Monday, February 11, 2008
There's One Word for Them: Traitors
The Sun reveals this morning that British spy planes have picked up the voices of Taliban fighters speaking with Brummie and Bradford accents. These people are presumably British passport holders and are fighting British soldiers. When they are caught they should be charged with treason. There was a time when they would faced being hanged. To be honest, it's what they deserve.
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117 comments:
This doesn't somehow ring true to me.
How would you pick up a Brummie accent from a jet ? They would have to be saying 'Bosting views..' pretty loudly ?
No, they should simply be handed over, bound and gagged, to the 'other side', to the people whose wives and children they had so casually brutalised, bullied, maimed and killed. Justice would be much exacted in a far slower and more sadistic manner. Film could then be posted, in exactly the same way as al-Qaeda proudly posts their executions.
I happen to have about my person 100 yards of finest hemp rope and a coloured hood. Just say the time and place ...............
I wouldn't believe everything you read in newspapers.
Well actually 2 words: presumed traitors. Neither you nor the Sun know that they are British citizens. The likely language of communication between Pakistani and Arabic Taleban fighters is likely to be English, and the accent of the Pakistanis is as likely to be Northern English as it is to be RP - which reminds me of a joke about a Pakistani who makes a round trip by train to visit friends and family in Pakistan, but which is too long to bother with here.
There was an interesting article in the New Scientist about the way people from around the world are inducted into this crazy extremism .It said that the Web was very important because what tended to happen , especially amongst males, was that their inner prejudices were refracted through a magnifying lens formed by other similarly inclined we punters and the whole medium leant itself to clusters of insanity.
I thought there was a lot in this , in the right wing bloghasphere , people express extreme opinions and they are reinforced by others and it all develops into a tribal blood lust as we see in the reaction over “ How do we solve a problem like Sharia “. I don’t say it’s the same but I felt a tad uncomfortable and I have certainly felt encouraged into extremism by fearsome demagogues like Iain Dale and Cassilis
So before one gets into calling for these people to be beheaded on camera perhaps we should be aware if how easy it is to lose a sense of proportion when talking to like minded others in virtual space.
I would call them traitors I lunatics . But I bet the lunacy began on Poltical web sites .......
Hasn't traitor been deleted from the lexicon?
It must make it easier to pick up what the Talibs are saying, if half of them are speaking English.
They should be deprived of their UK citizenship as a matter of course.
Mind you, quite a few young Moslem lads go on a Talibender and then realise it was all a mistake, and want to go home to Mum.
These ones make excellent spies, or advocates to their peer group of finding peaceful ways to handle these issues.
Don't hang em all. Try to keep the useful ones.
First it was the police apparently maintaining an illegal bugging operation on Labour MPs, and now the Sun appears to have listening devices in our Spy Planes.
You really couldn't make it up.
But then, seeing as how the report came to us from such a respected bastion of objective reporting, perhaps you could?
Just a quiet weekend for real news stories I guess.
The death penalty for a Brummie accent does sound a touch harsh.
But serriously there is an underlying problem here. There is a group of people in the UK who hold UK citizenship but owe their allegiance to a foreign power. ( And I'm not talking about the Europhiles - on this occasion ).
The problem will get worse as more of these people come back to the UK. The risk is that of a Northern Ireland type situation developing.
A calm, just and thought through response is needed.
There are enough Islamic utopias around the world to expel these people to. We should develop the legal framework to do that. ( After any just punishment that is necessary in cases of attempted murder etc ).
Its time to be open that only one state will be tolerated in the United Kingdom (Rowan Williams take note). Those who owe their allegiance's to other states that make claims on our territory or wage war upon us must be expelled.
A far better solution...a gunship mounted mini-gun or baring that a nice bomb or two from a jet. Why waste the man-power to capture these evil scumbags when you know they are terrorists anyway?
The rope is to good for them. Of course when the USA has the indignation to do something about these and picks them up, we have the BBC campaigning for their release...
Everyone remember the Tipton Taliban? With relatives of Labour Councillors going to fight the cause of Allah??
Why are British-Born Taliban worse than non-British Taliban?
Am I a worse person if I'm a traitor and murder a British person than if I murdered a French person? If it was India trying to keep the peace in Afghanistan, would the actions of these British Taliban be any better?
Are the Germans who fled Germany to fight with the British Army to be looked down upon because they fought a war against their own countrymen?
The Taliban are traitors against humanity, there are any number of reasons to despise them. Their nationality is utterly unimportant.
actually newmania makes a very valid point about websites such as this acting as refracting lenses - or even perhaps 'try your strength machines'.
About a year ago a started visiting the Tory blogosphere to see whether there was a place for me, as a traditional Liberal (social liberal, economic conserative) disappointed with the LDs. In brief, some of the Tory blogs made it clear to me that there wasn't, even although I remain impressed by some of the party leadrship - Oliver Letwin, Ken Clarke, Chris Grayling and DC.
It is inevitable and just part of a multi-cultural society.
"I bet the lunacy began on poltical web sites ......."
Newmania is right. The reinforcing effect, especially of the 'extremist blogger', on ones own views and inner prejudices is very powerful.
Too much exposure to such political sites can be bad for rational thought.
alex
The language used is likely to be Pashto.There are some Pashtuns living in the north of England or Pathans as the English call them.
Pashtuns are the second largest ethnic group in Pakistan.
Tory encourages breaking the Geneva Convention shocka!!!
No reason to doubt the fundamental truth of this story. Nimrod aircraft can intercept radio transmissions and have linguists on board. Agreed, if a UK citizen is fighting against UK Armed Forces, they should be dealt with - I would suggest removing their entitlement to a passport and deporting them. However the reality is that they will be treated far more sympathetically - probably better than returning UK troops! Just to note, I doubt there are many instances of this happening, and there is likely to be a bit of hyperbole in the Sun's article.
Alex said...
