political commentator * author * publisher * bookseller * radio presenter * blogger * Conservative candidate * former lobbyist * Jack Russell owner * West Ham United fanatic * Email iain AT iaindale DOT com
Tuesday, April 28, 2009
The Lives of Others - Civil Liberties Mashup
Many a true word spoken. Perhaps this will replace Downfall...
The Lives of Others (Das Leben der Anderen) is an award winning 2006 film about the Stasi in East Germany, yet the lessons from the film has striking parallels with Great Britain in 2009The crucial difference is that East Germany was a nightmare state, whose leadership was politically committed to the utter destruction of liberal democratic values. Pro-democracy dissenters were imprisoned and tortured by the state. There was one Stasi member for every 150 East Germans.
By contrast, there really are jihadist terrorists who are determined to murder as many people as they possibly can. They explain, quite openly, that they're doing so in defence of a political system that denies democracy, equality, and fundamental human rights.
So, disagree with 42 days or with the Home Secretary browsing our porn watching habits.
But, seriously, don't compare the United Kingdom to East Germany.
The East Germans were amateursAs the Left of the political spectrum segues into Ahmedinijad and Chavez worship, the Right shuffles off into Alex Jones territory.
"But, seriously, don't compare the United Kingdom to East Germany."
...or we will kick in your door, intern you, take your PC, imply all manner of unspeakable wrongdoings to smear you without your recourse to open court and then when everyone has forgotten you were innocent, kick you back out onto the street without a penny, a phone, a life or a friend in the world.
Thanks, Iain, for this. I might well just do a "track changes" version of the trailer, only adjusting a little here and a little there, just as I was able to do today with regards to "Boiler Rooms".
David T makes a good point - the UK government is as detached as some of the communist regiemes pre 1989. One just had to watch the brillent insight into that world on the recent BBC production on Communism - Three programs that opened a window on that Political system.
Labour have presided over sleaze, corruption and incomptence.
David T - The only difference between the UK and East Germany is a matter of time.
Anti-terrorist laws used to spy on children, dog fouling and when you put your bin out ? Please don't tell me 'those who have done nothing wrong have nothing to fear' anymore..
David T ... maybe you could explain that to the 12 supposed terrorists, 'perpetrators' of this 'big imminent terrorist attack ... or the 144 protestors arrested before the protest ... or Damian Green ... etc etc.
If your terrorists are really determined to murder as many of us as they can ... have you asked yourself why they are not?
lt is so easy to achieve. lt takes virtually no planning at all because they need no escape plan. They don't intend to survive. So where are the attacks?
No l haven't forgot 7/7 but neither have l forgot the 'troubles' where over 2,200 died and many more casualties. Yet, we didn't run around destroying the very fabric of the UK as we are doing now.
lf terrorists wanted to attack this country, they would ... and there is virtually nothing we could do to stop them.
So, ask yourself 'why not?' ... and please don't insult my intelligence by saying it's the implementation of the current Anti-Terrorism Laws.
The only attacks that the citizens of the UK face are by our own Government on democracy, equality, and fundamental human rights ... the very same targets as your quoted jihadist terrorists!
I agree - party members with comfortable dachas in Tuscany are much more likely to support this overbearing government than the Mail, which has often spoken out about this creeping state control.
Oh right. Just like East Germany. Watch out Old Holborn, you will be arrested at dawn as you would have been in the Communist countries if you had written that. Yes, yes, yes, the gaols are groaning with dissident journalists - you know all those people who dare not criticize the government in our "state controlled media".
Some people here are so obsessed with themselves (that is the polite way of putting it) that they never bother to find out anything else at all. Even if you have seen that film you clearly have not understood anything about it.
Reminds me of people who opposed Weimar Germany because they thought there was no difference between its leaders and the Nazis. They learned the truth fast but it was too late.
At April 28, 2009 11:49 AM , Helen said... Oh right. Just like East Germany. Watch out Old Holborn, you will be arrested at dawn as you would have been in the Communist countries if you had written that. Yes, yes, yes, the gaols are groaning with dissident journalists - you know all those people who dare not criticize the government in our "state controlled media".
So the people who clearly think we are 'tinfoil hatters' aren't worried that we can be compared with Signapore on freedom terms? These are truly worrying times.
I go to mainlando to mainland Europe often on holidays as I'm sure many people here do.
European countries don't monitor their citizens everywhere they go with CCTV cameras. The UK does.
European countries don't have an oppressive state apparatus attempting to monitor every piece of people's lives. The UK does.
European countries don't have vast centralised dossiers on their own citizens. The UK does. This kind of thing is what fascist, communist and other totalitarian regimes do. Not free countries.
I'm not constantly worried in Europe that I might get interrogated for taking photographs in cities. I am in the UK.
