Saturday, June 30, 2007
Britain Must be Ready for Further Attacks
The new CRITICAL terror alert implies that further attacks are expected. Whether this is as a result of new intelligence or an informed guess is not clear. I have to say that I'd prefer to be at home in Tunbridge Wells this weekend than in London. I'm just off to the BBC to do News 24's paper review and then tomorrow I am going to Wembley to the Diana concert. I suppose the BBC and Wembley are both possible terror targets, but whatever one's reservations are, if we change our way of life, we let them win, don't we? The continuing terror threat will be with us for years to come. Nothing we do now will make it go away. But what we must do is protect our way of life and we do that best by ensuring that we do not give in to those who want to impose new authoritarian measures on us. All politicians will want to do everything possible to protect our citizens, but their freedoms can only be further infringed if it is 100 per cent certain that such measures are wholly necessary to prevent further terror attacks.
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114 comments:
Iain,
I agree that we need to protect our way of life and that ID cards and such like are not going to be the answer.
In fact I can't think of a way we can win through security measures.
Some key issues such as mass immigration from Pakistan and other Muslim nations and allowing radical cultures to exist in this country without interference (multiculturalism) need to be addressed.
I am not sure our political class has the guts to grasp at the elephant in the room due to their worshipping the gods of political correctness and the lefty MSM.
As such the attacks will continue and the wrong choice, restricting our freedoms, will remain the default choice of our anemic political leaders.
'They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security.'
I dissagree! "EU" ID Cards ARE the answer!!!!, i mean they stopped those terror attacks in Madrid didnt they!.....oh er hang on a minute.....
Also, attacks like that:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hampshire/6257442.stm
Such attacks by Islamic terrrorists are not unheard of, they happened in Berlin (at the Holocaust memorial of all places!) and a few happened in the US -- guys just driving their car into crowds, trying to maim as many people as is possible.
Credit to Brown for not coming out and slapping down more legislation.
Secondly, we do need to work closer with Europe to tackle this type of terrorism. It's going to be difficult.
(This could be the start of a campaign)
Well, the death penalty for terrorists - and their accomplices and enablers - would be a good start. So would mass deportation of every illegal alien in Britain, no matter how long they have been here. If they're illegal, they're committing a crime and should be sent back. Borders closed to further "settlers" from Pakistan and islamic countries.
No more primitive first cousins imported from tribal areas as brides and bridegrooms. No more treatment for Pakistani birth defects due to recessive genes on the NHS.
It has been illegal to wear a mask in public spaces in Britain for around 200 years. This should now be enforced in the case of this ghoulish niqab. It's not a part of their religion, but even if it were, so what? It's against the law in Britain.
No more halal butchery (and this would also have to apply to kosher, which is equally cruel and unacceptable in Britain). As in France, no more headscarves on public property like schools, town halls, council offices, hospitals, etc.
Finally, no automatic right of citizenship just because your mother gave birth to you in Britain. At age eighteen, people should be given the choice: Pakistani (or whatever) or British. If British, there are two years of national service - either in the armed forces or in social services - before you qualify. This is the system that Singapore uses and it works.
The point of all this is to remind them that someone is in charge around here, and it's not them. The owners of the country are the boss.
How about instant deporting of anyone non-british or with dual citizenship found with radical material or in any way involved with that kind of thing? The closing (and demolishing) of mosques that tolerate Jihad talk? The closing of Islamic faith schools? The end of funding of the special treatment for 'ethnic minorities' and no longer tolerating groups that cater only for specific religions or cultures? No more accommodations of 'cultural' habits that go against the British lead-culture?
The death penalty for suicide bombers is certainly an innovative idea.
I do not wish to tempt fate or appear complacent.
However, the recent attacks were inept and doomed to fail. The police and security apparatus is working - the principles inherited from Northern Ireland threat - and is preventing far worse scenarios. ID cards won't stop any threat, nor will banning demonstrations in Parliament Square. It is important that the business of anti-terrorism carries on as normal, without any knee-jerk or headline-grabbing initiatives.
As for the rest of us, we should carry on as normal and not let these murder attempts deter us from exercising our freedoms. This does not mean standing "shoulder to shoulder" with idiots like Bush and Bliar, and we can be simultaneously both critical of our government and supportive of the national interest.
"Credit to Brown for not coming out and slapping down more legislation."
Give him time.
Under EU law, we can bring back the death penalty during a time of war.
I am watching BBC News 24 right now, and I have never heard such utter hogwash. Who on earth are these so-called "security experts" they keep putting up. One of them has just described the perps in Glasgow as "bombers". Nice.
if we change our way of life, we let them win, don't we?
What exactly does that mean ? We should continue to allow cars to be parked in Haymarket or Trafalgar Square ?
Or that we should continue to have no border controls ?
Personally I should like to know why police snipers did not kill the bandits in Glasgow or at least disable them.
I also believe those convicted of terrorist offences shoud have a charging order against their assets....some owns those stolen cars and will only get residual value as insurance payout which is a bit hard when you still owe HP payments
Terrorists get a very cushy deal in this country - their families do not suffer financially or lose their homes and benefits flow
Our way of life as you put it does not treat terrorists as any worse than any other criminals - a strange notion for treason
How about instant deporting of anyone
Where to ?
If no country will accept them you have a problem
Yes, Simon - Ha ha. But a lot of these suicide bombers are so inept that they are alive enough to be arrested. As in the two bozos who tried to blow up Glasgow Airport. They should be tried and the state should finish the job for them. And also, Simon, I did mention the death penalty for cohorts and enablers. These people do not plot in a vacuum.
I have said several times, the result of the next attack should be a cold lock down of mosques. As in COLD LOCKDOWN. Mosques locked with police padlocks. Only the police to enter, to search, as in, pull up floor boards and pull down walls to check behind them. And pull down false ceilings.
The cold lockdown should last for athree month period, so they understand that we, not they, are in charge and we have decided they can't go into their mosques for three months. Mosques in which nothing treasonable or actionable, and in which no weapons and no ingredients that could be used for making explosives, are found, could be re-opened after three months. The others to be permanently closed and sold off.
Islamic faith schools, as perpetrating ideas that are inimical to our culture, should be closed permanently. All taxpayer funding for organisations which wish us harm - yes, MCB, I'm looking at you - to be terminated.
Oh, and families of terrorists to be deported.
They've been asking for it for 20 years. Now they should get it.
Watching Fox news ,I thought AlBeeb and Sky were pushing a bit ot ,but Fox are taking it to extreme ,calls more fencing down south and even for Canada ,according to some person on the same news ,we have an intergrated multicultural society ,news to me ,I thought we all lived in ghettos.
I don't think the death penalty will stand as a disincentive to individuals who are prepared to give up their lives for their cause - and I suspect that would include their aiders and abettors.
