Both Clinton and Obama would actually be classified as Conservatives if they were active in British politics. I found very little in what either of them said which the majority of Conservatives would not agree with. Their disagreements were on matters of nuance, rather than matters of substance.
Friday, February 01, 2008
Last Night's Obama v Clinton Debate
When I got into my hotel last night I switched on CNN to find a live debate going on between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama. It was the first time I had seen them go head to head. There's clearly not a lot of love lost between them. Hillary was try to be sweet and innocent by calling Obama by his first name a lot of the time, while Obama virtually always called her Senator Clinton. Both performed well. Indeed, Hillary showed herself to be a master of policy detail, but it all seemed to relate to her husband's Presidency. If I were her I'd avoid any mention of him or his Presidency, mainly because it reinforces the impression that she is a figure of the past, whereas Obama is of the future.
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41 comments:
I think Obama can do it. This race might not be over on Tuesday - it's a close call.
Hillary has met her match. I wonder if they will become the 'dream ticket'?
Go Obama!
Hillary Clinton would be a Conservative? This is a woman who wants to more or less nationalise children (It Takes A Village) and whose instincts always incline her to look for the most statist solutions to any problem.
Wow nice new look Iain. I guess it's better than RSS.
The debate a score-draw, but I think Hillary did well to get rid of her "nasty" image, and Obama got rid of his "no substance" image.
Ultimately, Obamas problem is that people are not 100% sure about him. And with Hillary/Obama ticket looking likely, they will probably opt for the safe option during a scary time.
I think both are better than McCain.
Iain
if you look at the Political Compass:
http://politicalcompass.org/usprimaries2008
it confirms your placing of Obama and Hillary close to one another and firmly in the conservative quadrant. The American electorate won't elect someone with what Ross calls "statist solutions" and that is why Hillary doesn't and won't propose them.
Both Clinton and Obama would actually be classified as Conservatives if they were active in British politics. I found very little in what either of them said which the majority of Conservatives would not agree with.
If that's true it's profoundly depressing. But it isn't is it? I'll spell it out again, both candidates favour big government, tax increases, higher government spending, open borders, an amnesty for illegal immigrants, an increase in the minimum wage and all the other leftist baggage.
There are CINOs* in the UK that go along with that stuff but they are scarcely typical.
*Conservatives In Name Only
which is why only the really right wing would be GOP.
mccain is a dem in a GOP suit
conservative policy regarding south africa in the 1980s would certainly mean that NEITHER would encourage the view that they would be tories if they were british.
Yo Iain welcome to the home of the brave or whatever! (I say from here in darkest Gloucestershire).
Like other readers I'm interested that you say Hillary/Obama would be called conservatives here.
Ages ago I used selectsmart.com to find out what they'd say my politics were.
The UK one said I was a Conservative (correct), the US one said I was a Socialist (scary). So basically I think you're on the money. All Gordon Brown's holiday hobnobbing with the Democrats is complete nonsense. On any scale I'm sure he comes out as a Nazi.
Oh by the way. James Cleverly was on 'Question Time Extra' and was excellent.
There's something creepy about Obama. Anyway, they're both big-government, big-spending socialists.
Iain if you think that Clinton would be classified as a Conservative if she were operating in the UK then you have truly lost the plot. Clinton is, always was, and forever will be a classic Euro Socialist of the type that are ruining both our own and many other European nations. Just because it appears that the Republicans cannot win this time does not mean that we should be kidding ourselves that either of the Democratic contenders are "alright really". They are not plain and simple.
"The American electorate won't elect someone with what Ross calls "statist solutions" and that is why Hillary doesn't and won't propose them."
So how come her latest ads are proposing that the government sets bank's interest rates and a moratorium on foreclosures?
"Both Clinton and Obama would actually be classified as Conservatives if they were active in British politics. I found very little in what either of them said which the majority of Conservatives would not agree with."
On your own with that one then Iain. They are both trendy centralising 'liberals' with a humourless moralising streak.
Now if you had accused them of being Cameroons......