Well actually 2 words: presumed traitors. Neither you nor the Sun know that they are British citizens. The likely language of communication between Pakistani and Arabic Taleban fighters is likely to be English, and the accent of the Pakistanis is as likely to be Northern English as it is to be RP - which reminds me of a joke about a Pakistani who makes a round trip by train to visit friends and family in Pakistan, but which is too long to bother with here.
February 11, 2008 12:01 PM
Enjoyed your joke. Your use of the words 'likely language' gives your game away .... you don't actually know! Never mind. It may interest you to learn that I and most other people can tell if a person is speaking English with an accent of a native country, e.g French, German, Italian, Russian et al. Some people can tell Americans from Canadians and Aussies from New Zealanders. Some can tell which West Indian island people originate from. Even more amazing is that people trained to do so can detect which part of the UK people come from e.g Yorkshire, Lancashire, Devon and cities too, Liverpool, Bristol, London, et al. Wow!
We don't know that these people are in fact British citizens but you don't pick an accent up as 'you pass through' a location.
Anyway, time you made your way back to your classroom, byeeeee (in Brummie)!
Alex said...
Why are British-Born Taliban worse than non-British Taliban?
Am I a worse person if I'm a traitor and murder a British person than if I murdered a French person? If it was India trying to keep the peace in Afghanistan, would the actions of these British Taliban be any better?
Are the Germans who fled Germany to fight with the British Army to be looked down upon because they fought a war against their own countrymen?
The Taliban are traitors against humanity, there are any number of reasons to despise them. Their nationality is utterly unimportant.
February 11, 2008 12:21 PM
OK you've had your fun, NOW GO BACK TO SCHOOL OR I'LL TELL YOUR AMAH!
Hyperbole in a Sun article? You're kidding right?? It is my daily gospel and Murdoch is my No 1 deity.
I'll allow for a jet lag issue in terms of the Tory Boy Blogger.
I see the apologists are at it already.
Doubting the truth of the story! Doubting that technology exists! Doubting because they do not want to believe it!
Believe me, the technology does exists.That this story is more than likely true and we have a major problem with an enemy within.
Tapestry is right, if you can catch these people then you may be able to 'turn' them. Personally I just hope they are killed in action! by our boys.
Alex of course their nationality is important. Its is that nationality that protects them, feeds and clothes them. Here we get to the point. Can you really be English or British and be a Muslim. In Guantanamo Bay the disinterest in nominally English subjects shows we do make the distinction in real life
In peacetime we pretend its possible to be all things but in wartime the US , for example rounded up all those of Japanese extraction using census information , illegally , and put them in camps .Interestingly the Japanese were surprisingly supportive fearing that otherwise the cover of their community would be used by 5th columnists. Why are Muslims not supportive of measures required to weed their garden. They are the ones who will benefit , unless of course they are sympathetic ......
The answer surely has to be to start finding out which Muslims are on out side and which are our enemies I believe a show of will , would soon smoke out the trouble makers and those who simply wish to live a quiet life following their religion would have to take responsibility for pointing those who do not . Up to now this has been noticeably lacking and it is unacceptable that there is a tacit traitorousness among the entire Muslim Community.
In future perhaps we will know the best thing to do is not to let floods of people who have nothing in common with us in , in the first place .
The Man In A Shed calls for a calm just and thorough consideration of this problem. So without wishing to stir up bloodlusts I should just like to point out that East of Suez, the prefered method of executing rebels was to strap them to the muzzle of a loaded 12 pounder and then have Gunner Sugden light the blue touch paper and retire.
Alex:
Are the Germans who fled Germany to fight with the British Army to be looked down upon because they fought a war against their own countrymen?
----------------------------------
You are getting yourself in a lot of trouble here. Calm down dear!They are by definition traitors to their native country. We don't look down upon them but we regard them with suspicion. Why should they not change sides again? We cannot KNOW the real reason why they changed sides, only that they have done so. How can we ever again have total confidence in them?
I admire your fervour but your powers of analysis are in question.
Newmania. There is very little lunacy on this website. It is largely self-moderating, and that goes for a few other high-profile political blogs. But I take your point.
As for the topic..traitors..etc. I think Muzzies would take an opposing POV. They consider anyone of their number who tries to fit in with our way of life a traitor.
I will reprise some older facts.
"When asked, "Is Britain my country or their country?" only one in four say it is. Thirty percent of British Muslims would prefer to live under Sharia (Islamic religious) law than under British law. According to the report, "Half of those who express a preference for living under Sharia law say that, given the choice, they would move to a country governed by those laws."
Twenty-eight percent hope for the U.K. one day to become a fundamentalist Islamic state. This comports with last year's Daily Telegraph newspaper survey that found one-third of British Muslims believe that Western society is decadent and immoral and that Muslims should seek to end it.
The news is no less alarming on the question of freedom of speech. Seventy-eight percent support punishment for the people who earlier this year published cartoons featuring the Prophet Mohammed. Sixty-eight percent support the arrest and prosecution of those British people who "insult Islam." When asked if free speech should be protected, even if it offends religious groups, 62 percent of British Muslims say No, it should not." (CBS News)
And so on.
How can someone be a traitor if they fundamentally disagree that they are a.citizens of our country and b. hold any allegiance to it?
Islam does not acknowledge political statehood. Yes, they will use the infrastructure to gain power, but only in order to gain power. Once that is achieved, such things as democracy and freedom of speech - the very tools they use to perpetrate their evil - will be abolished.
We are at war with an idea, not a population. Any effort to distil the problem into Red Top headlines with Red Top solutions is a little bit naive.
(Welcome back Iain, you must be knackered)
strapworld said...
I see the apologists are at it already.
Doubting the truth of the story! Doubting that technology exists! Doubting because they do not want to believe it!
Believe me, the technology does exists.That this story is more than likely true and we have a major problem with an enemy within.
Tapestry is right, if you can catch these people then you may be able to 'turn' them. Personally I just hope they are killed in action! by our boys.
February 11, 2008 12:52 PM
----------------------------------
Right on! Do unto them lest ye be done to!
strapworld
Care to go to Afghanistan to check the story out.I'm sure The Sun will give you the fare.