Also, I doubt that waging indiscriminate war on Islam in the UK in the way you suggest is likely to solve any problems, though I would close faith schools, of all religions.
The day after the 7th July attacks, I am very proud that I hopped on the Tube to work... even though I usually walk. It's important that we don't let them scare us.
are so inept that they are alive enough to be arrested. As in the two bozos who tried to blow up Glasgow Airport.
Verity is jumping to conclusions again....they might be protesting about the Airline Passenger Levy or petrol prices....it might even have been a student prank....you never consider that they might have girlfriend or boyfriend problems....
Perhaps they need counselling....on the other hand it could have been faulty steering in the Jeep and they were smoking and drinking vodka at the same time...
On the other hand they might have been checking in for an extraordinary rendition flight
though I would close faith schools, of all religions.
That's simply because you are a bigot. People like you had nice brown uniforms with swastikas and are a very justification for terrorism
I find it baffling in the extreme that we as a nation have been rudderless for a considerable time as our last "great" leader wandered the globe proclaiming what a wonderful chap he was. Yet days after his departure a man claimed by many to be unwanted and unloved takes the reins and we have not one not two but three botched attempts to cause carnage on the streets of our great nation.
Odd that, almost as odd as the fact that they were incompetent enough to F**K it up 3 times in a row.
I hope I'm wrong but I smell a rat.
simply correct.
O don't normally agree with you -but in this case even us and athe US can broadly agree: get on with normal life!
Those who say otherwise are defeatist and cowardly !
Please don't make this party political !
The history of the last century shows that cruelty can be taught. The Japanese, for example, treated their prisoners of war impeccably until, in the run up to World War II, they were taught to despise those who had surrendered.
Similarly the Hutu, in Rwanda, were taught cruelty (often by training videos) in readiness for the great massacres.
Now radical young Muslims are being taught contempt for human life.
This must be stopped and is one area where stringent measures may be necessary, even if they interfere with religious freedom and religious education.
You might say, measures of this sort run the risk of murderous retribution. So what? These religious maniacs have already started their campaign of murder. Are we supposed to sit on our hands and do nothing?
heres a radical idea. pull out of our illegal war in Iraq, leave afgahanistan and leave the rest of the world to get on with thier idiotic conflicts.. kick out the illegal immigrants and go back to living a decent,honest way of life.
lets be under no illusion. thisis the legacy of one anthony lynton bliar.
mid east peace envoy. wakr up and expel this criminal government
maybe if we prosecuted mr bliar for the obvious war crimes he committed we might see an end to this rubbish.
we cannot point the finger at these people when we tolerate illegal aggreession from our own government.
Anonymous 11:36 - Here's a radical idea! You and the "illegal war" trolls should try to grasp that this current jihad cycle began 28 years ago with the taking of the US Embassy and personnel in Teheran in 1979. Then the murder of US Marines as they slept in their quarters in Lebanon a couple of years later. The taking of the Achille Lauro - remember that? And on and on.
You may remember the death threats to Salman Rushdie made by people who found an insult to their religion in his work although they could barely speak or read English and certainly weren't advanced enough to be reading Salman Rushdie.
9/11 was nothing to do with Iraq, which was in the future.
I don't care what your opinions are, but at least have the courtesy to the rest of us to have them tethered to reality and real timelines.
Einstein's definition of insanity was "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results". From the Second World War onwards Great Britain has come under attack and what has it ever done? Northern Ireland is still British, we still have our pluralist society with freedoms and no theocratic government, we can dress how we like, say what we like, drink alcohol, our women can go to school and drive cars, Great British men don't murder their daughters for smiling and we still fly in aircraft.
These terrorist weirdoes must be paraded before us by our leaders and demonstrated to be flawed, ignorant little oafs who do not appreciate all that our society has given them. To be a terrorist must be shown to be truly shameful. For as it is now there are still smug idiots, white, black and Asian, out there who see news reports about terrorist bombings and smile.
Terrorism against a nightclub, an airport, a holiday resort, against public transport is not an attack on the policies of a government. Terrorism against humans is an attack on humans, and our government and our media must be confident in communicating this to the terrorists. You may kill ten, a hundred, a thousand Britons but the loss is the terrorists'. For all the grief over spilt blood the British people will remain resolute and all the anger will be turned on your pathetic, hate-filled little minds. You will lose, we must tell the Islamo-fascists, and they won't lose through violence either.
As an "ethnic" myself I heartily agree with single faith skools being shut down, with the exception of Catholic and C of E - they were here first and we live in a Christian country so that is fair enough.
I disagree vehemently that its our foreign policy to blame for the the terrorist scum trying to blow us up. If it wasn't Iraq or Afghanistan it would be something else... Israel, Palestine, Bob Wooolmer .. anything at all!
I violently object to the full facial Jib Jab or whatever its called. If you live in this country then you must attempt to integrate - feel free to practice your religion (behind closed doors) if you want to dress like a freak .. Orthodox Jews, Muslims, Africans etc etc then you should be stared at and be told to conform. If yu don't then you know where the exit door is.
As to our dear leader .. well ...
I fear Daves comments if any of the bombs had gone off woul dhave expressed his concern and indeed disgust and sorrow at the damage these bombers had done ........
TO THE OZONE LAYER!!!
nite all xx
Brown is trying to spin his apparently poor presentation as a deliberate contradition to Blair. Consider the election launch with the text screens obscuring the cameras, the victory statement not quite in front of the door of Number 10, and now this.
No senior polititian could be so bad at presentation except on purpose.
above posted to the wrong thread - hic
Maybe I'm Gordon Brown??
"Mosques locked with police padlocks"
That's disgusting.
You want to know what not changing our way of life is? It means not treating a group of people in a way reminiscent of a fascist state.
Sake.
simon commented
"The death penalty for suicide bombers is certainly an innovative idea."
Yes ...haven't you seen all those ex-Kamikaze pilots on Friends Reunited?
You should be safe enough at the Beeb.
Isn't this the rivers of blood that Enoch Powell talked about years ago?
If the intelligence is so good, then how do these things happen at all? It is important to remember that the conviction rate of those arrested for terrorist offences is well below one per cent. And just look at when, exactly, these things seem to happen: always politically the most convenient times. Brown’s National Government is one of the biggest political stories since the War, possibly the biggest of all. But who is covering it?
Nor is anyone mentioning which side we are on in Kosovo, or in Chechnya, or in Saudi Arabia (the only country on earth with which America has a special relationship, and very special it is too), or in Pakistan, or in welcoming the Turkish Caliphate into NATO and putatively into the EU, or in removing one of the two principal Arab bulwarks against the worst expression of each of the two main branches of Islam, or in threatening to remove the other such bulwark, or in encourgaing the mass immigration without which our greedy and philistine capitalism cannot function.
