`s back in the cabinet now having been cleared of theft! Trouble is Brown will not allow us to read the report!
Nearly one million people voted BNP, despite being denied equal media presence and running a campaign on little money. How much did the Tories or Labour spend to lose votes?
When will the treasonous, incompetent thieving liars of the three main parties realise - we know what`s going on!
Fact is though they/you just don`t get it do you?
Very very soon, I believe that English people will rise up and fight very hard for their country. We always do in the end, and now, Brown, Cameron et al have pushed us all just a bit too far!
The protest against Griffin today was completely counterproductive. He was the main item on the news for several hours afterwards.
ReplyDeleteI entirely agree with you Iain.UAF have simply played right into the BNP’s hands.
ReplyDeleteNo doubt for every egg thrown the vile fascists will get another 100+ votes next time round having had their false narrative of victimhood validated by the mindless thug like behaviour of a bunch of violent antidemocratic morons who are absolutely no better than, and absolutely as dangerous as, the BNP themselves.
Unite Against Fascism is and was, as was well known to everyone in 2004 except David Cameron it seems, created by and is wholly controlled by the Socialist Workers Party and Ken Livingston's Socialist Action, in other words by the revolutionary Trotskyites.
UAF are the other side of the same coin as the BNP and no democrat should have anything to do with them. The best cross party anti BNP organisation to support is Hope Not Hate.
The UAF only need to look in a mirror to see a fascist. What a churlish bunch of bludgers.
ReplyDeletePlayTalk: UAF's Weyman Bennet vs BNP's Simon Darby
about 18-19 mins in
rebel saint - that's an unintelligent analysis. You couldn't even begin to think that you know how my mind works ;)
ReplyDelete@ Canvas. Your logic is so misguided, you must be Derek Draper!
ReplyDeleteAttacks on Griffin, like today's, only reinforce his support.
disillusioned Dale blog reader > "you must be Derek Draper"
ReplyDeletenot unless he is a cross dresser??!
:))
Well said Iain.
ReplyDeleteI'm glad to see a majority view seems to back a sensible approach to dealing with him that doesn't play in to the hands of the BNP
Iain, I totally agree with this. Griffin should be allowed to speak! UAF are acting like facists themselves and its a disgrace they are taxpayer funded.
ReplyDeleteEngage with the BNP through dialogue - not eggs and violence!
Oh nearly forgot, Tories, Libar and Liberal parties FUND UAF!
ReplyDeleteInteresting to note that our glorious Met Police stood around today and failed to react to the violence against the BNP! A few weeks ago they killed an innocent Englishman and quite some time ago they killed an innocent Brazillian!
Add to that they will not be acting against all the thieving MP`s and we appear to have a Zimbabwean style security force here already!
Democracy, don`t make me laugh!
Look Canvas, Gordon Brown believes that he is the best leader for Labour and the country - despite the amassed evidence .
ReplyDeleteWhy don't you rave about that for a change. It's as nonsensical as saying the Holocaust did not take place, and Gordon's delusion is far more perinent and harmful.
And why don't you have a go at the idiocy of Islamic preachers for telling vulnerable people that if they kill themselves and others they will live life out in heaven with numerous virgins - which doens't seem much fun to me, but there you go!!
Iain Dale is now an expert on fascists as well as blogging and politics.
ReplyDeleteTitter ye not.
Freedom of speech is not absolute.
Dale defends the BNP. And yet, when both Griffin and Brons were asked why they had no coloureds in the BNP, they refused to answer that they are not allowed to join.
The BNP is homophobic. It surprises me that Iain Dale is in support of this given that he is himself a homosexual.
Perhaps, Iain Dale is also a racist because he supports the BNP's racist position on refugees and asylum seekers.
If Iain Dale was not such a smart arse, he would know that the BNP MEPs are not legal under the EU legislation. Therefore, his protests are misguided.
JHL, you are a first class prat. As you can clearly see, I have in now way defended the BNP and nor would I. Words fail me.
ReplyDeletewhy do uaf and there ilk never protest against swp and other marxist supporting parties. Surley they are just as responsible for mass murder as the nazis. Millions died under salin. Best they all get back to uni' and allow democraticaly elected people to have their say and if they are so wrong defeated with argument
ReplyDeleteFirst class prat will do it! I was trying to think of a pejorative that wouldn't get me in trouble with management.