I saw the first half of the debate. I've always thought today's Conservative Party is much more aligned with the Democrats than with the Republicans. America has two Conservative Parties - just two different branches of Conservatism.
On the debate front, I thought Clinton's arguments held more water. Although Obama is campaigning as the change candidate, he seemed much less reluctant to radically change the existing order over there.
I see over on Melanie Phillips that Obama also said that if elected he would convene a meeting of every muslim head of state in the world to find out how to bridge the widening gap between them and us.
He doesn't seem to have clicked yet that islam is a violent, aggressive, backward, jealous cult. Surprising really, as he is part of it. If he doesn't realise it, then he's a sleeper.
Verity "Socialists" ?! You must be joking!!
Mr Angry "Euro Socialists" Ho Ho !!
"Centralisng liberals". Nope that's wrong too..
Cameroons - yep that's nearer the mark but Blairite would be better. Oh by the way not my views but from the reference I gave you all earlier. Take a look:
http://politicalcompass.org/usprimaries2008
I thought the debate showed what an excellent pair of candidates the Dems have this time round. Call them what you like, ideologically: what can'tbe denied is that they are two brilliant all-round politicians, and far superior to any we have in the UK.
marbury
http://www.marbury.typepad.com
The politicalcompass.org site is rubbish. Why are there no politicians in the top left quadrant? Does this just mean that I disagree with everyone except, apparently, Pope Benedict and Mahmoud Abbas (who I thought was some sort of cricketer) on most issues?
Obama's a sleeper. Mark my words. The Manchurian candidate. He's already going to bring world peace by meeting with every muslim leader in the world. I'm sure he's going to have a full and frank discussion with them, to discuss misapprehensions, and everything, and all the islamic leaders, who are vastly more astute and worldly wise than the young saviour of the world, are going to say, "Gosh! We hadn't thought of it like that before! Why, certainly, we will stop obeying allah's command to make the whole world islamic! No probs!"
As surreal as all these "sleeper" and "he's really a Muslim" and "his middle name is Hussein" comments are, it remains a major hudle for Obama to overcome, this whispering campaign that he's not a real Christian, that he's not a real American. Jeez eh, he was 8 years old, and he went for a few years to a mainstream school in Indonesia with a bunch of other 8 year old Muslims.
Extremist parts of Islam are "a violent, aggressive, backward, jealous cult." It's Islamophobic to generalise that out, and say that all of Islam is x or y, just like it would be anti-Christian to say that the Crusades, or the Catholic Church on the Holocaust, invalidates an entire religion.
Iain, Clinton a CONSERVATIVE! did something happen to you on the flight to DC? Obama likewise.
In UK politics, I would say she (actually they) was a Social Democart/Liberal Democrat.
A Tory - never.
My first thought after the debate ended was that Hillary Clinton came across as exceptionally boring. Throughout the event, I continually asked myself, "How does she generate any *genuine* excitement?"
It was a let's-make-nice event and even the reporters seemed reluctant to ask questions that would challenge either candidate. Early on, the questioners seemed to realize that neither one would try to land a campaign-ending blow and, so, seemed content to gum the hands that feed them.
All in all, however, I'd say it was a good night for Obama. He made no gaffes and provided sharp, thoughtful answers to the questions and reasoned criticisms of Hillary on some matters. More important, he did not provide any words or actions that Hillary and her supporters could play as him being *mean* to her.
Oh, the reason why Hillary constantly references the 1990s, Iain, is that she is counting on many Democrats to remember the Clinton Administration solely as a golden era of peace, prospeity, and great government jobs, an era that can be and should be restored. Alas, Bill's ham-fisted politicking and some of trickery of the past few weeks reminded many Democrats (and within the establishment press) of the less attractive side of the Clinton era--e.g., the "Just Win, Baby" approach to, well, everything; the perpetual campaigning, spun as governing; and the podium-pounding sanctimony.
No, Scott Redding, you are not getting away with your post.