The Chief of Staff of the IRA at the height of its mainland bombing campaign sails merrily on as Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland, still believing the Provisional Army Council, of which he is a member, to be the sovereign body throughout Ireland.
And the new Scottish Executive might have been quite a hard nut to crack over the massive curtailments on liberty which will now be demanded in order to prevent massive curtailments on liberty. But not now. Presumably...
Anonymous 12:09 - Why are lockdown mosques disgusting? They're where the hatred for our host country is whipped up. You have to understand that this is a 30 year jihad.
You write: "You want to know what not changing our way of life is? It means not treating a group of people in a way reminiscent of a fascist state." What if those people are fascists demanding how you think and how you dress and who you worship?
Which is the fascist of your dreams? Not the civilised West.
You don't see the singling out of an entire group of innocent people and the complete deprivation of their freedom (at it's very basic the infringement of the right of assembly) as disgusting?
"What if those people are fascists demanding how you think and how you dress and who you worship?"
Then I don't become a fascist in response.
"Not the civilised West."
Thankfully not, as it will hopefully be unlikely to follow your suggestions.
Harry Hook - you seem to have raced in with your little thought without reading the previous comments. We were talking about FAILED - as in suicide bombers who FAILED to do the job and didn't die! See?
Some of you would have been so comfortable at the dinner table of Jessica Mitford.
Facists are fascists.
Muslims in this country are not "innocent". Their stated aim, and it is a majority stated aim, is to overthrow our way of life.
They are not cooperating, they are whining on about Salman Rushdie. Their so called "communities" are harbouring killers. Meanwhile they want their women to wander about wearing hoods and openly demand strictures for other minorities. They do not contribute to the common good and have no interests outside of their own culture.
Chuck them out, lock the mosques, whatever. They do not deserve to be British. Any of them.
Its ironic (or perhaps not) that Iranians are concerned about the lack of availability of petrol in their oil-rich country. See Sunday Telegraph:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/07/01/wiran101.xml
We have got plenty to spare here apparently!
Jess The Dog said...
"I do not wish to tempt fate or appear complacent.
However, the recent attacks were inept and doomed to fail. "
Except that the cat may be out of the bag:
1 car + some accelerant+ any concrete structure * many volunteers = total economic and transportation chaos in the UK.
In current UK law, are acts of arson even terrorism?
The army needs to be in Dover not....
England needs another Hugh Dowding not another Tony Blair.
Verity very kindly pointed out ...
"Harry Hook - you seem to have raced in with your little thought without reading the previous comments. We were talking about FAILED - as in suicide bombers who FAILED to do the job and didn't die! See?"
Of course I can see Verity ...that's why they're on Friends Reunited.
Liberal Republican said "Secondly, we do need to work closer with Europe to tackle this type of terrorism. It's going to be difficult". I think it's about time we were a self-governing country once more.
Verity. Agree with everything you say except the bit about Kosher meat.
Little Black Sambo. You're right. NWO Brown will appoint a "Homeland Security minister"
I fear that Wrinkled Weasel's bigotry will find favour throughout the country.
Jeremy Jacobs remarked ...
"I think it's about time we were a self-governing country once more."
You mean ...when we only had the Yanks telling us what to do?
I wonder what went through these guys minds when, instead of 72 virgins, they were met with the site of a number of rather brave Glaswegians wrestling them to the ground, with Groundskeeper Willy accents asking "do you think we should let the @@@@s burn?"
I have a novel form of punishment for such "unsuccessful" suicide bombers different from the ones above.
They should be forced to appear live on a special edition of "Supermarket sweep" on all Urdu/Arabic satellite TV channels. It should be the job of, say, Dail Winton, in the dried fruit aisle, to force feed them dried grapes shouting "its 72 raisins NOT 72 virgins you stupid bastards"
Humanitarian humiliation - much more of a deterrent, I suspect than capital punishment.
Wrinkled Weasel writes - and this is interesting - Muslims in this country are not "innocent".
A very interesting counterpoint.
Pay attention here, because this is really important: muslims judge US, in our own country, which we fought for and developed into a world force, are not innocent.
Which is why the ghastly Iqbal Sacranie and cohorts like little wriggly Señor Bunglawala can express grief at the loss of "innocent life" in the London Transport bombings. Sacranie, to his credit,finally admitted, under persistent questioning, that infidels are not considered innocent and the loss of their lives, limbs, sight, hearing did thus not matter.
Always remember this: if you are not an islamic you are not human in their code. They're in our country and they are trying enforce their Dark Ages tribal code. You are their host hive.
They have to be slashed back severely.
Muhammad was the L Ron Hubbard of his day.
A first response is to finally sayt we're fed up with being all multiculti then round up and quickly DEPORT all the rabblerousing "clerics" & tell the YoomanRights rabble to go visit them at their final destinations. The French do it, why can't we ?
Never happen of course
Yak 40 - Why not?
Because you are a slave of the government and not its boss?
Verity
Yes and I am sure you could have stated far more ideas.
A good list because it did not include your usual Nazi type authoritarian drivel you normally come up with.
There is, as you imply, an incredible amount that can be done without even bringing in new laws at all.
Still more that could be done by law that is just plain common bloody sense. It would at least reasure the public that the government takes the lives of its citizens in the least bit seriously.
Its very hard to expect the police to run around getting shot trying to arrest criminals for a living. When the victim keeps leaving there front door open and their cash and jewellery on the doorstep.
Libertarians may sometimes seem to have lost the plot but believe me their is nothing in libertarianism that allows people to blow other people up without very serious concequences.
I have been to Israel over 10 times over the last 20 years.
If any of you go there you will find a incredible and understandable amount of security measures in place. but the way its done in Israel far from making you feel intimidated or scared. It makes you feel more safe then possible anywhere in Britain.
For example; there is so little real murderous nutters or straight forward criminals about that people often still pick up unknown hitchikers in the sure knowledge that if the guy walking down the street had evil intentions he would have already been detained by the police or the army.
A visit to Israel inspite of its many anti-terrorist measures quickly shows us Brits that it is perfectly possible to have a liberal free decent democracy that genuinely cares for all its people, and fight and controll terrorism at the same time. IF and its a big IF that is actually what the governement of the day is trying to do.
Our government due to its relience on the muslim nutter vote, would rather 100 die a day then risk not getting elected again. Because for many of them its 5 more years or maybe ten in stir.
i've been watching 24 hour news all day, and it seems to me as if Ming and Dave have done a macavity the cat.
whats going on here?