These comments look like something from LGF.
Pedantically, isn't it HIGH treason, not just treason, to fight against your own country in time of war?
I agree with the general sentiment here - if found guilty, they deserve decades in prison. Or rather, they deserve something worse, but for pragmatic and humanitarian reasons it's better that they should spend most of the rest of their lives in jail.
Even if they are identified; no charges will be brought as "current legislation is insufficient"
The government are more concerned with making new laws that actually giving the resources necessary to enforce the ones we already have.
This comes after a week of stories about surveillance abuses by the authorities. A little dose of scepticism is quite justified.
Ah so now suddenly you're all in favour of the "surveillance society" eh?
I don't doubt this story, the technology has existed for a long time and it's not very surprising either.
We must hope that none survive to return to the UK. Remember it was fighters returning fron Chechnya and Afghanistan that formed the core of the bloody insurgency in Algeria.
Fcuk me, I'm with you on this one Ian! And having hung them deport their families too.
Alex come here at once and tidy your room! Throw those magazines away and put those soggy tissues down the toilet NOW!!
I do believe this falls under the legal definition of treason?
Mind you, at least they're in Afghanistan and not here...
Hallo Alex,
You back again for another drubbing?
It must be half term.
This story may well be true. I find it very depressing. The thought that British Citizens who may even have gone to the same school could be killing each other in Afghanistan.
Some will counter my indignation by saying 'It happens in Britain as well, except its called gang warfare.'
One thing I have to point out that many or all of the alleged British Taliban would think of themselves as traitors if they failed to go and fight in Afghanistan.
This of course means a total rejection of their identity as 'British Muslims'. I think there are 2 factors here. Firstly the rejection of the concept of the nation state in the ideology of Al Qaeda. Secondly the jihad against patriotism by the forces of the left in the UK.
So I imagine a situation wherein british muslim kids both at school and around the mosque are taught to reject their identity and that of their family & friends.
On the one hand they are taught to distrust authority and on the other to submit to the supreme authority of Islam.
Being a Brit with family in The Republic of Ireland I had a pretty conflicted sense of identity as a kid (during the 'troubles'). The challenges that some people in the muslim community now face appear worse; in the fundamental nature of the questions raised.
nearlyatory
I'm sorry some of us have put you off. If I mention a 'broad church' I hope you'll still give us a hearing. We will certainly listen to you.
Let us not be too hasty - these boys may have signed up to work for MI5...
Iain, I wouldn't want you on my jury! Sheesh!
11:43 - What jets have you been on? How about "none"? You are going by the noise plane engines make on the outside. YOu've never been on a plane. How pathetic.
Newmania. "Kill them anyway. God will know his own." Said about the same group of controlling nutcase thugs 900 years ago.
Finally, to those who cite the problem with deporting "British citizens", which one cannot do. I wish someone would lobby for us to adopt the Singapore sysem of citizenship which, like everything Singapore does, works and is pragmatic.
Born in Singapore of one or both foreign parents? You are not a citizen of Singapore. No appeals.
When you are 18 (?) you get to choose. If you choose to be a Singaporean, with the privilege of a Singapore passport and the protection of the Singapore government, you have to do national service. Several weeks a year until age 40, as do all male Singapore citizens. This can include danger zones. And you take an oath of allegiance. Break it and you can pack your bags because you'll be thrown out of the country - legally because you broke your oath.
Iain
I’m sure that your post will go down well if you are on the short list for adoption by a constituency dominated by Tufton Bufton/Herbert Gussett type old school Tories. Quite how it fits with Dave’s compassionate conservatism it’s not for me to say…
Iain, I thought you were supposed to be CENTRE-right, and reflect on even serious problems with a thoughtfulness and a step back unlike the ranters on the right-wing. Whether you are right or wrong on issues like this, you should be rising above the vindictiveness and angry terms.
Erm, listening can absolutely be done. Remember the people who were arrested on the M6 just hours after the Glasgow Airport attacks?
They were tracked by one those matt black Britten Norman lslander spy planes that we are not meant to know about. The Guardian rasn the story a few months ago.
They were used in Northern Island but are now on the mainland.
try this on the planes
http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,,2181436,00.html
Richard Norton-Taylor
Tuesday October 2, 2007
The Guardian
The intelligence agencies are using military aircraft equipped with sophisticated surveillance equipment to eavesdrop on and monitor the movements of suspected terrorists, the Guardian has learned.
The Britten-Norman Islander is already being used by the police to combat dangerous driving, trace missing persons, and find escaped prisoners or stolen vehicles. It was used by the army in Northern Ireland, and is now being deployed in counter-terrorist operations when, it is understood, it is flown by an RAF crew.
Officials familiar with the aircraft said yesterday they could not comment on the operations. The Ministry of Defence also declined to comment.
Well Iain I can tell you have spent time in the US. You are sounding like a Tory and I agree with you.
The problem is it is the appeasers that are running things. a la 1939, bury your head in the sand and it will go away. but of course it wont.
or try this....
http://www.worcesternews.co.uk/news/wnnewslatest/display.var.2031171.0.mystery_plane_spotted_circling_city.php
Mystery plane spotted circling city
By James Connell
A MYSTERIOUS plane has once again been seen flying over Worcester but defence chiefs say they don't think it is anything to do with them.
Matthew Brown, 45, of Salters Close, Blackpole, Worcester, said he believed the plane was circling at about 10,000 feet and suspected it could be a De Havilland Canada DHC-6 Twin Otter or a Britten-Norman Islander.
Iain, I think I'll put your massive over-reaction down to jet lag.
Your post really is a perfect example of a classic knee jerk reaction.
Calm down dear !
:)
Caught? be serious. We don't have capital punishment, and if it does exist on the statute books for treason,then you can guarantee that 1) the EU won't allow it and 2) the bleeding hearts brigade of leftie do gooders will scream blue bloody murder.
The treacherous beggars need to be killed in action.