ReplyDeleteSo I take it canvas that you too believe that the Conservative Party should have been banned as a Racist Organisation?
ReplyDeleteCan you give me a list of your approved organisations so that I know what I can and can't think in your "Brave New World"?
Screw the UAF and their leftie soul mates in the BBC, Labour Party etc.
ReplyDeleteWhere were the cops?
Are the BNP now a legit target?
Screw the lot of them.
anon at 11:49
ReplyDelete"So I take it canvas that you too believe that the Conservative Party should have been banned as a Racist Organisation?"
No, I just would never have voted for them at that time. Never. Most of my generation despised the Tories then. However, I like David Cameron. I might give him my vote this time around - but I'm still not entirely convinced.
Good to see you can be added to the list of people who do not know what fascist means.
ReplyDeleteAs for Freedom of Speech... the right is finite, even Mill accepted the harm principle. The protestors today have failed because it gained Griffin an extra voice, but as someone who has been chased by BNP 'activists' for daring to deliver leaflets for a different Party, they have long since lost their right to free speech.
Canvas,
ReplyDeleteWell that's fine. Its entirely your right to decide who you will and won't vote for. Exactly like the voters of Yorkshire and the Northwest.
It just shows how much we have lost the idea that people have the right to express what they feel.
ReplyDeleteI am not a supporter of the BNP but I defend their right to express what they want too.
This country fought a war for this principal and now we have a bunch of prats who do not think, but just follow the party line.
They have no idea what real fascism is, or what communism is. Both are the same side of elite's who oppose the idea of people having the right to determine how they live.
Sadly we are now living in a state that embraces both
Will,
ReplyDelete"They won't be throwing eggs at Martin Mcguinness or Gerry Adams, of that you can be sure" and they of course are also fascist thugs, as are the islamist absolutists such as Respect. We never saw the anti-fascists pelting them with eggs either.
However I don't think it is (just) about fear: I think that the anti-fascists are racist. If you are white British fascists they will throw eggs. If you are asian fascists, or northern Irish fascist they won't. It is like manhy on the internationalist left. The hate the nationalist left as long as it is there own colour.
Canvas ... it's obvious you're never going to see common sense so if you were in the same room I'd willingly throw eggs at you and whack you over the head with a placard until you abandon your hateful liberal ways and started to have acceptable opinions and behaved tolerantly like what I do.
ReplyDeleteanon at 11:59> "Exactly like the voters of Yorkshire and the Northwest." yes, the problem is with all those people who chose NOT to vote (HUGE) and because of their apathy we now have 2 fascist MEPs. Cheers, guys. If you don't vote - you can't complain.
ReplyDeleterebel saint, you couldn't get in my club. It's very particular. ;)
ReplyDeletecanvas, you say "Let Griffin fight back against the egg thrower just like John Prescott did."
ReplyDeleteIf Griffin gives the egg thrower a slap do you think the police will do nothing and the Prime Minister state with a chuckle " well that was just Nick being Nick." ?
Iain: Coming from you "JHL, you are a first class prat" I take this as a compliment.
ReplyDeleteDescribing anti-fascists as fascists is pathetic even for your standards.
If you cannot see the wood for the trees, I will send you a reminder of the main point in my comment "If Iain Dale was not such a smart arse, he would know that the BNP MEPs are not legal under the EU legislation".
I have read through this lot. Seems to me that this threads very existence is an example of what the BNP want – they want to be discussed and argued about. That way they stay in the collective consciousness. And then we have the UAF headbanging into the BNP’s trap – what a bunch of plonkers. I saw that bloke on Newsnight (I’d guess the BNP are not his only target with violence; angry man, very weird)
ReplyDeleteAs MT (eventually) discovered decades ago, to try to extinguish the oxygen of publicity to “people we don’t like” is futile – and particularly if they have a constituency. How many people voted for the BNP? As Iain has said here many times: Take them on in open debate. Mainstream parties, are you listening?
JHL, and how might that be then? Why would they be any different from the French National Front? Are you suggesting they wont be able to take their seats. If so you're even more of an idiot than you've already shown yourself to be on this thread.