"Their freedoms can only be further infringed if it is 100 per cent certain that such measures are wholly necessary to prevent further terror attacks"
Sorry Iain, I disagree. I'm quite willing to surrender some of my freedoms in order to make it easier to apprehend and convict - and punish - the kind of weirdos, misfits and loonies who do this sort of thing.
I'd be happy to accept that some measures were a "best guess" - so, to put a figure on it, 65 per cent sure that it would help.
Silly to choose a figure? Maybe, but you started it by putting it at 100 per cent.
Gordon Brown wants the UK to be a world leader in things. Maybe we can be a world leader in counter-terrorism, anti-terrorism and terrorist interrogation?
By the way, that chap who almost burned himself alive while trying to drive a bomb into Glasgow Airport? I do hope the nursing staff at the hospital didn't mix up the burns lotion with something like iodine or saline solution.
That would be an awful mistake to make but we have to accept that mistakes do happen from time to time in the NHS.
we need more of "mufti muzzler" comedy in times like this, rather than what passes for "comedy" on radio 4.
here on youtube
this is from australian tv.
sending up and taking the piss is one hell of a weapon against these nutters.
i disagree with realist above - i will only concede my freedoms if parliament declares war against islamofascism. and gives me a timeframe for when my freedoms will be given back to me.
until then , they can get lost. why should my freedoms be lost because of government unwillingness to close down a mosque or two. or to detain muslim extremists en masse - dont we have south georgia island ? rather a nice place to place dangerous islamists in a very far away location, without endangering our freedoms.
i'm sorry - i dont buy the "99 per cent of the population should lose freedoms because of the 1 per cent jihad nutcases" argument. why not just round them up and ship them off to south georgia?
may i add Iain - and even though i dislike Brown and his economic policies - i have to hand it to him. his 30 second address and no blairisms was a tour de force.
it was simple, to the point and he got back to work. sorry, but from my viewpoint that was exactly what the nation needed. no nonsense, its serious , to the point.
i fear that the "call me dave" gamble may well backfire spectacularly.
brown is signalling a return to "real" politics and real argument, thats my take on it anyway.
Convert, deport, detain...enough of this medieval cult. If the Germans can stop Tom Cruise filming because he's a Scientologist why are we still waiting for the "moderate" Muslims to say anything we care about? Islam out of Europe.
This whole media panic-fest, to which you and commenters here seem happy to contribute, is risible. You are clearly as susceptible to official and MSM fear-mongering as much of the rest of our compliant, fearful, 'Corporal Jones-like' population.
The people involved in these attacks were clearly bumbling fools. 'Beavis & Butthead in London Jihad' at 'The Register' describes things rather well I thought.
There was no oxidising agent present in any of those cars so, contrary to what is being universally claimed in th MSM, no possibility of 'massive explosions' - just impressive looking fireballs.
Since those attacks over 25 people have died and 250 have been seriously injured on our roads so, if you really are that fearful of being killed/injured in a 'terrorist' attack I suggest you should stay at home in perpetuity since the chances of death/injury whilst simply crossing the road are several thousand times higher
Bring the troops home, it would be better if they were helping the police on our streets instead of being killed at will on the the streets of Basra.
I must ask too if there is any place for islam in our society.
We could start by ostracising ruck sack wearers and suitcase wheelers.
Why did Labour grant Rushdie his knighthood? Seemed a stupid idea. Did Blair decide to stir the hornet's nest to pass over as much trouble as possible to his successor?
It's time people/our Govt read their serious history books and I suggest starting with Prof B Lewis's book on The Assassins. Contrary to belief, the assassins were not high on hashish, they developed from the Islamic Ismaili sect, and they had clear but appallingly extreme sectarian views.
Their reign of murderous disruption lasted for some 300 years, and appears to have imploded from within rather than succumbing to any outside force, persuasion or diplomacy. However, their objective was destruction of other Islamic movements, rather than Christian or Jewish populations.
I suspect that neither placation nor a hideous closedown of personal freedoms, nor indeed ridicule, will work. However, rigorous border controls must be introduced, and British Muslims spending frequent and lengthy periods in Pakistan or Afghanistan must be investigated.
Finally, the British Govt must, albeit very belatedly, say to all immigrants 'do not bite the hand that feeds you; if conditions do not suit you in the UK, you are free to emigrate to countries where the conditions are more amenable to your mindset'.
Bring the troops home, it would be better if they were helping the police on our streets
How droll - setting up roadblocks no doubt as in Northern Ireland.....you are potty
If the Germans can stop Tom Cruise filming because he's a Scientologist
They have NOT stopped Tom Cruise filming in Germany - they have REFUSED him permission to use German Government property such as The Bendleblock in Berlin where Graf von Stauffenberg was executed in 1944
i've been watching 24 hour news all day, .
Sad. Sad. Sad.
We should reintroduce the concept of attainder whereby persons convicted of terrorist offences forfeit their property and civil rights such as citizenship, right to vote & co. It could be extended to cover their families. If they faced losing their property because of the activities of their children, parents would keep them on a rather tighter rein.
Does it cross Verity's mind that what she is proposing is exactly the type of reaction that the Islamofacists (and I have no problem with that label) want to promote.
History shows that you don't fight facism with facism - although it doesn't mean that you can carry on as before and some liberties don't have to be given up - those who think that they can fight facism with purity are living just as much in a dream world as Verity.
One thing I disagree with, the BBC is not a target.
Why would they attack the biggest supporter next to the labour party of mass immigration and multiculturalism.
Religious fanatics, whether Muslims, Chassids or BornAgain Christians, are not in pursuit of multiculturalism, they are in pursuit of monoculturalism - their beliefs must reign supreme.
Have you read today of the CofE Bishop who believes the current floods are God's retribution for pro-gay legislation?
So Iain, it isn't having houses built on flood plains that cause everyone such misery, it's all your fault!
Excellent comment on the BBC paper review about the lack of coverage of the heroics of the emergency services and public who tackled the devices and bombers.
CCTV said...
Bring the troops home, it would be better if they were helping the police on our streets
How droll - setting up roadblocks no doubt as in Northern Ireland.....you are potty
July 01, 2007 8:31 AM
I'd be content if they were simply helping police look inside rucksacks at tubestations for a start - is that potty too?
I see Iain has Melanie Phillips posting on his blog - only she chooses to call herself "Verity".
"Muslims in this country are not "innocent". "
Balls.
"Their stated aim, and it is a majority stated aim, is to overthrow our way of life."
Those that do have that right, just like, say, Christian voice, who want to once again make homosexual relationships banned or to ban abortion. Are all Christians guilty on that basis then of wanting to overturn our way of life? Shall we lock up the churches? Round 'em up?
So when are we going to hear from Mrs Smith?
Even Hazel Blears has had more to say on the so called bombings.