It amazes me that after so much evidence of an Islamist enemy born and bred in this country so many people remain so sceptical. The Mikes Place bombers in Tel Aviv (who should have set alarm bells ringing much earlier); Richard Reid; 7/7; the fertiliser bomb plotters. When MI5 talk about the level of threat it is a very well informed assessment. And Ed Hussain knows what he's talking about. Unfortunately criminally misleading programmes like the Power of Nightmares, which make out a 'climate of fear' has been manufactured by Western politicians has fooled people. I don't know about the veracity of the story in the Sun - but in the context of other intelligence it is entirely plausible. We have a problem. We have a very serious problem.
Why are ABC and CBS being cited here and elsewhere as authorities on the wishes and views of British Muslims? Can anyone, Newmania?, provide a link to their methodology and results?
Well, like the Tipton Taliban and those 'British residents' that the state made such a fuss about getting back, these people were obviously on a Gap year or something like that and just strayed into these areas. It's easily done given that was the excuse, sorry, reason given by Brit/OZ/American etc citizens initially captured. As I understand things, there were plenty of these 'ex pat' innocents given a swift lead injection at the time.
Anyway...................back to the musings about Pakistani inbreds on R4...I dunno, what a country!
How could you possibly suggest hanging them,theirs a Labour M.P.somewhere who will be counting on their vote for his majority.
WW cites percentages of islamics who say they want sharia in Britain, who say they feel no loyalty to Britain, and so on.
And those percentages are high, but not relevant, except as a guideline, because those who said they wanted sharia in our country and wanted to see Britain destroyed or whatever, were the stupid 50% or so who couldn't think fast enough to tick the Don't Know box. The real figures, I am convinced, are much higher.
Indeed, you cannot be a practising muslim without seeking to extend sharia because it's their god's law and their god's command that they spread it, by word of mouth or point of the sword, over the whole earth.
British people continually fail to understand this point.
Muslims have been brought up from birth to be utterly convinced that there is only one legitimate community in the world, and that is the umnah. They do not recognise national borders. How long is it going to take you people to understand this? The vast majority of islamics in our country, whether immigrants who never bothered to learn our language or adopt our dress because it's not 'legitimate' in allah's eyes anyway, to those born in Britain - the vast majority owe no allegiance to Britain because they do not recognise Britain. They are set on making this entity part of the umnah.
You have to understand these points to see how to proceed, yet you fail to do so. And the stiff-necked, defensive, somewhat defective Gordon Brown will never get his head round it. (Blair knew, incidentally, which is why he sucked up.)
Jack Straw is equally stupid, if not more so. He thinks he is milking the islamics for votes, but they know they are milking him for sovereignty.
Reflect on this, and you can see the roadmap.
Apologising (left-liberal style) for those who want to destroy you, because they are seeking to destroy you, is pure nihilism.
Nihilism is the lowest form of life in the universe.
Trouble is where I live all the cabbies speak with brummie accents and trying to understand them is bad enough.
they aren't traitors or Islamic fundametalists....
they are "violent extremists" according the Home Office
I think it will all turn out to be an innocent mistake, these lads will have gone for family weddings or to further their religious education and their minibus driver took a wrong turn. They will be welcomed back by the authorities (Would that those same authorities would welcome back our service men and women) and will be fully entitled to all benefits of UK citizenship as if nothing had happened. Seriously let us not forget that a Nimrod crew lost their lives on such an intelligence gathering operation, we have the technology, we just need safe aircraft to carry the equipment.
The Nimrod that crashed a year or so back was engaged on similar electronic intelligence gathering, again without officially having supposed to be there.
Iain, I think you are leaping on the Sun's story too quickly. It sounds like it is utterly made up to stir up trouble at home.
Are we
The Sun is hardly the most impartial observer.
Joel
“How do we solve a problem like Sharia“? - Any dhim will do...
Es super templates
Absolutely, presumed traitors, specially coming from The Sun. Also, I don't think is a good idea you advocate the death penalty in your blog, you are a bigger man than them Iain.
Perhaps the biggest crime this government will be guilty of is failing to close down the Muslim Issue once and for all.
Somebody used the word "appeasement". I am old enough to know what that means.
Islamofacism should be shut down now, on campuses, in the streets, in Bradford in London, on the internet, everywhere. Whereever it is it must be stopped and stopped now, and appeasers, like the AB of C, given the finger, big and strong.
It's not just an irritant anymore, its a threat to the security and wellbing of our society and the nasty, evil, inbred (yes we can say that now)enemies of our state should be rounded up and sorted.
What will happen is that the newspapers will find out who they are and interview their friends and neighbours, who will all say: "I am completely gob-smacked. I never suspected a thing. He was always so nice to his mother." Then it will be discovered that they have been paid tens of thousands of pounds each in state benefits, and that they used the money to go on educational visits to Pakistan. Eventually, Gordon Brown will be forced to comment, and will say that it all goes to show that we should listen more carefully to the marginalised youngsters in our ethnic communities, and he will promise more money for after-school clubs. The Muslim Council of Great Britain will say nothing. Finally, the Archbishop of Canterbury will use his Easter message to call for the young men's safe return "home".
The problem here is, most of the treason acts and punishments for such traitors were either repealed or amended by the Crime and Disorder Act 1998.
The reason..........sleazy UK politicians giving away our sovereignty to the European Union wished to protect their own lousy necks.
You don't need spy planes to determine that the political class in the UK are the "STUDENTS" of self preservation
It's the Sun. What chance they just invented the whole story? Wouldn't be the first time.
Good God Iain, it seems that you ARE a Tory after all! I was having doubts!
Anon @ 1:34
Sorry sunshine, but just how do you equate legitimate surveillance of the enemy in a war zone with spying on your own people. Unless of course you regard the British public as "the enemy".
Then again given the tone of your posts, I'd surmise you have some connection with the current apparat, which means in all likelihood you do regard Britain and the British as your enemy.
Anon @12:37 (who may be the same troll)
Try reading documents before you bandy their names around. Neither the Geneva nor the Hague Conventions covers treason or traitors.