ReplyDeletehaddock > It's about character ;) Prezza has style and decency.
ReplyDeleteAs for Griffin let him reap what he soes...omlette, fried, over easy...whatever. who cares.
Iain,
ReplyDeleteI think you fall into overuse of the 'f' word here yourself but in general I agree with the thrust; this simply is not the way to deal with this and I think it is moronic and counterproductive.
oh for heavens sake CANVAS you are an uneducated fool
ReplyDeleteMandela admitted in open court the concept and his approval of using terror as a weapon against a civilian population (Look up the proceedings of the Rivonia Trial. He had spent may years OPPOSING terrism until he had a change of mind and joined the armed wing of the ANC and openly advocated terrorism.
The ignorant mob of left wing cannon fodder that is so un democratic that they are frightened of hearing oposing views committed a crime. It does not matter WHO they shut up; they prevented some one from legally exercising his freedom of speech.
Or are you so insecure you can not face up to people who differ from you; because that makes YOU the racist.
Voltaire was right - you are wrong - discuss with put the use of violence or eggs.
Go on prove yourself a democrat - or are you just another BNP supporter ? (Read their manidesto; apart from the immigration stance they are a bunch of socialists - or would actually researching what they say threaten your insecurities ?)
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteAnd whilst we're on the subject of trying to silence those we do not like, here's
ReplyDeleteanother example but this is even more frightening & sinister because it is being done under the authority of the law. And there'll be plenty more of it once the 'equality' bill is in place and when the free speech clause is removed from the hate crimes legislation.
This is the first time ive bothered to read this diary, and frankly am not impressed.
ReplyDeleteyour perception of supposed facist methods is totally wrong. what you see as denying free speech is in fact a protest in the defence of human rights and equality. It is for the prevention of harm to others.
I can greatly sympathise with the UAF, and Canvas who feel the BNP are ureasonable and want to fight fire with fire. But I also accept that he must be talked down, one way or another, shown for what he really is. if we cant go to griffin we should go to his voters. noone can be proud of what happened today, it is hipocritical, but be pleased there are those who dont want to sit back while letting racism represent Britain.
I dont know why people are having a go at leftiesits. got nothing to do with them, the opposite to communism is capitalism, not facism. we are arguing for liberalism against authoritarianism/facism.
OK peter dtm, David Cameron must have got it all wrong! imagine that... lol > as if.
ReplyDeleteYou lost the argument before you began.
nite nite hug hug
Having lived through the end of WW2 I find people like Canvas and a few anonymous must be very young and brainwashed by the present labour mob - I refuse to call then government. It is very obvious that the UAF are the hit squad for the Socialists - in other words the brown shirts of any Fascist regime - and are in fact what they say the BNP are.
ReplyDeleteI also find it mildly amusing that the youngsters are following their conditioning and doing the 'if we say it often enough people will believe' - Canvas I'm looking at you, either give chapter and verse where NG said he was a holocaust denier or STFU.
The whole episode show how far the present ruling regime will go to keep in power. It will take a lot to shift them, GB has been lusting after his position and the power it gives and will use all means possible to keep it - subverting the police and allowing the likes of the UAF to trample on all that oppose him. He and Mandelson will keep on with their underhand ways, after all what other democratic country has unelected people running it?
Canvas, are you at all embarrassed by the amount of attention-whoring you've done in this thread?
ReplyDeleteweasie , no, you ask me a question so naturally I answer it. I won' go quietly. actually I will...I am tired now.
ReplyDeleteEnjoy your freedom of speech.
xx
to rebel saint that video seems abit bias dont you think. it was made by the victim, how do we know he hadnt been preaching homophobia before?
ReplyDeletefrankly its proably people who dont want to be bothered by preachers, i know i dont, who assume he is homophobic, but surely he could just be moved to a different area to preach. thats what churches are for.
Canvas @6.45
ReplyDeleteIsn't it past your bedtime?
It's like the National Front and the Anti Nazi League in the seventies. I knew a few of the latter and it was evident to me that the two groups needed each other because they defined themselves in terms of whoever they hated.
ReplyDeleteThe fact is that they fancied each other something rotten. Nothing a fascist loves more than a fat, juicy communist and vice versa.