I'm surprised the Glaswegian taxi driver who punched one of the islamic terrorists wasn't arrested by the police and charge with racially aggravated assault.
As for Brown, the guy was definitely sedated, I've seen enough people doped up on tranquilisers to spot all the signs.
"Londonistan"
Listening to Gordon Brown this morning it is a speech more appropriate to post 9/11 days... setting out policies that would have been correct at that time....Now it appears as just waffle, flannel & spin..inc' that old chestnut "Winning Hearts & Minds"....gives me no confidence in the WAR on the UK we have/are experiencing now. When he talks about a little /small minority of Muslims that are fanaticised by Al Queda(sic) elements...he talks rubbish.The relaxed attitude of past years earned us the title of "Londonistan" . We are told that there are upwards of 2000 fanatics & a bigger minority a poll suggested 50% of Muslims supported 7/7!!!. This is not the IRA....these people want to die for their beliefs, suicide bombers! So let us forget Ms Chakrabarti & her libertine policies,derogate from the European Human rights ,hold for 90 days, dump the control orders, imprison for as long as necessary without evidence, deport as necessary.... bring in interment!, whatever it takes.Weasel words from our Government are not good enough.
I'm with Verity and the others who have been been pathetically labelled as 'fascist' by the lefty trolls on here. Seperate Church and State, no faith schools of any kind, no burghas, no rows of rings and bangles, kick the Human Rights nonsense into touch, establish proper secure borders (with or without uniforms in pastel shades) build more prisons and lots and lots of deportations. If you don't like here, F*** OFF! Go back to your third world slums and stay there!
Don't get too paranoid.
It is very hard to make a home-made bomb. Bombs have to possess the contradictory characteristics of not exploding when you don't want them to, and exploding when you do wish them to. Until the advent of plastic explosive, they were unstable and very bulky things with little bang proportionate to their size.
If the murderers are having to resort to home-made stuff, it is because they can't get commercial plastic type stuff. This is good news and evidence that the police etc are doing their job.
If the murderers are having to cram propane cylinders into a car, this is also good news. They do not have the capability of making potent explosives that are man-portable.
They do not possess the technical skill of the IRA, probably the best in the world until the recent crop of bomb-makers started plying their evil trade in Iraq/Iran - with hundreds of tonnes of military grade explosive to play with.
Be wary but not afraid.
ranter, you say no faith schools. Why should this country give up Church of England schools, the majority of which offer an excellent education and after all, we are supposed to be a Christian state with the Queen as head of state.
Lets keep a sense of proportion. Each week about 70 people die on the roads which is more than have happened IN TOTAL in Britain since 9/11 so I think saying keep out of London is a massive overreaction.
To rock my own hobby horse - with 24,000 pensioners dying each year because of fuel poverty, which could be solved if we went for nuclear power at half the price (PC windmills cost double), I wish that politicians of all parties cared as much for these 450 weekly avoidable deaths.
Spot on Iain.
Thank heavens this lot weren't in charge during the IRA bombings of mainland Britain. We'd be living in a police state by now.
It's all about being seen to do things, covering the bases for party political reasons.
Being prepared for "Further Attacks" is all very well, but you don't hear much about the "Previous possibly-not-an-attack -but-blew-up-three-cars anyway" incident, eh? The day before the car bombs? Seriously, not meaning to get all tinfoil hat on you, but that's just weird, especially with the travel industry angle. Weird.
REALLY WEIRD.
"Winning Hearts and Minds"
=
let a few more of their first cousins in then they'll vote for me, not Respect.
I always amazed to hear that an average MP spends 60% of his "constituency" time on immigration issues.
ie working out ways to "appeal" the immigration rules, and hopefully obtain the goodwill and votes of increasing numbers of that particular group in his/her constituency.
This short termism, built into our governmental system combined with short termism in the MSM which means they won't allow discussion of the issue WILL be the end of us.
We are really are standing on the Shoulders of Giants, and the MSM believe that its our "niceness" that got us here.
Am I the only person who is getting a bit fed up with all this? A few half baked (ha ha) idiots using garden implements and DIY equipment try to set fire to a couple of cars and you'd think world war three was breaking out. Most annoying are the "security experts" that are popping up all over the place stating the bleeding obvious. Sky News has got some bloke dressed up like a 1920's gangster droning on about mobile phones. I suppose at least he looks amusing but the rest of them seem a very dreary bunch.
I wrote to Sky News and asked them if they could get the gangster security expert to carry a violin case as I thought it might cheer people up during these testing times. I also asked them to see if they could persuade him to call the terrorists "Dirty Rats" just to add to the carnival atmosphere. No response thus far but I am waiting with a keen sense of anticipation for his next appearance.
Simon 2.15
The "strange" media coverage is down to one thing:
they are self-censoring the real story - that multiculturalism doesn't work when one culture is fundamentally intolerant of the other.
High levels of immigration from intolerant countries can only continue if we import their intolerant police state laws.
The Elephant in the room is styfling rational thought and debate. The MSM can offer only one platitude: that if WE become more tolerant this will cure THEIR intolerance.
Oddly enough our secular media is advocating extreme Christianity (without realizing it) in response: Pacifism!
Tory Boys Never Grow up is a Muslim and argues from their point of view. He also comes out with streams of ignorance about his host country. He thinks women were banned from worshipping in churches "not so long ago" - to excuse the fact that islamic women are shuffled into different areas of mosques to pray - and in some cases cannot enter mosques.
You never told me which churches you'd seen signs that women have to pray in a different area of Christian churches, TBNGU. You've had a good couple of months to research it.
Judith - if it is the same Judith - WELCOME BACK! Judith - if it is the same one - is an authoritative and knowledgeable voice on this subject.
Re Tom Cruise and Scientology, I have said many times that islam needs to be declassified as a religion and reclassified as a dangerous cult. That is why I say that mohammad was the L Ron Hubbard of his time.
Judith is correct when she notes that multiculturalism, so passionately beloved by Blair, al-Beeb and rabid lefties everywhere, is definitely not what the islamics want. They want a monoculture. Theirs.
Tone Made Me Do It - I like your final point! Speaking of which, I do not think we should close all faith schools. Christianity, the religion of the country - both Catholic and CofE, should continue to have the privilege of having faith schools as Christianity has been the bedrock of the development of our country and W Europe. [Rabid atheists: we will take your oft-rehearsed points as read] Also, schools for Jewish children to learn through the Jewish tradition are to be valued for their contributions to our country.
We have to start shovelling the islamics out. Those who want to stay should be required to post a very large bond before we'll even think about it.
Realist: I liked your points about this fellow's medical treatment. The fellow who hit him while he was on fire in Glasgow Airport deserves an MBE.
"Also, schools for Jewish children to learn through the Jewish tradition are to be valued for their contributions to our country."
