Click on image to enlargeThis is Labour's Get Out the Vote leaflet in London. Bizarrely it encourages voters to put Ken as both their first and second preference. On the face of it, they misunderstand the very electoral system they imposed. But when you think about the logic of doing this they must be really scared that many of their voters might put Boris second and therefore boost his chances of winning on second preferences. Or could there be another reason?
By the way, have you been out to vote yet? In Bromley, it seems, people can't wait to get out and do their bit to oust Livingstone. My spy tells me queueing up to vote at the Princess Plain Polling Station in Bromley Common and Keston ward. This is encouraging because in 2004 the turnout in areas like this was very low.
I'm also told that in one North London Borough (electoral law prevents me from telling you which one), at the opening of postal votes, Boris was on 69%. In 2004 at the opening of postal votes Steve Norris was in the mid 40s. Very encouraging.
Keep the news coming throughout the day.
Typical Ken - he spends the whole election telling Lib Dims to put him as their second preference, but asks Labour voters to put him first and second.
ReplyDeleteMaybe he does want to win afterall -I thought he looked like he actually couldn't really care if he won or lost.
This should piss the Greens off. Wasn't Livingstone asking his people to give them their second preference?
ReplyDeleteKen said that his supporters should put Sian Berry as second pref, which of course won't make the blindest bit of difference because only second pref votes from eliminated candidates go forward.
ReplyDeleteQueues in Lambeth too.
From London Elects "If you vote for the same candidate for first and second choice, only one vote will be counted. You cannot improve the chances of your chosen candidate by giving them your first and second choice votes."
ReplyDeleteIncidentally it doesn't say which one...
If they complete the ballot papaer as instructed, surely this would be a spoilt paper-I can't believe the rules allow you to put the same person as first and second preference.
ReplyDeleteCan you give the same name for your first and second preference or does it count as a spoilt ballot?
ReplyDeleteWhere's Bromey? Is that where the Bromide comes from?
ReplyDeleteHow do you know what the postal votes say? Where is it announced?
ReplyDeleteWhat a twat!
ReplyDeleteI suspect the reason we aren't presented with a single grid and asked to mark "1" and "2" is that the computer counting system is rubbish.
ReplyDeletePresumably (someone correct me if I'm wrong), your vote only transfers to your second preference candidate if they don't make it into the final two, right? So if you voted 1. Ken 2. Boris, Boris wouldn't benefit from that second preference, buf if you voted 1. Sian Berry 2. Boris, it would transfer ...
ReplyDelete... otherwise you'd have a mad situation where a vote for 1. Ken 2. Boris would exactly cancel itself out, by giving one vote to each in the final runoff. That surely can't be how it works.
Does is matter where Ken or Birs's second preferences go given that they will face the final run-off?
ReplyDeleteNo mens sana and trumpeter lanfried, putting the same person as both first and second preference is not a spoilt paper. And Iain, there is no way a voter putting Ken as their first choice and Boris as their second can help Boris to get elected unless Ken fails to finish in the first two, which is pretty unlikely.
ReplyDeleteInitially, all the first preferences are counted. If one of the candidates receives more than 50% of the first preferences, they win and the second preferences are ignored. If no candidate reaches that level, all but the top two candidates are knocked out. Any votes for a candidate who is knocked out are then reallocated based on second preference, provided the second preference goes to one of the two remaining candidates. The second preferences for the two remaining candidates (almost certainly Boris and Ken) are ignored. Whoever has the most votes at the end of this process wins.
Putting the same person as first and second preference has the same effect as not voting for a second preference - if your candidate is knocked out after first preferences are counted, your vote will not count in the second round.
Unless there is a real surprise, it doesn't really matter who Ken and Boris supporters put as second preference - those votes will not be counted. There is no way Ken voters can help Boris to win or vice versa.
By the way, if the above isn't clear there is an animation on London Elects to explain the whole thing.
Peter Harrison @ 10.00 a.m. Thanks. Very clear. Not sure why this complexity is needed but I suppose it means that everybody has a vote (be it 1st or 2nd pref.) which 'counts'.