Other countries in mainland Europe have their problems but at least we don't have a system of government so authoritarian, so undemocratic, that Russian journalists who lived in the Soviet Union compare it to Communist Russia.
That many people are making similar points must worry people, mustn't it?
Belmarsh still has prisoners who have been there for years who have never even been charged...
Most East Germans were happy. The State provided a job and a house. Our State doesn't even do that unless you are from Somalia.
Wake up people. Do you really think Guido would have been allowed to publish those emails if he was a tabloid journalist? He'd have had a D notice slapped on him faster than a set of handcuffs.
If you believe you are freer than the people of East Germany, then prove it. Go and protest outside our Parliament. You WILL be arrested, you DNA and fingerprints WILL be taken by force and you WILL be on the "criminal" register.
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free
Well, I hope this doesn't reflect the thinking of sane Tories. You get loonies in all parties, I suppose.
First of all, the DDR didn't have any sort of Freedom of Information legislation - legislation that I've made use of myself to look into abuses of governmental power.
Nor did it have an independent judiciary with a Human Rights Act - although of course you're free to argue that this is "rule by liberal judges who have gone soft in the head", as Tories certainly used to do, back in the day.
Neither was there an Information Commissioner, with responsibility for protecting privacy rights.
I could go on, but you get the general idea. To compare the UK with the DDR is utterly obscene. To compare it with Singapore is also absurd - I'll introduce you to some Singaporean liberals, and you can see what they have to say on the subject of respective levels of freedom in the two countries.
You've got a problem with CCTVs? What are you, some sort of primitive tribesman from Papua New Guinea, terrified that your soul will be sold? Do you wear a paper bag on your head when you go out, for fear that strangers might look at you *with their bare eyes* rather than through a TV camera?
The bottom line is this. If you want the State to do lots of things - like provide healthcare, education, benefits and so on - you really do need to collect a fair amount of information. You can introduce legislation to curb how long it is kept, and what can be done with it - and there have been too few safeguards in that respect in some areas, and too many in others - but the only way you can do without the State collecting information is this. Roll back the frontiers of the state. Stop providing benefits. Let power be exercised exclusively by the private sector, and have your beef with them.
Of course, this is what Tories used to argue for... although I suspect you're all welfarists, like us good social democrats, nowadays.
"If you want the State to do lots of things - like provide healthcare, education, benefits and so on - you really do need to collect a fair amount of information"
I don't. It makes a piss poor job of it and charges three times the going rate, taken by force. If I don't pay for it, I go to prison.
Use a freedom of information request to find out how much an MP claims on expenses. It will be refused.
Use a freedom of Information request to find out what really happened over Iraq. It will be refused.
Why should I be filmed? By what right do they film me? I haven't done anything wrong and if I have, charge me and I'll have my day in court. Guilty until proved innocent.
The State doesn't trust us, we are now ALL suspects. They take our faces, our dna, our fingerprints. Why? What did we do wrong?
Governments should fear their people, people should never fear their governments.
646 of them, 60 MILLION of us. About time they were reminded.
Remember when we all laughed at the Greeks for arresting the British plane spotters? Britain would never arrest people for taking photos the press said laughingly. Well who's laughing now?
This is a bit scary Iain
ReplyDeleteHilarious Iain.
ReplyDeleteThe Lives of Others (Das Leben der Anderen) is an award winning 2006 film about the Stasi in East Germany, yet the lessons from the film has striking parallels with Great Britain in 2009The crucial difference is that East Germany was a nightmare state, whose leadership was politically committed to the utter destruction of liberal democratic values. Pro-democracy dissenters were imprisoned and tortured by the state. There was one Stasi member for every 150 East Germans.
By contrast, there really are jihadist terrorists who are determined to murder as many people as they possibly can. They explain, quite openly, that they're doing so in defence of a political system that denies democracy, equality, and fundamental human rights.
So, disagree with 42 days or with the Home Secretary browsing our porn watching habits.
But, seriously, don't compare the United Kingdom to East Germany.
Ballot Boxes are interfered with
ReplyDeleteVoting registers go missing
The Police can kill innocent people and get away with it
You can be put in prison for 42 days on pure suspicion
You can be put in prison indefinitely on the word of a politician
The State can torture people
Your children are monitored at School by Political Officers
Their behaviour is logged on a State database for their entire lives
Your innocent fingerprints, iris scans and biometrics are held by the State
You do not have the right to remain silent
You are watched on 4 million CCTV cameras
You may not photograph the Police
The media is controlled by the State
You do not have the right to protest peacefully
Curfews exist for entire communities
Your travel movements are logged and monitored
Who you vote for is logged and monitored
Your shopping habits are studied and logged by the State
Your emails and telephone conversations are recorded by the State
Your passport can be withdrawn at the whim of the State
Government agencies can use lie detector tests on you.