Indeed the Hague Convention could be interpreted to allow the summary execution of all captured Taliban. They fight under no legitimate authority and wear no distinguishable uniform after all.
On a lighter note, I think the entire Muslim Council or whatever that outfit's called, are products of generations of inbreeding. What else could explain that Bari could seriously walk around in that tragic syrup?
Someone has to grasp the nettle, and it will not be David Cameron, but there has to be mass reverse immigration applied at some point. Hundreds of thousands of these people are here not as immigrants but as fifth columnists. That is why they don't integrate. It's not worth the time and effort given that in a few years, the "muslim community" will populate huge swathes of Britain (and parts of Europe, except Germany, which never gave them citizenship) and they will indeed not only have their Stone Age sharia courts,but will carry out their own punishments.
Eventually, if nothing is done to stop this advance, the indigenous peoples of Britain and Europe will be subsumed - especially now Gordon Brown is encouraging bigamy, which is illegal, which means they'll breed even faster with four breed cows. (That was the idea of polygamy in the first place: fast breeding of warriors.) It still applies and the prime minister of Britain is furthering this end.
Canterbury performed an excellent service. I hope someone has the nerve to act on his blethering.
Manfarang.1.18pm
Thank you for the kind invitation to go to Afghanistan. I doubt that the Sun would pay for me.
However there is absolutely no need for me to go. As you see, dear Manfarang, my son is there! Fighting for us within the British Army!
I have done my duty for Queen and Country. Have you?
Perhaps, you would like to seek assistance from The Sun to send you there. You could do a Ross Kemp! - but somehow, from your impertinent messgae, I doubt it!
ps Verity,
Actually the phrase was used by Simon de Monfort, Earl of Leicester, during the Albigensian Crusade against the Cathars of south western France. It was his answer when asked to do with the population of a beseiged town who were a mixture of Cathars and Catholics.
no doubt they will still be voting Labour by post!!
mario lopez areu - If you, of whom we have never heard, are to give lessons in running a blog to successful international blogger Iain Dale, could you be a dear and learn how to punctuate? You're obviously a political illiterate, but you also come across as someone who cannot construct a sentence, never mind a coherent thought.
Yes, Remittance Man, I knew that and assumed that everyone else does, too, which is why I didn't explain.
After I clicked Publish, I realised I'd got the quote wrong. It's not, "Kill them anyway" (which is, in retrospect, rather weak), but "Kill them all! God will know his own!" Which is a real humdinger.
I lived in the SW of France and saw those absolutely incredible, strong, castles perching on top of very high, steep cliffs. Their determination to keep the muslims out of France was truly awe-inspiring. How we have let them down!
To those who doubt the ability to pick up an accent... I had an uncle injured in Burma and shipped back to the UK, on board was a gypsy lad who not only told my uncle which village he came from, but the home of every other soldier with him. Some just have the ear.
AS for blogs encouraging extremism -it takes a certain type of personality to run one. Sometimes driven by sheer frustration at being unable to highlight a 'wrong situation' in any other way and sometimes for self-glorification and sometimes in cold blood to whip up trouble with the blogger sitting comfortably on the sidelines. Rather like some politicians sending other people's sons off to die for what?
A traitor is a traitor but as someone says why not send them off to an islamic utopia after all that is what they want so it would not infringe their human rights! So we would be alright there.
On a lighter note Verity ? Wickedly funny , this inbreeding thing is actually more serious than many might suppose .The dangers of procreating with a first cousin are very real and the warning was not at all mischevious .There is a genuine problem with birth defects amongst Pakistanis and it is a staggering fact that the practice is so widespread.
The figures are in the DT today. Amazing .
Perhaps they should get out a bit ?
I'm sure a soldier who had been shot at by one of these, "holidaymakers" would take a slightly different view to some on this post.
If british citizens are found to be opposing our troops their benefits should be reduced to take account of the lower living costs in the Khyber Pass.
should these individuals be hung for treason?
Or should the British elite, who STILL think mass immigration from backward medieval countries is a good idea?
By the way does the Conservative party support the re-introduction of the primary purpose rule?
*Abolishing the primary purpose rule was the first thing Tony Blair did as PM in 1997. It prevented marriage being used to enter the country if in the opinion of Immigration officials the primary purpose of the marriage was to gain entry to the UK. All arranged marriages were deemed NOT to qualify because the participants could not have known each other well.
Hundreds of thousands of sub- continent immigrants have come to the UK since the abolishion of the Primary purpose rule in 1997.
This has never been put on the agenda by the MSM.
At least when traitors are in Afganistan or Iraq, the can be swiftly dealt with by the boys in the field. Treason trials would be very expensive to the taxpayer and martyr the ****ers, in front of the whole world.
One of the hidden aims of the war on terror, was to act as a magnet for Jihadding Loonies from Western countries. Think about it, would you rather they were there, getting shot to bits by an A10, or if they were blowing up trains, buses etc. on these shores?
The most psychotic Jihadists, have been drawn out of the country as a result of the war on terror, to places were they can be properly dealt with. When the allies leave Iraq and Afghanistan, we may have a much bigger problem in this country.
Ian
I believe that you are losing focus on what your Blog is all about.
Knee-jerk reactions against the Archbishop of Canterbury, then comments on this strange article from the Sun. You should start writing articles for the red tops.
As a blogger, you seem to have become intoxicated by your own success, you have to blog on everything, all the time, and your comments are now devalued.
You used to write good conservative articles, now you appear to be pandering to your perceived audience.
Take a step back and look what you are doing
Attention shoppers!
I have been highlighting here and elsewhere the effects of Pakistani inbreeding - accounting for 30% of birth defects on the NHS (although just 3% of births - so 3% of births are responsible for 30% of the birth defects recorded by the NHS - for about eighteen months.
People over on The Telegraph's "Your View" are now saying with regard to Woolas, "Well, he may be right."
Duh. He is right. The information has been freely available, but few have alluded to it. So people are now surprised.
The figures are right there, in the NHS and always have been. Bradford MP Anne Cryer has been trying to make progress by getting first cousin marriages outlawed for at least two years.