No, fair's fair. If Islamic faith schools are to be closed. Jewish schools should also be closed.
Anonymous 3:47 - Why? Given what the Jews have contributed to Britain and the world in the way of the arts, medicine, the sciences and charitable activities like funding museums, how on earth can you try to draw an equivalency with a culture that worships ignorance and applauds violence against a host culture?
Your statement is beyond absurd.
The Jewish faith is part of our society. Live with it or go and live in exciting, creative, ultra modern Pakistan.
Have read all these comments, and agree with many of them, particularly about property rights being abrogated for those who are married to terrorists (think about it).
I just have one question.
Which Muslim Immams or organisations deplored the latest attempted terrorists attacks ?
Interesting, that......
Yes, Verity, 'tis I, the REAL Judith! I'm certainly no expert, but I've been making it my business to read about Islam and its history over the past few years, just as I have read about the history of Christianity and Judaism for many decades.
I keep wishing that instead of jumping to facile conclusions, everyone, but especially politicians, could look at the bigger picture and historical precedents - sorry about the cliches!
Judith, your remarks are effectively 'approval' for what Muslim extremists are doing in our country.
We all know the history, we all know what went on. The devil is NOT in the detail.
How could you possibly imply that because of previous historical events, Muslims in the UK are to be absolved from criminal offences of the most heinous kind in the UK today ? IS that what you are saying ? It seems to me you are.
And in case you were wondering, Osama Bin Laden could have won a world publicity coup had he admitted the 9/11 attacks were related to the perceived injustice in Palestine and the Israeli takeover of that land.
But that was not his bag. It was hatred of the West and Christianity which was.
What is then you are saying ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QK5-jIfOBjQ
Former CIA officer putting the Tiger Tiger non-bomb into perspective.
'(Larry) what happens if you actually manage to spark this device?'
'It's going to do a lot of damage to the interior of the Mercedes'.
Quite.
So not '100s could have been killed and injured' as my (and everyone else's) paper had it.
'You wouldn't want to be in the car when it happenened but if somebody was within 20 or 30 feet of it they would have ear damage and not much more'
And not as John Stevens suggested 'The tactics of Baghdad or Bali'.
It is absolutely shocking to me how much our new spin-free government has hyped this up along with the media. Even I, who know nothing about explosives, could see that the nails and sundry shrapnel, rather than causing 'carnage' would just have sat where they were if the gasca nisters had gone up.
"The Jewish faith is part of our society. Live with it or go and live in exciting, creative, ultra modern Pakistan."
Thank you, but since I have relatives who died in both world wars, I think I have the right to live here rather than Pakistan.
Do you actually have any relatives who have died serving this country, and as a matter of interest what have you done for Britain, apart from going to live in Mexico?
Anonymous 5:42 - Those members of your family who died in the war (God rest their souls) died to keep Britain free - and that also includes freedom of religion.
You must understand that islam does not tolerate freedom of religion, and that this belief system regard anyone who doesn't acknowledge their allah as a non-human with a non-soul. The islamofascists are as dangerous as the original fascists whom your forebears fought to keep out of Britain. Indeed, in some respects, they're more dangerous, because they are here among us.
Gengis Pinko - That is not what Judith is saying at all. She is no friend of islam. But she is more than capable of speaking for herself and doesn't need me.
Verity, I'm afraid I'm not prepared to take lessons from you on what my forebears died for.
anonymous 6:19 - I thought WWII was to keep Britain free, but if you believe differently, that is your privilege.
The British government has tried to lull the British into a false sense of security regarding islam. It is a dangerous, intolerant, vicious belief system and it has been allowed to put down roots in Britain.
There needs to be an almighty upheaval in public attitudes - by which I mean, our politicians, especially those who are dependent on islamic "postal voting" for their sinecures must stop referring to islam as "a religion of peace". It is not. Were it so, we would get imams and "community leaders" condemning, but they don't. They are, in fact, curiously quiet.
And they should stop referring to it as a religion and start referring to it as a "belief system".
They should stop referring to this garbage about "the Ibrahimic tradition". It is not. This warrior cult has no connection to Judaism or Christianity. They do believe that Jesus Christ was a prophet, but they believe as a prophet for islam.
Verity
I am not a Muslim - I replied to your question about segregated churches in Christian churches on the thread at the time (i even gave you a link to a picture of a Romanian othodox church where it stills happen)- go back and have a look and then apologise!
Verity
So as to aid your apology the post can be found at http://iaindale.blogspot.com/2007/05/dave-goes-to-birmingham.html
I didn't see your link; I never went back to that thread. But you argued that enlightened Western European Christianity had at one time banned women from worshipping with men, and even had separate areas of churches where they were allowed to worship.
This was, and still is, balderdash.
You must have had a long,feverish search to finally turn up some god-foresaken area in Eastern Europe - an area influenced, leave us not forget, by islam - where women are second class human beings.
I recall that you said there were churches in Britain where there were special chapels where women had to worship! When I said 'name one', you couldn't. You had to go all the way to bizarre Romania in Eastern Europe!
Also,from the way you argued at UK Commentators, I still think you are a muslim. You may have been born here, but you are curiously un-au fait with British history and British traditions and British religion.
Perhaps before you make accusations that I did not reply to your requests you should check the thread concerned - where else should I reply? BTW the reply was made within 3 hours of your post and after c10 minutes of research!
Also if you had the good grace to read the original thread - my claims were never made about "enlightened Western European Christianity" or "British churches". Perhaps another apology is now due for misquoting me!
I do find it interesting however that you now appear to be distinguishing between enlightened and unenlightened brands of Christianity - but you continually fail to acknowledge that any such split in Islam may be possible.
Personally, I'm in the Christopher Hitchens camp when it comes to religion and how we should deal with Islamofascism - but as I said before the correct response to fascism is something else other than fascism.
And whatever you may say I'm not a Moslem - most of ancestors going back 200+ years have been CofE or methodist and I've lived in this country for most of my live - although I have had spells abroad.
BTW - perhaps while you are thinking of apologising you might find the attached definition of a bigot (from Wikipedia) interesting? Seems quite apt - obviously an enlightened Western Christian concept!
"A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from his or her own.
The origin of the word bigot in English dates back to at least 1598, via Middle French, and started with the sense of "religious hypocrite", especially a woman. Bigot is often used as a pejorative term against a person who is obstinately devoted to prejudices even when these views are challenged or proven to be false."
Clearly, when I asked you to name one church where women and men had to pray separately, when you made this extraordinary claim, I meant in Britain or Western Europe. Who knows the type of Christianity - probably influenced by islam - they employ in Romania, for God's sake! Obviously, I was talking about our society, enlightened, Christian, Western Europe - not some dingbat country in the east.