Freedom of speech is one thing. Monopolizing the conversation at somebody else's party is another. G'night, canvas.
ReplyDeleteSo, therefore people who claim facists are of the hard left would possibly be correct?
ReplyDeleteCanvas is a 5th form socialist labour troll.
ReplyDeleteI think the other important thing to learn from this is, if you are a blogger and want to increase your comment count, put the 3 letters BN&P in the title ;o)
ReplyDeleteno they wouldnt. its totally different. both stalin and hitler were both facists, but had opposite economic policies and hated each other. facism means nothing anymore. it has been defined by basic history teaching which is wrong
ReplyDeleteCanvas advocator of violence.
ReplyDeleteHow jolly... fascist of Canvas!
By the way, Canvas, I hope that wasn't some lamebrained threat against Iain's blog?
rebel siant i agree
ReplyDeleteComing to this blog late in the evening, and reading it all in one go, its obvious that "Canvas" is a labour party HQ construct, written by several people.
ReplyDeleteThe Labour party hates the BNP more than anything because it will split the strange coalition of white working class voters and immigrant communities on which it has relied for votes since the 1970's.
The BNP is not a fascist organisation, instead it reminds me of the well-meaning Labour party supporters of the 1940's and 50's (who has personal experience of fighting facism), but head office is trying to hold it all together by jumping up and down and shouting "fire" at Mr Griffin.
Canvass:
ReplyDeleteI would put your toys away and go to bed, or you will miss CBeebies tomorrow, its your favourite Bob The Builder.
There once was a man called Griffin,
ReplyDeleteWho many people wanted to do in,
To prove freedom over might,
They hunted him in the night,
Proving a contradiction is invisible-
If your willing.
"...his own thugs like to dish out to those who 'don't fit' their simplistic and ill-educated view of life."
ReplyDeleteAre you lying on purpose?
Iain, for light relief could you give the canvas fool a guest post on this subject ?
ReplyDeleteSlightly OT, but I have often thought that the having a "National Black Police Association" within the police was incitement to racism.
ReplyDeleteMeanwhile the BNP are doing a great job of distracting everyone from the real problem of Brown and Prime Minister Mandleson.
One of the great mysteries in all this is what it was that might have possessed David Cameron, as well as his party colleagues Peter Bottomley, Edward Garnier and Anthony Steen to lend their imprimatur to an agitprop ensemble comprised of castaways from the Socialist Workers Party.
ReplyDeleteIain, can you shed any light? Or perhaps more to the point, what do you feel could have made Dave & Co. at least thus far seemingly so reluctant to distance from UAF and its Rentacrowd-style street theatre?
I find it difficult to understand why the media made such a Mountain out of a molehill, you would think that no politician had never had bad eggs thrown at them? Nick Griffin is not the first and he will not be the last!
ReplyDeleteWhat are those who suffer from BNP principals supposed to do Iain, lie down and let them walk over them.
I did not realise until yesterday that these UAF thugs were being paid for by the taxpayer. I also realised that we are now in a country where selective, politicised policing is practiced as highlighted by the Police standing by whilst Griffin was assaulted.
ReplyDeleteGovernment funded thugs attacking political opponents of the ruling regime? You wouldn't think it could happen here. What happens next time when the BNP justifiably brings along their own private army to protect themselves from the State backed UAF (which is also backed by the Conservative and Liberal Parties)?
Nick Griffin was democratically elected. The UAF thugs were not.
ReplyDeleteIf you believe in free speech and democracy it is clear who was in the wrong yesterday.
On the evidence of yesterday I now expect UAF to be demonstrating against the Hizb ut-Tahrir stall in my local high street this saturday
ReplyDelete......although I won't hold my breath.
Agree with you 100% Iain
ReplyDeleteDo not legitimise them by discriminating against them
Tackle them in open debate and prove to the electorate that voted for them about their bankrupt ideas
I thought UNITE against fascism was sponsored by UNITE, but maybe I misheard. They certainly don't represent me although I abhor what the BNP stands for
Martin Wingfield has links to BBC Radio 4 and Channel 4 interviews on this topic:
ReplyDeletehttp://martinwingfield.blogspot.com/2009/06/weyman-saves-day.html
Where does the "government funded UAF" story come from? I haven't been able to discover anything to back it up. They appear to be funded by the UNITE union and supported by the SWP. The "taxpayer funding" sounds like a BNP propaganda line to me.