Obama went to a madrassa in Indonesia - not a mainstream school. Forget the people who say, "Oh, maddrassah's just the Indonesian word for school." It isn't. It's a universal islamic word for a hardline indoctrination outfit for children - as we know from the use of the word in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. And Obama went there during the very formative years of six to 10. (I speak a small amount of Bahasa Malaysia and the word for ordinary school is sekolah.)
Redding continues: "It's Islamophobic to generalise that out,". Damn straight. I'm islamophobic. This is a dangerous, aggressive, backward, angry cult and their deity has commanded that his followers command the entire world to worship him. And they intend to follow orders. (That's the bit you people always miss out.) Trying to compare it with Christianity or Judaism cannot work because neither Judaism (which,in any event, actively resists converts) or Christianity is set on converting the world to their religion by the sword.
Even if, at times, some Christians in the Dark Ages have misintepreted the Bible, nowhere is this commanded in the Bible. But it is so commanded in the koran.
I've never said Obama's not a real American as he was born in the United States.
Iain's analysis is spot on...
It's Hillary or Barack who really matter.
The Republican Party have had their sorry day. The party is over.
Now is the time for the USA to reclaim their integrity.
Go Oabama!
obama too. :)
oh verity - you just love that 'fear' factor...
Scary people who are 'different' to you.
spooky scary 'different' people...haha.
Change is in the air. Embrace it.
Oh Verity, I'm so scared, I'm not getting away with my post. No matter what Verity says, it wasn't a madrassa, it was a public Muslim school open to students of all beliefs, and it was only for 2 years of his time in Indonesia, not the full 4 years. These are the kind of lies that are going to be pinged and ponged around the Internet for the next 8 months.
Scott,
"the Catholic Church on the holocaust"?
If you're going to defend Islam, try to do it without peddling noxious innuendo about other religions. Cheers.
"Iain if you think that Clinton would be classified as a Conservative if she were operating in the UK then you have truly lost the plot."
I second that. How on earth would Clinton or Obama be classified 'Conservatives'?!
Scott Redding: Money quote: "I came here to Barack Obama's elementary school in Jakarta looking for what some are calling an Islamic madrassa ... like the ones that teach hate and violence in Pakistan and Afghanistan," Vause said on the "Situation Room" Monday. "I've been to those madrassas in Pakistan ... this school is nothing like that."
OK. It's not like a Pakistani madrassa. For one thing, the clothes would be totally different.
Madrassas are islamic. That is why they are not called "schools". They are indoctrination centres for children.
Obama has noted in his two books, "Dreams From My Father" and "The Audacity of Hope," that he spent two years in a Muslim school and another two years in a Catholic school while living in Indonesia from age 6 to 10.
So how is it we know the name of the madrassa and not the name of the Catholic school Obama apparently switched to after two years? Couldn't CNN have also visited that.
Normal schools are not called madrassas. They're called sekolahs.
I do not believe this madrassah had Buddhist pupils. No Buddhist parent would dream of sending their child to a muslim school, because islam is the polar antithesis of Buddhism. Total control as against free will.
And although the teachers were clad in Western clothes when CNN swanned in, what clothes were they wearing 30 years ago?
Sounds like a latter-day 'back and fill' operation to me.
I'd be interested to hear what you really mean, Verity, by the phrases "sleeper" or "Manchurian Candidate". I mean, do you really believe that they strapped him down to a chair and used flashing lights on an 8 year old Obama, and programmed him in extremist Islam (is there any other kind according to you?), and that he's been waiting to be activated for 40 years? Christ, you're a loon.
Verity:
OK... CNN suppressed what would have been the political bombshell of the year, as part of an Islamofascist plot of fiendish intricacy, and decades in the making, to get their sock puppet in the White House.
Scott, good on you for trying to reason with Verity -- but it's about as futile as trying to logically engage with the '9/11 Truthers' or any other conspiracy nut. Reasoning with the fundamentally irrational who have divine access to THE TRUTH? Forget it.