Name the country.
The East Germans were amateurs
Unnecessary slur on the Daily Mail towards the end, I thought. The Mail has done more than most media outfits to opppose this kind of snooping.
ReplyDeleteThe East Germans were amateursAs the Left of the political spectrum segues into Ahmedinijad and Chavez worship, the Right shuffles off into Alex Jones territory.
ReplyDelete"But, seriously, don't compare the United Kingdom to East Germany."
ReplyDelete...or we will kick in your door, intern you, take your PC, imply all manner of unspeakable wrongdoings to smear you without your recourse to open court and then when everyone has forgotten you were innocent, kick you back out onto the street without a penny, a phone, a life or a friend in the world.
Thanks, Iain, for this. I might well just do a "track changes" version of the trailer, only adjusting a little here and a little there, just as I was able to do today with regards to "Boiler Rooms".
But, seriously, don't compare the United Kingdom to East Germany.
ReplyDeleteNo, The Stazi would be very hurt?
David T makes a good point - the UK government is as detached as some of the communist regiemes pre 1989. One just had to watch the brillent insight into that world on the recent BBC production on Communism - Three programs that opened a window on that Political system.
ReplyDeleteLabour have presided over sleaze, corruption and incomptence.
Labour Labour Labour - Out Out Out!
Presumably the Dale version of Downfall was the version to end all versions?
ReplyDeleteExcellent !
ReplyDeleteDavid T - The only difference between the UK and East Germany is a matter of time.
Anti-terrorist laws used to spy on children, dog fouling and when you put your bin out ? Please don't tell me 'those who have done nothing wrong have nothing to fear' anymore..
David T ... maybe you could explain that to the 12 supposed terrorists, 'perpetrators' of this 'big imminent terrorist attack ... or the 144 protestors arrested before the protest ... or Damian Green ... etc etc.
ReplyDeleteIf your terrorists are really determined to murder as many of us as they can ... have you asked yourself why they are not?
lt is so easy to achieve. lt takes virtually no planning at all because they need no escape plan. They don't intend to survive. So where are the attacks?
No l haven't forgot 7/7 but neither have l forgot the 'troubles' where over 2,200 died and many more casualties. Yet, we didn't run around destroying the very fabric of the UK as we are doing now.
lf terrorists wanted to attack this country, they would ... and there is virtually nothing we could do to stop them.
So, ask yourself 'why not?' ... and please don't insult my intelligence by saying it's the implementation of the current Anti-Terrorism Laws.
The only attacks that the citizens of the UK face are by our own Government on democracy, equality, and fundamental human rights ... the very same targets as your quoted jihadist terrorists!
I don't usually go along with Old Holborn, but (with some reservations) he is right.
ReplyDeleteI don't really believe the Tories will act any differently.
The Heresiarch
ReplyDeleteI agree - party members with comfortable dachas in Tuscany are much more likely to support this overbearing government than the Mail, which has often spoken out about this creeping state control.
Quite good but too many big caption gaps for me.
ReplyDeleteOh right. Just like East Germany. Watch out Old Holborn, you will be arrested at dawn as you would have been in the Communist countries if you had written that. Yes, yes, yes, the gaols are groaning with dissident journalists - you know all those people who dare not criticize the government in our "state controlled media".
ReplyDeleteSome people here are so obsessed with themselves (that is the polite way of putting it) that they never bother to find out anything else at all. Even if you have seen that film you clearly have not understood anything about it.
Reminds me of people who opposed Weimar Germany because they thought there was no difference between its leaders and the Nazis. They learned the truth fast but it was too late.
So remind me again, why do so many of your nuttier respondents so loathe Shami Chakrabarti and Henry Porter?
ReplyDeleteAnd I agree, I see no signs (with the exception of ditching ID cards) of the Tories promising to act any differently.
Anti-terrorist laws used to spy on children, dog fouling and when you put your bin out ? Oh, this is so pathetic.
ReplyDeleteThis isn't even up to the level of Singapore!!
You discredit those who struggled and sometimes lost their lives in the fight against Stalinism.
Laughable tinfoil hatted rubbish.
ReplyDeleteDavid T ... is that all you can come up with? ... doggies, kids and wheelybins answer? ... pass it on to Jacqui, no doubt she'll use it. ;-)
ReplyDeleteAt April 28, 2009 11:49 AM , Helen said...
ReplyDeleteOh right. Just like East Germany. Watch out Old Holborn, you will be arrested at dawn as you would have been in the Communist countries if you had written that. Yes, yes, yes, the gaols are groaning with dissident journalists - you know all those people who dare not criticize the government in our "state controlled media".