Yet some have opined that Mr Woolas should be sacked for mentioning that the small (3% or 4%) percent of Pakistanis in Britain are responsible for 30% of live birth defects.
Now, ask yourselves this: why are the socialists promoting immigration of these individuals?
And giving them an illegal pass for bigamy? Four wives/cousins ... it doesn't bear thinking of. And these additional breeders of children with birth defects - some of them very severe - are to be supported by the British taxpayer in "benefits".
Hmmmm ...
As I mentioned above, this was the original reason for mohammad telling men they could have four wives. Four breeders to fight and conquer for allah.
Meditate on it.
"Time the long arm of the law put a few more in the ground,
Send 'em all to their maker, he'll settle 'em down .. "
"Beer for my Horses" by Willie Nelson & Toby Keith
anon.9.20
So are you saying is that there are probably no home grown terrorists killing for the Taliban, and even if there were it shouldn't be commented on?
I your offspring turn out loopy that provides a source for suicide bombers as has recently been already demonstrated in Iraq.
Yet again Verity demonstrates her bigotry in most things religous. To add to her previous incorrect statements that all mosques segregate congregations and no Christian churches ever segregated theirs, we now have a sucession of similar sweeping statements about Moslems wanting a single legitimate community operating under sharia law. While there are some who want that - this is by no means a universal view - and the fact that there are so many separate Moslem states, most of which have both secular and sharia legal systems would indicate to all but the most bigoted that perhaps a reasonable number of Moslems do not accept Verity's view of their religion.
It might also be pointed out that as well as Moslem extremists, there are still quite a lot of Christians who believe that the legal system should be driven by their religous beliefs, both now and even more so in the past.
The danger of Verity's approach is that she will drive the more tolerant Moslems into the arms of the extremists leading to Ctrusades/Witch Trials or similar that she is so much looking forward to. The reality is that Islam (and Christianity and other religous beliefs) are here to stay for the forseeable future, and in a modern world they cannot all retreat to their little corners. Sensible people, in all religions and none, believe that ways have to be found so that everyone's beliefs can be respected.
And to get back to the original question - yes the extremists are traitors (to their country and their relgion if you listen to moderate imans) and should be dealt with if we get the chance - and yes if you do go on holiday to a war zone and visit a Taleban training camp there should be more than a suspicion of guilt.
And just in case Verity thinks i'm writing this from the floor of my mosque - wrong again. I've just been helping my son with his RE homework - writing an essay on Chrismon trees ( a horrible evangelical invention) .
This is apt then...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7fPu-ywN00
Carl Eve
Of course if we had that Sharia law we could hang the bastards, and we could stone poo....Oh shit! sorry Iain not you of course
Certainly makes for an awful lot of extra voters.
Iain has the shock of being home or jetlag numbed your blogging abilities?
How to solve a problem like Sharia
Tory Boys:
No. I never said that no mosques admitted women. Some, in the more advanced parts of the umna, admit women - BUT THEY ARE SEGREGATED IN WORSHIP FROM THE MEN. Bums in the air is a male preserve.
Incorrect about Christians segregating women worshippers from male. You have a bee in your bonnet about this, and you managed to find some Greek Orthodox church somewhere in some weird eastern European country - one church among tens of thousands - where women were once segregated. This sounds like something totally unique to the area, and they were on the border of some islamic state.
You tried to claim that the segregation of men and women in Christian worship was the case "until recently", if I recall your exact phrase, in Britain and Western Europe. Then you couldn't provide an instance.
It has never - an unequivocal never been the case in Britain or Western Europe, or anywhere in the Anglosphere or, as far as I know, in Africa. The congregations have always been mixed. In churches, men, women and children pray together. That you didn't know this, and, indeed, resist this fact, indicates that you are not connected with the Christian tradition, and that you are from an islamic background.
You write, about my comment: "we now have a sucession of similar sweeping statements about Moslems wanting a single legitimate community operating under sharia law."
But they do, Tory Boy! And that legitimate community is called the umna - and it is one worldwide jurisdiction of islam, as you know. They do not recognise national boundaries. As you know.
That's what they have already requested in France - a millet, and that is what they are working towards in Britain.
As you are well aware.
If you are a muslim and sharia is available, you are obliged to operate under those religious rules. You can't opt out. That's why the islamic ladies in Ontario fought tooth and nail against sharia courts being legitimised in Ontario. And they won. They fought so hard because they understood only too well the consequences. So congratulations to those fine fighting ladies.
"there are still quite a lot of Christians who believe that the legal system should be driven by their religous beliefs".
Who? Locations, please?
I have not heard even a very evangelical American say their legal system should be driven by their religious beliefs. Americans believe, very firmly, in the separation of church and state. (I'm sure this was an ill-advised dig at the Americans, which is why I mention them.)
The danger of Verity's approach is that she will drive the more tolerant Moslems into the arms of the extremists. Wow! Today "the more tolerant muslims", tomorrow the world! Frankly, you could do worse.
Here's the money quote: The reality is that Islam (and Christianity and other religous beliefs) are here to stay for the forseeable future, and in a modern world they cannot all retreat to their little corners. Sensible people, in all religions and none, believe that ways have to be found so that everyone's beliefs can be respected.
Thanks, but we already knew Christianity, "and other religious beliefs" are "here to stay". Your "sensible people" do not include most muslims, who are driven by their diety to create one world for his worship. No other religion has had this aggressive direction which causes much bonkerism among its devotees.
As you know, Tory Boy, I want islam to have its Reformation, or be banned as a dangerous cult. In fact, given the evidence, it is far more dangerous than Scientology or the Falun Gong, so why hasn't it been banned? Even Tom Cruise at his most vivacious doesn't recommend blowing up passenger airlines over the Atlantic.
11:52 - "How to solve a problem like Sharia?"
There are highly intelligent, worldly, motivated, religious muslims who want islam to have its Reformation. They will eventually prevail, but just now they have the deadweight of the unenlightened primitives - i.e., the somalis who, for some reason, are living in Britain and living under their own regimes - clinging to their ankles. And pakistanis who share their beliefs. These people have no place in the enlightened West.