Knowing I was referring to Britain, you certainly had to go a long way to try to prove your point! You said there were churches in England where the women had had to pray in separate chapels and that these chapels exist even today. I challenged you to name one such, and you came back with something from Romania?
Also, the first example you gave, when challenged, was the weird 19thC American sect, the Shakers, who died out in around 1880 You used a briefly-lived American sect far, far from mainstream Christianity in pioneer times to represent enlightened Christianity. Why not mention Jim Jones and Guyana to prove that Kool-Aid has Christian religious significance?
This tells me you don't know what you're talking about. You said it took you only 10 minutes of research to come up with Romania. You had to research it? You made your assertion without even knowing if you could turn up an example?
I was referring to England and you knew that.
The word 'bigot' comes from Old French and was an insult the French applied to the Normans. I'll take Partridge over Wikipedia, thanks.
"Most" of your ancestors were CofE or Methodist. What were the others?
Sorry. You're evasive and your arguments are sidling and not straightforward. Sounds like taqyya to me and I still think you're a muslim.
Verity
Anyone who wants to can go and read what you and I said - I never made any claim about English churches and you never made any reference to England in your arguments. The Orthodox Church is part of the "broad formal Christian church" whether you like it or not. You also avoided my point that other religions e.g Judaism - segregate sexes - despite you doubting that this happened. I never at any point tried to say that there was equivalence between Islam or other religions in that practice - my point was that most religions have undertaken bigoted practice at some time so intolerance of all believers in a particular religion is unlikely to improve matters.
The point about the Shakers is because I've seen former Shaker villages with my own eyes - together with segregation in the Orthodox church in Russia. I didn't need to research that. I try to avoid making assertions unless I know them to be true (although I will admit my memory can fail me - and sometimes what I say will prove not to be the whole truth) - I suggest you try the same sometimes.
Quite frankly - I don't know the religion of all of my relatives - but I'm not aware of any Moslems - although I do have Moslem friends (and I know bigots will say that they cannot have friends who are not Moslem - but perhaps they can keep their opinions to themselves).
Perhaps before you start criticising people you should have the grace to read what they and yourself have said in the past - bigot is as bigot does.
I haven't a clue what taqyya means - and I don't know who you were talking to on UK Commentators whatever that is.
I don't want to be evasive (I don't think that I'm the type that avoids an argument) - but unless you've anything constructive to add, I suspect this debate has reached its natural end.
Tory Boys Never Grow up - I didn't answer your arguments about Jewish worship because I'm not Jewish and would not be so impertinent as to take up the gauntlet on their behalf and go thrashing around in an area I know nothing about.
I'm not going to rehearse the arguments again and this discussion is indeed closed. But your trying to equate the weird and short-lived sect of Shakers with mainstream Christianity in order to justify your assertion that Christian churches also segregated the sexes "in the not too distant past" gave me a clue. S-t-r-e-t-c-h-i-n-g it signals desperation.
Have just come home to discover I am being accused of condoning Islamic violence in the UK! Wow, as misreadings go, that's a cracker.
It's late, but let's try a brief explanation of my view:
Islam (not unlike other religions) has a history of extreme internecine violence. Unlike other religions, the Ismaili sect, via the Assassins, took the route of killing individuals rather than routinely slaying every member of an enemy sect (please excuse simplification here - I'm covering 300 yrs in a few paras). Generally, the slaying was done solely for religious motives, not as a cover for gaining material power, and it was done extremely skillfully.
My point in explaining this is to suggest that 'winning hearts and minds' or 'eliminating poverty and unemployment in disaffected Muslim areas' will solve the problem displays massive ignorance.
Bin Laden doesn't commit terrorist offences because he's poor or unloved - he comes from a very wealthy Saudi family. He is a Wahabi fanatic, and all the diplomacy in the world will not sway him or his lunatic followers and imitators that he is wrong.
The problem, dare I opine, is not so much with religion, as with allowing religious believers to think they are more important than the rest of us, and that they should therefore be treated with 'respect'.
And now it is late, and I'm going to bed, and we can have this argument tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow ......
Welcome back, Judith! - whose clarity of thought, and whose knowledge of islam, can serve to inform.
I agree that the passé "hearts and minds" meme is not only outdated, but could never have applied to islam, even when it was fresh. Nor can "eliminating poverty".
That's not the point.
Conquest is the point - by the sword on the back of the neck, the gun or the bomb, if that's what it takes.
Also, Iraq's not the issue - other than that they don't want a democratic pluralistic society in the ME. Those jihadis at Glasgow Airport were just two stupid little self-glorifiers. (Special thanks to the taxi driver - ex-military - who had just dropped passengers off, witnessed the event and ran inside the terminal to help. He encountered the jihadi who was staggering around seriously on fire, and went over and hit him! This is the correct procedure.
We, the owners of the country are in charge; not you.
This taxi driver, after felling Mr On-Fire Guy,immediately got other male passengers to help him shepherd people away, in case the car exploded.
Everyone seems to have thought the burning jihadi was toast.
Apparently he's in intensive care in a British hospital being paid for out of the salaries of the British people whose society he tried to destroy.
Why?
Oh, just don't answer Verity, who knows nothing about anything.
Segregation of the sexes has been and is practised perfectly normally within Catholicism, Orthodoxy and Protestantism alike, for a variety of reasons, and without anything to do with Islam. I'm not saying that that's a good thing or a bad thing. But it is a fact.
"Romanian Orthodoxy is influenced by Islam"? I ask you! And don't bother replying, Verity, because I'm not going to engage. The grown ups have matters to discuss.
For, a while ago, I accused Verity of being either a pub bore or a pubescent boy, if not both. "She" denied being a pub bore, saying that "she" had been in a pub only a handful of times in "her" life. However, "she" passed no comment about being a pubescent boy (and thus, presumably, unable to gain admission to, or at least service in, a pub).
Read over any of "her" effusions, and it all makes sense. And no, dear boy, you needn't bother answering that, either. You stand exposed. Not a happy way for a pubescent boy to stand.
Anyway, to business. Those "suspects" don't look very Pakistani to me. They look decidedly White British. And why not? For there is, of course, an Islamic threat to Europe, but it is the threat that people disgusted with the complete collapse of all moral standards in the personal, social and economic spheres, and left helpless by the closely connected, almost total loss of collective cultural memory, will convert to Islam in droves. The first signs of this are already upon us, closely resembling the early stages of the past Islamisation of various other parts of the world.
We should be worrying about that, the real Islamic threat: we should be restoring our personal, social and economic moral standards by rediscovering our collective cultural memory. Unless, that is, we want rich men to be allowed to have four wives (and to make a point of it, as a status symbol), we want women to go around shrouded and flapping about like giant bats, we want to cut off thieves' hands, and so on.