ReplyDeleteI am not quite clear about your attitude to the BNP Iain - I get the impression from your preamble that you don't regard them as fascists? Is that correct?
DespairingLiberal
ReplyDeleteRead their manifesto - it is a socialist agenda (nationalisation; centralised government etc)
How on earth can people make judgements on parties without reading their manifestos?
I'm seriously wondering if Canvas is a clever BNP member.
ReplyDeleteTaking such an extreme anti BNP line to make even the most libertarian amongst us feel sorry for big state socialists?
Or are the UAF just that stupid?
Cameron supports the UAF. Good to know.
ReplyDeleteDL, I absolutely do regard them as fascists - part of the fascist left.
ReplyDeleteHaven't read all the posts, but BNP usually keep time/location of their 'Press Conferences' close to their chest until late on.
ReplyDeleteSo who gave these thugs the good news, and why?.
A related comment mentioning this post and addressing the BNP causing the Ruling Class to address issues is http://umbrellog.com/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1007187&p=83969#p83969 regarding the BNP and Climate Change Denial.
ReplyDeleteUnite Against Fascism are just part of the usual fascist-left yobs who masquerade under whatever name suits their purpose at the time.
ReplyDeleteThey may well have different beliefs but their tactics are exactly the same as the fascist-right which is to enforce their particular brand of dictatorial politics on the public by whatever means the deem necessary.
They claim that they are acting out of some high moral purpose as if that gives them the right to behave as they do when in fact they are no better than those they set out to destroy. The attitude that there should be freedom of speech but only if you agree with what I say is no freedom at all, it is Orwellian Double Speak.
The street thugs of the neo-Bolshevik left are no different to those of the neo-Fascist right even if they claim they are. Both are equally obnoxious and both are equally abhorrent in a Free Democracy.
Jimmy R
I get the feeling that if someone had thrown an egg at Gordon Brown y'all wouldn't be calling them 'yobs' so much.
ReplyDeleteAnyone else find it funny that a group calling itself "Unite Against Fascism" wants to ban the bnp because they don't agree with their views?
ReplyDeleteYou can't kill an idea with violence unless you literally kill everybody who has that idea. This is as true in the North of England as it is is the Middle East, and holds for good ideas as well as abhorrent ones. All violence can do for its perpetrators is to completely lose them the moral high ground. Given that basic human morality is one key pillar of the clear case against the vile cant of the BNP, the gutter is a bad place to try to make the case from, and if all these idiots achieve is making a martyr of Nick Griffin and his ilk, they will probably ensure that the vile little %^$! end up with a seat in Westminster off the back of a sympathy vote!
ReplyDeleteNow that he's elected, people have to learn to play the ball and not the man. He's an elected representative now, nausea inducing as that may be. Focus on his ideas. Deconstruct them. Challenge him to defend racist statements he has been quoted as making to his own core supporters. Expose the idea and the assumptions behind it to the light and air of debate and watch it wither and die.
"I get the feeling that if someone had thrown an egg at Gordon Brown y'all wouldn't be calling them 'yobs' so much."
ReplyDeleteJYD, you have the rub of it.
Certainly I don't remember this much outrage when George Bush had a shoe thrown at him, or when Peter Mandelson got attacked with custard.
It was a fricking egg, for crying out loud. In an ideal world, Griffin would have been in the stocks, anyway.
"JHL, and how might that be then? Why would they be any different from the French National Front? Are you suggesting they wont be able to take their seats. If so you're even more of an idiot than you've already shown yourself to be on this thread".
ReplyDeleteI believe what the BNP MEPs stand for is contrary to the aims of the EU, and like with Bobby Sands they can and should be prevented from taking their place in the EU Parliament.
The French National Front question raises a good point, for which I have not got an answer at this time.
Whilst not putting Nigel Farage and Dan Hannan in the same league as Griffin and Brons, they are like the Trojan Horse and I would question their benefitting from what the EU has to offer whilst at the same time seeking to destroy the EU and what it stands for.