Why can't they take a look at Jordan, with the Sandhurst-educated King Abudullah (his father, King Hussein, also having been educated at Sandhurst) and the beautiful Queen Rania, who doesn't think getting her hair styled is beneath her, wears make-up, designer clothes and is a devout muslim. She not only works very hard to get more ambulances donated to Jordan, but turns up for her shift as an ambulance driver. This royal pair are part of the modern world.
strapworld 6:27
Afghanistan was meant to be a peace keeping mission without the need for a shot being fired.
A one-way ticket to Club Gitmo would seem in order
Verity, you are rewriting history to suit your views again - perhaps rather than misquoting me and yourself to suit your very narrow views perhaps you should go back and look at what you said originally:
You said: "Dave of positive discrimination fame: islamic women aren't allowed to pray in mosques. How do you, the proud promoter of all-women short-lists, respond to that? "
I replied " Verity is again wrong - women are allowed to pray in nearly all mosques ( in separate areas from men - so hardly enlighted, but other religions including Christianity (in the not too distant past) have adopted the same practice, and there are Moslems who are arguing for a change in this practice."
You were wrong on the first point as you subsequently acknowledged - but now claim that I never acknowledged segregation in mosques, which of course i did in the first post. I have not at any time tried to claim that Christian churches in the Anglosphere in recent times practised segregation of the sexes - I pointed out that it still occurred in some Orthodox churches (the Romanian Orthodox Church is not a minority sect - at least not in Romania) and did occur in some weird sects (such as the Shakers) and was also common in Judaism. Even regarding your point about segregation never ever having occurred in Christian churches in the Anglosphere you are wrong - it was common in medieval times when women were placed on the north side of the church (a practice still followed in some Orthodox churches), see link below.
As for the rest of your diatribe - you ignore the point that most Moslem countries have secular as well as sharia courts, so at least some Moslems are able to separate the two. As for the point about Christians trying to drive the legal system - perhaps you could explain why the Moral Majority/Religous Right are trying to get involved in politics if it isn't to set the legal direction for the US legal system ( I
was not saying that they were trying to totally direct the legal system or set up Christian courts - I tend to try and avoid such absolute statements).
As for your view that Islam should be offered an alternative between a full Reformation (presumably along the not so popular Jordanian model) or dangerous cult status perhaps even you might wish to reflect on the practicality of such a proposal.
http://books.google.com/books?id=Mf0_lX99_wIC&pg=PT45&lpg=PT45&dq=segregation+of+church+congregations+medieval+churches&source=web&ots=oYc0iDq1fo&sig=MpehL76U9DHHEqi4eup0fyr82vA#PPT45,M1
Of course, Verity is absolutely right. Many Muslims and non Muslims see that the Islamic world has been at theological war with itself almost since the faith's advent. Islam certainly cannot become compatible with democracy because a radical reinterpretation of the religion would be required, which is impossible, because it's against the very nature of the Quran, as it's understood by Muslims.There is no "moderate" Islam. As for an Islamic "reformation", don't hold your breath.
Well, when Sept 11 happened, along with the London bombing, CAUTION (or in my view-not at all) when employing Muslims in 'areas of sensitivity' (governmental,defence,chemical, etc) should have been enacted. The base fact is the Islamic culture and OUR culture are incompatible. They do not belong to ours, and we don't belong to theirs. In the main, indigenous anglo-saxons do not want anything to do with the Islamic people/culture- and vice versa- just look at the evidence for 'culture mixing' in Blackburn (ie)hardly any), and the rise of ethnic ghettos and white flight from certain areas. Those 'British' Muslims don't regard themselves as traitors to a culture they do not support: apart from free house, money, and lo and behold free-speech! Why people should be surprised at 'brummie' sounding Muzzies in where-ever being Taliban is quite frankly amazing. So called multiculturalists and the anti racist brigade have bought this all upon themselves...
If the story is true then I might think that releasing the ability to monitor to the Sun for publication does constitute a risk to security. I would have preferred leaking information about where the Taliban might be and what they were up to so that the Taliban's paranoia about traitors in their midst might have rebounded on these gentry
Stan Bull and Simon are correct. Islam, by its very nature, is at war with the advanced West and this cannot change until islam has a Reformation.
The enlightened, secular West is an assault against the very pillars of islam - which are unquestioning obedience to the diety who not only invented all the rules of the universe, but believes the universe and everything living in it belongs to him; constant praying; and their holy duty to convert "non-believers" to their god, as they have been commanded to do.
They are enjoined to pray five times a day. What kind of mind control is that? They're either planning to go and pray, takking off all their jewellery and their watches in preparation for praying, actually praying, putting all their jewellery/watches back on, or they're coming back from prayer. A couple of hours later, their minds are, again, directed on their preparations, travelling to pray, etc etc etc. It is mind control. Their every waking moment, they are thinking about when they have to leave to go and pray. They start this with young boys and wash their minds.
I have written before that the goal of islam is to convert every person on earth to worship their god. This is a holy duty.
It cannot be compatible with Western freedom of thought, and many islamics in the West are confused and angry with the conflict. It drives them into a rage, in fact.
But it is their holy duty to convert what they term "infidels". There can be no resolution - excepting in the case of highly intelligent,independent-minded people who accept that some of their holy book should be taken with a grain of salt/regarded in the context of the times. Irshad Manji, in Toronto is one such. She is a staunch muslim, but she heads a movement for a Reformation, and good on that gal.
But these are very sophisticated thinkers (and you can imagine the brainpower and imagination it must take to become a sophisticated thinker when your whole family, during your growing-up time, is focused on praying) and these people are not the people who live in ghettoes in Bradford or send their children to religious schools where the female teachers wear masks over their faces.
Verity said
"Islam, by its very nature, is at war with the advanced West and this cannot change until islam has a Reformation."