Look at the mosques full of disaffected young men in Afro-Caribbean areas, and at the flourishing Student Islamic Societies full of white, middle-class, deep-thinking, and often female seekers after something more than our own dominant decadence and hedonism. And who can blame them? Grinding poverty, chronic ill health with nothing really done about it even though our society could easily afford to do something, collapsing educational standards, war after war after war, further money to be wasted on obscene nuclear weapons, drugs, drunkenness (I'm no teetotaller, but that's not the same thing at all), sexual promiscuity, pornography in newsagents (they're made to have it by the distributors), a nation of gambling addicts, and on, and on, and on. All these things (and many, many more) are obviously connected.
So there will be an Islamic Europe probably by 2100, and certainly by 2150, unless we turn away from our own social and economic irresponsibility, which we can only do by rediscovering the things that we had to give up in order to turn that way in the first place. Otherwise, more and more disaffected youths and deep-thinking young (often female) intellectuals will turn to Islam.
In comparable ways did many another country begin to be Islamised. Who'd have thought that present-day Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh and much of Northern India could be Islamised? Who'd have thought that much of black Africa could be Islamised (very much an ongoing process)? Who'd have thought that Central Asia and much of western China could be Islamised? Who'd even have thought that much of the Levant could be Islamised? No one, once upon a time. But how did it happen? And how quickly?
Imagine if only the White British Muslim population (already well over sixty thousand) grew by an improbably small fifty per cent every ten years: by 2100, there would be over a million of them. Now imagine that it grew by a possibly over-large, but nevertheless much more realistic, one hundred per cent every ten years: by 2100, there would be nearly 23 million of them.
The truth is somewhere in the middle, but much closer to the latter figure than to the former given both the rapidly rising rate of conversions, and the birth rate to converts (including the all but legalised practice of polygamy: the benefit system now pays out specifically for polygamous partners). Yet that's just the White British section of British Muslims, a small minority of the total.
And then consider that the "mainstream" birth rate has now been well below replacement level for two generations, with no sign that this trend is ever going to be reversed. Comparable patterns are observable, and indeed well-documented, right across Europe. Who needs to blow up airports? Eurabia, and Amerabia (well on the way), here we come!
We can stop it. But will we?
All Muslims are missionaries, in the way that all Christians are supposed to be missionaries. And the former are proving very effective missionaries in Britain and Europe at present. They expect some White Britons and their equivalents elsewhere to convert, and that is indeed happening with some rapidity.
But mostly, like everyone else, they just expect those population groups to all but die out during the twenty-first century, leaving few people except Muslims in Western Europe, all without anyone's having needed to be either converted or killed. That, too, is well under way.
Criticising or mocking Islam would already be illegal if Hilary Armstrong hadn't mistakenly sent Tony Blair home that night. Ten years ago, would you have believed that? Or that well over sixty thousand Muslims (and rising rapidly) would be classified as White British?
Consider that rate of growth by conversion, as well as Muslims' much higher birth rate than (currently) mainstream Western Europeans', including the widespread semi-clandestine practice of polygamy. How many do you think that there will be in another ten years? Or twenty? Or thirty? Or forty? But such is in keeping with the global history of Islam.
And consider the Danish cartoon row. Did you know that there were Muslims in Denmark? There was never a Danish Empire, so where did they come from? Yet they are there, and they are certainly making their presence felt, as Muslims are throughout North-West Eurabia. Get used to it.
Or do something about it.
David Lindsay, you say: Segregation of the sexes has been and is practised perfectly normally within Catholicism, Orthodoxy and Protestantism alike, for a variety of reasons, and without anything to do with Islam.
Prove it. I say, in Christianity, never.
The rest of you post is interesting, well-reasoned and well-informed. I find nothing to disagree with.
Muslims in our countries are not 'immigrants' but miltants behind the enemy lines.
So, shovel them out with much vigour. Blair arranged that they should flood in. Now they should flood out.
Verity, you're a fascist. Substiture Jews for Muslims and you're all set.
The thing is, after his rubber-stamping of the illegal Iraq invasion, "Lord" Goldsmith has more blood on his hands than all of the terrorists in this country put together, and I don't believe he's a Muslim.
On BBC's "Breakfast Prog'" today, Melanie Phillips pragmatically articulated what needs to be done to fight/challenge the Islamic Fundamentalists mindsets. The Asian guest agreed with heron most issues.
Commonness! but will the Government listen?
"verity said...
David Lindsay, you say: Segregation of the sexes has been and is practised perfectly normally within Catholicism, Orthodoxy and Protestantism alike, for a variety of reasons, and without anything to do with Islam.
Prove it. I say, in Christianity, never."
As I said: not a clue. Interesting that "she" finds nothing to disagree with in any of the rest of my post, including "her" outing as in fact a pubescent boy.
"Shoevl them out" to where, when they're not immigrants, or even the children or grandchildren of immigrants?
But I promised not to respond, didn't I?
Anonymous 8:14- Why do you draw a parallel between Jews and islamics? This is curious, to say the least as the two religions have absolutely nothing in common.
For starters, the Jews don't think they have a mission to force everyone in the world, at the point of a sword or a bomb, to become Jewish. In fact, they actively discourage converts. They are the least proselytising religion on the planet.
They have advanced the human race through their contributions to science, medicine, music, literature and all the humanities, such as funding museums and art galleries.
Explain, if you can, why you draw a comparison with primitive members of a warrior cult who destroy art, wreck statues, who have no literary tradition, who have never invented anything in their long history (no; they didn't invent zero; the Indians did and the concept passed through the Middle East as it travelled to the West); they have no art - except some nice Persian miniatures, but that isn't much of a corpus of work to show for hundreds of years, and even then, that's the Iranians, who are smarter; whose history comprises nothing but bullying and conquest. They don't even have any literature. Their "religion" (sic) allows them to marry up to four women, for breeding warriors; women have to be kept hidden away - in the house or only allowed out in voluminous bin liners, accompanied by a male, even if it's only a little boy - for some bizarre reason that the rest of the entire human race has never been able to figure out and their boss married a little girl of six. He was 53 at the time. In the West, even at the time, such an interest in a child would have draw the strongest possible - i.e., incarceration - disapproval.
Finally, the islamics don't believe you have a soul. You are doomed to hell unless you accept their bonkers cult. They believe the entire human race was born islamic and you chose to opt out, thus becoming an apostate at birth! Apostates attract the death penalty. You can only regain your human status by "rejoining islam". That is why converts are never referred to as converts in islam. They are called "reverts".
How dare you suggest that I "substitute Jews for islamics"? What's worse, I don't think you even had any intention to insult Judaism. It's just that you are a poorly informed, ill-educated, provincial, rather silly individual.
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