Simon said...
ReplyDelete"I also realised that we are now in a country where selective, politicised policing is practiced as highlighted by the Police standing by whilst Griffin was assaulted."
Ever heard of Harry Hammond?
Leave it alone for a while Iain and let things settle.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous Means Test ACA said...
ReplyDelete"I get the feeling that if someone had thrown an egg at Gordon Brown y'all wouldn't be calling them 'yobs' so much."
JYD, you have the rub of it.
NO - throwing (rotten) eggs is a good traditional pass time; one that Prescott tried to stop (remember; excessive violence used in retaliation ? & who went to court ?)
The problem is that the yobs ATTACKED an elected representative with the sole aim of PREVENTING him from speaking in public.
A good egging is a good idea - lets all egg the hoons from the labour party - but NEVER NEVER stop them pouting their poisonous illiberal political lies.
Is it not passing strange that these people cry FREE SPEECH & then do all they can to prevent it ?
"I get the feeling that if someone had thrown an egg at Gordon Brown y'all wouldn't be calling them 'yobs' so much."
ReplyDeleteJYD, you have the rub of it.
Nonsense. It wasn't just an egg thrown, it was the whole news conference being forced to be abandoned. Do you really not see the difference?nolsar
"Nonsense. It wasn't just an egg thrown, it was the whole news conference being forced to be abandoned. Do you really not see the difference?"
ReplyDeleteThey picked a public place to hold their conference. They had no more right to be there than the protestors.
If they want a private press conference without interjections, they should have booked a room and made it invite only.
If I see two people talking in the street, I'm legally entitled to put myself between them, and sing at the top of my voice to drown out their conversation. It might be incredibly annoying, but it's legal. In fact, bouncers and minders employ similar tactics to the paparazzi.
Griffin could have pressed charges under public nuisance, but then he is a bloody public nuisance himself, so he'd be on dodgy ground there.
As would these people.
http://wikileaks.org.uk/leak/bnp-membership-list.txt
Last night Newsnight lived down to my expectations on the last post.
ReplyDeleteThey had a discussion on this involving brownshirt (actualy white sports shirt) would be Himmler & Simon Hughes, a man who supports genocide, child rape, war crimes & organlegging in the Nazi cause. These 2 fascists were supported by Paxman, a racist whore who will tell any lie & censor any fact to promte atrocities that would have shamed Hitler, so long as he keeps trousering his half mill.
In a discussion about how to achieve the final solution to the BNP problem no BNP spokesman was invited. Whether you like the BNp, or indeed know anything about them from any honest source, is not the point. The point is that if the BBC, whose corruption nobody can deny, is allowed to get away not only with engaging directly in party politicis but in inciting fascist violence, then nobody is safe.
I note also that the police have taken no action. We all expect the police to be absent when our own houses are threatened but it defies belief that there were none near the House of Commons either. Perhaps they have been unable to identify the thugs - after all the whole place is covered with CCTV, there was TV film of it & the leader has been interviewed on TV - perhaps the Yard could set one of their top sleuths on tracking them down. I suspect if it was Rangers or Millwall supporters rather than of the Labour/Conservative/LibDem party they would have managed.
I see Iain that you repeat the Tim Montgomerie / Melanie Phillips "left fascist" smear.
ReplyDeleteAlthough there is no fixed and agreed definition of what is Left and what is Right, I think it's nonsense to equate fascism in general with the Left. Socialists are hostile to the concept of the Nation, so almost by definition the two are opposed.
I assume what you mean is that the BNP are totalitarians and that their political agenda on economic matters looks left-wing.
Hitler and the Nazis posed as left-wing in order to win the working class vote. Once they were in power, they locked up trade union leaders and made huge private deals with the wealthiest business owners. I would suggest this is exactly what the BNP would do if they took office. The fact they can pretent to be left-wing does not make them genuinely left-wing.
I think it's a disgrace that you bandy this smear around but it does help to explain why you like to give the BNP airtime.
"Twelve voices were shouting in anger, and they were all alike. No question, now, what had happened to the faces of the pigs. The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."
ReplyDeleteWell said Iain, more than often than not the left cause more trouble than the right.
ReplyDeleteIt's just stupid kids basicly.