Let's tell the dirty little truth about Verity, shall we: She just hates Muslims, and by her lights Obama's big sin is that he has a funny foreign name. His step-father was a Muslim, and that's irrefutable proof that Barrack Saddam Hussein Osama is irrevocably 'tainted' by association. No further proof required.
She would just be pathetic, if it wasn't all so sinister.
verity!
There are none so blind as those who will not see.
There is no point in showing you where you are so wrong in what you are saying because you will just refuse to acknowledge the truth.
If you took the test on the political compass I bet you were at the very top (authoritarian) and on the extreme right. You are a fascist.
Craig Ranapia - You are one weird little dude. You are always whispering "Let's tell the dirty little truth". You love that word "dirty". You hiss it all the time. I'll bet if you go back through your posts and do a word search, you'll see that you use the word "dirty" an awful lot.
Here's another baseless insult directed at me: "She would just be pathetic, if it wasn't all so sinister." Ooooh! Sinister! Unlike the raving Craig Ranapia, muslim lover extraordinaire.
Mandela - "There are none so blind as those who will not see." And there are none so boring as those who cannot present an coherent argument. I came out Libertarian on the test, sweet thang. Tough luck. If someone does not confirm with your somewhat overheated Weltanschuang, that does not mean they are wrong. It could mean that you're nuts.
Anyway, to our muttons, as the French say with such Gallic impenatrability. I have never made any claims, secret, dirty or otherwise, to find anything to admire in islam. There is, is you read the koran, a helluvah lot to militate against. I would like to see entire belief system outlawed as a cult. Mohammad was the L Ron Hubbard of his day.
how can somebody claim to be libertarian and spout the kind of anti islam nonsense we have seen from verity? either she lied in the test or she lied in her last post!
i agree with Scott redding - verity is a loon
Still beside Mandela - You are either ill-read or a muslim. Read the koran. Read the surahs. Their diety commands them to make the entire world islamic, either by persuasion, lies and deceit (taqqya and kitman)or the point of the sword or, these days, the suicide jacket and car bomb.
There is to be no peaceful accommodation with the rest of the world. You need to get this idea through your Western heads. There is to be no accommodation. They're already heavy into taqqya and kitman in Britain. Inch by inch.
Mohammad was the L Ron Hubbard of his day. Perhaps they could make a movie of his life and get Tom Cruise to star in it.
"Both Clinton and Obama would actually be classified as Conservatives if they were active in British politics"
How true - how very true!
Thanks for proving my point -- 'muslim lover extraordinaire'! I think your real problem is you never quite got the Christian injunction against 'bearing false witness'.
The funny thing is, you're the best friend an Islamofascist could ever have. While you're busy getting hysterical about a phantom 'Manchurian Candidate', real ultra-fundamentalists are busy carrying on in plain sight and using people like you to feed the equally false meme that THE WEST wants to kill or forcibly convert all Muslims.
Mad, bad and dangerous to let anywhere near an internet connection -- that's Verity. But as long as our host is willing to put up with you, I guess that's the price of a democracy that truly values free speech.
WTF were the crusaders doing in the middle east 700 years ago? What are Isalmic extremists doing now? What is the difference? Verity was born 700 years too late?
Barack Obama is the least bad of a shite bunch of politicians in the mainstream US parties. He is not a socialist and he would make most European conservatives look left wing. The greatest democracy, the world's only superpower, the land of the free is so full of brown stuff the right wing in the UK are wondering how to rid themselves of Brown and his stuff and verity is quite the most right wing loon loon in the blogosphere
The big problem with Obama is he is one person removed from Nadhmi Auchi, bought and paid for.
His friend "rezko" of 17 years with whom he's had numerous dealings turns out to be getting millions and millions from Auchi.
Go look it up, its amazing that Obama is one of the shadiest politicians ever and know one is taking a blind bit of notice that he's tainted with one of the most corrupt iraqi businessmen on the planet.
Expect a storm of epic porportions should this guy get the nomination, it will unravel fast.
Craig Ranapia said...
"the equally false meme that THE WEST wants to kill or forcibly convert all Muslims."
False yes, but does that make it a bad idea.
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