ReplyDeleteIt's not spoilt because the intention of the voter is clear: their vote is for Ken Livingstone. As others have said, the 2nd vote is pointless because it can only be counted if Ken is knocked out.
ReplyDeleteAgain, as others have commented, the Greens should be hopping mad. Their was a clear deal to encourage supporters to give their 2nd preferences for each other.
It was a pointless deal for the Greens, and they now seem not even to have got even the slim pickings offered.
Queues in Westminster too, at around 8am.
The Independent was of interest this morning!
ReplyDeleteobviously, they didn't want anyone to appear to be second choice or all sorts of stupid people would just follow that thinking it was ken's preference and besides which people like you would have printed their leaflet saying 'are they saying vote green second? ho ho ho'
ReplyDeletereally for someone clever you can be remarkably twattish at times.
If you leave the Second Preference column blank, which technically you are allowed to, then what is stop a corrupt insider at the polling station etc. from filling it in fraudulently, in favour of their favoured candidate ?
ReplyDeleteThe optical scanning equipment is not going to detect any differences in shape, style or colour of the two crosses.
Voting Ken 1, Boris 2 won't help Boris one iota unless Ken got eliminated. If that were the case, there would be more Ken 1, Brian 2 votes and I suspect Boris winning would be the least of Ken's worries!
ReplyDeleteNevertheless, it does sound like a spectacular act of bad faith on Labour's part given their deal with the Greens and it is helping to spread ignorance about how the electoral system works.
asquith said...
ReplyDelete"The Independent was of interest this morning!"
That could never be true.
By leaving the second preference blank or by voting for the same candidate for first and second options, means that the ballot papers will have to be manually adjudicated - therefore thanks Ken, the count will take longer.
ReplyDeleteBlue Eyes said...
ReplyDelete"I suspect the reason we aren't presented with a single grid and asked to mark "1" and "2" is that the computer counting system is rubbish"
Actually from experience the computer counting system works fine as long a people number their order correctly.
What a I see causing a problem a la Scotland is there
a) being a first and second preference column.
b) these being adjacent to each other.
With the Scottish election the list and Constituency vote were on the same sheet and people marking two x's in one column, none in the other or marking a 1,2 in one column not in the other effectively spoilt their ballots in one vote or the other.
The same may apply here. If people only mark in the right hand column there is no first preference therefore a spoilt ballot.
Problem is Labour never really have got the hang of proportional voting systems and their nuances. They then do all they can to confuse the poor voters themselves to make even more of a mockery of the ignorance (or is it?)
"By leaving the second preference blank or by voting for the same candidate for first and second options, means that the ballot papers will have to be manually adjudicated"
ReplyDeleteNot true.
"By leaving the second preference blank or by voting for the same candidate for first and second options, means that the ballot papers will have to be manually adjudicated"
ReplyDeleteNot true.
SORRY THAT IS TRUE, THAT IS WHY THE COUNT TAKES SO LONG. THEY FLASH THEM UP ON SCREENS AND THAT PROCESS TAKES HOURS AND IS AS INTERESTING AS WATCHING PAINT DRY !
Ken is not a stupid man. There must be a good reason for the seemingly illogical graphic he is circulating. I'm really quite curious.
ReplyDeleteWill we hear more of this I wonder?
@ anon 3.08pm
ReplyDeletePerhaps the fact that you place your votes in a secure ballot box...
In any event, polling station staff could scribble out your original vote and put in another one, the computer would throw it up for human adjudication, but it would be interpreted as a voter having changed their mind...
Some of you people are so ignorant of the political process.
"By leaving the second preference blank or by voting for the same candidate for first and second options, means that the ballot papers will have to be manually adjudicated"
ReplyDeleteNot true.
"SORRY THAT IS TRUE, THAT IS WHY THE COUNT TAKES SO LONG. THEY FLASH THEM UP ON SCREENS AND THAT PROCESS TAKES HOURS AND IS AS INTERESTING AS WATCHING PAINT DRY !"
It is not true. That may have been the case in London last time (I wasn't involved then) but this time such a vote is totally acceptable and would not be sent for human adjudication. That process is only used where the voters intention is not clear.