In Liverpool the UAF group had a spontaneous demonstration which then marched to the BBC radio merseyside building to protest about the amount of coverage given to the BNP. Brilliant. Protesting about coverage by creating a story that would give them more!!!
ReplyDeleteI've been on demos against racism myself. And I was threatened by two thugs while out delivering anti BNP leaflets - so I know what I feel about this. But you cannot defeat this party by these sort of stunts. They need to be beaten either by exposing their work and arguments for what they are, or dealing with the underlying problems causing people to mistakenly vote for them (and by that I mean dealing with poverty and bad housing not cracking down on "foreigners")
Funnily enough I got banned from the BBC blog for making this point exactly. The BNP are a legitimate, elected party, regardless of whether or not the majority agree with their policies a.k.a democracy in action.
ReplyDeleteNewsnight was superb on this point last night with that tube from UAF claiming the BNP should be banned, ignored etc. He was promptly kicked into touch by Mr Paxman (whose disgust was obvious) and that nice Lib Dem fella.
An interesting point- why did the police not get involved? This was not a peaceful protest and could easily be brought within the parameters of assault.
The only thing these preening shits succeeded in doing is making people feel sorry for Mr Griffin's plight at the hands of the big bad establishment.
Ha! D'Liberal, socialists may not much like nation (if you mean by that a moist affection for the homeland) but they love them some gubmint. Mussolini's fascismo was a sort of play on words between fascio (union) and the fasces -- that bundle of sticks wrapped around an axe that was a Roman symbol of the power of the state. The Nazis, the Fascists and the BNP (and, of course, the socialists) are all up with state control of industry.
ReplyDeleteSo it all depends on how you define left and right.
Frankly, UAF and BNP deserve each other.
ReplyDeleteOne good thing that might come out of Sunday night's results is that Griffin and his mob will have to be given the opportunity to appear more often on TV and radio. The great British public will see this infantile shower for what they really are.
Rather than denying the BNP a platform we should give them every chance to speak and take every opportunity to question them.
Barmbrook, Brons and Griffin may appear 'credible' but the talent pool at BNP is very shallow. Sooner or later the mask will slip.
Canvas:
ReplyDeleteKnock it on the head - you're making a fool of yourself.
I'm gay but I totally disagree with these tactics whether they supposedly benefit me or not (and the days of bullying LGBT people into automatically supporting Labour are over).
ReplyDeleteIt is not for an unelected mob to decide to override what happens in a democratic election. Nor to choose to deny an elected politican the right to do an interview on Parliament Green where every other politician does it.
No doubt the protest yesterday made some of the participants feel good about themselves and raised the personal profile of some cynical individuals. But it was a protest to whom? To the people who voted BNP? What do you think some of them will think seeing a bunch of scruffy 'lefties' behaving like this?
In all it was a huge propaganda victory for the BNP as it lets them claim victim status. Which they are already doing by claiming that whites are the victims of discrimination in this country.
You're spot on Iain . You couldn't get a cigarette paper between the BNP and their Bolshie opponents .
ReplyDeleteI had a suspicion that they may actually be trying to make the BNP look victimised . A latter-day Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact , perhaps ? Or am I taking that too far ?
Anonymous mentioned the "Scottish Liberation Army" by which I take it he means this mob of ineffective clowns -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_National_Liberation_Army
If Griffin was as stupid and inept as this gang of Dublin-resident "freedom fighters", he'd have spent the last 20 years in gaol .
Also , it's rather insulting to Scots to say that they have created some some sort of "protection zone" from English inward immigration because of the infrequent antics of these Wolfie Smith wannabes . It's also , simply , untrue .
Oh , and Canvas "Goodbye , Dolly!"
Iain I completely agree with everything you just said! Thank you for voicing this on the internet for me.
ReplyDeleteI looked at the UAF website, because I was curious about their definition of the term 'fascism'.
ReplyDeleteNo luck. It seems they don't think it necessary to give any definition of the thing they are united against.
That tells me all I need to know about the calibre of these people.
Grassy I think the Newsnight piece was disgraceful. It is completely improper to have a "debate" involving the UAF fascist & a LibDim politician both attacking the BNP without allowing them a response. I would hope everybody here would object if Newsnight did a piece on how members of the Labour party are genocidal child raping Nazis (even though they are) in which they were not allowed to defend themselves.