===
Sally Murrer!
So the people who clearly think we are 'tinfoil hatters' aren't worried that we can be compared with Signapore on freedom terms? These are truly worrying times.
ReplyDeleteI go to mainlando to mainland Europe often on holidays as I'm sure many people here do.
European countries don't monitor their citizens everywhere they go with CCTV cameras. The UK does.
European countries don't have an oppressive state apparatus attempting to monitor every piece of people's lives. The UK does.
European countries don't have vast centralised dossiers on their own citizens. The UK does. This kind of thing is what fascist, communist and other totalitarian regimes do. Not free countries.
I'm not constantly worried in Europe that I might get interrogated for taking photographs in cities. I am in the UK.
Other countries in mainland Europe have their problems but at least we don't have a system of government so authoritarian, so undemocratic, that Russian journalists who lived in the Soviet Union compare it to Communist Russia.
That many people are making similar points must worry people, mustn't it?
Oh yes, opposition MP's arrested IN Parliament
ReplyDeleteChildrens fingerprints taken AT SCHOOL.
Belmarsh still has prisoners who have been there for years who have never even been charged...
Most East Germans were happy. The State provided a job and a house. Our State doesn't even do that unless you are from Somalia.
Wake up people. Do you really think Guido would have been allowed to publish those emails if he was a tabloid journalist? He'd have had a D notice slapped on him faster than a set of handcuffs.
If you believe you are freer than the people of East Germany, then prove it. Go and protest outside our Parliament. You WILL be arrested, you DNA and fingerprints WILL be taken by force and you WILL be on the "criminal" register.
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free
Well, I hope this doesn't reflect the thinking of sane Tories. You get loonies in all parties, I suppose.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, the DDR didn't have any sort of Freedom of Information legislation - legislation that I've made use of myself to look into abuses of governmental power.
Nor did it have an independent judiciary with a Human Rights Act - although of course you're free to argue that this is "rule by liberal judges who have gone soft in the head", as Tories certainly used to do, back in the day.
Neither was there an Information Commissioner, with responsibility for protecting privacy rights.
I could go on, but you get the general idea. To compare the UK with the DDR is utterly obscene. To compare it with Singapore is also absurd - I'll introduce you to some Singaporean liberals, and you can see what they have to say on the subject of respective levels of freedom in the two countries.
You've got a problem with CCTVs? What are you, some sort of primitive tribesman from Papua New Guinea, terrified that your soul will be sold? Do you wear a paper bag on your head when you go out, for fear that strangers might look at you *with their bare eyes* rather than through a TV camera?
The bottom line is this. If you want the State to do lots of things - like provide healthcare, education, benefits and so on - you really do need to collect a fair amount of information. You can introduce legislation to curb how long it is kept, and what can be done with it - and there have been too few safeguards in that respect in some areas, and too many in others - but the only way you can do without the State collecting information is this. Roll back the frontiers of the state. Stop providing benefits. Let power be exercised exclusively by the private sector, and have your beef with them.
Of course, this is what Tories used to argue for... although I suspect you're all welfarists, like us good social democrats, nowadays.
I thought it was quite tame actually. Where was Hattie Hatemenperson rounding up all white males for extermination?
ReplyDelete"If you want the State to do lots of things - like provide healthcare, education, benefits and so on - you really do need to collect a fair amount of information"
ReplyDeleteI don't. It makes a piss poor job of it and charges three times the going rate, taken by force. If I don't pay for it, I go to prison.
Use a freedom of information request to find out how much an MP claims on expenses. It will be refused.
Use a freedom of Information request to find out what really happened over Iraq. It will be refused.
Why should I be filmed? By what right do they film me? I haven't done anything wrong and if I have, charge me and I'll have my day in court. Guilty until proved innocent.
The State doesn't trust us, we are now ALL suspects. They take our faces, our dna, our fingerprints. Why? What did we do wrong?
Governments should fear their people, people should never fear their governments.
646 of them, 60 MILLION of us. About time they were reminded.
"I don't. It makes a piss poor job of it and charges three times the going rate, taken by force. If I don't pay for it, I go to prison."
ReplyDeleteFair enough. At least you're consistent.
Remember when we all laughed at the Greeks for arresting the British plane spotters? Britain would never arrest people for taking photos the press said laughingly. Well who's laughing now?
ReplyDelete"jojoko said...
ReplyDeleteWell who's laughing now?"
Not Bob Monkhouse or his fans. "They laughed when I said I wanted to become a comedian. They're not laughing now."
"That many people are making similar points must worry people, mustn't it?"
ReplyDeleteMuch like many kids telling similar ghost stories must scare kids.
Except, sadly, in this case the scared kids are grown-ups.