You mean an "Enlightenment" not a "Reformation". Islam has an equivalent to the Catholic/Protestant divide which is Shia v Sunni. They are at a point which is not unlike that of Europe in the 17/18th century.
3:02 - Islam is stuck in the 9th Century. It has not advanced by one step since then. No way is it up to 17th/18thC Europe.
I have no objection to hanging them but some of them seem to have been first blooded as soldiers in the parts of the Bosnian Moslem army suppiled by al Quaeda & Iran & secretly flown in by the USA.
I trust nobody is going to suggest that anything al Quaeda have done to Brits compares with the genocide, rape & collecting of human heads which our then allies were carrying out then. Since this was carried out with our de facto full support & the silence of our media we should not get on a moral high horse about how dreadful activities we have only recently discovered are terrorism are.
Sorry Verity, my bad.
The way I read your words I mistook them to mean you thought that expression had been used vis a vis our Muslim chums.
Consider me booked on a reading and comprehension course as of now :-)
Verity... "...you managed to find some Greek Orthodox church somewhere in some weird eastern European country - one church among tens of thousands - where women were once segregated. This sounds like something totally unique to the area, and they were on the border of some islamic state."
I suppose it depend on what we mean by segregation. There is a much lesser degree of segregation than in mosques certainly, but forget weird eastern European countries - I could show you at least two Greek Orthodox churches in Birmingham alone where the sexes are seated on separate sides of the church.
Troy Molloy - With respect, I was not discussing Eastern churches as they are not part of mainstream European Christianity.
I told Tory Boys that in Christianity, as we know it in Britain and Northern and Western Europe, men, women and children have always worshipped together.
This is not an issue in itself. Tory Boys is an apologist for islam and claimed that "in the not too distant past" women were segregated in Christian churches, which is not correct. He couldn't name one. I don't want to get all involved in "he said/she said" with regard to Tory Boys because this is a side issue.
Verity
So well as saying that Islam has not progressed since the 9th century you are now excluding the Orthodox Church from your definition of Christianity which is worth listening too. This of course includes the Russian Orthodox Church which historically has probably done more to hold back the Moslem hordes of which you are so scared - and of course you probably don't recognise the contribution made to world culture by Russins and other Slavs who grew up under "Eastern Christianity"
And whatever you say I am not an apologist for Islam - I am quite prepared to condemn Al Quaeda and their ilk, but I don't believe this condemnation should extend to the whole of Islam or Moslems in general, and such condemnation will just force more into the ranks of Al Quaeda and similar. A
Verity - it is well well known that in Anatolian Orthodox Churches in the 13th Century that women were required to wear buckets on their heads.
Are you aware of logic Verity said
"3:02 - Islam is stuck in the 9th Century. It has not advanced by one step since then. No way is it up to 17th/18thC Europe."
my point had nothing to do with an historical reference to the date of the birth of Jesus the prophet. It was a response to the schematic divide along protestant/catholic lines. I doubt you know anything of European history frankly - just seem to be an old school frumpty.
Anyway I find it presumptious of a woman to be making these points. Have you not prayers to attend to sister?
on the plus side, better that they are over there rather than over here.
at least they'll be turned into Apache gunship mincemeat over there, rather than being molly coddled by loads of "human rights" lawyers over here.
here's hoping many many more of them leave Britain to fight in Afghanistan - in fact, i think it should be encouraged.
Tory Boys, who else?: The Russian Orthodox Church has done more "to hold back the Moslem hordes of which you are so scared -".
Why would I be "so scared"? Do explain. I make a point of this: Explain.
And how did the Russians get in here?
We are discussing Western European civilisation, developed over the centuries and our mores, which are those of Western Europeans. (I believe you are excluded from speaking in the inclusive.)
We were speaking in the context of Britain and Western Europe. We were not talking about exotics thousands of miles away in Russia.
However, if the Russian Church held back the hordes of islamic aggressors on another part of our planet, that is a worthy thing. Respec'.
Tory Boys: "And whatever you say I am not an apologist for Islam - I am quite prepared to condemn Al Quaeda and their ilk." By God, you are a sport, sir! A gent and no mistake!
He continues: "but I don't believe this condemnation should extend to the whole of Islam or Moslems in general, and such condemnation will just force more into the ranks of Al Quaeda and similar. A".
So it's all our fault! Al Qeda would not have blown up the WTC, the Madrid Railway Station, London Transport, a nightclub in Bali, Glasgow Airport if we hadn't made them feel so bad about themselves. They were lacking in self-esteem!
Many of their victims are lacking their lives. Many hundreds of others are lacking their limbs and their sight, for life. Many children are lacking their parents, or parents who are able to care for them despite desperately desiring to do so. Hundreds of parents from NYC, Madrid, London Transport, Bali and other points, are lacking their adult children. Thousands of adults are lacking their husbands or wives.
Tory Boys Never Grow up, you are ghastly.
Whilst we're talking about traitors... how would you describe a national newspaper that publishes details of a (no doubt covert) military surveillance mission?
Either the Soaraway Sun is guilty of publishing military secrets, or it is making it up.
Verity
Short explanation - the usual trigger for the bigotry and racism which you regularly demonstrate is fear. Of course it could be something deeper.
I never said Al Quaeda is ALL our fault - but I supect that when recruiting they are more than happy to point to you and your ilk. That said no amount of provocation can ever be used as justification for such actions, particularly when there are other decent means of expressing their dissatisfaction.
I have lost one friend in a terrorist action and have another friend who lost a close relative on 9/11 - so your comments in this regard are particularly sickening. Just because I think that the problem should be dealt with in a diiferent way from yourself does not mean that I am supporting Al Quaeda. And perhaps you ought to understand that tolerance of differnt views is meant to be a feature of the western civilisations that you seek to defend.
And whatever you might say I am very much a Western European - and you have no evidence whatsover to the contrary because there isn't any.
Tory Boys - You are overly touchy and delusional. At no point did I say you supported Al Qaeda. I most assuredly would not make such a grave accusation about a perfect stranger. Well, you're not perfect, but you're a stranger and I think you are deluded.
Off this thread.
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