ReplyDeleteI have put this point on Newsnight's site & like yours, it was banned too. That it is the state owned taxpayer funded broadcaster that is engaging in such blatant party bias & supporting of criminality is particularly disturbing, as is the invisibility of the police around Parliament when their is violence going on.
and don't ever forget; like or hate the bnp they are already ILLEGALLY discriminated against by the Fire Service & the Police Service - not to mention all those other Public Service & QuANGO bodies that illegally discriminate against BNP members by refusing to employ them.
ReplyDeleteWhy don't they treat the communists the same; or even better STOP DISCRIMINATING on POLITICAL GROUNDS
Personally I don't think any SWP member should be allowed any where near a civil service or quango job; but in this democracy I don't have that option; what gives these ignorant fascist yobs the right to break UK Law ??
"Fascist is a word which is thrown around a lot by the left, mostly by people who haven't got a clue what the word means."
ReplyDeleteIain, have you no sense of irony whatsoever?
Question? Has the BNP left their extremist past behind them and genuinely changed?
ReplyDeleteQuestion? Who would you vote for, given the choice between UAF and BNP?
the Unite Against Fascism member who said "right to free speech except for fascists....should have said "right to free speeech except for racists"
ReplyDeleteDoes that include hook man and his rebel rousers spouting death to the west with their police protection? Shame the unite against fascist cant take this kind action against the muslims extremist as well because i tell you one thing being black blue white or orange, i'd feel safer with the so called racist BNP than the Muslim extremists around.
Winston Churchill
ReplyDeleteNeither - I'd spoil my ballot !
It's time Unite Against Fascism were BANNED by the Home Secretary.
ReplyDeleteThese leftwing extremists resort to violence time and time again.
Forget the BNP. These thugs are the REAL THREAT to our democracy!!!!
UAF are a bunch of criminals. They use the word fascist&nazi all the time. They even see social-democrats are fascist, but a bit better then ordinary fascist, thus social-fascist.
ReplyDeleteThese "anti-fascist" criminals killed Pim Fortuyn in Holland.
Why would Cameron support them? Scared of the label "fascist"? Probably.
UAF lists their supporters on their blog & they are basicly civil service unions (I am particularly disgusted that teachers are funding these thugs). Unions get government money & civil service unions exist on their government pull so this makes UAF pretty much a government quango masquerading as a fakecharity. Considering that the absent police are also government employees & so are the BBC who so supportively reported it.
ReplyDeleteI am worried & not about the BNP.
I agree with you, at least I think I do. I could not vote BNP, apart from anything else what do we know of their policies for health, education, defence?
ReplyDeleteThe Conservatives and Labour have no moral ground to slag them off so violently - not just the "hands in the till" expenses scandal.
Thatcher sold off many of the Nation's assets with privatisation to cover debt. Brown has put us up to our necks in debt and Blair took us into two illegal wars which have resulted in the deaths of more than a million, and millions more displaced.
What a bunch. The BNP has not had a chance to prove its dishonesty yet.
Ian you are such a prat the BNP articulate what many think in the England.
ReplyDeleteSo they did not do well in London, no wonder there are hardly any English people left there to vote for the BNP.
Get over the usual insults against them nearly a million voted for them for saying exactly what they believe doh! its called democracy.
Ian as much as I don't agree with your posts, being a BNP supporter, I do like the fact you are standing up for free speech.
ReplyDeleteSo well done in that respective.
The UAF group is a front organization for hardline socialists. I figured this out in about five seconds using wikipedia. Bascially if any organization describes itself as 'anti-fascist (ANTIFA)' or 'against racism' you can bet they are actually international communists on their best behavior. Again, use a search engine. Just as many dug up dirt on the BNP, its time people dug up dirt on the 'anti-fascist' left.
ReplyDeleteCanvas said "Oh by the way Iain I guess you know that you'll be spammed by hundreds of anon BNP supporters..."
ReplyDeleteGiven the distinct possibility of being on the receiving end of violence from the fascist anti-fascits if one admits to being a BNP supporter, I don't blame BNP supporters for remaining anonymous.